Shri tks sir,
I am unable to view the forum regularly because of personal circumstances. So, kindly excuse me if I
disappear now and then.
Thank you for your kind explanations.
I tend to agree with all that you say, as an ordinary brahmin by birth. But the cases cited in this thread (
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6948-
some-silly-childish-selfish-amoral-atheists-agnostics.html) about great and intelligent people not being believers in God and religion, creates some doubts in my mind as to whether the agnostics and atheists are, after all, so very intelligent; if so, they must also be having clear ideas and we should not take them to be confused fellows holding lunatic notions like "God does not exist". If God is really there, would not He turn these atheists and agnostics into mentally deranged people for keeping such wrong ideas and, more important, the disrespect shown to God? What is your opinion on this?
I have been told and have also read in books that to clearly understand any of our scriptures, including the inner meanings of the Puranas, the first requirement is that the learner should have absolute, unquestioning
TRUST in the scripture and also the teacher, (I suppose this is what you mean by the word “Shraddha”) and that the teacher should be regarded as equal to
GOD. So, I find it difficult to accept your statement to the point that "
our study of Upanishads which do not require us to believe anything - unlike other great religious theologies". My teacher (though he may not be good as per your criterions) whom I respect fully, says that the very word "Upanishad" is used in several places to mean secret teaching, i.e., that which is learnt by going and sitting (very) near the teacher and that many things in the upanishads are, therefore, secret.
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Though I would personally feel that if we have ( and there is) a valid , logical and satisfactory explanation, why should we feel afraid of some other religionists denigrating it (we can then always reply to them convincingly, can't we?), if you do not feel like giving your explanation in the open forum, kindly send the same to me by PMs. This is a humble request.
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The reality is that it is not so easy. And my teacher has been honest enough to admit his ignorance and that makes my reverence to him stronger.
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Sri Sarma -
Since you had multiple questions in your posts let me address one or two in this response.
1. Regarding my thoughts on atheism I provided this response in this
post #6 in the same thread
In one statement it is "Atheism is another faith and there are many intelligent people with admirable character that follow this faith".
By the way in this forum we really do not have true atheists in my view.
I have only come across pseudo-atheists who are confused people with an agenda to put down Brahminism or denigrate teachings of Upanishads etc. I have no reason to respond to these but I did on occasion for two reasons. One, I had some time to kill and do enjoy spending time in this forum getting to know people and two, because I did not want a propaganda of mis-information to unsuspecting public who may be misled after coming to this forum if some of the silly claims and statements are not challenged by someone.
However I do hold true agnostics in higher respect and even atheists over superstitious people. Let me explain.
When we are born it is matter of fact that we are ignorant of many things. As years progress our bodies age but we may or many not grow and mature.
Being Agnostics is a natural state because answers to questions like 'How did I come about, How did this impossibly vast universe come about, who created it, is there really a creator' do not have easy answers. If someone says I am not an agnostics but if they continue to say "not only I do not know the answers, such answers can never be known by anyone" - we are talking about a person who is a 'forever agnostics' which is another belief.
Atheism is a belief and like 'forever agnostics' which is a similar belief system they represent a negative maturity state from true agnostics. Even worse than these two belief system, in my view is a religious person steeped in superstition. Unfortunately many traditions including Hindu traditions involve people memorizing meaningless verses and have reverence to a text simply because they are told so by their elders. If a person is comfortable and find peace with that approach I have no critique even if some superstition is involved. However if one is perturbed they have two options. One is to stop doing meaningless rituals and become an agnostic first. Many degenerate into atheism at this point. The other approach is to learn Upanishads from appropriately qualified person to understand the answers to all the questions. This gives an opportunity to attain positive maturity.
I am sure your teacher is a fine person and great human being with humility. Based on some of the literal translation he seem to have provided, in my view he has not earned the rights to teach the subject. Perhaps he can teach how to recite with correct pronunciation and intonation. It appears he is focused too much on ritualistic aspects without knowing the meanings.
