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How and when will India become a truely developed nation?

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Dear Hari:
What an completely honest answer! I think you spoke for majority of us who have the same thoughts.
As you have rightly said, many of us are 'arm-chair quarterback' (to borrow a typical American saying!! - the Quarterback is the guy who runs the offence in the American Football; it is neither rugby nor a football!! well, that is another story!). Talk is cheap and it comes easily without moving a finger!
I guess in order for the 'politics as usual' to be annihilated, we would need a revolution at the grass-roots. However, it would be difficult in a country like India, where we are separated by languages, customs, castes and what not.

you stumped me here sridhar, fair and square.

i dont have an answer ;on second thoughts, i do have some "possible answers" but i would have to admit that i cant try them myself.

for starters, one of my possible answer is "we need honest, incorruptible people in politics".

i can say it very easily and walk off; but am i willing to set a personal example here by taking the plunge?

no ! i cant.

possibly i dont have the rights to cavil but i do arm-chair criticism, because that comes to me easily ; naturally.

since i know my own personal shortcomings, i try not to complain too much ; too often.

i try to be the honest citizen that i can be, nothing beyond.
 
I think that the most evil aspect of life in India that is holding back everything is corruption. If corruption is eradicated/reduced, I think the country will rapidly advance, as corruption tends to promote selfishness and communal/ethnic divisions.

I think that the most efficient way to tackle this is to form a NGO/non-profit organization with silent/hidden membership that can start exposing all the corrupt practices, starting at the local levels. For this one needs some courageous front line mantle bearers and a large membership, whose numbers should be constantly advertised in the media to bring pressure. Gandhian ways/principles should be loudly adopted and broadcasted as this will provide the necessary political cover.

Just a thought.........

Regards,
KRS
 
A path to developed Nation's status.

I just want to give an example only. I am a admirer of some of the aspects of Indonesia.

I am sorry I am going to quote a small paragraph from somebody else's letter to the local news paper the Jakarta Post. I forgot the name, i remembered the content only.

Please compare the below with any of our Cities....

The first impressions of the travel to Jakarta.

When you land and come out of the flight, you will be greeted with smile, and your immigration process will be smooth without eying you as if you are a thief, next checks are done with respect and you go out. You are bombarded with so many taxi drivers, and you will see a clean road to Jakarta city and smiling gate keepers and polite smiling receptionist in the hotel and very polite bell boy who will take you to the room.

You come out and you go to any mall, any shopping centre, and check all the goods, you will be received with a smile and even after you spend one hour, you go without buying any goods, you will be sent off with smile.

You talk to anybody, you will receive the respectful form of greetings in shops with strangers in work place everywhere.

The roads are clean. The wash rooms are very clean. If you are in the road, if you want to use public toilets, you have to go to Pump Benzene (petrol stations) and the toilets are remarkably clean.

Even the illiterate persons will hesitate to spit before you when you walk down, you wont find stares like from an hunted animals. They are more corrupted, but follow the happenings here from the last tuesday especially, one wire tapped conversations bringing the elite of the elite to the ground. Hurray to KPK (corruption eradication commission).

It all boils down to how the kids are treated there. You have to pay attention here.

If they meet any strangers, they automatically give respect (Even though they seriously are watching TV)
When they talk, they talk with full attention and utmost respect..
And NEVER NEVER see any self confident, arrogant, kid's answer (look at out kids)...

These kids will become tomorrow's citizen...

So, My humble opinion is, we are thinking, we really want our India to be a truly developed nation,

We should teach our kids now the value of respect and social relationships.
We should be the model, (don't spit on the road while walking, pour enough water after using the public toilet, never leave the cig buds in the toilet, flesh it, find a purse try to give to the owner or police,many many things like that... small things make lot of difference.)

Respect in conversation with elders.

We should start ourselves and teach our kids. It should start from us.

It is possible there, as they don't have divisions like us. So it is better we start to have one common. Hinduism. Without any common thread, it is very difficult to achieve the collective goal.

The other reason is that they don't have the crazy out of life cinemas, and hero workships...

Students actively participate in demos if govt does anything wrong. But the demo is done at One Particular place. They never spoil the common man's day to day life.

They are better than us in GDP. Quality of life is much greater than us if we compare one to one. ex driver to driver.

