God Exists

[Yamaka]

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Uncle Yams , i chuckled when i read that of your text in 'bold' (!) am i putting my size seventeen foot in to my mouth?

Dear Shiv and Brahin: What's the difference between "belief" Vs "Belief of Super-Natural God"?

Let me clarify my use of the word "belief" -

For a second assume a visitor - another Scientist - coming to my Lab and ask "Doc, please tell me your Working Hypothesis on the Acquisition of Short and Long Term Memory".

I start like this "I believe that short term memory does not involve new protein synthesis, while the long term memory requires gene expression and new protein synthesis".

Here the context is my belief in my Working Hypothesis. The visiting Scientist will immediately know what I am talking about.

Coming back to what I wrote to dear MVS:

As an Athiest I don't have the belief in the Super-Natural Power, while Believers believe in this SNP. I am sure he understood what I exactly meant by that.

In no way, this contradicts my position on Theism, period. I have written exhaustively on this topic.

Some people pointed out and said, " Y, as a Naturalist you believe in Nature and Nature's Awesome Power. For many of us, that's God".

My answer has been consistently, if God of Abraham or God of Vedas & Puranas = Nature, I am in agreement. But, then, where is the NEED for all the Aaraadhana, Praise, Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans to that Nature!??

For Nature which acts by its own set of principles (laws of biology, medicine, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc etc) WILL NEVER pay any attention whatsoever to the hapless cries of humans!

More later...



ps. Please check your dictionary: "believe" verb is used in many different context, as is "belief". For example, sayings like "I believe that the fugitive has left the town", "I don't believe Houston Texans have the talent to win the Championship this year" etc. "belief" is just the noun of "believe". Clearly here we are not talking about Belief in the Super Natural God! Lol.

 

[Yamaka]

On Altruism - An Opinion

I use "Altruism" to mean the practice of concern for, or welfare of, others or the Society. To some extent, this could be opposite of being "Selfish", but not always.

Believers in God claim that their Belief makes them altruistic, which can't happen to Non-Believers of God, thus they are all Selfish.

I disagree.

Some Believers could become altruistic BECAUSE of their Belief in God.. while many more may remain Selfish.

Being Selfish is not necessarily bad, I will argue.. If EVERYONE takes care of their NEEDS and WANTS, then where's the need for Altruism in the first place?

Altruism, as per my definition, is required only many in the Society became NEGLIGENT of their RESPONSIBILITY.

Practically speaking, I am an egoistic person, and many times I think of myself FIRST: Like what I want and what my NEEDs are, what my family NEEDs etc etc... I work hard to achieve those FIRST; if not I will feel irresponsible and negligent which I can't stand in my part.

After I meet all MY and my family's needs and wants, I turn to others and Society ask "What can Yamaka do for you?"

That's the level of my Altruism, practically speaking.

More later..



ps: When oxygen deprived state is reached (while flying or other situations), it is widely recommended that adults put on the oxygen mask to themselves FIRST before attending to children and others... this is because of the concept of HELP yourself FIRST before you move on to help OTHERS. I think this is the right concept. I abide by this in real life! LOL

 

[Brahin]

ShivKC, Brahin,
One moment of weakness is not a reason for this celebration. LOL
Mr. Y was just making a point.

Dear prasad1,

It is not a celebration but rather a revelation that everyone whether Atheist or Theist do have a believe they hold on too.
Everyone believes, therefore God exists!!LOL
Anyway since I started this thread and it's still going on I thought I will write something and that came to my mind.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shiv and Brahin: What's the difference between "belief" Vs "Belief of Super-Natural God"?

Let me clarify my use of the word "belief" -

For a second assume a visitor - another Scientist - coming to my Lab and ask "Doc, please tell me your Working Hypothesis on the Acquisition of Short and Long Term Memory".

I start like this "I believe that short term memory does not involve new protein synthesis, while the long term memory requires gene expression and new protein synthesis".

Here the context is my belief in my Working Hypothesis. The visiting Scientist will immediately know what I am talking about.

Coming back to what I wrote to dear MVS:

As an Athiest I don't have the belief in the Super-Natural Power, while Believers believe in this SNP. I am sure he understood what I exactly meant by that.