In the word Upanishad - the part 'Upa' means "near". The question is 'Near" what ? It is not about near a Guru for some knowledge to be transmitted in secret. An item cannot remain a secret if more than one person knows about anyway.
"near" here refers to Atma "I" , our true nature. In my
first reply-post to you I made a startling statement " 'You are not what you think you are'.
The real you (not the pointer to you) is the cause of this entire universe".
You dont have to understand the above statement but you have to appreciate what the Upanishads are teaching you. If not there is no way to interpret any of the meanings correctly.
Finally let me quote a few statements from Sri Vivekananda lectures. Here is one
reference, though there are many. He explains about atheism etc in this way. There is a lot of wisdom in what Sri Vivekananda is teaching here. Let me reproduce here a few statements.
"The hundreds of superstitions that we have been hugging to our breasts for centuries have to be weeded out of Indian soil, and thrown aside, so that they may die forever. These are the causes of the degradation of the hindu race and will lead to softening of the brain. That brain which cannot think high and noble thoughts, which has lost all power of originality, which has lost all vigour, that brain which is always poisoning itself with all sorts of little superstitions passing under the name of religion, we must beware of.
Of the several dangers facing us, the two, Scylla and Charybdis, rank materialism and its opposite, arrant superstition, must be avoided. There is the man today who after drinking the cup of Western wisdom, thinks that he knows everything. He laughs at the ancient sages. All Hindu thought to him is arrant trash - philosophy seems mere child's prattle, and religion the superstition of fools. On the other hand, there is the man educated, but a sort of monomaniac, who runs to the other extreme and wants to explain the omen of this and that. He has philosophical and metaphysical, and Lord knows what other puerile explanations for every superstition that belongs to his peculiar race, or his peculiar Gods, or his peculiar village. Every little village superstition is to him a mandate of the Vedas, and upon the carrying out of it, according to him, depends the national life. You must beware of this.
I would rather see every one of you rank atheists than superstitious fools, for the atheist is alive and you can make something out of him. But if superstition enters, the brain is gone, the brain is softening, degradation has seized upon the life. Avoid these two.
Brave, bold men, these are what we want. What we want is vigour in the blood, strength in the nerves, iron muscles and nerves of steel, not softening namby-pamby ideas. Avoid all these. Avoid all mystery.
There is no mystery in religion. Is there any mystery in the Vedanta, or in the Vedas, or in the Samhitas, or in the Puranas? What secret societies did the sages of yore establish to preach their religion? What sleight-of-hand tricks are there recorded as used by them to bring their grand truths to humanity?
Mystery mongering and superstition are always signs of weakness. These are always signs of degradation and of death. Therefore beware of them; be strong, and stand on your own feet.
Great things are there, most marvellous things. We may call them supernatural things so far as our ideas of nature go, but not one of these things is a mystery. It was never preached on this soil that the truths of religion were mysteries or that they were the property of secret societies sitting on the snow-caps of the Himalayas. I have been in the Himalayas. You have not been there; it is several hundreds of miles from your homes.
I am a Sannyasin, and I have been for the last fourteen years on my feet. These mysterious societies do not exist anywhere. Do not run after these superstitions. Better for you and for the race that you become rank atheists, because you would have strength, but these are degradation and death.
Shame on humanity that strong men should spend their time on these superstitions, spend all their time in inventing allegories to explain the most rotten superstitions of the world. Be bold; do not try to explain everything that way.
The fact is that we have many superstitions, many bad spots and sores on our body - these have to be excised, cut off, and destroyed - but these do not destroy our religion, our national life, our spirituality. Every principle of religion is safe, and the sooner these black spots are purged away, the better the principles will shine, the more gloriously. Stick to the principles." - Swami Vivekananda !
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. I chose this thread partly because of the apt title and also this thread gets a lot of volume.
