How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[ShivKC]

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Dear Raju:My response in bold letters below:

RAJU::::The Hindutva people as well as the Jihadis and Seventhdayites agree that Believers are Believers whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Xian and that God is the common denominator between them. After confirming this they start fighting as to who is the real god. so you are clearly on a loosing wicket.

YAMAKA:::::For Muslims, Allah = God, for Christians, Jesus = Son of God, Holy Spirit and God, and for Hindus, Ishwara or a combination of Brahma, Siva, Krishna and their various derivatives and hundreds of other deities are Gods. Their characteristics as described in their Holy Books are quite different. For Muslims, all other religious followers are Kafirs to be shunned. For example, there were Crusades of Christians against the Muslims to capture and re-capture Jerusalam with so much blood lost. Why?

Yams, in spite of all these contradictions, isnt that wonderful to see, that they all share a common view towards 'deliverance of absolute justice?'.. i mean, they all agree in common, that, come what crime you do in this world, and escape the judicial punishments from the hands of the man's judicial system,they claim strong with the god hypothesis that, one cannot escape the absolute justice, cos, there is a karma/hell waiting ahead!! (after death)

come what the oxfordites or rhode scholars can do it all with their expertise in judicial system, they still cant give assurance for the deliverance of absolute justice.

few decades after we hear testimonies of innocents being sentenced to death, surprisingly in the forensically well developed nations like USA. we hear thousand of stories of prime crime being done, well published in the press, but escaping the eyes of the man,s law of land. we hear the stories of dictators, gassing millions of innocent civilians, just to hold their power, have a jolly well life, take a suicide or die of senile and get a decent royal 21 gun salute burial !!!.. which SET system you think ,would deliver a perfect justice to them, apart from your well ridiculed god given karma/hell?

while on your attempt to try a divide here in the name of religions, see the commonality and the answer religion is attempting to give to a common person like you and me.. give it a try please, you macho young man!!

 

[Yamaka]

Yams, in spite of all these contradictions, isnt that wonderful to see, that they all have a common view towards 'deliverance of absolute justice?'.. They all agree in common, that come what crime you do in this world, and escape the judicial punishments from the hands of the man, still they say, one cannot escape, cos, there is a karma/hell is there waiting ahead!!

come what the oxfordites or rhode scholars, they cant give assurance for the deliverance of absolute justice. few decades after we hear testimonies of innocents being sentenced to death in the well developed nations like USA. we hear thousand of stories of prime crime dons, escaping the eyes of the law of land. we hear the stories of dictators, killing thousand of innocent civilians, just to hold their power, but have a jolly well life, and get a decent royal 21 gun salute burial.. which system you think would deliver justice to them, apart from god given karma/hell?

while on your attempt to try a divide here in the name of religions, see the commonality and the answer religion is attempting to give to a common person like you and me.. give it a try please, you macho young man!!

Dearest Shiv:

In this Forum I like you, M/s Sravna and Raju the most for you all are writing from India, and thus your POVs enrich my understanding of what's happening in my birth place!

On Deliverance of Justice:

You know my view on this already... that Justice is delivered in this life time for whatever decisions or behavior we show in this life... By who? I say by the Society at large. I already know that you all three are Believers in God and you all believe that the Deliverance is by this Super-Natural Agent. I disagree.

On what the Oxfordites or Rhodes Scholars achieve: Not much given the enormity of the tasks before them!

On Crime & Punishment in the US: Yes, we have serious problems. People are aware of it, and we are in the process of rectifying the problems and issues.

You already know that I don't believe in Hell and Heaven..

Yamaka dies probably tomorrow or someday and his body parts will be harvested for re-use, possibly, and given to Medical Students to practice, and finally buried under a 6 ft hole in the ground... His soul vanished the second his brain is dead and the story ends there summarily.. For him, there is NOTHING thereafter: No God No Hell No Heaven, period.

I want to be a Bridge Builder between Communities.. and Believers and Non-Believers... by using the Tool of Science Engineering & Technology - my profession of CHOICE.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Dearest Shiv:
In this Forum I like you,

Yam's i'll tell you what,

In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience:Oscar Wilde

​

the dilemma here is absolute deliverance of justice, and you seems to have no answer than saying the proverbial quote ' eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours". according to you, hitler and polpot escaping punishments for their wrongs seems to be OK. where was the supposed 'society at large' here in delivering the justice? can one suicide compensate 6mn lives?

come what crime one does, it seems to be OK, as long as he is not caught by the cop.

could you please take a worldview out of it?

don't you think, this kind of atheist worldview, would set a bad precedence for the next gen? (lets keep aside god, but not deliverance of justice)

The trouble with a kitten is that it eventually becomes a cat (!)

