How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[B.Krishnamurthy]

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Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
Next time you visit India,Please take your children to 'LOTUS Temple"(Bhahai centre) in New Delhi and Vivekananda Memorial Rock in Kanyakumari.
They will really enjoy the 'Dyan Mandap' hall in VMR,Kanyakumari.
As to your wife's experience in Shiva Temples,I have only to say the following.
Before moving to Chennai from Newdelhi,my wife requested me
to accompany her to 'Ramar' Temple in Lodhi Road.I am not a regular visitor to temples.Reluctantly I accompanied her.After worship in
a few Sannadhis in the ground floor,I was keen to come out of the temple.I told my wife that Ramar vigraham is really very good and let us go outas we had to visit another place..She laughed at me and told me that I had seen some other Sannadhis and we have to go to first floor to visit the place where Lord Rama's idol is located.Either I was lacking in my concentration that day or I had already tutored my mind that I am visiting only 'Ramar'Temple.I have worshiped Shiva in Lingam form in many temples.It was totally in reverance to Lors Shiva' and such thinking has never entered my mind.The wrong idea that has gone into the mind of your wife in the first instance gets repeated whenever and wherever she had visited the Shiva temple on subsequent occasions.
Ps:- I had posted a lengthy post at 2.22 pm.When I wanted to correct some spelling mistake,I found that only the last portion of the sentence
has been retained and the rest has been erased.Even the number of posts made by me has not increased.This has happenned to me a numberof times.I do not know the reason.Sometime time I get indication at the time of posting 'Automatically saved' but not on all occasions.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
Next time you visit India,Please take your children to 'LOTUS Temple"(Bhahai centre) in New Delhi and Vivekananda Memorial Rock in Kanyakumari.
They will really enjoy the 'Dyan Mandap' hall in VMR,Kanyakumari.
As to your wife's experience in Shiva Temples,I have only to say the following.
Before moving to Chennai from Newdelhi,my wife requested me
to accompany her to 'Ramar' Temple in Lodhi Road.I am not a regular visitor to temples.Reluctantly I accompanied her.After worship in
a few Sannadhis in the ground floor,I was keen to come out of the temple.I told my wife that Ramar vigraham is really very good and let us go outas we had to visit another place..She laughed at me and told me that I had seen some other Sannadhis and we have to go to first floor to visit the place where Lord Rama's idol is located.Either I was lacking in my concentration that day or I had already tutored my mind that I am visiting only 'Ramar'Temple.I have worshiped Shiva in Lingam form in many temples.It was totally in reverance to Lors Shiva' and such thinking has never entered my mind.The wrong idea that has gone into the mind of your wife in the first instance gets repeated whenever and wherever she had visited the Shiva temple on subsequent occasions.
Ps:- I had posted a lengthy post at 2.22 pm.When I wanted to correct some spelling mistake,I found that only the last portion of the sentence
has been retained and the rest has been erased.Even the number of posts made by me has not increased.This has happenned to me a numberof times.I do not know the reason.Sometime time I get indication at the time of posting 'Automatically saved' but not on all occasions.

Dear Krish Sir:

Yes, I will try to take my family to the places you cited... only problem is my kids are now independent and have their own life to lead!

I have been to Vivekananda Memorial Rock. I liked it.

My wife said that she did not know anything about Lingam worship as long as she was in India... only after coming over here to the US, and some of her friends talked about it on some occasion, she started reading about it further... she did not like what she read, it appears.

I agree devotees NEED not know about all the historical developments of Lingam worship etc... for them God is God... no matter what the history says.

Please tell me if you want, why Dancing Nataraja is not in every Shiva Temple? I understand only a few have...

I may be wrong here.

Cheers.

 

[kameshratnam]

i have been to the lotus temple and a man who works for that place forced me to sit for some more time when i had to leave. Then i politely told him that i cannot sit there any more.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
I think there is a separate sannadhi in all Shiva temples for'Dancing Nataraja'.People like Shri.Sangom may be able to explain as to why
Lord Shiva is worshiped only in Lingam form as a main deity in all Shiva temples and a separate sannadhi for 'Dancing Nataraja'.
Dear Shri.Kameshratnam,
I agree with you that though the place is meant for 'meditation',it is visited only by tourists for sightseeing.The building and the hall is very large and a prominent location in New Delhi.

