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God Exists

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Thank you, Balasubramanian and Guruvayurappan. Even as you compliment me, I am sure that 'Yamaka' is just polishing his reply to post as soon as it is ready! It is like the story told of Buddha and a follower of his who asked him why the people who come to listen to him are not getting 'enlightened' in spite of his many discourses showing the path to a life free from the 'misery of existence' in this world. Buddha advised him to inquire with the people who come to attend his discourses and find out for himself. And soon he found that many people were coming there with some personal problem or the other for which they wanted some solution and not at all to seek 'enlightenment'. It is the same as the barber's story given here at the outset. Unless one 'seeks' wisdom, it is not going to come to him! Likewise unless one 'seeks' God, one is not going to 'realize' God! More likely, in one's wanderings through life, one may stumble upon the 'Devil' himself, be enamored of him and embrace his philosophy and laugh at the 'Godly' beings.


Well written but you know what? Even though anyone here can write volumes about God..some in the other end of the spectrum will just finish it off in a few lines.
Dont even expect some Caaru(sweet) Vaak(Words) like a Cārvāka (चार्वाक),..at least those guys had some marketing skills!!!

So be prepared for somewhat not so Caaru replies like this:

1)God does not exist!!

2)Religion is man made.

3)People who pray to God think they can commit anything and get away with it.

4)Karma and Poorva Janam Theory does not exists.

5)Most Epics like Ramayan/Mahabharat are fiction.


You know ...I have coined a new word..its called Secular Atheist!! cos I have noted that some Atheist are NOT secular.

For some of them only the Hindu divinities do not exists and the they have no comment on Non Hindu divinities.
So for a Secular Atheist all forms of Divinities(Hindu and Non Hindu) do not exist.
Non Secular Atheists have a hidden agenda.

Wait and Watch!!
 
atheists are often very smart people with analytical abilities. What they say, often, is that "a flying sphagetti monster in the sky" is irrelevant for worldy life. They don't venture into spiritual or philosophical arguments. Hence, it is necessary to know where they stop and where religion begins. There exists a fine line there and I have visited both sides.
hello Dr.barani !smartness is not the exclusive property of atheist alone .there are more smart theist and believers .it is nothing to do with GOD. it is because of your followup on our knowledge
guruvayurappan
 
daer sankar !
when i put the question to my daughter whether we have to ask(pray ) GOD for every thing ,her reply was
mother will treat her children equally and she knows what the child requires but as a mother she will give some extra for crying /requesting(praying ) child at one stage even crying will not help since mother knows it is not good for health . So let us surrender to the ALMIGHTY and he will take care of us
guruvayurappan

Very Super Example Mr Guruvayurappan. Pray God to Bless your Daughter and her intelligence to
analyse things in this young age.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
If God indeed exists (I believe in God), how come the Russians who were godless for nearly 100 years under communism, did rather well for themselves? Don't say god existed in their hearts, because 2-3 generations of Russians grew up not knowing what religion was, and how people worship.
 
If God indeed exists (I believe in God), how come the Russians who were godless for nearly 100 years under communism, did rather well for themselves? Don't say god existed in their hearts, because 2-3 generations of Russians grew up not knowing what religion was, and how people worship.


Cos God helps those who help themselves!!
 
Cos God helps those who help themselves!!

Not really, those communists, and even people in the western hemisphere who had rather lukewarm ideas about religion, and the Chinese who even now have no formal religion, are doing rather well without the shackles of caste, religion, gotra etc. Has anyone really seen God? Its a different matter that I am religious, but even non-believers seem to be doing very well. In fact, countries where religion is not a high priority (most western countries, Korea, Japan, China etc) are doing very well, and their people are leading long and happy lives.
 
Not really, those communists, and even people in the western hemisphere who had rather lukewarm ideas about religion, and the Chinese who even now have no formal religion, are doing rather well without the shackles of caste, religion, gotra etc. Has anyone really seen God? Its a different matter that I am religious, but even non-believers seem to be doing very well. In fact, countries where religion is not a high priority (most western countries, Korea, Japan, China etc) are doing very well, and their people are leading long and happy lives.


You know when I was small I used to see a cartoon which had this song..Wait till your father gets..until your father gets..wait till your father gets home"

You know what I am singing now?
"Wait till Yamaka gets..until Yamaka gets..wait till Yamaka gets home"

We have a member by the name Yamaka(he is on holiday now)
Wait till he gets home to Forum..he is going to LOVE you!!!LOL
He thinks a lot like you..