In no way, this contradicts my position on Theism, period. I have written exhaustively on this topic.

Some people pointed out and said, " Y, as a Naturalist you believe in Nature and Nature's Awesome Power. For many of us, that's God".

My answer has been consistently, if God of Abraham or God of Vedas & Puranas = Nature, I am in agreement. But, then, where is the NEED for all the Aaraadhana, Praise, Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans to that Nature!??

For Nature which acts by its own set of principles (laws of biology, medicine, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc etc) WILL NEVER pay any attention whatsoever to the hapless cries of humans!

More later...



ps. Please check your dictionary: "believe" verb is used in many different context, as is "belief". For example, sayings like "I believe that the fugitive has left the town", "I don't believe Houston Texans have the talent to win the Championship this year" etc. "belief" is just the noun of "believe". Clearly here we are not talking about Belief in the Super Natural God! Lol.

Yams, i perfectly agree with your usage and context.. in cases like ' i believe fugitive has left the town' or other eg, there is a verb/function/trait called believe/belief rooted in every human being and in his day to day activity. these things cannot be questioned like we do in science. even the scientific protos or hypothesis start with a broader term called belief.

similarly, religion is all set with belief.

 

[ShivKC]

ShivKC, Brahin,
One moment of weakness is not a reason for this celebration. LOL
Mr. Y was just making a point.

not necessarily. one believes in super power.. another also has to fall under the belief system, when he claims 'super power doesnt exists or has influence', unless he proves his point in a radical/logical/scientific way.

till such time, atheism too falls under a belief system. pls refer some of the points referred by TKS

 

[Yamaka]

not necessarily. one believes in super power.. another also has to fall under the belief system, when he claims 'super power doesnt exists or has influence', unless he proves his point in a radical/logical/scientific way.

till such time, atheism too falls under a belief system. pls refer some of the points referred by TKS

Atheists assert that whatever Theism claims doesn't exist.

This is a NEGATIVE position. How could one go about proving a NEGATIVE?

Logically not possible.

Atheists don't have a "Belief System" as such, as all human beings are born Athiests, and are force-fed by the parents, relatives and the Society.

Anyway, so far I like what most Agno-Theists say:

We don't know for sure
whether God Almighty Exists or not,
whether prayers, poojas or bhajans give REAL benefits long term or not,
whether Janma Poorva Karma can be true or not,

We continue to BELIEVE because of TRADITION and perhaps little bit of FEAR (of What if kind..).

We have a long history of BELIEVING in Religion & God. Under this background, what Agno-Theists say rings REAL to me.

Cheers.

 

[nachi naga]

atheist basically attack ppl.in particular ppl's belief system.they cannot be in peace with their life becoz someone else has a belief which is contrary to his/her.its personal and revolting behaviour and they must get admitted in mental asylum immdly,as they are origin of evil asura.rofl why becoz majority in this bhu-lokah believe there is god and exists within all that is seen and unseen.

 

[sangom]

not necessarily. one believes in super power.. another also has to fall under the belief system, when he claims 'super power doesnt exists or has influence', unless he proves his point in a radical/logical/scientific way.

till such time, atheism too falls under a belief system. pls refer some of the points referred by TKS

Shri Shiv,

An atheist basically does not need or does not depend upon the god-belief. As such there is no need for him to go about and preach his atheism to anyone. But as atheists are also human beings, they get to interact with other atheists or theists, like in this forum. When some topic comes up which is based on the theist-atheist difference (this thread "god exists" is perhaps the most ideal topic) the atheists also contribute their views.

What I see generally in the world, and, to a large extent in this thread as well, is an overzealousness on the part of the theists' lobby to silence the atheist view point, by hook or by crook. As Yamaka has correctly said, an atheist need not prove the non-existence of god because no such negative can be "proved". On the contrary it is for the theists to come forward and prove the existence of their god. That will wipe out all atheism from the face of the earth.

