God Exists

[C RAVI]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

I feel the thread is God Exists so anything can be debated here after all Love and Attachment is always the main topic in Religion too.
God is All and All is God so I feel we havent deviated.

Offcourse we have not deviated broadly...

Just wanted to get back to the core subject mater of proving the existence of GOD (though I know its only personal experience), to the atheists..

 

[sravna]

Dear Ravi,

I think there is a need for a pause now. The time is more suitable for lighter threads. Does Siva have any other interesting topic handy?

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

I think there is a need for a pause now. The time is more suitable for lighter threads. Does Siva have any other interesting topic handy?

Shri Sravna,

Shri Haridasa Siva is much active in other threads - 1) "Sachin Tendulkar and Hero Worship" and 2) "Women in d(u)ress?"

 

[Brahin]

Sri Sravna,

We seem to have deviated from the thread topic...

Do we have anything more to discuss on the same line? Like, if God exists? How to present the case in favor, in a different angle for the atheists? etc...

Dear ravi this thread started from simple story so i have another story for u.......The following story attempts to prove the existence of God. It allegedly records a conversation between a humble, God-believing student and an arrogant Atheistic university professor.

​

Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?[/h]A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color.

You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's Inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name - Albert Einstein

 

[sravna]

Dear Ravi,

People basically are divided in to two categories. i) Those who trust their mind 2) those who trust their eyes. So even to the so called rationalists logic doesn't work because it is after all a product of mind. They really trust only what they see, feel, hear etc. So the only possible way for them to believe that God exits is physical evidence of God. He has to establish his supernatural powers conclusively.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

People basically are divided in to two categories. i) Those who trust their mind 2) those who trust their eyes. So even to the so called rationalists logic doesn't work because it is after all a product of mind. They really trust only what they see, feel, hear etc. So the only possible way for them to believe that God exits is physical evidence of God. He has to establish his supernatural powers conclusively.

Yes...And they don't want to believe that mind-soul is the inter-related force that can see subtly beyond the vision of the eyes and carries the potential of invoking higher realizations through belief and meditation.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Amala,

Excesses are definitely not good irrespective of whether it is a good thing or the bad thing. .

sh.sravana, i wish to you have your outlook on this.

i slightly rephrase your word without altering the context.. excess of being good is not good? or you suggest to take a middle path even if its good?


some one who donates excess, loves his family, and also goes excess to love the whole villagers, and take care of them.. though its excess in his limits, but he drives that extra mile, manages, equally ensures all are happy, including his family .. in the process, he might have missed to save a billion dollar for his children and grand children, but he gave all the love to the folks, family, and villagers, in excess.

will that excess be a problem..

my content here is, any thing in GOOD being excess is EXTRA GOOD, and good is always what we look for...

caution: im trying to connect this analogy with god.. is there any thing wrong in some one being is so much obsessed with god,and rituals, and will you call it falling short of middle path? did god and his rituals, tells us to give a middle path importance to HIM too.. after all, we are told to give Ultimate importance to god!

ஆதி பகவான் முதற்றே உலகு ...... NOT NOT NOT... ஆதி பகவான் நடுவில் உலகு ..

this neutrality of few members (like amala's post) is what atheists are scanning for with telescopic eyes... while taking the middle path, its easy for any one to fall prey to atheism, blindly.



frankly, im looking for an opposite view, which proves me wrong..

 

[C RAVI]

sh.sravana, i wish to you have your outlook on this.

i slightly rephrase your word without altering the context.. excess of being good is not good? or you suggest to take a middle path even if its good?


some one who donates excess, loves his family, and also goes excess to love the whole villagers, and take care of them.. though its excess in his limits, but he drives that extra mile, manages, equally ensures all are happy, including his family .. in the process, he might have missed to save a billion dollar for his children and grand children, but he gave all the love to the folks, family, and villagers, in excess.

will that excess be a problem..

my content here is, any thing in GOOD being excess is EXTRA GOOD, and good is always what we look for...

caution: im trying to connect this analogy with god.. is there any thing wrong in some one being is so much obsessed with god,and rituals, and will you call it falling short of middle path? did god and his rituals, tells us to give a middle path importance to HIM too.. after all, we are told to give Ultimate importance to god!

ஆதி பகவான் முதற்றே உலகு ...... NOT NOT NOT... ஆதி பகவான் நடுவில் உலகு ..

this neutrality of few members (like amala's post) is what atheists are scanning for with telescopic eyes... while taking the middle path, its easy for any one to fall prey to atheism, blindly.



frankly, im looking for an opposite view, which proves me wrong..