[video=youtube_share;mbsEYoKm9X8]http://youtu.be/mbsEYoKm9X8[/video]
 
daer sankar !
when i put the question to my daughter whether we have to ask(pray ) GOD for every thing ,her reply was
mother will treat her children equally and she knows what the child requires but as a mother she will give some extra for crying /requesting(praying ) child at one stage even crying will not help since mother knows it is not good for health . So let us surrender to the ALMIGHTY and he will take care of us
guruvayurappan
Highly meaningful.I thing no more explanation is required here.
 
"God" may or may not be there. But he has so far not asked, either personally or through any agent. (I am not sure of the religions centred around prophets like Christianity and Islam.) Probably, God is not interested in listening to prayers of human beings but only in their actions.

Religion however insist on prayers, temples, religious rites and so on mainly because all these are designed to benefit the priesthood to earn money.

It is necessary for people to think seriously, in this 21st. century, whether it is not possible for them to refine their actions instead of making up the deficiency by more and more prayer and more and more of outwardly religious flamboyance.
 
If God indeed exists (I believe in God), how come the Russians who were godless for nearly 100 years under communism, did rather well for themselves? Don't say god existed in their hearts, because 2-3 generations of Russians grew up not knowing what religion was, and how people worship.
dear aswin !
work is worship. seiyum thozhile deivam(his profession itself is )GOD.
guruvayurappan
 
You had me MVS for a while, but lost me with the above. You make an evidence free conclusion that this "force" -- about which you have no definitive knowledge as you use the word "whatever" in front of it, cares about human condition and able to bestow wisdom if we satisfy its ego by some sycophantic praying.

We do not live in a binary world neatly divided into "good" and "bad" and also transparent as to which is which. Trying to view the world in such simplistic terms is dangerous, it can lead to some very nasty outcomes for ourselves and those around us.

Cheers!

Nara, Late last night, I did attempt a long reply to what you have stated, but fortunately it has not gone through or it has been edited out as being too long. Be that as it may be, let me just point out:"I really do not know that 'force' or 'God',as generally called, like I know the people around me, to be able to point him (or her or it) out or, come to think of it, introduce him (or her or it) to you personally or on this website". However, this much I do know, as I said earlier: we have not made ourselves; our parents have been merely instrumental in bringing us into this world as per a preordained pattern of nature; we grow up in a social milieu of human beings at a given place and point of time, imbibing the language, culture, the level of knowledge and belief system around us; the language, culture, etc., of the people around us have a historical continuity about them though they do undergo changes over a period; it is possible, nay, probable these days, that we move from our roots to other places and meet with other people, their language, culture, etc., and absorb them also, in the process shaking ourselves out of our earlier moorings; it is possible, or probable these days, to learn about other languages and other cultures through the accumulated knowledge in the world of printed books, digital media and so forth, without having to move physically from our groove; we come to know as we learn about the history of mankind around the world, that we have gone through a 'primitive' stage, a 'medieval' period and now, face 'modern' times; we understand also that owing to the historical continuity factor and disparity in the development of human consciousness around the world, the 'primitive' as well as 'medieval' thought processes and practices still linger with us during this 'modern' times; we understand further that the modern men, with the rapid advancement of science, engineering and technology (the application of 'rational thought' as they call it) in all areas of life over the last few centuries in their part of the world, tend to look down on their less fortunate fellow beings around the world, who are yet to achieve their level of industrial development, material progress, military prowess or business acumen; the modern men in the process have become skeptical and consider that there exists no 'supernatural forces' around as believed in by a large chunk of mankind during the primitive or medieval periods or stages of development; as a result, they have stopped going around the 'tree by the riverside' as in primitive times or building temples for the purpose of praying to the 'idols' or 'deities' or 'saints' or 'sages' as in the medieval period; in short, they question the existence of a 'God' or 'Goddess' and would perhaps like to buy one in their sprawling departmental stores or the numerous marketplaces or the digital media, the 'Amazon.com' or 'E'bay', if it could grant them their fondest wishes in this world and after death!