The so-called 'learned view' that atheism is also a belief, arises because of the basic fragility of the theists' belief in god; he is also many times at a loss to confidently assert that god is there, and is on less surer grounds to vouchsafe what action god will take at any particular juncture — whether god will protect him or ruin him? Hence the zeal to win a point over the atheist, shore up his own flagging belief, so that in the next moment of such uncertainty for the theist about god's existence and/or benevolence, he will not fall from his Humpty-Dumpty position to the other (atheists' side) having been already shaken to the position of "I don't know if god is really there or not there".

Some of the people who get morally enraged at atheists probably have some jihadi elements in their psyche and so they feel, opposing, attacking, and, if possible, annihilating atheists/atheism will be liked by god and they in turn, will be rewarded for their mercenary holy deeds. Their belief will be proved true or false only after their death - if at all they will get to meet their god after death; till then it is a strong belief, nay, conviction for them.

 

[Yamaka]

atheist basically attack ppl.in particular ppl's belief system.they cannot be in peace with their life becoz someone else has a belief which is contrary to his/her.its personal and revolting behaviour and they must get admitted in mental asylum immdly,as they are origin of evil asura.rofl why becoz majority in this bhu-lokah believe there is god and exists within all that is seen and unseen.

Already by the awesome power of RATIONAL THINKING and Experimentation, Science Engineering & Technology (SET) has made enormous strides in the daily lives of people.

The inertia of "Godism" is broken. Their Belief is in Question mark????

So much so, in such short years (about 100 years) the number of people Not Worshiping Any God has swelled to about 2.5 billions in the world.

There is an inexorable march of SET to ask and demand people to be RATIONAL.. and Scientific in their thinking and outlook...

The Winds of Change is blowing hard everywhere!

That's the Existential Threat to all Blind Believers! Lol

Wait & watch.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Yamaka,
You talk of 'nature' and 'nature's power' and also, acknowledge that it is a greater power than 'us' or 'our consciousness'. From that it is but a step away to become 'humble' and 'pray' for guidance in this life of ours. When you have no 'control' over what you are or what you do or where you are headed, then that truth alone should teach you 'humility' and 'prayer' will come naturally to you because you would have shed the 'ego' that makes you 'unbending' and 'try to assert' your 'powerless and helpless' little 'ego self' all the time against odds.

 

[sangom]

Yamaka,
You talk of 'nature' and 'nature's power' and also, acknowledge that it is a greater power than 'us' or 'our consciousness'. From that it is but a step away to become 'humble' and 'pray' for guidance in this life of ours. When you have no 'control' over what you are or what you do or where you are headed, then that truth alone should teach you 'humility' and 'prayer' will come naturally to you because you would have shed the 'ego' that makes you 'unbending' and 'try to assert' your 'powerless and helpless' little 'ego self' all the time against odds.

The basic question is why should Man be praying to that 'power' however potent and formidable it may be. If a man recognizes the existence of such a power, acknowledges its superiority and lives according to what his given intellect tells him to be the right path, where does the need for humility as a show-piece and prayer come in? Are these not devices invented and imposed on people's minds by the religions and priesthood?

It is also incorrect to jump to the conclusion that if someone does not pray to a god, is not showing his humility towards a god openly, etc., that person is by definition having high ego, is unbending, is trying to assert his 'powerless and helpless little ego self' to assert all the time, etc. This scenario fits in well with a tyrant of a god who will not brook anything other than abject or extreme servility; to me this what priesthood, godmen, acharyas, gurujis, etc., look to from their followers/devotees and that god, in case he exists, is innocent of all this mischief.

Finally in what way will the change over to humility and prayer by Yamaka, if it so happens, will help anyone else?

 

[Yamaka]

Yamaka,
You talk of 'nature' and 'nature's power' and also, acknowledge that it is a greater power than 'us' or 'our consciousness'. From that it is but a step away to become 'humble' and 'pray' for guidance in this life of ours. When you have no 'control' over what you are or what you do or where you are headed, then that truth alone should teach you 'humility' and 'prayer' will come naturally to you because you would have shed the 'ego' that makes you 'unbending' and 'try to assert' your 'powerless and helpless' little 'ego self' all the time against odds.

Dear MSV:

We have different Mind Set. I am an Atheist and perhaps you are a Theist.

I admire Nature. But I don't worship it... why to worship Sun, Moon, Sea, Fire and the Wind - all Manifestations of Nature?