There are other problems here, but compared to the way they are moving ahead, they really are in the highways.

Why I mentioned Indonesia, this is 4th largest populated country, Muslim country,Natural Disaster's prone country. Not as intelligent as we are in skill sets. But you see, their education produces patriotic citizens. Now if we go to our home ask our kids to sing the national anthem,

HOW MANY OF US, our KIDS KNOW IT FULLY AND WITH MEANING.......

What our education system produces, selfish, money minded individuals with no respect to elders (most of 'em) and focus is so self centered they easily abandon their parents!!!. We need a review on that..

Lets start from ourselves, Lets start from our kids.....For a better tomorrow.
 
Dr Abdul Kalam also has been telling the same on various occasions.

1. Social Responsibility

2. Politeness and Respect

3. Grooming today's children into tomorrow's best citizens.

I appreciate you for sharing your personal experiences here.
 
re dr. shiva ayyadurai

this article is from today's online hindu paper

The Hindu : Sci-Tech : CSIR scheme to woo NRI scientist backfires

what is interesting is the readers' views on the subject.

these type of news were very common when i was a teenager in the 1960s. infact r.k. narayan had a very high profile article in the hindu at that time, of the disappointed nri scientist going back to the u.s.

this was over 40 years ago and much water has flown under the bridge.

personally i think both are at faults, without any prejudice.

the returning nri, i think, often tends to forget the reality of indian culture - respect and overt reverence for those at the top. in fact, even here in this forum, we see that attitude, i think, when someone invokes elders etc.

to me, i would rather live without such pranams. not because i am against showing disrespect. i feel, that that type of age-position-respecting, results in an artificial blinder, where frank exchange of views become a difficult proposition.

whereas, the u.s. returned nri might think of his csir boss in terms of equal league, that may not be the case with the boss, to whom it is still important, for his assistants to stand up when he arrives in a room and 'sir sir' for all his statements.

the boss is also not at fault, because that is the only world he knows, and he has worked all these years, paid his dues, to reach this level.

either one of the folks, should have cultural sensitivity ie the ability to appreciate how communications can be established to a level of familiarity without crossing cultural boundaries.

the nri scientist will have no such issues with his u.s. boss.
 
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Dear Kunjuppu:
Very good observations. Friends, please bear with some of my 'war-time' stories ..... (!!)
1. When I used to work for GE (many years ago than I care to remember!), I was in the Corporate HQ and I remember our Sr. VP (he was overseeing a whole sector - sales worth over $8 billion) popping into our offices just to say 'hi' or to ask my boss if he could come by his office for a few minutes!! He remembered all our names!! Can you imagine this ever happening in India! During my visits to Chennai, I happened to visit some offices and I noticed people standing up even for a small-time boss when he come by!! This doesn't happen in the USA. As Kunjuppu said, you address your boss, boss's boss or whoever by their first name and no reverence is attached (that doesn't mean we are disrespectful). Debates over issues are highly encouraged and disagreements are encouraged as long as you back them by facts or your analysis.

2. A good friend of mine who also used to have a very good job in GE (Ph.D. in Thermo Dynamics), quit the job (late '70s) to return to India to be patriotic. He was put into something called "scientists pool' (I forget the exact wording) and was treated like dirt; no projects, no research. Finally, disillusioned and discouraged, he returned to the USA.


this article is from today's online hindu paper

The Hindu : Sci-Tech : CSIR scheme to woo NRI scientist backfires

what is interesting is the readers' views on the subject.

these type of news were very common when i was a teenager in the 1960s. infact r.k. narayan had a very high profile article in the hindu at that time, of the disappointed nri scientist going back to the u.s.

this was over 40 years ago and much water has flown under the bridge.

personally i think both are at faults, without any prejudice.

the returning nri, i think, often tends to forget the reality of indian culture - respect and overt reverence for those at the top. in fact, even here in this forum, we see that attitude, i think, when someone invokes elders etc.

to me, i would rather live without such pranams. not because i am against showing disrespect. i feel, that that type of age-position-respecting, results in an artificial blinder, where frank exchange of views become a difficult proposition.

whereas, the u.s. returned nri might think of his csir boss in terms of equal league, that may not be the case with the boss, to whom it is still important, for his assistants to stand up when he arrives in a room and 'sir sir' for all his statements.