Well, what the 'modern man', with his rapid advances in 'science, engineering and technology', needs to wake up and realize, even from the comfort and the many luxuries of his existence, is as follows: we have transformed this world, as the ancients or the medieval men knew, but we have not 'made' this world; we can simulate, manipulate or exploit nature, but we cannot 'create something from nothing'; we have transformed our lifestyles to a vastly comfortable one, but not necessarily gained 'peace and harmony' in existence thereby; we are not in absolute control of the 'natural forces' or even the 'artificial inventions' that have transformed our lives; we may have found ways and means to prevent conception, or induce conception in the laboratory, but we are not in control of our own 'life span' even in the present times as it varies; we may disbelieve in a 'soul' within, or the 'ghost in the machine', but we still do not know what lights up our sensory perceptions, our thought processes, our emotions or our intellect; we are still to come to grips with this 'life force' fully; we have only a vague idea of what happens on 'death' except that our 'individual consciousness' ceases to be and our 'dead body' is then disposed of by cremation or burial by the people around; we may disbelieve in a 'soul' undergoing an endless 'cycle of birth and death' till realization comes of the 'universal soul', or the doctrine of 'karma' that is usually associated with it, or in the 'soul' being consigned to a 'heaven' or 'hell' indefinitely as per the 'good' or 'bad' actions performed by it in this life, but we have no other conception of what does happen after death except of the 'cessation of life force' as aforesaid; we believe in a 'social and cultural evolution' -- that of respect for individual life, liberty, fraternity, property, and the like -- and adopt political and economic policies that seek to promote the 'maximum happiness for the maximum number of people', but even in the 'best of times' as of now, we fall woefully short in realizing those goals and as a result, resort to the 'infliction of pain' through 'deprivation of life, liberty, the fruits of one's labor (represented by 'money') and the like in 'vengeance' to 'reinforce' the cherished values, or to 'deter' the individual violator or others generally, or 'reform' and 'rehabilitate' the individual concerned; from such a study of 'social and cultural evolution' we even jump to the conclusion of 'biological evolution' of the 'animals' to 'man' through various stages, even though we have not really witnessed any such evolution or have any clear proof;

In short, this world, this life, still remain a mystery to us, making us wonder,
making us revere, and making us fold our hands and pray to 'that force' (God)!
 
You make me laugh, Yamaka, louder than your own laughter at all the believers! Read this carefully -- in a world that we never made, for a brief while we come and go, not being the efficient cause of ourselves -- oh yes, we may know for sure the proximate cause of our existence, our parents, but not the efficient cause -- and our lives are shaped by others on whom we are dependent at a tender age and later on, when we become conscious of our identity and position in the world, we try to give a meaning, shape or direction to our life, still without being in absolute control of our lives, we know not where we are headed in this life or after death, for death surely comes to all that is born and yet we strut about for a while on the stage of life saying that 'I am a scientist, engineer, technologist' or whatever other profession or occupation or trade or calling to which we may belong, and then we marry, beget children and believe them to be our own (without insisting on DNA matching or other forms of scientific proof), we raise them, educate them and care for them till they are on their own and want them to be good citizens of the world and of course, we visit them on holidays, as you do, if they do not come visiting us -- why? Why all this? It is nonsensical for an evanescent human being in this world not to be struck by the wonder of this world, this life, these thoughts, these feelings and these manifestation of intellectual prowess and still not be able to fold his hands and pray to whatever 'force' that has created all this wonder and seek guidance through this life, brief as it may be and away from the 'anti-thesis', the devil, all that is bad, dark, evil and the ugly side of life that is also evident in this world, some of our own making and others, not of our making at all! Your own knowledge and experience of the world and this life should give you the necessary wisdom to choose the 'good' (God) from the 'bad' (Devil)! Otherwise, you must acquire the wisdom from others through this gift of language!

Hello Mayuram:

Most of what you said can be simply answered by saying

Man evolved over billions of years acquiring all the knowledge, feelings and behaviors etc.

The "Force" is the Nature which behaves under the known and unknown laws of physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, medicine etc.

This "Force" never ever will see the "folded hands" of human beings or hear their pathetic cry for help in the forms of Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans (PPB).

PPB is for the psychologically immature or deficient minds, and to assuage their FEARS of the Unknowns, period... PPB will NEVER be heard by Nature or (non-existent) Human Gods of Purans or the God Force!

"Good" and "Bad" are very subjective terms for most humans.. whatever "good" for you may be "bad" for me and so on....