​

 

[Yamaka]

Yam's i'll tell you what,

In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience:Oscar Wilde

​

the dilemma here is absolute deliverance of justice, and you seems to have no answer than saying the proverbial quote ' eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow is not ours". according to you, hitler and polpot escaping punishments for their wrongs seems to be OK. where was the supposed 'society at large' here in delivering the justice? can one suicide compensate 6mn lives?

come what crime one does, it seems to be OK, as long as he is not caught by the cop.

could you please take a worldview out of it?

don't you think, this kind of atheist worldview, would set a bad precedence for the next gen? (lets keep aside god, but not deliverance of justice)

The trouble with a kitten is that it eventually becomes a cat (!)

Shiv:

1. Elsewhere, there is an intense debate going on as to how American kids are different from kids in the EAST (Japan, Korea, China, India, Singapore etc). Does this difference account for American Exceptionalism, if any?

My answer is there is an element of complete freedom for American kids growing up..they can choose what they want to specialize and whether they can interrupt the class in clarifying doubts with the basic questions like, "Wait a minute, why not this way or why is this way instead, there is an alternate explanation, you are completely off the track, don't give that BS to me, Sir" etc. etc. etc. This kind of approach and behavior is shunned in the EAST by the Establishment and the Society at large.

Though the Elementary and Secondary School education in the US is not as good as in Singapore or Korea quantitatively, there is SOME basic fundamental difference qualitatively... American kids have ORIGINALITY and are willing to think "out side the box" very readily. In the EAST, it is totally discouraged, if not forbidden.

In the US, the College/University education at the graduate level is the ENVY of the world... No one can beat her, including Germans and Japanese.

2. You seem to believe that God and Janma Poorva Karma are the answer to the historical cruelties of Hitler or Polpot.

As per my definition of God, and JPK I have written many times (recently what I wrote to Geetu Habiba in the other topic Modern and Ancient Hinduism in the Sticky Threads) before, THEY just don't exist to deal with the cruel autocrats of the present or the past.

Assuming you and other Believers are correct and I am wrong,

1. Why did the All Knowing and ALL powerful God allow Hitler and Polpot & others to engage in such atrocities in the first place?

2. Do you believe now after the fact that those people are suffering in the eternal flame of molten sulfur, as we speak?

My view is Hitler and Potpol are historical accidents that they amassed such power.. they all died and gone, and are NOT punished by any Super-Natural Agent.

We the People should see that such accidents don't happen again.. That's all.

It's the verbal and mental bombast of Believers who say "Oh, my God will protect me, if I worship HIM, and say prayers as often as possible".

That could give some temporary SOLACE to the Believers, but finally the TRUTH will triumph: No God, No JPK and No permanent use of any prayers, poojas and bhajans to ANYBODY, period.

Take care. Love to your kids.

Y

 

[biswa]

Yamaka dies probably tomorrow or someday and his body parts will be harvested for re-use, possibly, and given to Medical Students to practice, and finally buried under a 6 ft hole in the ground... His soul vanished the second his brain is dead and the story ends there summarily.. For him, there is NOTHING thereafter: No God No Hell No Heaven, period.

Wait I have some questions on this one from the point of view of a pure scientific rationalist. Donating your body to medicine is undeniably a noble idea. However why do you want to buried and occupy real estate in a graveyard? Wouldn't it be better to be turned into compost and used as manure in somebody's garden? Or at least be dumped into the sea so that the fishes get some nourishment?

And frankly I am surprised at your mention of soul. What the heck is that? Can it be detected via ECG/EEG/EKG? If not then it doesn't exist, right?

 

[Yamaka]

Wait I have some questions on this one from the point of view of a pure scientific rationalist. Donating your body to medicine is undeniably a noble idea. However why do you want to buried and occupy real estate in a graveyard? Wouldn't it be better to be turned into compost and used as manure in somebody's garden? Or at least be dumped into the sea so that the fishes get some nourishment?

And frankly I am surprised at your mention of soul. What the heck is that? Can it be detected via ECG/EEG/EKG? If not then it doesn't exist, right?

1. I want to be buried. Others might take a different route to dispose of the dead body. Their CHOICE. By burying, not burning to ashes, I want to remain in the Fixed Carbon Cycle to be used in the Food Chain. My CHOICE.

2. Soul is nothing but the "I"ness, or the personality or the likes of humans and perhaps all primates - all the products of the specialized sensory neurons in the frontal cortex in the brain. You may learn about one's personality or the soul in all the writings, posts, speeches or the likes he/she makes! All the value judgement that the person makes etc. etc.

Specialized tools are unnecessary to know about the soul. But, Believers have a different view of the Soul, which is IMAGINARY not REAL.

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL the Indian Americans and others in the great U S of A!

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Shiv:

Assuming you and other Believers are correct and I am wrong,

1. Why did the All Knowing and ALL powerful God allow Hitler and Polpot & others to engage in such atrocities in the first place?