As far as I am concerned, I am holding a typical view as that of yours......

May be too much attachement to do good for one's family and society is considered hazardeous in terms of heartattack to a person doing so, when he/she doesn't get the credit of doing.

That's why I have indicated in my other posts that, one should not be concerned of the returns and should learn to just do good with full attachment but complete detachment from expectations in return. If you get its fine, if you don't get, still continue with our righteousness with a big smile in your visible face and huge heart hidden in your body.

This is basically not easy to achieve. But there is nothing called impossible. Do to the extent possible and rest assured of peace of mind, happyness.

Believe in God whole heartedly, without doing prayers and visiting temples, just because others are doing and we need some good results out of it, be in meditaion to realize your inner self and the supreme power and get on with our optimistic attitude, doesn't matter how strongly you attach your emotions and commitments with the people surrounding you.

 

[sravna]

sh.sravana, i wish to you have your outlook on this.

i slightly rephrase your word without altering the context.. excess of being good is not good? or you suggest to take a middle path even if its good?


some one who donates excess, loves his family, and also goes excess to love the whole villagers, and take care of them.. though its excess in his limits, but he drives that extra mile, manages, equally ensures all are happy, including his family .. in the process, he might have missed to save a billion dollar for his children and grand children, but he gave all the love to the folks, family, and villagers, in excess.

will that excess be a problem..

my content here is, any thing in GOOD being excess is EXTRA GOOD, and good is always what we look for...

caution: im trying to connect this analogy with god.. is there any thing wrong in some one being is so much obsessed with god,and rituals, and will you call it falling short of middle path? did god and his rituals, tells us to give a middle path importance to HIM too.. after all, we are told to give Ultimate importance to god!

ஆதி பகவான் முதற்றே உலகு ...... NOT NOT NOT... ஆதி பகவான் நடுவில் உலகு ..

this neutrality of few members (like amala's post) is what atheists are scanning for with telescopic eyes... while taking the middle path, its easy for any one to fall prey to atheism, blindly.



frankly, im looking for an opposite view, which proves me wrong..

Dear Shiv,

Each one seems to be using the word middle path in a sense different from another! I think Amala's use of the term is something like holding a neutral view regarding the existence of God. Other than Amala, Ravi and Renuka used that term. I have to go back to those posts to understand what sense they used the word.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, my use of the term is closer to the concept of selflessness in hinduism. I actually see where the confusion comes from. You have the concept of egoism and selflessness in hinduism. So when people see the term middle path they might think it is something between selfishness and selflessness.

But I think middle path is more rightly identified with selflessness because only when you become selfless you act solely on principles and not on any other basis. The middle path advocated in buddhism preaches similar thinking and behavior.

Also by selflessness when you care only for dharma, wouldn't allow for excess behavior too. I am talking of things like emotional attachment which you cannot or find it difficult to give up. I think there is nothing like doing good in excess. When you do good you do them in accordance with dharma. When you are able to do it in accordance with the highest dharma you are following middle path or have become totally selfless and cannot do anything better.

The above is my take on middle path.

 

[C RAVI]

But I think middle path is more rightly identified with selflessness because only when you become selfless you act solely on principles and not on any other basis. The middle path advocated in buddhism preaches similar thinking and behavior.

The above is my take on middle path.

Sri Sravna,

I could understand and I fully agree with you..

But I have a little doubt and am unable to find the association of "Middle-Path" with the "level of emotioinal attachement" satisfactorily.

Isn't selflessness enough to stick to one's righteous principles and act fairly without considering any other basis, that can fetch some selfish desires?

"Middle-Path" is something that I associate with evaluating onself as what one's actions and reaction should be at a given situation, so as to not to deviate from the righteousness and selflessness, while dealing with two opposite extremes..

In that context, I could not associate the concept of "Middle-Path" to the "high level of attachment" you carry with the people surrounding you, for good things of life (Love/Care/Support).

When you have strong attachment with your family members and others in a positive manner, with selflessness and with righteous priniciples, in what sense "Middle-Path" need to be administered?

 

[Nara]

There is quite a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about selfishness and selflessness. Love is an emotion that is hard coded into the DNA of all living beings, from mother's love, from paramour's love, to the one that is universal.