"Prayer" has no value whatsoever to me. That's for the Believers of Super Natural God.

My Id/Ego is the driving force to wake me up everyday and pushes me to achieve what I want on a daily basis.

Your "Humility" has no room if you rely on your strengths...

What's the TRUTH? Please define it for me.

Cheers.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Yamaka,
Read once again the choice of words in your postings and also,the intensity of 'hatred' that they show toward 'theists'! How then can you blame the 'theists' of such 'hatred' towards 'atheists' unless you see the reflection of yourself in them? And what is all this about the alleged 'growing majority' of 'non-believers' over 'believers' and also, equating all 'believers' with 'jihadis'? Where do you get such notions? Who is going crazy in asserting what one stands for as though it mattered any one bit in a world not of your making! And also, this exultation in 'Godism' being broken and such assertions! Who is really coming up with all those developments in science, engineering and technology (SET,as you put it) and where do you think that their 'rationality' springs from? Is it your belief that they have shaped their 'rationality' all by themselves? Are those people really the 'efficient cause' of themselves? If you do not believe in 'God', just say that one word and that would do. There is no need to raise a trumpet and challenge everyone around to justify your belief or your brief existence on this earth.

 

[Yamaka]

Yamaka,
Read once again the choice of words in your postings and also,the intensity of 'hatred' that they show toward 'theists'! How then can you blame the 'theists' of such 'hatred' towards 'atheists' unless you see the reflection of yourself in them? And what is all this about the alleged 'growing majority' of 'non-believers' over 'believers' and also, equating all 'believers' with 'jihadis'? Where do you get such notions? Who is going crazy in asserting what one stands for as though it mattered any one bit in a world not of your making! And also, this exultation in 'Godism' being broken and such assertions! Who is really coming up with all those developments in science, engineering and technology (SET,as you put it) and where do you think that their 'rationality' springs from? Is it your belief that they have shaped their 'rationality' all by themselves? Are those people really the 'efficient cause' of themselves? If you do not believe in 'God', just say that one word and that would do. There is no need to raise a trumpet and challenge everyone around to justify your belief or your brief existence on this earth.

Dear MSV:

1. Please cite the post where I show "hatred", or words of "jihadis".

2. The world of today is largely made by SET. That's all I am claiming. And, I am a part and parcel of SET thru my chosen profession.

3. The Rationality and Creativity of SET springs from people who dared to think Scientific.

4. In a Thread that says "God Exists", don't you expect an Alternate view point from Atheists?

It's quite appropriate to "trumpet" and challenge if someone claims that "God Exists", IMO.

You need not read what the Secular Thinkers write in this Thread... it's your CHOICE.

You want the cozy comfort of a Belief..... that's your problem, if any!

5. My existence will be as brief as your existence: Can you tell me that your Belief and Prayers will make you live longer or live better than the Secular Thinkers?

Cheers.

 

[ramanasukumar]

Dear Yamaka
You are telling lie that you are a non believer. But You believe yourself and find who you are?

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka
You are telling lie that you are a non believer. But You believe yourself and find who you are?

Dear Ram:

Can you explain this further? What's the lie here?

I believe in myself... If you don't want me to use the word verb "believe", then I say I assert myself as a Secular Thinker.

Where's the problem, here?

Are you a Theist or an Agno-Theist? Please read my other post on Agno-Theists.

Do you care to explain your Theology in this Open Forum? It's your CHOICE!

Let's talk...

Wait & watch.

 

[renuka]

There are 2 types of Atheists in this world.

1st type...Truly self declared Atheist who doesnt run down any form of believe cos its just his/her way of life not to feel that God exists.
Its just like being Veg and Non Veg..one chooses to be either Veg or Non Veg for reasons best known to them.

2nd type of Atheist is the "Village party" types who go around with an sword(அரிவாள்) of words at the back of their shirts and Yada Yada they need to use it againts an Theist,Tada Tada they display their hatred towards Theist but yet point fingers that Theist are the ones who find fault with them.