the boss is also not at fault, because that is the only world he knows, and he has worked all these years, paid his dues, to reach this level.

either one of the folks, should have cultural sensitivity ie the ability to appreciate how communications can be established to a level of familiarity without crossing cultural boundaries.

the nri scientist will have no such issues with his u.s. boss.
 
valid subject to discuss-

India is full of contrast--best and worst in all respect--v got to regulate it/flow
what is needed is--how to pick and give power to the Best so that crooks and wrong policies r snubbed

ratio of 'crooks:wise' --must b more or less the same say in all countries--let us take US Vs India for comparison
here 'wise' r given more importance and all preferences ,so that crooks r always afraid/snubbed in many developed countries[that is how they become developed]

In India --it is not that v lack 'wise' persons or good work cannot b done
but our polity and law[worst in enforcement] always give power and administration to crooks --at the top of pyramid of power/governance

so in India--kings r stripped and donkeys r crowned

in other words v gave power to wrong persons and where would right persons can go?
only place left out is --wrong place

problem in India--Wrong persons r in Right places and Right persons r in Wrong places--

v don't know if India is developed,how can these wrong person can create and recognize it?
____________
secondly,v r encouraging egocentric than work centric
even at high place of intellectual work--many wrong people r occupying high post
who work under the influence of others and corruption--S&T r also affected

v r too possessive and selfish -hardly respect right and good work of any....right from home to country administration

--v develop on one hand and on the other hand v destroy,
nullifying the progress

if attitude is changed--it will be developed overnight

------Empower Right and snub crooks----
 
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i wish to refer to two articles in the tamil edition of chennaionline.

these are two articles, each a tamil lady, with her own experiences, on our journey towards being an ultimately developed society.

the first by nageswari annamalai, brings out one instance of manual labour ie house painting.

she is on a visit to the u.s. and sees her daughter's house painted. and compares this with her own experiences in india.

it is interesting to note the value placed by society for manual labour.

maybe, when manual labour is considered as good as, or better a profession, than white collar, that is one of the indicators of having reached a mature well developed status?

?????? ??????? ???????? : ????????? ???????? ????

the other article is very poignant. it is written by seethalakshmi, a social worker.

she narrates her experiences in rural tamil nadu, in the 1950s as a young social worker.

her experiences in a small village, the inherent divisions through casteism, and the efforts in those days, not only to safeguard the victories of the independence movement, but to capitalize to synergize the masses towards an improved society - all of this noted with personal anecdotes.

it is also interesting to note the presence of periyar and the dravidian movement in the background. i think as an urban person, i can never understand the deep division of the tamil society's brahmin non-brahmin divide.

myself, coming from kerala, even though the divisions were equally deep, the brahmins were soon upended by the christians, so that they never achieved the predominance in civil social sectors like the tamil brahmins did.

?????? ??????? ???????? : ?????????? - 17
 
you stumped me here sridhar, fair and square.

i dont have an answer ;on second thoughts, i do have some "possible answers" but i would have to admit that i cant try them myself.

for starters, one of my possible answer is "we need honest, incorruptible people in politics".

i can say it very easily and walk off; but am i willing to set a personal example here by taking the plunge?

no ! i cant.

possibly i dont have the rights to cavil but i do arm-chair criticism, because that comes to me easily ; naturally.

since i know my own personal shortcomings, i try not to complain too much ; too often.

i try to be the honest citizen that i can be, nothing beyond.



Dear Hari,

My words were only intended to bring ideas on "How" to solve or attempt to solve our current situation. I will give my self a no ball to make sure, no one is stumped, but definitely put you back on the crease. "We" have a match to play and "we" need as many as possible to reach anywhere near the objective.

Well, looking back at the history of USA few hundred years ago, and now, haven't they achieved inspite of having people with pure selfish ends, racial divide, varied ethnic and cultural backgrounds? How different are we today? If we have the motivation, clear objectives and
proper implementation, cant we get there and beyond?

My motive is to encourage anyone on this thread - to bring about the motivation, spell out objectives and give guidelines for proper implementation. We have a few drops till now...look forward to the safe melting of glaciers and healthy rain to pour here.
 
while US rose from ashes and social disorder,v have moved the other way

-this must b due to too much empowerment of wrong men,
-and money is scandalizing everything, instead of using it for progressive purpose
 
this is an interesting fast read, yet deeply thought provoking article, comparing the usa and china.

i am sure, we can find similarities and what we should be doing.