2. Do you believe now after the fact that those people are suffering in the eternal flame of molten sulfur, as we speak?

My view is Hitler and Potpol are historical accidents that they amassed such power.. they all died and gone, and are NOT punished by any Super-Natural Agent.

We the People should see that such accidents don't happen again.. That's all.

It's the verbal and mental bombast of Believers who say "Oh, my God will protect me, if I worship HIM, and say prayers as often as possible".

That could give some temporary SOLACE to the Believers, but finally the TRUTH will triumph: No God, No JPK and No permanent use of any prayers, poojas and bhajans to ANYBODY, period.

Take care. Love to your kids.

Y

Yams, why god allowed historical crimes? the answer to this lies with the god given free-will.

but my question still lies un-answered in a convincing way. if we believe in Justice, then there should also be a system to deliver justice,for those who escapes from punishment in this world.

i may not be able to prove the 'LAW' of re-birth-karma/hell, but considering it as a 'THEORY' seems to be more appealing and convincing. may be that theory, works well out of the fear factor, may be, that weed was the cockroach's testicles! but it helps the society and our children. that's the point i'm driving here.

Yams, i'll tell you what, you have delighted us long enough (!)

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear sir !
very nice writeup and it is true men are selfish and not bothered about his partner.all the best for your son and you are lucky that you are role model for your son.
cheers
guruvayuarappan

 

[suraju06]

Hi Yamaka,

Your post #274:

Because, your views and writings are quite confusing, wrong and possibly contradictory!

Needs substantiation. Will you please respond quoting the instances?

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka's post #273:

For Muslims, Allah = God, for Christians, Jesus = Son of God, Holy Spirit and God, and for Hindus, Ishwara or a combination of Brahma, Siva, Krishna and their various derivatives and hundreds of other deities are Gods. Their characteristics as described in their Holy Books are quite different. For Muslims, all other religious followers are Kafirs to be shunned. For example, there were Crusades of Christians against the Muslims to capture and re-capture Jerusalam with so much blood lost. Why?In what these Believers believe is the key here... they Believe in quite different ideas and concepts. That the Jihadis and Hindutva people understood clearly.

But they all believe in God (the common denominator) and that is what is common to them. Atheists do not believe in this God. If you are going to say that 'God' is unintelligible then you are getting into a different zone which is called LANGUAGE. The inadequacy of language as a tool cannot be the reason for denying the God. It would be like denying the existence of data itself for the deficiencies of the metadata. Think, man, think. There are only two categories believers and non believers. How the various believers perceive God is not material here to determine their relative numerical strength in comparison to nonbelievers. If believers do not believe in God what do the nonbelievers have to deny?

Yes. So what? If you say yes, then why do you add the numbers I gave you?

For the reasons given above.

I do not understand this. What do you want to say? Just self explanatory! Don't pretend to sleep, Raju dear!

That is a nice riddle you have worked up when you found your inability to answer.

A statement of the Obvious. We are all aware of this. In India too this is the situation with Xians. If you do, then why do you add up my numbers and smile! Do you want to steal a wicket? LOL

Do I have to repeat. Please read again what is there in this post.

cheers.

 

[Nara]

....1. Elsewhere, there is an intense debate going on as to how American kids are different from kids in the EAST (Japan, Korea, China, India, Singapore etc). Does this difference account for American Exceptionalism, if any?

[....]

In the US, the College/University education at the graduate level is the ENVY of the world... No one can beat her, including Germans and Japanese.

Y, if there is anything like American Exceptionalism it is their inflated notion of what they represent to the rest of the world. A part of that is what you say above, i.e. the U.S. graduate level education is the ENVY of others. I am particularly taken by the emphasis you have placed, capitalizing the word. That is indeed US Exceptionalism, i.e. Americans are probably the only ones to think along these lines, i.e. they think that others envy them.

Don't get me wrong, the graduate level education in the U.S. is top notch. It is held in very high esteem around the world. But, not many informed people, particularly those in the graduate level of academia in the U.S., would say that they are the ENVY of the world.

There are many equally good graduate level educational institutions outside the U.S. Further, much of the scientific advancements occur due to collaboration and healthy competition among scientists around the world, of many different nationality. The scientists would be the first to acknowledge this.

BTW, the concept of American Exceptionalism is grounded on the idea that the U.S. was the first nation to come into existence based on the principles of liberty, equality and one that was free of any class distinction. Obviously this is a big malicious myth, malicious because it has only served to harm both the Americans and the rest of the world.

First, US may have been the first nation to proclaim liberty and equality, but they surely were not the first to mean it. To them, a black was 3/5th of a human being, and only men, i.e. males, of property got to vote. In this respect, even though the French revolution came a little later, they were the first to really mean it, but even their revolution got derailed, but that is a different story.