1st type is harmless and are actually in fact most of the while very nice individuals.
2nd type can get irritating and if threshold is crossed just "encounter" them faster than Quick Gun Murugan can shoot!!!Mind it!!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

If you ask, I will say whether it is Aethist or Thesist.
To be safe and protect ourselves and to keep away from
arguments, as it will be difficult to compromise them in
unison, is to say "Anbe Sivam". That is all.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[suraju06]

2nd type can get irritating and if threshold is crossed just "encounter" them faster than Quick Gun Murugan can shoot!!!Mind it!!

Better, faster than Gun Fight Kanchana.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

There are 2 types of Atheists in this world.

1st type...Truly self declared Atheist who doesnt run down any form of believe cos its just his/her way of life not to feel that God exists.
Its just like being Veg and Non Veg..one chooses to be either Veg or Non Veg for reasons best known to them.

2nd type of Atheist is the "Village party" types who go around with an sword(அரிவாள்) of words at the back of their shirts and Yada Yada they need to use it againts an Theist,Tada Tada they display their hatred towards Theist but yet point fingers that Theist are the ones who find fault with them.

1st type is harmless and are actually in fact most of the while very nice individuals.
2nd type can get irritating and if threshold is crossed just "encounter" them faster than Quick Gun Murugan can shoot!!!Mind it!!

There are two types of Theists -

Type 1. Go around the temple/mosque/church, invoke the Ishta Deva all the time and live for "the next world" whenever that comes. No blather and no conflicts. A very Sadhu type.

Type 2. Keep Sword, Quick Guns & the like around their waist; whenever a Secular Thinker walks around the corner of the house, just whistle and pull the trigger. Laugh in glee and dance in trance!

Then go and do the Master Pooja & Bhajans in the name of the Almighty and recite the Adventure of the Day...include some exotic mantra written in Sanskrit!

Voila, declare "You Made My Day, Atheee"!

 

[Yamaka]

If you ask, I will say whether it is Aethist or Thesist.
To be safe and protect ourselves and to keep away from
arguments, as it will be difficult to compromise them in
unison, is to say "Anbe Sivam". That is all.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Dear Bala:

If the Theists truly believe and act "Anbe Sivam", then the world will be a better place.

They say one thing, and do totally opposite of the "Anbe Sivam" is what brings the CONFLICT!

That's the problem here!

Cheers.

 

[amala]

Can someone please tell me what quick gun Murugan and Kanchana are? Is it like an psp game?

 

[Yamaka]

Okay, folks:

It's time to welcome Santa Claus... I am expecting some good "gifts" from him.. I left my chimney clean so that he can come to my place easily w/o dirtying his suit.

I hope you all get good gifts too...

Sharing gifts as a display of our love and affection is the Name of the Game at the time of X-mas...

Oh, forget about what happened at Bethlahem or the Journey of the Magi!

That's for others to worry about!

Happy Santa Day!

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

There are two types of Theists -

Type 1. Go around the temple/mosque/church, invoke the Ishta Deva all the time and live for "the next world" whenever that comes. No blather and no conflicts. A very Sadhu type.

Type 2. Keep Sword, Quick Guns & the like around their waist; whenever a Secular Thinker walks around the corner of the house, just whistle and pull the trigger. Laugh in glee and dance in trance!

Then go and do the Master Pooja & Bhajans in the name of the Almighty and recite the Adventure of the Day...include some exotic mantra written in Sanskrit!

Voila, declare "You Made My Day, Atheee"!

Y,

The mandatory 'guru' is missing!

 

[guruvayurappan]

There are two types of Theists -

Type 1. Go around the temple/mosque/church, invoke the Ishta Deva all the time and live for "the next world" whenever that comes. No blather and no conflicts. A very Sadhu type.

Type 2. Keep Sword, Quick Guns & the like around their waist; whenever a Secular Thinker walks around the corner of the house, just whistle and pull the trigger. Laugh in glee and dance in trance!

Then go and do the Master Pooja & Bhajans in the name of the Almighty and recite the Adventure of the Day...include some exotic mantra written in Sanskrit!

Voila, declare "You Made My Day, Atheee"!

dear yamka and renuka !
after reading the post of you it made me to repeat the word
extremism in any thing is dangerous. your freedom ends where my nose begins
cheers,
guruvayurappan