Your God and Devil is YOUR mental fabrication, a FICTION that comes out of YOUR own brain, the seat of mind.

I need not acquire all the CRAP floating around in the realm of Belief and Faith...

For, I am Neuro-Scientist, a Naturalist following Science Engineering & Technology: Which demands Rational Logical Thinking and Processing.

Please take care of your man-made Gods and Devils...they indeed NEED your patronage!!!ROFL...then, LOL

I am good, and I have never prayed for any thing from any Gods of Abraham, Vedas, Puranas in the past 40 years (all of my adult life when I started THINKING independently!).

I am a living proof that SET will give a successful happy life with excellent family, friends and career. Without any thought of Almighty God, created and fostered by MEN of Vedas and Holy Books (Koran and Bible etc).

Thus I already enjoy my Moksha - the Freedom from Faiths and Superstitions!! Theists just can't think of it in their life!

Peace be with you!

:)
 
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Mr MVS has done a real justification in explaining his stand to Mr Yamaka's quotes.
Application of thought process and perception differs always.

To my knowledge, I have heard the word fabrication in Engineering Industries generally
used quite often. It mainly refers to building metal structures by cutting, bending and
assembling etc. But we call it and debate here as bodily fabrication, verbal fabrication and mental
fabrication.

Imagination is one thing, a reality, it becomes True. When we call it, for some people,
it may be mental fabrication. We cannot achieve anything without putting effort by the
explained and dedicated methods. Sometimes, we have to conquer the ignorance in us, mainly,
we may not know certain things as such, or we would not have come across an event educating
us to know or illuminate us.

No doubt, the modern world is dynamic and at the same it is destructive too. There are many
scientific and technological developments, like telemedicine, etc which may cure diseases either
at the very first instance or it may take little time diagonise its root and cause. We say cancer
is curable and not in all cases.

In olden days, elder people used to say what to eat and what not to eat. But one should not
be troubled or worried with the discrimination of that which is to be taken or eaten and those
which are not be taken or eaten while analyzing it is good for health or not. In the process
it culminates into purity, impurity etc. at times which does not describe reality and it tantamounts
to essentially a mental fabrication unless one has cognizance of the fact in it. Why, sometimes,
in our house, we call a servant to cut down the trees with axis, which are unwanted. Similarly
God has given consciousness to differentiate the subject and object. Good reasoning is but
a pure wisdom. Pure wisdom is the insight that informs us and gives us the directives.

Words, at times, can at best a good vehicle to the meaning that lies beyond; as an index finger
points to an object beyond itself or as a Thoni (small boat), is used to cross a river when there is
a heavy flood, that carries a mean across the river is just discarded once the person reaches the
other shore. That is why, in olden days, elders used to say, some used to chant Narayana
Narayana before crossing the flooded river for safety and once they cross they just say Koorayana.

We are installing an Idol in a Temple with some trust and confidence that the Idol, in the Swaroopam
of Lord Siva, Lord Krishna, Lord Durga, in any form it may be, assuming that will protect us always
give us a prosperous trouble free life, or save us in times of crisis. Here some people term it
as a Mental Fabrication. A person says I get so depressed about life, work is my salvation i.e.
helps me to forget my worries. Like this, it can be concluded that a believing heart is a surrenderd
heart to the supreme power irrespective of the form. Why people run to temple during Sani Peyarchi
period etc (even those who do not believe in God), similarly people having fear of loss in business;
people having unexpected ailment - saving of a person's soul from sin and its consequences,
in other words they want to avoid loss or disaster. Do you call all of them mental fabricators?
It is not a matter of doing anything more than thinking so as to attain salvation. Is it possible to
conclude that every one who has developed faith and trust in God is a mental fabricator and
do not have a conscious or they just make discriminating judgments in their way of life.

So long us one do not fall sick, he or she may not worry about the supreme power and can proudly
say that scientific and technological developments will protect them, but then, even the Doctors,
at times, say it is beyond their reach to save the soul. Narayana.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
It is not a matter of doing anything more than thinking so as to attain salvation. Is it possible to
conclude that every one who has developed faith and trust in God is a mental fabricator and
do not have a conscious or they just make discriminating judgments in their way of life.

when a person see a good things happening in his dream he will enjoy his dream as long as it is. But if he has caught in th jaws of tiger he will immediately wake up from the dream. Like that our intllect is very limited and can not come to conclusion about the all pervading almighty with our limited knowledge. for that we have to wake from the dream of this world.
 