In the long years since the American revolution, the only thing Americans showed themselves to be exceptional at is going to war with other nations, not a single generation avoided it. Today U.S. is the preeminent neo-collonial power and a hegemon in every corner of the word. In this respect they are exceptional indeed.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

Reference Yamaka in post #231:

YAMAKA::::As a self proclaimed Atheist, I need to answer this -I look forward everyday to "discover" something new in this Universe, hidden by Nature in the neuro-architecture of human brain. This is my profession.

SuRAJU::::I have many friends here in Chennai who can brag of more and better achievements.

.

raju, i admit, few months back, even I felt the same like you, thought, Yams is bragging,but i was wrong. off late i realized, that, there is something great in him, that he must have been a 'greatest father' to his children.

its natural, any good father would feel happy about the achievement of his children, and the only way to enjoy/cherish such happiness is to share with others, and it should not be viewed as bragging. his bragging is definitely the sign of his great fatherhood achievements.

Thiruvalluvar's "Ivan Thanthai Yen nootan koll" ( let the world astonish, who the father of this great kid?)

another saying ' Thanthai 8 mulam paainthal, magan 16 muzham paivaan" (if father leaps 8 lengths the ideal son would leap 16 lengths)


though i chase him tooth and nail in all his views, but when it comes to parenting advice and the achievement of his children, my ears are all for him. soon after the retirement, my father too had contracted this contagious bragging-disease about us, his children's achievements.

interestingly, my wife always hates his posts, calls it as 'satanic versus' and stops me from reading him. but when ever he writes about parenting/achievements of kids, i whistle and call her from kitchen, and we both read it, with a learning tone from a online role model father.

 

[guruvayurappan]

hai mr.sivakc !
what you said is correct .all are very eager to share their experience not onlyabout children but also about the places visited,new item purchased etc.without telling to others they will not feel the full happiness of their ventures.the degree of sharing differs from person to person.my wife used say that we were also visited places and achieved many things but some how we are not like them.Her opinion is all the places and people are same and we need not take extra tour for the same . take it as it comes is her policy.why to make people to worry about the thing they can not venture
cheers guru

 

[sangom]

raju, i admit, few months back, even I felt the same like you, thought, Yams is bragging,but i was wrong. off late i realized, that, there is something great in him, that he must have been a 'greatest father' to his children.

its natural, any good father would feel happy about the achievement of his children, and the only way to enjoy/cherish such happiness is to share with others, and it should not be viewed as bragging. his bragging is definitely the sign of his great fatherhood achievements.

Thiruvalluvar's "Ivan Thanthai Yen nootan koll" ( let the world astonish, who the father of this great kid?)

another saying ' Thanthai 8 mulam paainthal, magan 16 muzham paivaan" (if father leaps 8 lengths the ideal son would leap 16 lengths)


though i chase him tooth and nail in all his views, but when it comes to parenting advice and the achievement of his children, my ears are all for him. soon after the retirement, my father too had contracted this contagious bragging-disease about us, his children's achievements.

interestingly, my wife always hates his posts, calls it as 'satanic versus' and stops me from reading him. but when ever he writes about parenting/achievements of kids, i whistle and call her from kitchen, and we both read it, with a learning tone from a online role model father.

Children shaping well or ill is not within the control of parents, imho. I have seen many cases in which children of the same parents, brought up in same surroundings (no financial ups & downs in the parents' life), some shaping well while some turn very bad. You cannot even say that such variation is caused by the type of friends, because in most of these cases the friends are also from the same houses, more or less. But one becomes very learned while another becomes a petty thief, stealing items from shops (shop-lifting? no, I am talking about 'peTTikkaDais' of our country). It is all chance or, for, those who believe in Karma, poorva janma karma. That is why there is a proverb in Malayalam which says,"don't be proud of your kids and about the flowering mango trees"; both may disappoint completely at the end. மாவு பூக்குந்நதும் மக்கள்‍ வளருந்நதும் கண்டு அஹங்கரிக்கருது.

In Y's case, what will happen if both his children get completely "sucked" by iskcon, as indicated by GH's example? I have a close relative boy who was well employed, married, a son was born but, inexplicably, he got into this iskcon and has now cut himself off from the whole family, including his old, stone-deaf, widowed mother, and has become some "dasa".

 

[Yamaka]

Children shaping well or ill is not within the control of parents, imho. I have seen many cases in which children of the same parents, brought up in same surroundings (no financial ups & downs in the parents' life), some shaping well while some turn very bad. You cannot even say that such variation is caused by the type of friends, because in most of these cases the friends are also from the same houses, more or less. But one becomes very learned while another becomes a petty thief, stealing items from shops (shop-lifting? no, I am talking about 'peTTikkaDais' of our country). It is all chance or, for, those who believe in Karma, poorva janma karma. That is why there is a proverb in Malayalam which says,"don't be proud of your kids and about the flowering mango trees"; both may disappoint completely at the end. மாவு பூக்குந்நதும் மக்கள்‍ வளருந்நதும் கண்டு அஹங்கரிக்கருது.

