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How and when will India become a truely developed nation?

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Ms.renuka [what is ji = in tamil?..pl let me know,i am not too good in tamil]

I am just a critic for better vision--i understand the problem of India--although it is well /good at near the top of pyramid in political and some S&T....[political stability and unity is good and v r able to send many satellites and moon+....].but when it comes to internet connectivity and communications at BOP[bottom of pyramid--its is not looked into,... it is not trickling down the pyramid--that is why it is felt more/pronounced

....to b contd

Dear Siva,

do i really have to explain?
i think Ji is of Northern indian origin used as a form of respect.
i dont know much Hindi as it is not used in Malaysia.I only know:

English
Bahasa Malaysia(Malay)
Tamil
Sanskrit

renuka
 
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siva,

your post #96 is great on ideas.

in the past we have found that we have had great ideas generating out of discussions.

the issue came to implementation. ie who will bell the cat?

since the time i came, there has been talk of setting up a fund, to pay for the poor of our community for health care or education.

so far, all i have seen is there is an absence of participants, uable or unwilling to give the time to convert the ideas to action.

the only quick translation from thought to deed, is the swayamvaram stuff. this i attribute solely to the efforts of swami, rvr, praveen and a few other folks' goodwill. it probably reflects the urgency of this matter more than anything else.

thank you.
 
@ renuka ji
i just want to know ji equivalent in tamil---not in hindi[i am somewhat good in hindi,as i had been using this in n.indian context-i wish to use in Tamil ,hence the Q to u--sorry for trouble]


ok let 's move further....

@kunjuppu ji
thanks--s --i am in favor of putting in practice
v must b having many views--but it is important b to pragmatic--in small way at least to start with

I also join u in appreciating all who have taken tremendous efforts in conducting -swayamwaram--and they continue to do in conducting another one in Bengaluru

i was an immg to Canada sometime ago[1996/7]--but returned after 6 months of stay, and delay in settling in Toronto...
 
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Dear Siva,

i manage to get an equivalent in Tamil.
the word is AVARGAL.

alternatively males can be addressed as Shri.(sanskrit origin)
females can be address as Sowbhagyavathi, Shrimathi(sanskrit origin)

renuka
 
@renuka

thanks --for AVARGAL ,i thought of that --but then i had doubts--other have sanskrit/hindi origin

thanks
 
there r hundreds of innovative solutions[res papers,innovations published]--for many day to day problems,hardly these r taken into considerations--there is no effort for innovations at BOP application--but only at the top it is somewhat applied--media and public r also to b blamed

many innovative solutions/projects can be taken up by --Business and industrialists to convert into potential development of it--
Indians lack guts and everybody wants --overnight profits without hardwork
so it is the attitude that v want to change --country into a progressive one--if not "a developed one"
a perpetual positive [on all fronts]development is more important rather than to have tag"developed status" for a country
 
Hello Thiru Siva Avargalle, :)

I went through your post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...come-truely-developed-nation-2.html#post37131

I was able to understand your intent, but couldn't get a clear idea on the suggestions you would like to make. Please post your ideas.

Thanks.

Sir
thanks--i do not want any prefix/suffix for my name--just my name is enough for identification--[i was asking this Ms renuka ji ji=in tamil--and not meant for me]I am simple -

v have many solution for many problems-only to coordinate and it work--some r scientific and other social,medical..and so on

what is happening is that --v r not exactly focusing and dealing with problem --


--when there is problem like even fog at airport,fire at oil well,bird hit aircraft--v did not call --open public forum --and ask for solutions
since there r many scientists and innovative public--there could be solutions --if v pay suitable rewards and royalty to use it
but--v continue to have the problem--everybody thinks it is not their problem--govt/public/corporate

---[the following is in infancy--v TB.com, RVR have planned for mini Food ind proj-[delay is from my side] that could be SGH or can be taken into a big way in future with other potential projects--which will help in earning for poor and employment]
this is to say v must plan for ind set up/business that will help many
and at the same time utilising the cheap resources

hundreds of material r wasted --by rotting[more than50% food produce is wasted for lack storage and disposing for sale] or by improper use