Dear Yamaka,

You wrote
Thus I already enjoy my Moksha - the Freedom from Faiths and Superstitions!! Theists just can't think of it in their life!

Didn't I say many times before that you could already be a Jeevan Mukta with your continuous contemplation of God via Sishupal Syndrome.LOL!!!
 
we may disbelieve in a 'soul' within, or the 'ghost in the machine', but we still do not know what lights up our sensory perceptions, our thought processes, our emotions or our intellect; we are still to come to grips with this 'life force' fully.....

Dear MVS, first of all, I must confess I did not read your post in full, not because I didn't want to nor because I found it uninteresting, but the way it is formatted made it quite tedious (sorry!) for me to read. I request you to break your presentation down to smaller segments and paragraphs, that would be a great favor.

There is much in what you say I agree with. I readily agree there are things that will remain beyond human intellect. But, this limitation is completely irrelevant to the question whether a thing called god exists and if yes whether that god listens to and answers prayers.

In summary, I submit to you, to answer the question raised by the OP with the level confidence you show, you have to do more than say we have mysteries. Speculating on the existence of a force beyond human comprehension is one thing, but to say this force and the mystery surrounding this force is reason enough for us to revere it, and fold our hands in prayer to it, is, to put it mildly, irrational. Silly superstitions are made of stuff like that.

Cheers!
 
Yes. You are totally correct. Dream as you say does not last long.

Intellect and Intelligence are two different entities. Intellect is again
considered generally different from emotion, but at times we use the
word intellect to express or convey the entire human capacity for thought.
Thought is again the response of memory accumulated through
multifarious experiences, whether it is real or imagined, which are shared as
knowledge in our human computer. The capacity of the intellect is just to think.
Thinking varies from person to person and sometimes become limited. If suppose
when the intellect dominates, our activities in both the outer and inner world result
in a direction leading to sometime regret, anxiety, pain etc. Above all, without
intelligence there can be no compassion. Compassion and intelligence moves
shoulder to shoulder or walk together.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
Renuka, the term, 'Moksha' according to Hindus, mean 'liberation from the cycle of birth and death', as you might be well aware. To Yamaka, however, it means, 'freedom from the faiths and superstitions'! In my opinion, what Yamaka needs to be to be a real 'jeevan mukta', as you put it, is to be, 'free from this strong identification with his ego, the sense of being a 'neuro-scientist' and 'naturalist', and great attachment to all that he thinks as what he stands for'!
 
Nara, Thanks for not reading my post in full since on a second reading of it myself, it does appear to be 'long' and 'tedious' reading, as you put it, in its present format. I shall try to be more concise in future. However, I do think that both you and others have extended the ambit of this blog from 'God exists' to one of whether 'God listens to and answers our prayers' also! I am guilty of it too by reason of my last para (at entry -1761).

Be that as it may, you say that speculating on the existence of a 'force' beyond human comprehension is one thing and going further, like 'revering' it, folding our hands in 'prayer' to it, just because of the the 'mystery' surrounding it, is another thing altogether and that it would be 'irrational' and also, 'silly' superstitions are made of stuff like that. I would very much like you to read Adi Sankaracharya's 'Bhaja Govindam' and see for yourself whether or not that universally acknowledged great thinker himself does not recommend such a course of action for our guidance in this life.
 
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Be that as it may, you say that speculating on the existence of a 'force' beyond human comprehension is one thing and going further, like 'revering' it, folding our hands in 'prayer' to it, just because of the the 'mystery' surrounding it, is another thing altogether and that it would be 'irrational' and also, 'silly' superstitions are made of stuff like that. I would very much like you to read Adi Sankaracharya's 'Bhaja Govindam' and see for yourself whether or not that universally acknowledged great thinker himself does not recommend such a course of action for our guidance in this life.

How you read, with what preconceived notion you read, and what is the aim of reading is important. If you read the same book with disdain for the author, and with an idea of poking holes in the argument, or to show your superior knowledge of the subject it will just end up being exchange of attack and counter attack.

I am not saying that any opinion is right or wrong. It is the belief and assumptions that determine the results.
I think none of us have seen GOD, and we are not going to see with our eyes in this life time. It is in the definition of the word God, just as we are not going to see INFINITY.