A human mother's love for her children is a wonder no doubt, but is no more a wonder than the love of mothers in the animal kingdom -- some of these otherwise docile mothers become ferocious and even risk their lives trying to defend their offspring. For a sample click here.

At the root of all this altruistic behavior is the prime imperative of gene replication and survival. It is this "selfishness" of the gene that makes us instinctively behave in a selfless fashion in many situations.

Now, Richard Dawkins presents a compelling case for this theory in his book The Selfish Gene. This book is not about selfishness, neither does it promote selfishness, on the contrary, it is a book that attempts to explain why the altruism we see all around us makes perfect sense without having to make a supernatural entity up who will reward us if we are "good".

Also, you will find that this book does not contain anything like, "so it came to pass", and neither would you find Dawkins imploring one to meditate on Darwin and you will experience it.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shiv,

So when people see the term middle path they might think it is something between selfishness and selflessness.

But I think middle path is more rightly identified with selflessness because only when you become selfless you act solely on principles and not on any other basis. The middle path advocated in buddhism preaches similar thinking and behavior.
.

sh.sravana,

let me be clear, i dont want to draw lines on par with buddhism (just to win supports in the name of buddha),which rejects Iswara outright, but buddhism cant help it by rejecting karma, a copy cat from Dharma, to answer the queries of 'life after death' in the absence of iswara.. hope it makes clear.

what im asking here is, can we have a middle path attitude, eg, prayers towards god, by having half trust in god, by taking a middle path while doing pujas? lets not mix buddha with SD,which are poles apart.

 

[ShivKC]

But I think middle path is more rightly identified with selflessness because only when you become selfless you act solely on principles and not on any other basis. .

sh.sravana, in support of your view, i think English vocabs may not be supportive here..

i think, selfless and selfish are two poles apart terms(extremes), and none of them represent a middle path. i believe so, unless you could enlighten me with vocabs from the advanced lingua of Sanskrit/Tamil/Roman, which are believed to own the highest tone in expressing the human feelings..

 

[sravna]

Sri Sravna,

I could understand and I fully agree with you..

But I have a little doubt and am unable to find the association of "Middle-Path" with the "level of emotioinal attachement" satisfactorily.

Isn't selflessness enough to stick to one's righteous principles and act fairly without considering any other basis, that can fetch some selfish desires?

"Middle-Path" is something that I associate with evaluating onself as what one's actions and reaction should be at a given situation, so as to not to deviate from the righteousness and selflessness, while dealing with two opposite extremes..

In that context, I could not associate the concept of "Middle-Path" to the "high level of attachment" you carry with the people surrounding you, for good things of life (Love/Care/Support).

When you have strong attachment with your family members and others in a positive manner, with selflessness and with righteous priniciples, in what sense "Middle-Path" need to be administered?

Dear Ravi and Shiv,

Though I am not in concordance with many things that buddhism says I find some similarity of this concept of middle path with some of what is taught in Hinduism. BG very much stresses the importance of moderation. Only when you have this balance in everything you can be selfless. So being righteous, being duty bound, being selfless and taking a middle path I see more or less as equivalent concepts and if you can accomplish something being duty bound you can do the same thing by being any of the rest.

 

[sravna]

Now, Richard Dawkins presents a compelling case for this theory in his book The Selfish Gene. This book is not about selfishness, neither does it promote selfishness, on the contrary, it is a book that attempts to explain why the altruism we see all around us makes perfect sense without having to make a supernatural entity up who will reward us if we are "good".

Also, you will find that this book does not contain anything like, "so it came to pass", and neither would you find Dawkins imploring one to meditate on Darwin and you will experience it.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Dawkins explains altruism at a biological level. That doesn't preclude us from seeing the big picture and arriving at a more real explanation. What he explains is more the mechanics of the phenomenon.

 

[nachi naga]

Well... many have said that Nature is God... and now we hear that Science is God and all that..

Neither Nature nor Science expects any poojas, prayers and offerings from anybody!

Just junk them.. then Nature is God.... I will agree.

I am opposed to all the Man-made Gods manufactured (by men) in the Books of Vedas, Puranas, Bible, Koran, Torah etc.. they all expect rituals of prayers all day everyday!

That's what I hate, to tell you the truth.

rituals are nothing but practices to tame mind.its not an absolute neccessity but helps one acheivement to experiance the unlimited power of brahman.science teaches methodology,which in spiritual science we call as sadhana.siddhis are the mystical powers of such sadhanas.in every nano atomic sub particle god exists and we exist within god and god is the in dweller within us.the athma has a body as outer manifestation of its property.science is the biggest tool to know god for the present generation and the generations to come.