I always ponder--and continue to--how come --v TB/Indians with intelligence r not able to solve many problems and at the same time many countries do it with ease

one of the answer -attitude and respect for work and must stop suspecting those who work for u/country/home

I am also working on--problems and probable solutions[except mine]


.......to be contd
 
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the following is a tendency,not to generalise
at the same time of development--India/ns must also look into people who destroy the development/progress--any corporate/psu/working place,no good working person is encouraged to continue the good /solutions--instead many will harass /discourage his/her efforts--this is one main problems with Indians/TB/B
more v r close/affinity more problem--[more closer u r,more problems--more stranger u r--u have less problem---,hence Indians can work very well abroad than in India/or his/her state]

u develop '10' good work,'100' r ready to destroy u/ur work.....
so when something is developed --v must ensure --it is not misused/destroyed,
otherwise all efforts will futile--/u r at wrong place
 
two articles on china, one from the u.s. and another from the economic times of india. :(

Op-Ed Columnist - Who’s Sleeping Now? - NYTimes.com

China systematically killing Indian manufacturing sector: L&T- Engineering-Ind'l Goods / Svs-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

the sad story is that world wide any manufacturing unit, is killed by china, if there is an open door policy.

anything, that anyone can manufacture, they can manufacture, cheaper, affordable and increasingly better. spoke to a small clinic operator in chennai a couple of months ago. he could not afford the xray machines made in japan or holland, but chinese ones are affordable and he passes on the savings to his clients.

there is no indian competitor :(

not sure how to combat that.
 
one can make out --how this aspect is taking place
1.india 'do 'not' have good policy matters on import and export--v export raw material and import finished goods at the cost of Indian industries
2.indian ind --is predominantly is by 'traders' like behaved than as true 'industrialists'
they only seek --overnight profits without efforts[no professionals can ever dare to start with the policies and leg pulling habits of corrupt business people]
3.v r good in making noise than work and take collective action

-----
1.there must be failure of collective action of --Indian policy makers
or by the CII/other ind/bus assns who must have not represented the issues faced by it,instead brag the non issues and get together workshops/parties



---so it is fault of Indian business behavior than a crass Chinese industrialization and cheap products
 
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India beats China & Russia in Quality of life.

Read on !

Quality of life? India beats China, Russia : Rediff.com Business

thanks hari. i read this too.

this type of articles, i think, should get thoughtful indians to ponder. undoubtedly, even though we are only #88 on the world rankings, this article says that we are a better place to live than china or russia. for whom? is it credible?

i do not know much about russia or china, but i do know a bit about the west. living in the west is easy, for the common man, as he does not have to put up with petty corruption. can we say the same thing about india? china? russia?

are we indians happy being #88? is this study valid in the first place? whom does it address? would it have any impact on the poor farmer or street cleaner? i am not so sure.

i focus on china, only because everything i see and buy is made in china. they have simply swamped the world with their products.

this is in canada, which is essentially a rich country, only because of a huge land mass and a small population base.

canada earns its money by exporting minerals, lumber, electricity and water. what little manufacturing base it had, has been wiped out by foreign competition.

here is another thoughtful article on china in today's ny times.

As China Rises, Fears Grow on Whether Boom Can Endure - NYTimes.com

the growth of china is something that everyone in the world stands up and notices, because it impacts all of us, no matter where we live.

i think, china's beggar thy neighbour policy by keeping its currency low, hits may not be india, but small countries who have small factories and who live on subsistent living. africa has no hope. neither do caribbean or even smaller asian countries like bangladesh or indonesia, which are human rich resource poor.

i am not criticizing india. not at all.

though often i do wish, that we can show figures like china. like india, china still has a soft underbelly of millions of poverty stricken folks, and it will be interesting to see how their lot improves in time. can they do it faster than india?

incidentally, it is of immense pride to me, that nano is coming to north america in 3 years, maybe just in time for me to replace my current toyota :) . but buying a nano, is not an indication, i think, that the lot of the common man in india has improved. maybe there is a connection between the two, that i am not able to fathom.

best wishes.
 
