God Exists

[sangom]

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Al Queda is a FATALISTIC concept of one religion, perpetrated by FICTTION, FANTACY & CRAZY ideas of rational brains of some in the name of religion. Osama Bin Laden is the lead perpetrater of his organization, misusing the principles of religion, controlling his group of people and spoiling their life by converting them into terrorists.

That's the impact of Humans rational brain that can take any negative and positive sides. They can either use religon or sceince to give shape to their crazy ideas and create havoc.

Dear Shri Ravi,

The following is what wikipedia gives about Osama Bin Laden's education :-

Bin Laden was raised as a devout Wahhabi Muslim.[SUP][19][/SUP] From 1968 to 1976, he attended the élite secular Al-Thager Model School.[SUP][16][/SUP][SUP][20][/SUP] He studied economics and business administration[SUP][21][/SUP] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest he earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[SUP][22][/SUP] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[SUP][23][/SUP] One source described him as "hard working",[SUP][24][/SUP] another said he left university during his third year without completing a college degree.[SUP][25][/SUP] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[SUP][26][/SUP] Other interests included writing poetry;[SUP][27][/SUP] reading, with the works of Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery and Charles de Gaulle said to be among his favorites; black stallions; and association football, in which he enjoyed playing at centre forward and followed the fortunes of Arsenal F.C.[28]

You will kindly observe that he was born into a very rich family, went to an elite secular school but his main interest was religion, interpreting the Quran and Jihad and doing charitable work. He was otherwise a fine person interested in writing poetry, reading Montgomery & De gaulle, black stallions and playing centre forward with a bias in favour of Arsenal. All these must have made him a very ordinary aristocrat or billionaire engineer, but that was not to be. Citing your own descriptions of Laden in your above post, he became the lead perpetrater of his organization, misusing the principles of religion, controlling his group of people and spoiling their life by converting them into terrorists; I don't think anyone reading these posts will opine that writing poetry, reading Montgomery & De gaulle, black stallions and playing centre forward with a bias in favour of Arsenal, etc., will change a person into a jihadist, and only religion could have done it. Hence it is as clear as daylight that religion is one agency which can and which does, incite human beings to turn into "fanatics", persons motivated by irrational enthusiasm for a cause.

The "crusades" are another example of religion growing to fanatical proportions and for which the Pope granted indulgence or remission from the temporal punishment for sin, from drawing out of the limitless merits (puNyams) of Jesus. Thus armed with exemption from sin and punishment therefor, Roman Catholics waged wars for close to 300 years; they lost ultimately, may be because the opposing Seljuk Turks were jihadists. Even the hindu armies are supposed to launch the war with slogans like "har har mahadev". What do all these show? That religion is the only factor which can raise the fanaticism of humans to such a pitch as to make them do any ghastly killing, with the minimum expenditure - give just adequately inciting oration to the gullible religious and they will be ready-made fanatics.

 

[sangom]

Example---------Lot of poli saamiyaarkal, people like Osaamaa Bin Laden who take to his help the JIHAD and many more.Neo sanyasis who enter politiks with saffron dress.

pOli saamiyaarkaL would not exist if religion did not give them the shelter. And, to me, that is one of the drawbacks of religion. You may have pOli naastikargaL but they cannot as such influence anyone except perhaps their close family circle.

 

[Nara]

pOli saamiyaarkaL would not exist if religion did not give them the shelter. And, to me, that is one of the drawbacks of religion. You may have pOli naastikargaL but they cannot as such influence anyone except perhaps their close family circle.

The sad thing is, the religious fervor is so intense and powerful that even after these pOli sAmiyArkaL are exposed, the devotees do not wake up from their reverence of the pOlees. Such is the power of religious faith and superstitions.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

shankar sir, if i may intervene..

before seeking a response, it would be ideal if you could clarify/define, what kind of betterment you are looking here..

happiness/social human index/per capita / job opportunities / crime rates / community living / culture / heritge ?

Shri Shiv,

I "endorse and deliver" this to Shri Haridasa Siva because it is he who made the statement initially and I myself wanted the very same clarifications as you now seek from me.