 

[Nara]

....Dawkins explains altruism at a biological level. That doesn't preclude us from seeing the big picture and arriving at a more real explanation. What he explains is more the mechanics of the phenomenon.

Sravna, all I wanted to do was to set the record straight about the misunderstanding and misinformation about selfishness and the source of altruism. Of course you are free to think there is a bigger picture and a more real explanation.

Cheers!

 

[amala]

Dear Ravi and Shiv,

Though I am not in concordance with many things that buddhism says I find some similarity of this concept of middle path with some of what is taught in Hinduism. BG very much stresses the importance of moderation. Only when you have this balance in everything you can be selfless. So being righteous, being duty bound, being selfless and taking a middle path I see more or less as equivalent concepts and if you can accomplish something being duty bound you can do the same thing by being any of the rest.

Exactly what Rekka and me have been saying all along. I think some people are reading too much into the word "middle path" and "moderation". My statement in an earlier post about moderation being the key was very very general.

 

[Nara]

I think some people are reading too much into the word "middle path" and "moderation". My statement in an earlier post about moderation being the key was very very general.

Dear Amala, I think I understand what you are saying, but it does leave a lot of ambiguity. IMO, this is because some the terminology is left ambiguous.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood, for you the middle path is to have faith in a benevolent and comforting god, one to whom you can turn to for solace, but not get too technical and practice, or try to practice, every last word of the scriptures to the extent of bringing grief to yourself and people around you. Given one is unable to break out of theism, this, IMO, is a sensible approach.

On the other hand, for the seriously religious people, to believe is to take the belief to its logical conclusion. Anything less, a "middle-path" is to doubt. If there is anything the religious fear, it is doubt. The inexorable destination of this kind of thinking is to believe in the literal truth of the scriptures. Anything less, a "middle-path", is no less blasphemous than the drivel of the atheists.

Let us look at an example. How can a Christian, one who is motivated by this kind of thinking and believes Jesus is the son of God and is the only savior, ignore Jesus's own words as described in the scriptures?

Matthew 10:34-39 declares that Jesus came not to bring peace on Earth, but a sword; to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

Jesus says in as plain a language as one can say, that he who loves his father or mother more than Jesus is not worthy of him; and he who loves son or daughter more than him is not worthy of him. And he who does not take his cross and follow him is not worthy of him.

Obviously, this is not a "middle way". But, organized religion can never be a "middle-path" as it demands blind faith of the religion lock, stock, and barrel. Vedic Brahminism is no exception, it is just as oppressive as other established religions.

To follow a middle-path, people of faith will have to reject organized religion and fashion a path on their own, starting from the religious tradition they are familiar with, and then shaping it to their own innate sense of fairness and compassion. The truly religious can never do that.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

A Comparative Study of the Middle Path in Eastern Religions


http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/divinelaws2.asp

 

[renuka]

Dear ShivKc,

You wrote:

this neutrality of few members (like amala's post) is what atheists are scanning for with telescopic eyes... while taking the middle path, its easy for any one to fall prey to atheism, blindly.

Let me give my honest opinion here.Amala did not deny the existence of God but it was just a query in her mind that despite the fact that she has Ishta Dev and does prayers she was wondering if she can really prove the existence of God.

I feel this question is a very important question that will come to the mind of any Bhakta who takes his/her religion seriously.
Its not being in a state of semi-denial but rather a query to go further.

Didn't Arjuna have all sorts of query in his mind and Lord Krishna cleared all his doubts when he had totally surrendered to Lord Krishna?

When a bhakta has a honest doubt he/she will be guided to the next step.
When we have faith Atheist dont really matter becos as far as I know I have not come across any Atheist "missionaries" going door to door preaching their new found "faith".
So Atheist are not really a threat but rather technically they do not "exists" as they do not exert an active direct effect and its all hear say without any evidence.
So we can safely leave them out of the picture.

Ok coming to any Query.If a Bhaktha starts with a Question "Is there God?"
We dont have to start worrying that he/she will have no faith but rather guide the individual to seek more.We should not tell them "dont ask just follow" cos that will only breed individuals with no understanding of religion and only then the risk of them falling out starts.

We Hindus have this habit sometimes where we dont like to answer honest questions and prefer just to follow without understanding.