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another, this one from businessweek, and widely circulated in some indian circles :)

Five Myths About India - BusinessWeek


I must admit that I did indeed fall for this particuar myth as I have been to Beijing and does truly seems poles apart to major Indian cities.

Myth No.2: India is decades behind China.
Most visitors to India and China form their impressions about these countries by comparing such cities as Mumbai, New Delhi, and Bangalore with Shanghai, Beijing, and Guangzhou. The difference between the two countries' urban centers is truly stark. China's top cities now look more modern and sleeker than New York or London. By contrast, India's premier cities are still vivid examples of the third world.
 
thanks hari. i read this too.

this type of articles, i think, should get thoughtful indians to ponder. undoubtedly, even though we are only #88 on the world rankings, this article says that we are a better place to live than china or russia. for whom? is it credible?

i do not know much about russia or china, but i do know a bit about the west. living in the west is easy, for the common man, as he does not have to put up with petty corruption. can we say the same thing about india? china? russia?

are we indians happy being #88? is this study valid in the first place? whom does it address? would it have any impact on the poor farmer or street cleaner? i am not so sure.

i focus on china, only because everything i see and buy is made in china. they have simply swamped the world with their products.

this is in canada, which is essentially a rich country, only because of a huge land mass and a small population base.

canada earns its money by exporting minerals, lumber, electricity and water. what little manufacturing base it had, has been wiped out by foreign competition.

here is another thoughtful article on china in today's ny times.

As China Rises, Fears Grow on Whether Boom Can Endure - NYTimes.com

the growth of china is something that everyone in the world stands up and notices, because it impacts all of us, no matter where we live.

i think, china's beggar thy neighbour policy by keeping its currency low, hits may not be india, but small countries who have small factories and who live on subsistent living. africa has no hope. neither do caribbean or even smaller asian countries like bangladesh or indonesia, which are human rich resource poor.

i am not criticizing india. not at all.

though often i do wish, that we can show figures like china. like india, china still has a soft underbelly of millions of poverty stricken folks, and it will be interesting to see how their lot improves in time. can they do it faster than india?

incidentally, it is of immense pride to me, that nano is coming to north america in 3 years, maybe just in time for me to replace my current toyota :) . but buying a nano, is not an indication, i think, that the lot of the common man in india has improved. maybe there is a connection between the two, that i am not able to fathom.

best wishes.


this is in response to Canada--policy
fortunately/unfortunately i am- Canadian immg-but returned to India after a brief stay
I found the following-bad policies of Canada
1.most of students[of Canada] wish to settle in US than in Canada
2.most of immg r into temp jobs,professionals r not given due importance-for fear of [whites] losing their power and positions
3.behave as British Colony than as a dev nation--except that it is clean
4.most of development of industry is from US than Canadian initiative
5. except IT no immgr prof is given importance--hence many prof immg struggle to live in Canada
 
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this is in response to Canada--policy
fortunately/unfortunately i am- Canadian immg-but returned to India after a brief stay
I found the following-bad policies of Canada
1.most of students[of Canada] wish to settle in US than in Canada
2.most of immg r into temp jobs,professionals r not given due importance-for fear of [whites] losing their power and positions
3.behave as British Colony than as a dev nation--except that it is clean
4.most of development of industry is from US than Canadian initiative
5. except IT no immgr prof is given importance--hence many prof immg struggle to live in Canada

siva,

absolutely, 100% correct. these are my opinions below, and hence choose not to qualify each statement with a personal disclaimer !!

to most non white immigrants, canada is a gateway to the u.s. (either for themselves or their chldren - as the border is porous once you get your canadian passport).

i think, canada already deeply divided within itself between the french quebec, the atlantic provinces, the ontario heartland, the prairies west, alberta, and british columbia, does not have much of a future. even the most ardent canadians realize that.