 

[ShivKC]

The sad thing is, the religious fervor is so intense and powerful that even after these pOli sAmiyArkaL are exposed, the devotees do not wake up from their reverence of the pOlees. Such is the power of religious faith and superstitions.
Cheers!

i always wonder why few members here, are always behind hinting on 'pOli sAmiyArkaL'?

have a look at the double standards here.

when some one points about EVR's chid marriage, one quickly shut others mouth by saying 'hey, look at what he advocated, give a ear to his POV, but, don't go behind one's personal issues'!!

but it seems, the same yard stick is forbidden to be applied, when it comes to pOli sAmiyArkaL.

take the case of swami nityananda.. its true he slept with a movie star. so what??.. why not you comment on his preaching,upadesam etc, instead of pointing on the mucus in his nose!.

if nityananada was preaching and promoting every one of his followers to bed with the actress', like him, then you all have a valid point.

this attitude sounds more like our congress digvijay singh, who is tweeting daily about bedi's faulty travel claims/ kejriwals IT dues.

 

[sangom]

Karma rule is attested to Supreme being / GOD. The almighty is the designer of Karma theory. Thus the notion that the almighty governs the actions of humans. Humans in each brith have free will amidst the trials. Amids the negative and positive factors offered to him as per his Karma.

This is probably a good and comfortable stand which can make the religious-minded smug. But it is difficult to rationally digest that the Supreme being/GOD - who could also have simply remained smug - was somehow compelled (by whom- some Super GOD?) to make a Karma Theory and then allow all jivas complete free will subject to the trials, and negative and positive factors. To me the Supreme God is the director of the "never-ending Super Mega serial"!

Give clear proof that "all" 800 millian poor Indians who suffer in abject poverty have perfect understanding of what Religion preaches? What is Karma? What is Sprirituality?

What is perfect understanding (PUR) of what, say, hindu Religion preaches? Is advaita correct, visishtadvaita correct, dvaita correct, Yoga correct, Samkhya correct, Bhakti correct? And, who will decide whether a person has such perfect understanding and in what manner? Additionally, is there any guarantee from you Shri Ravi, that once any paerson acquires this so-called PUR, he/she will be rid of all sufferings and be still alive? Contrarily, will you hold the view that the rest (except those 800 million poor Indians) all have acquired PUR?

It is indeed hard to expect clarity from Athiests who all have determined to conclude bluntly just to refute against religion, God and sprirituality. Media, fraud God Men, Jihadis etc.etc. adding strength to Atheists blatant allegations.

First let us have some clarity from the theists for the doubts listed above pl.

 

[sangom]

i always wonder why few members here, are always behind hinting on 'pOli sAmiyArkaL'?

have a look at the double standards here.

when some one points about EVR's chid marriage, one quickly shut others mouth by saying 'hey, look at what he advocated, give a ear to his POV, but, don't go behind one's personal issues'!!

but it seems, the same yard stick is forbidden to be applied, when it comes to pOli sAmiyArkaL.

Dear Shiv,

This Double Standards (DS) is universal, imo. Kindly have a look at some of the old threads about Swami Vivekananda and a more recent one by Shri pviyer giving excerpts from Sringeri Acharya's interview with a foreigner. The same uproar saying he is already a much venerated person, hence no criticism is rather a tendency of weak human mind which does not want its dream hero crumbling down to dust. We had a rather outrageous example of such a mindset when one gm died recently.

So, let us both sides try to learn with the DS. Peace ! Amen !

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shiv,

This Double Standards (DS) is universal, imo. Kindly have a look at some of the old threads about Swami Vivekananda and a more recent one by Shri pviyer giving excerpts from Sringeri Acharya's interview with a foreigner. The same uproar saying he is already a much venerated person, hence no criticism is rather a tendency of weak human mind which does not want its dream hero crumbling down to dust. We had a rather outrageous example of such a mindset when one gm died recently.

So, let us both sides try to learn with the DS. Peace ! Amen !

shankar sir, i love this frank statement doped with the one which comes along with aging, called 'wisdom'.. triple salutes!

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shiv,

This Double Standards (DS) is universal, imo. Kindly have a look at some of the old threads about Swami Vivekananda and a more recent one by Shri pviyer giving excerpts from Sringeri Acharya's interview with a foreigner. The same uproar saying he is already a much venerated person, hence no criticism is rather a tendency of weak human mind which does not want its dream hero crumbling down to dust. We had a rather outrageous example of such a mindset when one gm died recently.

So, let us both sides try to learn with the DS. Peace ! Amen !

I wholeheartedly support this view in general, with few exception. A public enemy or anyone inciting physical violence against a group can never be venerated.