In Y's case, what will happen if both his children get completely "sucked" by iskcon, as indicated by GH's example? I have a close relative boy who was well employed, married, a son was born but, inexplicably, he got into this iskcon and has now cut himself off from the whole family, including his old, stone-deaf, widowed mother, and has become some "dasa".

Dear Sangom:

I fully understand what you say and the Malayalam proverb. In all our activities, the outcome depends on an element of pure luck. Some people may say that is the Blessings of God. As a Godless man, being in the right place at the right time is the answer for luck - but luck favors the most prepared also!

My view is, I feel "proper" parenting is THE most important duty of mine. My success or failure is measured by how well my kids are doing - as productive citizens... they may remain as Secular or may become Believers as adults as GH did, which will not bother me. I want them to be productive citizens of "good standing" in the Society.

To tell you the truth, now I feel extremely happy that what all I did worked out very well.

I am very eager to share with everyone who cares. In fact, where ever we go these days people ask about our parenting (after this Rhodes scholarship, our name is quite familiar with many people in the neighborhood and at my work place): the prominent question are

"Sir, which Church are you going? How many hours your kids did home work everyday? Are your kids very bookish? What's your Family Values? Man.. how did you send both kids to World's Best Universities and pay for it? How much debt load do you have?" etc etc.

I repeat the answers again and again with a smile.

The best part of everything is my kids feel I am their best friend - they can tease me all day on how I talk and walk in public and all my shortcomings, and they will come and hug me each twisting my ears with fondness!

They are also extremely fond of their wonderful Mom.

I want them to find their Sweet Hearts and have a wonderful romantic love life, as their parents did!

More later...

Cheers.

Ps. You may ask "Y, what if all this did not happen?" Well, I would have been kicking myself, and endlessly introspecting why things went wrong? Licking my wounds and asking the age old question "What's life, anyway?"

 

[Yamaka]

raju, i admit, few months back, even I felt the same like you, thought, Yams is bragging,but i was wrong. off late i realized, that, there is something great in him, that he must have been a 'greatest father' to his children.

its natural, any good father would feel happy about the achievement of his children, and the only way to enjoy/cherish such happiness is to share with others, and it should not be viewed as bragging. his bragging is definitely the sign of his great fatherhood achievements.

Thiruvalluvar's "Ivan Thanthai Yen nootan koll" ( let the world astonish, who the father of this great kid?)

another saying ' Thanthai 8 mulam paainthal, magan 16 muzham paivaan" (if father leaps 8 lengths the ideal son would leap 16 lengths)


though i chase him tooth and nail in all his views, but when it comes to parenting advice and the achievement of his children, my ears are all for him. soon after the retirement, my father too had contracted this contagious bragging-disease about us, his children's achievements.

interestingly, my wife always hates his posts, calls it as 'satanic versus' and stops me from reading him. but when ever he writes about parenting/achievements of kids, i whistle and call her from kitchen, and we both read it, with a learning tone from a online role model father.

Shiv:

Maybe, some fathers are like me... a small history -

Soon after my PhD graduation, my father bragged to his friends and peers,

"No one in our family finished SSLC. No one thought of going to College in our forgotten small village - my kid did! and he went all the way to get PhD, he never failed even in one class, he is the FIRST PhD of entirely of Madurai Kamaraj University!"

He was laughing, and tears were rolling down his cheek!

They asked, "What's this? Are you laughing or crying, man?"

"Both, you just don't know!" This has happened to me also many times: Laughing and Crying at the same time!

You see, the bragging gene is in the family, LOL!

Cheers

 

[Yamaka]

Y, if there is anything like American Exceptionalism it is their inflated notion of what they represent to the rest of the world. A part of that is what you say above, i.e. the U.S. graduate level education is the ENVY of others. I am particularly taken by the emphasis you have placed, capitalizing the word. That is indeed US Exceptionalism, i.e. Americans are probably the only ones to think along these lines, i.e. they think that others envy them.

Don't get me wrong, the graduate level education in the U.S. is top notch. It is held in very high esteem around the world. But, not many informed people, particularly those in the graduate level of academia in the U.S., would say that they are the ENVY of the world.

There are many equally good graduate level educational institutions outside the U.S. Further, much of the scientific advancements occur due to collaboration and healthy competition among scientists around the world, of many different nationality. The scientists would be the first to acknowledge this.

BTW, the concept of American Exceptionalism is grounded on the idea that the U.S. was the first nation to come into existence based on the principles of liberty, equality and one that was free of any class distinction. Obviously this is a big malicious myth, malicious because it has only served to harm both the Americans and the rest of the world.

First, US may have been the first nation to proclaim liberty and equality, but they surely were not the first to mean it. To them, a black was 3/5th of a human being, and only men, i.e. males, of property got to vote. In this respect, even though the French revolution came a little later, they were the first to really mean it, but even their revolution got derailed, but that is a different story.