history has played some cruel tricks on canada - while annhilating the aboriginal populations, there was not enough incentive to fill the vacated spots with white northern europeans ( who preferred the usa anyway). by clinging to the british crown, till 1967, it did not even have a flag or a constitution. it is not the fault of the british, but the anglos here, who are very insecure.

the anglos still dominate the money business (banking which is heavily controlled in canada - a blessing as it skirted us around the rest-of-the-western-world bank crisis), law, and politics. certain low level but well paying professions like police, firemen etc were pure anglo, but dents are being made. the french control the federal civil service and the armed forces.

so what is open to the rest? everything else. i.t - as you mention siva. also the medical profession - though an immigrant doctor will have challenges trying to practice here.

so which group of immigrants do well here? the ones who come up with nothing but ambition, like the sri lankan tamils. they come here with their backs burned and nowhere else to turn to (atleast while the civil war was on).

they are young, in their late teens or early twenties, take two or three jobs, share 10 to a one bedroom flat, save the money, and very soon into small business. this is among the friendliest countries for small businesses - the tax breaks and the government support, enables you with even $15,000 per annum in gross income, to have a decent life, as you get to keep every penny you earn, considering all the write offs and government subsidies.

the other type of immigrants who do well, are those, who have a skillset using their hands - plumbers, electricians, மேஸ்த்ரிஸ், auto mechanics - none of them 'brahmin professions'.

most of us TBs who immigrate here, are professionals, of one sort or the other. ofcourse, there is a demand, or otherwise, canada immigration would not have given you the permission to settle here. but, there is a huge cultural gap - someone in marketing or advertising, cannot relate to the local markets. interviews are a disaster.

the key to success as an immigrant, is to get an interview in the desired field first. this itself may be a challenge, as people tend to stereotype immigrants. then, to get as much input from the locals, as to how to dress, behave, respond, interact, and above all be 'liked enoug to be offered the job'. the last characterestic, ie being looked upon as 'canadian' takes years.

personally i can relate to it. initially, it took me a year to a job about 35 years ago. i started my second career, just a few years ago, and was with much trepiditions, due to remembered experiences re job hunting. the pleasant surprise, was that, after many years here, one gets to have the nuances of a 'canadian'. it is hard to quantify. perhaps it is the body language? i don't know.

siva, i think, i have posted a long enough note, to bore the public. if you would be kind enough, to give us your background, and if you be curious enough, we can dwell further into this rather inane, boring, but certainly topical issue.

thank you :)
 
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siva,

absolutely, 100% correct. these are my opinions below, and hence choose not to qualify each statement with a personal disclaimer !!

to most non white immigrants, canada is a gateway to the u.s. (either for themselves or their chldren - as the border is porous once you get your canadian passport).

i think, canada already deeply divided within itself between the french quebec, the atlantic provinces, the ontario heartland, the prairies west, alberta, and british columbia, does not have much of a future. even the most ardent canadians realize that.

history has played some cruel tricks on canada - while annhilating the aboriginal populations, there was not enough incentive to fill the vacated spots with white northern europeans ( who preferred the usa anyway). by clinging to the british crown, till 1967, it did not even have a flag or a constitution. it is not the fault of the british, but the anglos here, who are very insecure.

the anglos still dominate the money business (banking which is heavily controlled in canada - a blessing as it skirted us around the rest-of-the-western-world bank crisis), law, and politics. certain low level but well paying professions like police, firemen etc were pure anglo, but dents are being made. the french control the federal civil service and the armed forces.

so what is open to the rest? everything else. i.t - as you mention siva. also the medical profession - though an immigrant doctor will have challenges trying to practice here.

so which group of immigrants do well here? the ones who come up with nothing but ambition, like the sri lankan tamils. they come here with their backs burned and nowhere else to turn to (atleast while the civil war was on).