I have coined my own terminology where I call it "Agriculture Syndrome".
"Agriculture Syndrome" is like all Cows happily eating grass and no Cow thought of asking why are we cows eating grass and if one cow decides to ask "Why do we eat grass?" all other cows drown him vocally in their MOOOOOOO.

I feel the Question "Is there God" is the starting point to any understanding.
Cos next questions will be "What is God"
Next will be "Who am I then"
and we will eventually find the answer as "Sah Aham(Soham)"

 

[ShivKC]

Atheist Bus Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[renuka]

Atheist Bus Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is really funny!!! But even then they used the word there is Probably No God.

 

[renuka]

Got this from another Forum by email;

God : Hello. Did you call me?
Me: Called you? No.. Who is this ?

God : This is GOD. I heard your prayers. So I thought I will chat.
Me: I do pray. Just makes me feel good. I am actually busy now. I am in the midst of something.

God : What are you busy at? Ants are busy too.
Me: Don't know. But I cant find free time. Life has become hectic. It's rush hour all the time.

God : Sure. Activity gets you busy. But productivity gets you results. Activity consumes time. Productivity frees it.
Me: I understand. But I still can't figure out. By the way, I was not expecting YOU to buzz me on instant messaging chat.

God : Well I wanted to resolve your fight for time, by giving you some clarity. In this net era, I wanted to reach you through the medium you are comfortable with.

Me: Tell me, why has life become complicated now?
God : Stop analyzing life. Just live it. Analysis is what makes it complicated.

Me: why are we then constantly unhappy?
God : Your today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday. You are worrying because you are analyzing. Worrying has become your habit. That's why you are not happy.

Me: But how can we not worry when there is so much uncertainty?
God : Uncertainty is inevitable, but worrying is optional.

Me: But then, there is so much pain due to uncertainty. .
God : Pain is inevitable able, but suffering is optional.

Me: If suffering is optional, why do good people always suffer?
God : Diamond cannot be polished without friction. Gold cannot be purified without fire. Good people go through trials, but don't suffer. With that experience their life become better not bitter.

Me: You mean to say such experience is useful?
God : Yes. In every terms, Experience is a hard teacher. She gives the test first and the lessons afterwards.

Me: But still, why should we go through such tests? Why cant we be free from problems?
God : Problems are Purposeful R oadblocks Offering B eneficial Lessons (to) Enhance Mental S trength. Inner strength comes from struggle and endurance, not when you are free from problems.

Me: Frankly in the midst of so many problems, we don't know where we are heading..
God : If you look outside you will not know where you are heading. Look inside. Looking outside, you dream. Looking inside, you awaken. Eyes provide sight. Heart provides insight.

Me: Sometimes not succeeding fast seems to hurt more than moving in the right direction. What should I do?
God : Success is a measure as decided by others. Satisfaction is a measure as decided by you. Knowing the road ahead is more satisfying than knowing you road ahead. You work with the compass. Let others work with the clock.

Me: In tough times, how do you stay motivated?
God : Always look at how far you have come rather than how far you have to go. Always count your blessing, not what you are missing.

Me: What surprises you about people?
God : When they suffer they ask, "why me?" When they prosper, they never ask "Why me". Everyone wishes to have truth on their side, but few want to be on the side of the truth.

Me: Sometimes I ask, who am I, why am I here. I cant get the answer.
God : Seek not to find who you are, but to determine who you want to be. Stop looking for a purpose as to why you are here. Create it. Life is not a process of discovery but a process of creation.

Me: How can I get the best out of life?
God : Face your past without regret. Handle your present with confidence. Prepare for the future without fear.

Me: One last question. Sometimes I feel my prayers are not answered.
God : There are no unanswered prayers. At times the answer is NO.

Me: Thank you for this wonderful chat.
God : Well. Keep the faith and drop the fear. Don't believe your doubts and doubt your beliefs. Life is a mystery to solve not a problem to resolve. Trust me. Life is wonderful if you know how to live. "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take but by the moments that took our breath away!



LIVE TODAY. "There are two eternities that can really break you down. Yesterday and Tomorrow. One is gone and other doesn't exists...... ..So Live Today."
[TABLE="class: yiv13704619MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD]

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[tbs]

hi
nambinaarku kadavul undu......prahladanukku kadavul undu....hiranyakshanukku kadavul illai...both live simontaniously,,,,,

regards
tbs