 

[Raghy]

Raghy in post #227:

.

Your Gurukkal was wrong in his understanding of the deity which he was serving life long. May be it was not his fault because he was taught that way by his elders. My point is only this that we need not search all the meanings that are available for the word 'lingA' in Sanskrit and zero in on the 'male sexual organ' to understand the Linga concept. There is reasonable logical ground to maintain that the meaning was only'indicative of'. As for the pourusham/prakruthi etc there are far better ways to explain them and our ancestors were far more resourceful than to rely on such silly images to explain their philosophical concepts. Whether you were comfortable or not with the terms used by the Gurukkal is beside the point.



For a people or a religion to be accepted as 'broad-minded' it is not necessary that they should accept sex or sex-talk anywhere and everywhere. I think we are confusing culture with misinterpretation/mischief in religious matters here. I am quite comfortable talking about all aspects of sex with an adult individual. But to expect me to accept such sex-talk in a temple that too by a Gurukkal and that too about the deity which I have gone there to worship is just crazy. Arthanareeswara is okay as there is no sexual overtones and you can comfortably explain it to your grandchild without feeling awkward.

Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

I have no desire to open a debate with you about Siva Lingam.

The Gurukkal who spoke to me was well educated with Agama rules. He studied eith in Tirupathi or in Kalahasthi. He did not explain anything to me in the temple; he explained all these things and much more at his own residence. He was (still his family is) our neighbour in the village. He was highly respected by his peers and by the general public irrespective of caste; he had kind words of all and sundry.

When he explained the parts, he did not initiate the conversation. I was the one who was talking about Siva Lingam and was struggling to identify a specific portion of the siva Lingam; he explained me about the make-up of Siva Lingam. Yes, he used words like 'ஆணுறுப்பு, பெண்ணுறுப்பு, ஆவுடையார்'. But he did not give me a lesson in sex though. Sex was not seen as a sin in Hinduism. In every temple, there is at least one carving with explicit sexual act, which is slighly in excess in Kajuraho. At one time in the distant past, regular poojas and prayers must have taken place in Kajuraho; I don't think it was built for the sole purpose as a tourist attraction.

In Hindu philosophy, we say 'God' is everywhere. So, what is wrong in seeing divinity in an act copulation? I am not belittling our ancestors resourcefullness at all. It takes a lot of resourcefulness to promote divinity through a very simple act. They were smart enough to bring out a divine message through a 'C grade' concept. If we did not want to talk about sex in the temples, then our Gods should not have consorts either. Kodungaloor Devi is said to like only 'sex talk' on a chosen day every year. I am sure, you are well aware of that.

Sir, with respect, if we try to bring out multi various explanations for siva Lingam, it can only lead to multivarious debates. If we just say, 'yes; it is a sexual act; we are matured enough to see divinity even in a sexual act' and consistently maintain that, all the debates and arguments ridiculing Siva Lingam will vanish.

Cheers!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
I happened to read a post(in another Forum) from one Shri.Si Va Ya Na Ma Srinivasan from Houston,Texas about the need to translate
Thevaram (Tamil Verses)in praise of Lord Shiva in different languages..He seems to be a knowledgeable person on 'Saiva Siddhantam'.If you have a chance to meet him in Houston,You may take his views on Shiva Lingam worship in Shiva Temples.

 

[suraju06]

Reference Yamaka in #239:

I doubt seriously whether you have any such friends! ROFL.. then LOL.
Why can't you write about anything YOU have achieved, if any? Are you so prudish? I want to rejoice about you, surely.

I do not emulate bad examples.

I stand by my numbers;

Hindus worldwide about 1 billion
Christians ,, 2 billions
Muslims ,, 1.5 billions
Non-God worshipers 2.5 billions
Most of the Christians in the West will not put up with the religiosity of the East or the Arab world.
Please show me your math on this...
If Santa Claus is the most important person during Christmas, tell me how Christian most Christians are?!
Love you, Raju!