they are young, in their late teens or early twenties, take two or three jobs, share 10 to a one bedroom flat, save the money, and very soon into small business. this is among the friendliest countries for small businesses - the tax breaks and the government support, enables you with even $15,000 per annum in gross income, to have a decent life, as you get to keep every penny you earn, considering all the write offs and government subsidies.

the other type of immigrants who do well, are those, who have a skillset using their hands - plumbers, electricians, மேஸ்த்ரிஸ், auto mechanics - none of them 'brahmin professions'.

most of us TBs who immigrate here, are professionals, of one sort or the other. ofcourse, there is a demand, or otherwise, canada immigration would not have given you the permission to settle here. but, there is a huge cultural gap - someone in marketing or advertising, cannot relate to the local markets. interviews are a disaster.

the key to success as an immigrant, is to get an interview in the desired field first. this itself may be a challenge, as people tend to stereotype immigrants. then, to get as much input from the locals, as to how to dress, behave, respond, interact, and above all be 'liked enoug to be offered the job'. the last characterestic, ie being looked upon as 'canadian' takes years.

personally i can relate to it. initially, it took me a year to a job about 35 years ago. i started my second career, just a few years ago, and was with much trepiditions, due to remembered experiences re job hunting. the pleasant surprise, was that, after many years here, one gets to have the nuances of a 'canadian'. it is hard to quantify. perhaps it is the body language? i don't know.

siva, i think, i have posted a long enough note, to bore the public. if you would be kind enough, to give us your background, and if you be curious enough, we can dwell further into this rather inane, boring, but certainly topical issue.

thank you :)

thanks you Sir --for taking deep into the subject
v feel anything that does not work--will effect us all democratic people--India/Canada/Australia have same Commenwealth nonsense of bureaucracy ,old primitive thinking[[not that v cannot develop--but clinging to the nonsense past--than rest of th world--US,good EU countries]

Just like Canada who r into mining ...Aus too depend on this Mining Economy [+mining scandals]that is primitive like old South Africa --with this attitude they r going backward--than progressing in Sci&Tech/ind innovative development

coming back to Canada--I like, although time consuming--but very sluggish to other professionals--when I applied for immigration,-immg officer gave me book to refer my profession---but surprisingly --it was not there[Food Technology--it is of grad,pg,phd+...]but I found only trade -catering and other trade subjects

All they want is--get all plumbing.+...other --low level immg[trades]than high professionals---so it is not very keen for professional hence its[Canada and Aus] development is not that great than it should have been[Aus too --living on low level-immg,plumbers+ and to some extent--'Accounting' [graduate ]is only subject they r allowing for immgration]

this is say Canada and Aus would have developed --mentally and economically as progressive nations --if they would have allowed good professionals and progressive immigrants --rather than now in denial mode of immg bashing in Aus,creating unpleasant situation


to be continued....
 
Dear KunjuppuJi and Sivaji,

I'm really surprised to hear this about Canada. i'd always thought it was more ideal than the US as it has a good blend of socialism, a huge land mass and relatively low population. Its (both Aust and Canada) is not as developed in IT as the US and many Indian professionals (including TBs) tend to be in IT one way or another and thus not attracted/no incentive to be in these places compared to the states.

Australia has been a huge attraction for South-East Asian immigrants ever since they removed the white only policy. Many do tend to have skills such as plumpling, hairdressing, nursing as opposed to professional jobs. But they do really well.
 
--although very critic about CAnada/Aus--I am not against low level immg -who represent BOP[bottom of pyramid in profession]very important for infra dev and maintainability of existing ones
---'development' happens only when strategically well placed and structured near/top of pyramid starting from political thinking and so on to BOP --'everybody is important'
---while India is suffering to some extent at top--political corruption,judiciary being very possessive 'one man' judgment not very professionally managed judicial process
and very rampant corruption from middle to BOP--may be due recent/first exposure to easy money

--Can/Aus is suffering[as on 24 Jan--more than> 50 believe Aus is becoming/r racial after these recent immg bashing]from colonial legacy [with fewer natives who live in penury ] of British colony

Aus must stop this --immg bashing--''it is allowing it to happen'',is matter of concern than sporadic happening

NZ has escaped these tendencies of bad reputation of British colonial legacy as far as I know
 
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Sri. Siva Sir,

Kindly find a way to pardon me for interfering your conversation with Sri.Kunjuppu. Since I am an Australian, I sincerely hope that you don't mind too much about my interruptions.