Five Things the U.S. Can Learn from China - TIME

the interesting part, is how the chinese look after the old age folks. we have been discussing that in this forum.

also about chinese savings rate. comparable to ours, i presume.

but interesting of all is their vision of the country from their leaders, and how they quickly go about from planning to implementing.

perhaps, we could learn something there.

corruption - appears to be high in both countries.

education - similar with our urban environment. not so much re rural. also, the government has a vision, to produce not brilliant students, but a large body of educated researchers - much similar to the end result of our quota system has done in tamil nadu

the author's note has the tone of wishful thinking - remembering what the usa was in the 19th and early 20th century, and a rueful recognition, that not only it is no more such now, but unlikely to regain those qualities.

the usa has proved those who predicted its decline, wrong. has constantly reinvented itself unlike europe. perhaps, it will surprise us again, by being reinvogarated after the current recession. :)
 
yes and maybe. it is quite possible both uk and usa will come down to the level of india, judging by the way, they are managing their economies.

right now, obama is in beijing, not quite with the literal begging bowl, but close to it.

the biggest elephant in the room today is china. just let us look around us. from where i sit, almost everything in my room, starting with this pc components, to the furniture, to the tv, to the lamps, to the materials the house is made - yes - all come from china.

china, today has enough factories to provide the whole world with whatever it wants, at a price and quality to match. let us not kid ourselves, china makes good quality products at half the price.

for example: in medical imaging, today the japanese, dutch and american medical imaging systems are threatened by chinese prices and quality. the next xray, ctscan or mri could be from a machine made in china. cheap. reliable. 1/3 the price.

the usa can only sell fruits and meat to china. canada only minerals. and that too competition from australia. europe only fashion items. uk on scotch whiskey. there is not much that china wants to buy from abroad.

what can you sell a country which makes everything? including for itself?

the usa can ofcourse, print more notes, and devalue the dollar to the newspaper on the street. that way, it get rid of its trillions of debt and starts all over again.

today, in the toronto globe, there is this report, that General Electric (GE) wants to set up joint aircraft engine factory in China. again in one single leapfrogging step, technology from the west is transferred to the chinese. technology that took 100 years to develop.

airbus is building A320 in china.

the chinese watch this, then copy, and make the same at cheaper prices. then innovate and produce better products, at still cheaper prices.

they imitated japan to their path of success.

where does india fit in all these plans? i don't know.

except i am sure, when the uk and usa income levels fall to the level of india, i won't hopefully be in this planet :)
 
hi all.
even american national flag is made in china...can u imagine?
i saw beautiful ganesha/ and god's muthies are made in china
and sell in USA...the beautiful sri bhagavad gita book
published by ISCKON (hare krishna publication) printed in china
and sell it in USA(bhagavad as it is)...where are we now?
our god's/goddess muthies are very beautiful and cheaper /good
quality made in china...available in USA...what about our qulaity/
price....its competetive world....we have to learn from china...

regards
tbs
 
Dear Sri tbs Ji,

This is not magic. China, being a communist, centrally controlled nation state, is able to manufacture as per the dictates of the capital from the west.

India, being swated by the Communist parties and their influence on manufacturing, is PREVENTED from doing the same.

This is not something that India needs to 'learn' from China. Our entrepreneurs are better than the Chinese, who generally have myopic visions. This is all about our Government's policies in India, as well as the populace understanding what makes the nation wealthier.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Chinese industry get support from the Government which India will never even attempt to match.

Chinese currency is artificially kept at attractive levels to benefit exporters where as Indian currency is market determined except interventions by RBI

There are no strict Labour laws in China. People work for 12 hours a day whereas Indian Factories Act prevents us from working more than 48 hours per week. Providend fund, ESI and other regulations are also further complicating the matter. Employing child labour is a crime in India and employer could be arrested & put behind bars. But China has no strict regulations on all these things.

Infracture in China is much better resulting lower transaction costs where Indian Infrastructure needs lot of improvement.

Mindset of Chinese Government is look outside whereas Indian Government is always keeps self sufficiency as a goal.