 

[Yamaka]

"The almighty is the designer of Karma theory. Thus the notion that the almighty governs the actions of humans. Humans in each birth have free will amidst the trials. Amids the negative and positive factors offered to him as per his Karma". post 1623.

Here in lies the self-contradiction in this para. This is again the crux of all the discussions in this Thread.

Sentence 1 Fine

Sentence 2 This is the original meaning or intent of God & Religion, as per ALL Faiths: "Almighty governs the action of humans".. this is true in this birth and all the previous births, if any (according to Hinduism).

Sentence 3 & 4 contradict Sentence 2.

Atheism stands in total disagreement to Theism and what it stands for.



ps. Where is the validity for a Karma Theory that gives FREE WILL to humans, when the over-arching idea of Religion is "Almighty governs ALL actions of humans ALL the time"? Karma Theory contradicts the over-arching idea of Religion and God, IMO.

 

[ShivKC]

"The almighty is the designer of Karma theory. Thus the notion that the almighty governs the actions of humans. Humans in each birth have free will amidst the trials. Amids the negative and positive factors offered to him as per his Karma". post 1623.

Here in lies the self-contradiction in this para. This is again the crux of all the discussions in this Thread.
.

Yam's, contradiction or being asymmetric will always be there in this world, a beauty of creation of this universe. this touch upon your point why there is poverty for some and happy hindus' recent quest asking ' why god creates handicapped children'.. thats the beauty of being asymmetric..

how about the erstwhile atheist russian commie kingdoms? what if ever one in this world gets a ration of your favorite target of Rs.150 a day. would that life be fun?

have a look at these contradictions in atheism..

implicit atheism, explicit atheism, apatheism , agnostic atheism, and our school days favorite scientist Pascal's non congnitivism ?

even the divisions of atheism gives an indication to gods creation being asymmetric, huh!

 

[Yamaka]

Yam's contradiction or asymmetric has to be there, a beauty of creation of this universe. this touch upon your point why there is poverty for some and happy hindus' recent quest asking ' why god creates handicapped children'.. thats the beauty of being asymmetric.. like the erstwhile commie kingdoms, what if ever one in this world gets a ration of Rs.150 a day. would that life be fun?

have a look at these contradictions in atheism..

implicit atheism, explicit atheism, apatheism , agnostic atheism, and our school days favorite scientist Pascal's non congnitivism ?

even the divisions of atheism gives an indication to gods creation being asymmetric, huh!

Shiv:

What you say as Asymmetry is Variations in the population for me, the Atheist.

By definition, an Atheist rejects all that is propounded by a Theist.

In Nature which I totally rely on or believe in, variation is natural.. that's how I explain why someone has skill levels of making $1000 a day or $1 a day or somewhere in between.

Nature governs all our activities. For a Naturalist, "poojas, prayers and bhajans" and a dogmatic Belief in a Super-Natural Agent is an anathema.

Yamaka is an Atheist, and a Naturalist.

 

[ShivKC]

Shiv:

What you say as Asymmetry is Variations in the population for me, the Atheist.

By definition, an Atheist rejects all that is propounded by a Theist.

In Nature which I totally rely on or believe in, variation is natural.. that's how I explain why someone has skill levels of making $1000 a day or $1 a day or somewhere in between.

Nature governs all our activities. For a Naturalist, "poojas, prayers and bhajans" and a dogmatic Belief in a Super-Natural Agent is an anathema.

Yamaka is an Atheist, and a Naturalist.

Yams, have a relook at your own post. while you wish to take naturalism in to your side, are you aware that you are making a suicidal argument here? pls ponder..

 

[nachi naga]

Shri wrongan,

I suppose yourself as well as Shri Siva will, therefore, certify that Osama Bin Laden was a disciplined person and that Al Queda is also a body of disciplined people.

sangom,

on the contrary president bush defended his country as a true christian.and president obama finished the job of defending by eliminating as even as better christian,imho.

 

[Yamaka]

sangom,

on the contrary president bush defended his country as a true christian.and president obama finished the job of defending by eliminating as even as better christian,imho.

Dubbya Bush may be a true Christian. He invaded Iraq without a clear evidence of possible WMD there!

Barack Obama is not that type of a "Christian"; I believe he does not even go to Church every Sunday, citing some traffic congestion around the place in DC!

He ordered to take out Osama for destroying the Twin Towers killing 3000 innocent civilians. He did it out of a sense of Justice, not religiosity.