To start with, your comments about Australia is uncalled for. Your conversation is with Mr. Kunjuppu with regards to Canadian immigration. At this point in time, let us not worry about Canada ( I am a Canadian permanent resident). How long have you been living in Australia? I will not accept your assertion that says "Aus must stop this --immg bashing--" You sound as if Australian Government Policy is 'immigrant bashing'. I don't know how long you have been living in Austaralia; if you are living in Australia at all. I live for the past 20 years in a 'large country town'. My experiences do not confirm your point of view at all!
 
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thanks siva.

thanks amala, raghy.

folks,

canada, to an extent, is like australia. it has the second largest land mass in the world, but does not have the critical population size to expand and develop in all areas.

ofcourse, it can open up the doors, and see the whole world at its doors overnight (i happened briefly in early 1970s, when canada revoked visa rules for anyone. very soon, we had enterprising folks, rent a jet plane from amritsar or new delhi, land in toronto as 'guests or visitors', and disappear to work illegally.

one has to say, that even though it might sound racist, that the anglo saxons are into good governing overall, when compared to the rest of the world. i would imagine, the quality of life either in canada or oz, would dramatically dive downwards, if immigration is not controlled, so that the next generation, of multi ethnic folks, atleast imbibes the respect for law, and rules & traditions. this is how i feel.

the quality of life in canada is good. once you have a job. siva, nobody here has heard of 'food technology', because not enough people demand those things. there is no merchant navy. manufacturing is confined to a few industries. but that does not mean this is a bad country.

siva, if you had one of the 'low level' trades, you will be making $100,000 a year, a very handsome sum. a good portion of it will also be hard cash, meaning you can avoid taxes. not a bad life at all. so, i would be pretty respectful of those guys, as it is very hard to get appointments for them.

it is unfortunate, i think, that we TBs put too much emphasis on 'high professionals', as these folks often are salaried people. there are enough unemployed salaried people here. as i said, the sri lankan tamils thrive, because they get into business and do very well. this country is a heaven for the entrepreneur, small or big. but engineering and engineering related professionals of any kind, immigrating will have a tough time to find a job. accountants seem to be doing ok.

the country is not backward minded, as siva says. infact, i find, the whites of today, quite different in attitudes than 30 years ago, for the better. my children are canadians, and consider themselves canadians. they cannot relate to recent indian immigrants. i have heard this complaint before, that local born kids ignore their new immigrant cousins. to an extent it is true, as there is a huge cultural gap, but in this age of internet, increasingly less so. youth anywhere in the world, can relate to youtube, facebook, twitter et al.

siva, i am not so sure about australia either. i have friends living there for about 25 years, and they love the place. they find ausssies pretty broad minded. this recent attacks on indians, i think, is an aberration. i have seen some of the 'students' from north india especially - loud, bragging and speaking in hindi loudly publicly just like delhi. it creates a bad image. i heard that the aussie embassy is now screening indians better. good for them.

you see, we TBs as a rule are law abiding, and do not get into these types of troubles or issues. so, i am surprised, that you talk of aussie racism. are we indians, not the biggest racists in the world. just look at our screening process for a marriage. the aussies don't do that, do they? i hear, that they accept asian brides or grooms into their family willingly, openly and cheerfully enjoying the asian functions whether it be chinese or indian. can we say the same about even other indian or tamil groups, let alone westerners?

siva, i think, it will take a while for you to get acclimatized to the west and its values. believe me, they are more honest overall, and the work ethic is better valued there than in india. there is a huge respect for the rule of the law, which indians, as a rule, we tend to flout, and then complain of racism. hopefully you will feel better in oz over the years. best wishes.
 
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