So the arguments can keep going.
 
Yamaka, I read with interest what you have to say. You say that the 'force' that I was referring to is 'Nature', which is bound by its own laws, some of which have been studied and documented in our various branches of learning, but others still remaining unknown. You say that that 'force' cannot 'see' our folded hands or hear our 'pathetic' cries arising from our 'fears of the unknown', in the form of prayers, pujas, and bhajans (PPB). Why? Is it because 'Nature' is not endowed with our means of 'sensory perceptions' or our kind of 'intellect' to respond to our PPB? Are they the only means? If it is an 'insentient' force, as you think it is, what made you spend almost your lifetime (four decades -- ever since you became an independent thinker) studying it as a 'Naturalist' when you could very well have been satisfied as a 'neuro-scientist' with studying just how the 'neurons' in our body are carrying and transmitting all our 'fears' to produce suitable secretion of hormones and reactions to allay and counter the same?

According to our ancient sages, as recorded in the Upanishads', the concluding part of the 'Vedas', this 'Nature' ('Prakriti') itself, and the energy pervading it ('Purusha'), are the manifestation of 'Brahman', the 'Ultimate Reality', but then you have no respect for the 'Vedas', 'Upanishads', or the like, being a modern-day scientist, who does not think much of the ancients, or their wisdom, in the light of their 'limited knowledge' during those days!

And you say that the thesis, 'God' and the anti-thesis, 'Devil' are just our own 'mental fabrications', a 'fiction' that comes out of our own 'brain', the seat of our 'mind', but that you have nothing to do with such 'fabrications' as you are a 'neuro-scientist', a 'naturalist' following 'science, engineering and technology' (SET), that require 'rational', 'logical' 'thinking' and 'processing'. I have no problem with your being either a 'neuro-scientist' or a 'naturalist', but how is it that I detect a 'sneering contempt' in you for those 'lesser mortals' like us, who 'patronize' 'man-made' 'Gods and Devils' unlike you, who does not care at all for all that 'CRAP' 'floating in the realm of 'belief' and 'faith', especially when your own 'SET' has a number of 'hypotheses' and 'theories' that are 'man-made' and cannot be verified or proved in our lifetime, like the 'big bang' hypothesis or the 'steady state' one, in respect of the origin of the Universe, or the one relating to 'evolution', for the origin of life on this earth and its growth, for instance ?

Lastly, why do you think that a 'successful' or 'happy' life, surrounded by family and friends, is possible only for the 'SET' people like you and that it will 'elude' the grasp of the 'believers' in God, fostered by the 'Vedas', the 'Torah', the 'Bible', the 'Koran' or the like? As a 'rationalist' do you think that 'believers' in God' are all necessarily 'believers' in 'superstitions'? The vehemence that you show to justify your way of life, I should say, I have not found among the 'faithful' among us!

Let me conclude: "There is no need to believe that God exists" or, for that matter, "Fold you hands or kneel down and pray to God", if you do not feel like it, or think it right, because no one is 'compelling' you in this 'liberal' kind of society, but you need not 'laugh out loud (LOL)' at those who do for you are also a mere 'mortal' only, who cannot change his 'destiny', in the sense of your own limitations, during your brief life on this earth like any other! would recommend that you read the "Vairagya Satakam" by 'Bhartrahari'I
 
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.... 'tedious' reading, as you put it, in its present format.
Thanks for your understanding MSV, and once again it is not the content that I think was tedious, it was my limitation to keep focus when reading long paragraphs that was the culprit for the tediousness.

I would very much like you to read Adi Sankaracharya's 'Bhaja Govindam' and see for yourself whether or not that universally acknowledged great thinker himself does not recommend such a course of action for our guidance in this life.
MSV, I submit to you, this is also a fallacy, one called "appeal to authority". However great a thinker Adi Sankara may have been, just because he said something does not automatically make it true. The greatest physicist known to man was Sir Isaac Newton and he was not always right.

Dear MSV, I have looked long and hard, I have not seen an iota of evidence to put my faith in this Baja Govindam stuff. So I just can't accept mere assertions on face value based on nothing more than faith in the brilliance of somebody you revere.