 

[ShivKC]

Dubbya Bush may be a true Christian. He invaded Iraq without a clear evidence of possible WMD there!

Barack Obama is not that type of a "Christian"; I believe he does not even go to Church every Sunday, citing some traffic congestion around the place in DC!

He ordered to take out Osama for destroying the Twin Towers killing 3000 innocent civilians. He did it out of a sense of Justice, not religiosity.

looks like atheism wants to write its own convenient specifications to define who is religious and who is not, so that, many a theists could be appropriated to atheism, for a head count win!!

giving proper attendance to to church or doing timely puja or 5 times namaz is not at all a minimum-critieria to make one eligible to be a theist..

theism is all about one having a 'faith or belief about the super natural power called god'. one can be a theist without having any religious tags too. there are thousands of tribal religion, which dont get listed in our google search, but they all have follow a belief system about the existence of supernatural power.

Yams, since you attempted to appropriate obama to atheism, here is what he says to CNN..

"""When I wake in the morning, I wait on the Lord, I ask him to give me the strength to do right by our country and our people," Obama said later. "And when I go to bed at night, I wait on the Lord and I ask him to forgive me my sins and to look after my family and to make me an instrument of the Lord." :

Obama delivers major speech on personal faith – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs​

 

[prasad1]

looks like atheism wants to write its own convenient specifications to define who is religious and who is not, so that, many a theists could be appropriated to atheism, for a head count win!!

giving proper attendance to to church or doing timely puja or 5 times namaz is not at all a minimum-critieria to make one eligible to be a theist..

theism is all about one having a 'faith or belief about the super natural power called god'. one can be a theist without having any religious tags too. there are thousands of tribal religion, which dont get listed in our google search, but they all have follow a belief system about the existence of supernatural power.

Yams, since you attempted to appropriate obama to atheism, here is what he says to CNN..

"""When I wake in the morning, I wait on the Lord, I ask him to give me the strength to do right by our country and our people," Obama said later. "And when I go to bed at night, I wait on the Lord and I ask him to forgive me my sins and to look after my family and to make me an instrument of the Lord." :

Obama delivers major speech on personal faith – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs​

You have to be a true Christian to be elected to the highest office. Even Mormans are having difficulty in getting elected even though they are a sub sect of Christianity Obama haters better not read this thread, he may not get reelected.

 

[Yamaka]

"Yams, since you attempted to appropriate obama to atheism, here is what he says to CNN.." post 1641

My point was "Obama was not a Christian of Dubbya type".. I did not bring Atheism there at all in that post. Please read again.

From Obama's book I understand he was an Atheist until he met Rev. Wright in the South Side of Chicago. Today, he is a Theist.. but not going to Church regularly-type!

That's all. Nothing more.

 

[sundachu]

Download: www.eType1.com/e3.php?E002d1
To realise God, you have to experience divinity in you. Electricity cannot be seen.But its power is felt. So God also makes himself felt to those who have faith in Him.

 

[ShivKC]

this is a good reason why i was always against bjp, from the begining. i hate these jokers and dont' even touch them with a ten foot pole..

look what the bjp president says ..""Nitin Gadkari on Friday said though he believes in Hindutva, he does not go to temple, or even perform a puja"".


"Hinduism is a way of life. It is not about a religion," he said, adding that "political

our man is inching towards racism slowly! even hitler tried this technique and unfortunately got success

Nitin Gadkari: I don't go to temple, I don't perform puja - The Times of India

 

[sangom]

Any how GOD has existed for quite long!

 

[nachi naga]

the fact that the body dies,but not the soul which is god.if you see your soul you see god.thats the enlightening part of every scripture every religion as is available.its so simple yet difficult to grasp.aham brahmasmi,tat tva masi,ayam athma brahmam.....so on

 

[nachi naga]

"Yams, since you attempted to appropriate obama to atheism, here is what he says to CNN.." post 1641

My point was "Obama was not a Christian of Dubbya type".. I did not bring Atheism there at all in that post. Please read again.

From Obama's book I understand he was an Atheist until he met Rev. Wright in the South Side of Chicago. Today, he is a Theist.. but not going to Church regularly-type!