In the long years since the American revolution, the only thing Americans showed themselves to be exceptional at is going to war with other nations, not a single generation avoided it. Today U.S. is the preeminent neo-collonial power and a hegemon in every corner of the word. In this respect they are exceptional indeed.

Cheers!

Dear N:

I hear you on the two sides of "American Exceptionalism"...we can debate on this endlessly.

I have a workplace where Japanese, Koreans and Indians work. I talk to them regularly about the Elementary, Secondary and Tertiary Education in their home country. Many decided to go back to their country to do "teaching and research" as they do here; most have returned back frustrated saying,

"We don't find good students who understand original research - even the top students ask us to tell them how to get good results then they will replicate it! They just don't KNOW how to THINK of original research, our teaching method is fundamentally flawed... in the name of discipline we have ruined all the students - no body is encouraged to think NEW and "outside the box""

I feel our American educational system from Elementary School to Graduate School encourages "freedom to THINK different, and think "out side the box" and students can readily give opinions about teachers and confront them, which is unheard of in the EAST, including India.

For example, here is a conversation I have with my son when I picked him up around 5:30 pm from his High School:

"Hi, Top Gun. What happened today - why are you so dull?"

"Oh..annoying.. this English teacher is a moron. She comes to class w/o much preparation.. she blathers the same thing she talked about last week, which she forgot... man, why do such people come for work... When I pointed out, she is mad at me! Who cares, anyway.. Je..su..s?"

"Take it easy, boy. You have lot other good teachers!"

"Ya.. I do have good teachers; but we need to get rid of those useless warm bodies".

Dear N, I don't know about you - I have never talked like this when I was in high school in India... I don't know whether kids in India talk like this today!

That's what I mean by FREEDOM and to think "outside the box" among our kids in America for a long time.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

"But they all believe in God (the common denominator) and that is what is common to them. Atheists do not believe in this God. If you are going to say that 'God' is unintelligible then you are getting into a different zone which is called LANGUAGE. The inadequacy of language as a tool cannot be the reason for denying the God. It would be like denying the existence of data itself for the deficiencies of the metadata. Think, man, think. There are only two categories believers and non believers. How the various believers perceive God is not material here to determine their relative numerical strength in comparison to nonbelievers. If believers do not believe in God what do the nonbelievers have to deny? " Raju post 284

Dearest Raju:

I will not hesitate to add all the Believers together if they all are operationally speaking "friends" or the birds of the same flock!

They are not... their day to day aim is to destroy the other guy. Here is an example -

Most Evangelicals in America support Isreal. Lately, the AIPAC - the powerful Jewish organization - found out something about this Evangelicals and stopped accepting their support by both money and power play. The reason is WHY these subset of Christians support the Jewish State:

They want Jews to annihilate all the Arab Muslims in Palestine. Once this happens, they believe that Jesus's Second Coming to that part of the world is possible. When that happens, ALL Jews will be annihilated and Palestine will be liberated finally for the Christians - Bethlaham, Naserath and Jerusalam will come back to Christiandom!

You see, this is happening among the Abrahamic Faith - Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Then do you believe really these warring factions will hug the Hindus sincerely?

Thus, additions can be done, functionally speaking, for the "like minded people" and NOT life-long enemies!

That's my point.

Cheers.

 

[Servall]

Dear Yamaka:

My hearty congratulations for your son achieving the incredible 'Rhodes scholar'.

Although he had a major part in achieving this, it reflects in the value and role model skills you and your wife have played in moulding him and creating the drive and aspirations in him to achieve this tremendous feat.

I can imagine how proud you both are, and it is something every father and mother in this forum can share in.

Hey Y, get him to go more to temples, more religion into him may get him to the white house!!!

I wish him only the very best.....

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka:

My hearty congratulations for your son achieving the incredible 'Rhodes scholar'.

Although he had a major part in achieving this, it reflects in the value and role model skills you and your wife have played in moulding him and creating the drive and aspirations in him to achieve this tremendous feat.

I can imagine how proud you both are, and it is something every father and mother in this forum can share in.

Hey Y, get him to go more to temples, more religion into him may get him to the white house!!!

I wish him only the very best.....

Hello Servall:

Thanks...

Well, as I said before, God and Religion is up to my kids... they may remain Secular or follow whatever Faith THEY want to follow, as adults.

Let me wait & watch where they go on this issue... so far, they don't show any interest in any God...

..although my son has gone to the Beautiful Church that Stanford has to find some "serene place to think thru confusing matters of that day"... he perhaps likes to meditate sometimes!

Cheers.

ps. One of the Interviewers in the Rhodes Scholar Selection Committee is a Science Adviser to Barack Obama. He has given my son his Business Card, asking him "When you come to DC next time, give me a call... I will take you to meet the President - he would very much like to talk to you about your work in Haiti!"... when my son & other Elected Rhodes leave for Oxford there will be dozens of Rhodes to send them off next Fall... he hopes to meet Bill Clinton there, along with many others! Very cool ...