Hindus+Christians+Muslims=God Worshippers=1+2+1.5=4.5 billion
Non-god worshippers = 2.5 billions

4.5>2.5.

Q.E.D.!!

Santa Claus is certainly not an avatar of Devil. Religiosity is difficult to be determined. It varies from community to community the common denominator being belief in God.

A natural science scientist can not appreciate more maths than this and so I stop with this.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Raghy's post #255:

I have no desire to open a debate with you about Siva Lingam

.

Dear Raghy,

So nice of you. Thank you. Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri.Rishikesan,
I have four daughters and one son.Whenever my wife was pregnant,my boss cum family friend(who was an astrologer and knew by heart my horoscope and that of my wife) used to tell me in the third month of pregnancy that my wife would deliver only a female child.He used to often tell me that he would choose the appropriate time when we should try for a male child.I did not give serious consideration to his advice.
In 1960 my Maharastrian friend told me that according to Aurvedic philosophy,if the girl is acidic,she will get only girls as children.Ladies who are alkaline will deliver male children.There is a method in Aurveda for conversion from acidic to alkaline.He tried the Ayurvedic method and got a son after 5 daughters.
.....

Yes, it is true that if the genital tracts of male and female are acidic, the progeny will be mostly female. This is supported by medical science. The acidic male produces more of the X-chromosome sperm (female producing) because the male sperm has a very short life in any acidic medium; nature itself has designed the female with greater tenacity and surviving capacity. For instance are widows or widowers more when there is no great war?

The vaginal tract is generally acidic but the pH value (3.8 to 4.5, slightly acidic, usually) can now be measured at home even. The male-producing sperms are at a disadvantage in this environ and unless there are enough and more of these, the chance is for the X-sperm to reach and fertilize the ovum.

Generally, men and women who are angry, worrying type, stressful, negative characteristics, fond of the pungent, sour, bitter tastes, etc., tend to be congenitally acidic and it is more probable that they get female progeny only.

Another factor is the distance to be travelled by the discharged sperm. The longer the distance, the more the chances of female child. This depends on physiology of the couple.

 

[sangom]

Sir, with respect, if we try to bring out multi various explanations for siva Lingam, it can only lead to multivarious debates. If we just say, 'yes; it is a sexual act; we are matured enough to see divinity even in a sexual act' and consistently maintain that, all the debates and arguments ridiculing Siva Lingam will vanish.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

I don't remember anybody 'ridiculing' the lingam or lingam worship; the discussion here is about whether it is a fertility sign or something different like skambha etc. Am I right?

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Raghy,

I don't remember anybody 'ridiculing' the lingam or lingam worship; the discussion here is about whether it is a fertility sign or something different like skambha etc. Am I right?

So, you are doubtful??

 

[sangom]

So, you are doubtful??

yes, pl.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

I don't remember anybody 'ridiculing' the lingam or lingam worship; the discussion here is about whether it is a fertility sign or something different like skambha etc. Am I right?

Dear Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings.

No. Siva Lingam worship is not ridiculed in this discussion or in this forum. In the past, I used to frequent sites dedicated to other religions. In those sites I have come across slightful messages. I used to write exactly what I wrote here. So, you are right; Siva Lingam worship is not ridiculed in this discussion.

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sangom,

Shri Narayan,

What you say is logical but what I wrote was from whatever I had read. I am sorry I cannot furnish the relevant references at this point of time.

But the time frame of these beliefs (matriarchy, lingam worship, etc.) are also not clear. So, is there not a possibility that these beliefs originated even earlier than the domestication of animals?



Once more, this from whatever I have read over a long period of time. I agree matriarchy may be there even now but will that negate its origin? Is there any law of nature to the effect that societies should, suo moto, reform as soon as they realize their wrong beliefs? Did we not need legislation to remove practices like sati, untouchability, etc? Anyway, the matriarchy in Kerala is now practised only by the Travancore royal family for their own private reasons, imo.

I did understand from your earlier posts in this thread that the knowledge you disseminated are from various sources and I do not dispute any of them, nor do I need their sources. My only point was that there are grey areas which are not cleared, so this theory may not be the only explanation for lingam worship.

well, well, hope you have seen a cow well. and know a bit of bestiality (zooerasty)! Why should man, primitive man give more importance to the bull's (with a curvature) or elephant's when he has one always with him?