That's all. Nothing more.

its difficult in any part of the world of politics to deny god and get elected.our state tamil nadu is truly an exception,wherein evr,mk,...are self professed atheist in public but privately let people believe in their belief systems.charavaka philosophy has been fine tuned by kazhagams,imho.in the usa,its important to be a christian for political aspirations .classic example is governor jindal.i am yet to see a hindu hold political power in mainstream usa.maybe in the present and near future,it will happen.americans truly are all accepting people when it comes to personal belief systems.that one may have a hard time in the bargain,is totally an opinion.

 

[nachi naga]

The Karma of Forwarding EmailsBhagvad Gita -- Adhyay 19 Arjuna: Hey Vasudev, how can I do the most heinous and unpardonable act of forwarding email that I receive, to my friends, relatives and revered elders? Krishna: Paarth, at this moment, none of them is your friend or foe, relative or in-law, young or old and good or evil. You have no escape from following your Net-Dharma. Make haste to log on and send off the email to one and all. That is the only Karma expected of you and Dharma you must follow. Arjuna: Hey Murari! Do not implore me to do something that pricks my conscience and stirs my soul. Krishna: O Kunti-Putra, you are caught in the vicious circle of Maya. In this material world, you are committed to no one except to yourself, your Dharma and your mouse. emails have existed for the last 25 years and will remain long after you are gone. Rise above the Maya and perform your bounden duty. Arjuna: Lord Krishna, pray and enlighten me on how email is related to Maya. Krishna: Vatsa, email is the sixth element in the universe -- Aap, Vaayu, Jal, Agni, Akash and email. It is at the same time animate and inanimate, living and dead beat. It overloads the system and fills up the hard disk. But it serves one great purpose. It leads people to believe that they are filling their time in an intellectual pursuit by reading and re-forwarding mail. It gives them a sense of achievement without investing their intellect and efforts. Like the Atman that leaves one's physical body and moves on to another, the email moves from system to system and never gets deleted or dies. Arjuna: Great Giridhari, kindly tell me what the true attributes of email are. Krishna: Neither fire can burn it, nor air can evaporate it. Neither can it be conquered nor can it be defeated. Email is omnipresent and immortal like your noble and eternal soul. Unlike an arrow shot from your bow, many a time the email forwarded by you, will even return to you safely after some months or even years, allowing you to re-re-forward it to the same people. Arjuna: Great Sarathi, my salutations to you. You have opened my eyes to the cult of email. I was lost in the Maya and have been reading all the email that I keep receiving and doing no other Karma. Now on, I will just press the "Forward" button without reading any of it and send it to all and sundry, friends and foes, relatives and in-laws, young and old. That will surely bring them to their knees in this epochal battle of Good against Evil, in the Kurukshetra. Krishna: Arjuna, victory or defeat is not in your hands. Do not ponder over the fruits of your labor. Just keep forwarding email and make one and all go bananas reading it and you will have done your supreme duty. Tathastu.​

Thus spoke Lord Krishna​

 

[ShivKC]

that's how I explain why someone has skill levels of making $1000 a day or $1 a day or somewhere in between.
Yamaka is an Atheist, and a Naturalist.

Yam's, its true global survey proves, than the rich tends to stay away from god.

look at how one becomes rich, i mean 'amazing' wealth?

lets say, the whole world has turned to be atheist, and all relgions are eradication. in this juncture, by any known economical theory or by any mode of higher productivity, skill or intelligence, can all the 7bn people atheists can become individual billionaires, in this world?

after all, the wealth of the world is defined and set, and its up to each one to dig out, earn and survive. if few riches keep on growing richer, proportionately the other side continue to become further poor.

the problem with atheism is, it teaches you to grow richer high and higher, be predatory and aggressive in nature (off course within the law) and declare one proud as a stereotype winner of this world. this trait of atheism will only bring in more and more poverty and widen the parity levels.

like nara, now you may claim,altruism is coded in our DNA, so i will share it with poor. but where is the mandate or from where one would get such a mandate for donating to the poor.. how much its coded, and how much one would donate, while being an altruist (as well) being predatory? and in atheism, there is no compulsion, other than genetic prompting to share the wealth the poor?

where as, in theism, all religions of the world, teaches us to share the wealth with the poor. it also condemns being extremely rich, cos 'money is the source for evil'.

the famous tamil poet Avvayar starts her first poem as 'Aram Cheyya Virumbu'..

and again, i'm not sure if you would agree, that, the scale of money cannot be used to measure happiness!

PS: bill gates/warren are all bought up in a religious mandated altruistic child hood, even though they later shifted to atheism. show me few global philanthropic riches, who were 4th generation atheists.