 

[Nara]

....I feel our American educational system from Elementary School to Graduate School encourages "freedom to THINK different, and think "out side the box" and students can readily give opinions about teachers and confront them, which is unheard of in the EAST, including India.

Thank you for your perspective Y, on my comment about your views on American Exceptionalism, which I feel is mindless chest thumping, it is not very different from the Brahminism we both criticize vigorously. When you state there are two sides to it and that we can debate it endlessly, it does not sound any less hollow than the comments of those who counter us on Brahminism !!!

On educational standards and out-of-the-box thinking, here again you are basing your arguments on limited personal experiences. This is not a rational approach. To draw broad conclusions like what you are attempting we need to look at scientific studies, not personal anecdotes.

OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperarion and Development released a comprehensive report last year on educational standards of various countries. USA ranked 14th in reading, 25th in Math and 17th in science. Countries that ranked higher than USA were a mix of European and East Asian countries including South Korea and Japan.

In the 2007 ranking on Education Index USA ranked 20th with South Korea at 8th place and Cuba sharing the first rank with four other countries.

In a ranking of country-wise IQ, USA shared the 9th rank with 8 other countries, with 21 countries ranking above this group.

With such shabby results, I think it is better we Americans think of ways to improve our educational system than to proclaim how exceptional we are.

I don't want to comment on the conversation between you and your son. However, as a general observation, I think freedom to bad mouth teachers is, IMHO, not a predictor of critical thinking and out-of-the-box thinking. Encouraging such behavior is probably one of the reasons for an average American kid grows up to be chest thumping believer in the dangerous myth of American Excpetionalism.

This myth is the reason the likes of Bush and Obama can simply exempt the U.S. from international norms and proudly and hypocritically proclaim that their wars are just, their weapons programs are peaceful, they are on the side of liberty and justice, with majority cheering on for more such trite platitudes.

All this supposed out-of-the box education only adds teams of mindless cheerleaders of such policy to the ranks of American population year after year. We are #1, we are #1!!!!!

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

Children shaping well or ill is not within the control of parents, imho. both may disappoint completely at the end. மாவு பூக்குந்நதும் மக்கள்‍ வளருந்நதும் கண்டு அஹங்கரிக்கருது.

sangom sir, its very much true partly.. i take it this way, i put it in back in your own favorite malayalm.

Moothavarude vaakum muthu nellikayum aadhyam kaykum, pinne madhurikkum.
മൂത്തവരുടെ വാക്കും മുതു നെല്ലിക്കയും, ആദ്യം കയിക്കും പിന്നെ മധുരിയ്കുംadvices from elders are like gooseberries, its first taste is sour but it gets sweet later

thats some thing i picked up from Yam, like spending 4 hrs a day teaching children, etc, further which he had addressed well in his post no 289..

i was brought up in a different but strict environment. we brothers and sisters used to get dropped to school in an extremely dirty oily தமிழக அரசு JEEP (while on dad's way to office), and a kaaki clad men (uncle peon) used to load our school bags in to the jeep, much before we are out of bed. i studied in a strict elite jesuit school where vehicles are not allowed inside the school. but my father used to drop us right up to the class room carrying my school bags, while asking his orderly team to wait outside the camus.. i mean, he wanted to take this onus of carrying the bags(rather enjoyed it), but not letting to his peons to do so.

he never gave us pocket money , even on the 'school day party times', until i crossed +2, not even five paise. some of my class mates who felt pity on me used to get me an ice cream very often during lunch break, and i used to think them as rich kids and i often felt inferior in front of them. off late, 20 years after, i realised, one of the guy who bought me ice sticks very often, is the son of a carpenter.as a gratitude, i'm still in touch with him.

all along the journey, he used to repeat to us children, common' kids, you have a closed option in this world only to choose these 3..ie,IAS,Er, Dr...though being busy all the week days, he blocked the entire weekend for us, and used to spend the entire saturday and sunday in teaching us, maths,puzzles, riddles etc.. rest of the day mom taught us.. they kept on reminding us about the goal, ie, to become a IAS/doctor/engineer/..

finally,we all achieved one, and have all that profession in our family. i think, he had no idea about oxford or rhodes, otherwise, he would have forced that on us in to our throat, and made us to chew it.

and its few years before his retirement, all children started settling in life as per his goal.. once i was attending his office party. i could over hear some of his junior staff saying, ' oh, sir braggs too much about his children'.. why not, even, while newly married my wife gets worried about my dad's bragging, for her brother not achieved much.

there is some thing which i picked up form yams.. spend 4hrs a day with children in teaching. saying goes,Moothavarude vaakum muthu nellikayum aadhyam kaykum, pinne madhurikkum, and i think yams is a role model here

PS: for sure, some day,there will be a boy & a girl spitting on the epitaph of Yam. and on that day,miraculously (he dont believe that now) this energetic man's bones/skull will start speaking "'kids forgive me, for i have not taught you about god!!