I really do not understand the above two statements. Sometimes it appears to be a light-hearted comment or may be a mildly mocking one. But then again my perception could be wrong.

My objection still stands as to why the "yoni" and "lingam" could not be that of a cow and a bull. After all there is a full anuvaka in chamakam starting with "garBhAscha me, vatsAscha me...... etc." asking for calves of various ages.. and the next anuvaka clearly asking for "ukshAcha me, rishabhascha me, Dhenuscha me" etc. Conventionally the chamaka praSna is addressed to Siva or rudra or rudra-Siva etc. and he is understood as "paSupathi". Bestiality or cross-breeding of elephant or rhino with cow would have hardly produced the required output of calves for economic activity.

When google search is there why this request? I just googled "shiva as god of fertility" and there are 4,04,000 results.

Google search slipped my mind while typing out my response.


Regards,

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara,

"why not yoni and lingam of a cow?" is still valid. So, why not? What is your take on it? Just curious.

My view is that lingam worship is symbolism of paSupathi, as the lord of "paSus" - cattle basically and not the extended meaning of "paSus" generally explained as living beings tied or bound etc. It does ask for bestowal of 'cattle wealth" as explained in chamaka praSna of taittiriya samhita. Anuvaka 4.7.10 is quite unambiguous and asks for all sorts of cows and bulls ranging from pregnant cow to an infertile one and a young bull to a very old one and calves of both sexes of all ages. So I would tend to believe that the "yoni" and "lingam" pertains to the cow and bull.

. Adding to this surprise is the fact people today try to give esoteric explanations as though they are embarrassed by what it really is and what it originally meant to "Hindus". (Lest I am misunderstood, this is a genuine query, I am not trying to belittle the practice.)

Sometimes people tend to "explain away" things rather than explaining the thing. Some esoteric explanations may be the result of such rationalisation. I do not feel there is anything to be embarrassed about lingam worship.

But there is an alternative explanation of a "beam of light" or "skambha" given in koorma puraNa, considering the beam of light as parabrahman. And there is the puranic episode of Brahma and Vishnu taking the shape of anna-pakshi and varaha and trying to reach the top and bottom of lingam (or beam of light)

Regards,

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

I am a close follower of the Rhodes Scholarship program for professional reasons.

Little wonder that your postings carry a distinct flavor which may not appeal to the sensitivities of a few other members.

Kannan

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear yamaka !
thanks for your sincere and honest reply.but i did not get the answer "whether we can decide/get the gender after having sex" so many articles i read about body temperature,days after period, food habit etc. for getting the desired baby. by GOD's grace i am blessed with a daughter and 2 sons without following those theories.but how many people are able to get sex according to the NEED and WANT?
i am very much interested to hear the complete conversation bet your beloved son and pnel members which is a rare thing for so many i f you can .if it is out of contest to this forum you can please allow me to contact by email i am very much moved by son reply
"It's all because of my moral stand in Pragmatic Solidarity with the Poor and the Voiceless in the World!"
cheers

 

[Yamaka]

dear yamaka !
thanks for your sincere and honest reply.but i did not get the answer "whether we can decide/get the gender after having sex" so many articles i read about body temperature,days after period, food habit etc. for getting the desired baby. by GOD's grace i am blessed with a daughter and 2 sons without following those theories.but how many people are able to get sex according to the NEED and WANT?
i am very much interested to hear the complete conversation bet your beloved son and pnel members which is a rare thing for so many i f you can .if it is out of contest to this forum you can please allow me to contact by email i am very much moved by son reply
"It's all because of my moral stand in Pragmatic Solidarity with the Poor and the Voiceless in the World!"
cheers

Dear Guru:

1. It is impossible to get the gender after having sex. And, I strongly believe that X-sperm and Y-sperm have EQUAL chance of reaching the egg. Thus the chance if boy or girl is strictly 50:50.

Elsewhere there is discussion about "acidic" and "alkaline" nature of the female sex organ. I don't know of any such thing.