But things are changing now. Nokia's Indian operations (near Sriperumbudur,Chennai) has overtaken Chinese operations of Nokia in volumes.

China has no answer to Tata's Nano car. Renault Nissan is building a low cost car with Bajaj where as China is not thinking on these lines.

India will grow on value for money proposition and in the long term it can sustain the business. Whereas Chinese will go mass production and cheap price. Both will have their own segments in the market.
 
Greetings to all,

As we are comparing ourselves with China, I wish to mention here my experience with Chinese people as owners & middle level executives.

1. They are successful business community in abroad. Because, they help each other. Example, if two Chinese do the same business, in case one has problem the other helps.

2. The community is VERY particular to deal with their own community. When I wanted to buy a fan, my chinese colleague took me to his chinese friend's shop.

3. What I have seen, they are more interested to start a business than working under one.

4. They are very hard working people like us. They like our skills and admit that we are much talented than them. As for as middle management is concerned they prefer us as Managers.

But, In our case only few are inclined to do business and rest of us happy to work in a MNC or in a company.

Back home, the business is controlled by politicians. It will be very difficult to get rid of the political clout.
 
venkat, my answers are in blue ok?

please do not treat this as personal, but i do have to go borderline comments. as you are aware, i have a personal highest regard for you :)

Chinese industry get support from the Government which India will never even attempt to match.

i am not sure if this is true. our industries like i.t. are given huge subsidies to enable them to compete abroad and have good pay packets for their staff.

Chinese currency is artificially kept at attractive levels to benefit exporters where as Indian currency is market determined except interventions by RBI

what is stopping india from doing this? why do we always come up with reasons as to why others do better? why not us imitate? japan did the same currency manipulation for over 25 years. the west complained, but nobody can do anything if there is a mindset to it. there is no reason why india did not peg ruppee to the dollar except, what i think as false pride.

There are no strict Labour laws in China. People work for 12 hours a day whereas Indian Factories Act prevents us from working more than 48 hours per week. Providend fund, ESI and other regulations are also further complicating the matter. Employing child labour is a crime in India and employer could be arrested & put behind bars. But China has no strict regulations on all these things.

true. but indian labour laws are not enforced, i think, to the extent they should be. there is no child labour in china. this is a reflection of corruption in china. india has about the same level, i think, of corruption. but this is not an issue for development pace.

Infracture in China is much better resulting lower transaction costs where Indian Infrastructure needs lot of improvement.

right on!! why cannot we do the type of large scale humungous projects. i have been to china, and seen it. there are more skyscrapers in shanghai than new york. between shanghai and nyc there are more skyscrapers, than all of usa.

Mindset of Chinese Government is look outside whereas Indian Government is always keeps self sufficiency as a goal.

ok. but this should not stop from manufacturing and growing.

But things are changing now. Nokia's Indian operations (near Sriperumbudur,Chennai) has overtaken Chinese operations of Nokia in volumes.

venkat, let us compare overall. not onesies and twosies.

China has no answer to Tata's Nano car. Renault Nissan is building a low cost car with Bajaj where as China is not thinking on these lines.

again, have you heard of byd (build your dreams) if you want to mention one company. this is the world leader in electric cars. they plan to flood the world with their own battery technology in two years. watch it. watch the americans who invest in it

BYD Auto,Build Your Dreams

India will grow on value for money proposition and in the long term it can sustain the business. Whereas Chinese will go mass production and cheap price. Both will have their own segments in the market.

don't believe this venkat. china produces more high value stuff than us. they also produce low value stuff. china is the current factory for the whole world. but chinese intellect is as much good as us, if not better. this is absolutely false.

i have one answer.

LEADERSHIP.

china, starting with 1980s, had deng zhao ping, who had a vision for china. this vision was sustained by the next generation of leaders.

add to it, the dictatorship focussed on development. inspite of corruption, they were able to deliver. fast and rapid and quality.

what we sadly lack is leadership and vision.
 
Thanks Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Basically we are into manufacturing business and we are visiting china regularly.

We are continuously evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of China and we are very much convinced that nothing can stop China from growing.

At the same time, Indian industry is creating a niche segment and will continue to prosper. But we can never beat China particularly in the hardware sector.

But India will continue to prosper in the software and services sector.

Our Government cannot match China since we have a democratic set up with rule of law whereas China is blessed with dictatorship.