 

[Yamaka]

Thank you for your perspective Y, on my comment about your views on American Exceptionalism, which I feel is mindless chest thumping, it is not very different from the Brahminism we both criticize vigorously. When you state there are two sides to it and that we can debate it endlessly, it does not sound any less hollow than the comments of those who counter us on Brahminism !!!

On educational standards and out-of-the-box thinking, here again you are basing your arguments on limited personal experiences. This is not a rational approach. To draw broad conclusions like what you are attempting we need to look at scientific studies, not personal anecdotes.

OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperarion and Development released a comprehensive report last year on educational standards of various countries. USA ranked 14th in reading, 25th in Math and 17th in science. Countries that ranked higher than USA were a mix of European and East Asian countries including South Korea and Japan.

In the 2007 ranking on Education Index USA ranked 20th with South Korea at 8th place and Cuba sharing the first rank with four other countries.

In a ranking of country-wise IQ, USA shared the 9th rank with 8 other countries, with 21 countries ranking above this group.

With such shabby results, I think it is better we Americans think of ways to improve our educational system than to proclaim how exceptional we are.

I don't want to comment on the conversation between you and your son. However, as a general observation, I think freedom to bad mouth teachers is, IMHO, not a predictor of critical thinking and out-of-the-box thinking. Encouraging such behavior is probably one of the reasons for an average American kid grows up to be chest thumping believer in the dangerous myth of American Excpetionalism.

This myth is the reason the likes of Bush and Obama can simply exempt the U.S. from international norms and proudly and hypocritically proclaim that their wars are just, their weapons programs are peaceful, they are on the side of liberty and justice, with majority cheering on for more such trite platitudes.

All this supposed out-of-the box education only adds teams of mindless cheerleaders of such policy to the ranks of American population year after year. We are #1, we are #1!!!!!

Cheers!

Dear N:

I hesitate to launch on an endless loop of arguments on this very provocative topic: American Exceptionalism. For the simple reason that this thread is for a different purpose, dear Servall would say!

Yes, we have similar views on Brahminism and other social issues. But we differ in many others like the topic on hand and American foreign policy etc.. this would prove to the readers here that we are not the same person!

I noted your remarks -

"However, as a general observation, I think freedom to bad mouth teachers is, IMHO, not a predictor of critical thinking and out-of-the-box thinking. Encouraging such behavior is probably one of the reasons for an average American kid grows up to be chest thumping believer in the dangerous myth of American Excpetionalism."

This is the key to our different perspective on the topic... I believe here in the US students stand up and confront the teachers more freely in the class rooms, while in the name of "discipline" in the EAST and elsewhere such activities are frowned upon like you do here... a critical view of the teachers is labelled as "bad mouthing of teachers".

American kids are mostly "FEARLESS", they don't think much about the consequences of their questioning their teachers! Whereas Indian parents tell the students, "Be respectful to the teachers, and possibly worship them next to God because they are the Gurus"

You conclude that American Exceptionalism is a dangerous myth.

I disagree.

That's our political divide. Let's enjoy that diversity and have peace around!

Keep writing about this in a new Thread, dear Nara.

Cheers.

ps. On Brahminism, we did not find common ground with our critics in this Forum because the term was not sufficiently defined. Others did not agree with my definition. That was the core problem.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Thiru.Yamaka,
I refer to your posts nos.291 & 294(response to Shri.Servall),I come to the conclusion(after reading your two posts) that your son is already drawn towards "Je..su..s".I may be wrong in my presumption.
I have not visited 'Stanford University'.I request you to clarify whether any temple(for followers of Hindu faith),Mosque (for followers of Islam),Gurudwara(for followers of Sikkism),worship place for followers of other Faiths have been provided or 'Je..su..s' is the only God allowed to be worshiped.
Ps.I had gone to School/College long before you.It is universal for all students to make comments/assess the worth of all teachers.It is not an exclusive privilege of students in USA.May be students in other countries do not have direct confrontation with their teachers.

 

[Nara]

.... this would prove to the readers here that we are not the same person!

The reality is for the two of us to know and others to only guess

American kids are mostly "FEARLESS", they don't think much about the consequences of their questioning their teachers! Whereas Indian parents tell the students, "Be respectful to the teachers, and possibly worship them next to God because they are the Gurus"

Don't you think one who is a rationalist must try to look for irrefutable evidence for such generalized statements before expressing them? Whether we agree on this issue or not, this is the standard I would expect from one who says is committed to reason.

Keep writing about this in a new Thread, dear Nara.

I will, but I hope the inevitable rebuttals are free of logical fallacies so common around here, even if the planets align themselves differently on this issue.

Cheers!