You do make a clear distinction between (a) "God Exists" and (b) God listens to and answers prayers, this is good. While my answer to (b) is a definite no, to (a) it is a qualified no as a negative cannot be proved by empirical means. However, let us first tackle (b), then we can move to (a).

Please make your case, deferring for the moment the dubiousness of the assertion Adi Sankara was the author of Baja Govindam -- what is the basis upon which the message of Baja Govindam must be taken as anything more than mere delusion?

Cheers!
 
Renuka, the term, 'Moksha' according to Hindus, mean 'liberation from the cycle of birth and death', as you might be well aware. To Yamaka, however, it means, 'freedom from the faiths and superstitions'! In my opinion, what Yamaka needs to be to be a real 'jeevan mukta', as you put it, is to be, 'free from this strong identification with his ego, the sense of being a 'neuro-scientist' and 'naturalist', and great attachment to all that he thinks as what he stands for'!


Dear Mayur,

I was just teasing him.I do that all the time with Yams.
Anway I liked what you wrote.Its really hard for anyone to give up identification with name,race,religion,profession etc.Singing Chidananda Roopam Shivoham Shivoham its not easy.
 
A wonderful story : "GOD Exists"...

This is one of the best explanations of why GOD allows pain 'n suffering that I have seen.
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut 'n his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.

They talked about so many things 'n various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of GOD, the barber said: "I don't believe that GOD exists."
"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that GOD doesn't exist. Tell me, if GOD exists, would there be so many sick people? would there be abandoned children?

If GOD existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving GOD who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument
The barber finished his job 'n the customer left the shop.Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair 'n an untrimmed beard. He looked 'n unkempt. The customer turned back 'n entered the barbershop again 'n he said to the barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber.
"I am here, 'n I am a barber. 'n I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair 'n untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.
"Exactly!- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! GOD, too exist!

What happens, is, people don't go to him 'n do not look for him. That's why there is so much pain 'n suffering in the world.

While I won't delve deep into the intricacies of God's existence, I can't but help wondering whether God **really** helps all those who unconditionally seek Him. He gives troubles and miseries to those who need succour, but He blesses rogues and villains at times. Strange indeed are His ways!!

The Russians lived without God for nearly 100 years, the Chinese still do not follow any faith. The western nations have lukewarm religious belief, if at all. Yet, God (??) has allowed them to prosper. Many Indians profess deep faith in God and religion, yet look at the state of our country. Wish we had a dedicated God to save India exclusively.

Personally, I have deep faith in His mysteries, but of late, my faith has been severely shaken by an unending series of sad and unhappy events. Some people advise me to change my residence for a change in fortunes. Some advise me to even change my religion (LOL). Right now, I'm hoping God will be kind enough to shower His mercies on me, I'm wondering if I should consider my trials and tribulations as blessings rather than troubles.

Only time will tell..
 
While I won't delve deep into the intricacies of God's existence, I can't but help wondering whether God **really** helps all those who unconditionally seek Him. He gives troubles and miseries to those who need succour, but He blesses rogues and villains at times. Strange indeed are His ways!!

The Russians lived without God for nearly 100 years, the Chinese still do not follow any faith. The western nations have lukewarm religious belief, if at all. Yet, God (??) has allowed them to prosper. Many Indians profess deep faith in God and religion, yet look at the state of our country. Wish we had a dedicated God to save India exclusively.

Personally, I have deep faith in His mysteries, but of late, my faith has been severely shaken by an unending series of sad and unhappy events. Some people advise me to change my residence for a change in fortunes. Some advise me to even change my religion (LOL). Right now, I'm hoping God will be kind enough to shower His mercies on me, I'm wondering if I should consider my trials and tribulations as blessings rather than troubles.

Only time will tell..


If you unconditionally seek 'Him' why are you wondering if 'God' helps?

There are no entitlements for anyone because they think they have faith in God. You cant appease your way to get favors :-)

Changing religion is like changing your clothes - it will not solve any of your problems.

"God" will shower his or her or its blessings regardless of whether you pray or not. And if you pray, the benefit if any goes to everyone including your enemies and athiests :-)

Bottomline: Forget God - just address your issues using 'God given' intellect & abilities by taking full responsibility for your life. If you want clarity and focus you can consider doing prayers but that is just to achieve clarity. No one including "god" is going to solve your problems, only you can do so by taking 100% responsibility for your actions and decisions ..

All the best..
 
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