Any way both the countries will grow in its own way for the next few decades.

All the best
 
nice to go thru above statements and worth noting on China

let us take good of China and leave the bad--
I agree with the statement --India lacks Leadership and gut feel,not that we lack knowledge
we have many good exp S&T and in admin but leadership and patronage to lead and build --good projects is lacking--

US and west developed based on Project leadership to build nation--[not chiefly on knowledge]they made simple ideas into practice
we are very much afraid of 'failure' one of the component that usually occur in projects--fearing failure we do involve in projects
We Indians do not take leadership into any area of work and product development and projects,,we continue to copy and sell ,

attitude must change from home to nation
 
Thanks Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Basically we are into manufacturing business and we are visiting china regularly.

We are continuously evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of China and we are very much convinced that nothing can stop China from growing.

At the same time, Indian industry is creating a niche segment and will continue to prosper. But we can never beat China particularly in the hardware sector.

But India will continue to prosper in the software and services sector.

Our Government cannot match China since we have a democratic set up with rule of law whereas China is blessed with dictatorship.

Any way both the countries will grow in its own way for the next few decades.

All the best
hi RV sir,
in USA ..every thing/every store filled with chinamayam....even
small safety pins are made in china...all walmart/ target products are basically made in china...2 main points...
1, china is a communist nation and lack of english..more on mandarin..
2 india is a democratic republic nation..english is main communication language...still we lack in manufacturing
sector....may be lack of discipline/politically corrupted system...
in india system never works..my 2 cents..

regards
tbs
 
hi RV sir,
in USA ..every thing/every store filled with chinamayam....even
small safety pins are made in china...all walmart/ target products are basically made in china...2 main points...
1, china is a communist nation and lack of english..more on mandarin..
2 india is a democratic republic nation..english is main communication language...still we lack in manufacturing
sector....may be lack of discipline/politically corrupted system...
in india system never works..my 2 cents..

regards
tbs

Wallmart and other super market majors in USA and Europe have already opened sourcing shops in India and are visiting places like Tirupur regularly to source Garments.

We are suppliers to Bosch operations in India and Bosch Germany has started sourcing auto-components from India. Bosch-Germany feels it is better to do business in India then China since there is inbuilt quality consciousness. Auto components is being exported in large volumes from India.

Indian exports particularly textiles, auto-components etc are doing very well in international market. In my experience, Europeans prefer Indian goods as compared to North America.

Still China is doing extremely well in several sectors which where India has still to catch up.

All the best
 
not sure if this below article is funny. i am quite sure the chairman of the bank of china did not find it humourous but i had a chuckle.

it just another proof of the old story: if you borry 5000 dollars from the bank, you are at their mercy. if you borrow 5000000 dollars from the bank, then the bank is at your mercy.

Calls rise for new global currency - The Globe and Mail

china has all these huge factories producing everything for everyone. cheaper than anyone else.

so much so, that in the u.s., companies like walmart (there is an interesting t.v. show on this one of how walmart forced u.s. based operations of companies to close & open them in china, to take advantage of cheap labour) have stranglehold on supplies from china.

they order such huge quantities so that the factories are dependent on these orders, get paid in u.s. dollars and with the thinnest margins.

ie china is sacrificing its current generation's prosperity to build a base for the future. this model was initiated by japan, and copied successfully by taiwan, korea, singapore etc.

except with china, the dollar amounts are so huge and lopsided in china's favour. the u.s. has run huge deficits, and in order to fund them, produced iou's.

guess what? who ends up buying these iou's? yes. china, as nobody else has the u.s. dollar reserves to buy these.

china could stop buying these u.s. treasury bills, but then, the dollar would fall, and all the trillions of dollars that china has would be worthless paper money.

quite funny, if you are not china.

the u.s. is not too concerned. they have big domestic problems and two wars to finance. no way are they going to raise taxes on the americans to get this funded. so the alternative is to make the printing presses work overtime.

there will be a lot of greenbacks floating in the world.

the last time it happened was in the 1970s, with the expense of the vietnam war, basically funded by the rest of the world, causing double digit inflation throughout the world in the 70s, and early 80s.

atleast this is the way i understand it.

india should watch out too. we have i think today about 450 billion u.s. dollar reserves. this is hard earned money. better to switch these to gold too.
 
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