2. Not many people get sex according to the NEED and WANT. Here I want to emphasize that wife reaching orgasm every time sex is tried is VERY important. I have said earlier "Men are very selfish that they just don't care about the orgasm of the female!" Most men get orgasm very easily, while most women need more time and that's not understood by most men - they quickly finish their act and forget about her needs. This is a serious mistake. We need lot of sex education in Indian Society. But our culture is very prudish about it.

3. Rhodes Selection Process is long and hard. First the College/University must sponsor the Application which has a 1000 word personal statement solely written by the Candidate w/o any help from anybody. The College sponsors usually the highest GPA students (3.8 and above out of 4.0 scale).

The interview goes for two days in both informal and formal settings. The panel wants to know the REAL inside personality of the Candidates and to decide whether he/she can "Fight the World's Fight" the sole purpose of the Scholarship as envisioned by the philanthropist Cecil J. Rhodes of Britain.

They quickly knew that my son came from Haiti to attend the interview. They wanted to listen to him as to why he chose to go to Haiti, the rationale and the motivation for such decision.

"Standing in Pragmatic Solidarity with the Poor and the Voiceless in the World" is my son's motto in life, as he says to me.

Some of the questions and themes in the interview are:

Why people are poor or rich? How people become voiceless? What's political, social and economic freedom, and how to achieve it? How to move in the economic ladder? What's called Equal Opportunity? Can everybody achieve Equal Outcome? What's Female Empowerment? What's Modernity and why and how Islam is opposed to it?

Why there is Euro Crisis? Can EMU survive? What's the contagion? Is free trade is good for all countries all the time?

Is American Exceptionalism true? How? Do you believe American is in decline? Are the developing India and China good for the world?

Mahatma Gandhi: A Social Reformer, An Economic Reformer or A Political Thunderbolt - Comment and elaborate. What are the issues confronting Indians today? What will the Mahatma do to address them, in your view?

If you have a chance to change the world, what will you do first? etc etc.

My son said these questions were not difficult for him because many of this we have argued at home in the past 2-4 years! Since he was a Debater in High School, he was comfortable in arguing his points.

He used to tell me "No one can intimidate Yamakas!" LOL.

And, my son had a pinch of luck also that he got the Rhodes in the first attempt.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

So I would tend to believe that the "yoni" and "lingam" pertains to the cow and bull.

Thank you Narayan, your explanation makes lot of sense to me. However, the problem explaining why this being worshiped even in modern times to kids is still not mitigates, no?

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Reference Yamaka in #239:
I do not emulate bad examples.



Hindus+Christians+Muslims=God Worshippers=1+2+1.5=4.5 billion
Non-god worshippers = 2.5 billions

4.5>2.5.

Q.E.D.!!

Santa Claus is certainly not an avatar of Devil. Religiosity is difficult to be determined. It varies from community to community the common denominator being belief in God.

A natural science scientist can not appreciate more maths than this and so I stop with this.

Cheers.

Dearest Raju:

I see you tactically added my numbers and proved your math skills! ROFL..then LOL.

The problem is,

If you ask your Hindutva people around you, they will tell you that you just can't add up the Abrahamic Believers with that of Hindu Believers: for one has the hallmarks of Janma Poorva Karma (Hindus) which is antithetical to others.

And, Abrahamic Believers are dead against the idol/pagan worship of Hindus... definitely you just can't add them up and smile!

And, the original posters intent and spirit was to show that Hinduism was growing...which I contest: More and more people are walking away from Orthodox Hinduism. And the Pragmatic approach is the order of the day... more and more people are becoming week-end/month-end/year-end wannabees.

More and more people consider Hinduism as a Cultural Link to the Distant Past... Hinduism as we know it will not be there in a couple of generations! Wait & watch.

Anyway, I admire your God-given Sanathana Dharma and its practical use in verbal combat!

Love you, Raju.

Cheers.

ps. In the WEST, most Christians consider Christmas to be a joyful holiday to express their love and joy to the family, relative and friends by getting gifts from Santa... hardly 10% celebrate it as the birthday of Baby Jesus with Nativity Scenes... Believe me.

 

[Yamaka]

Raghy's post #255:

.

Dear Raghy,

So nice of you. Thank you. Cheers. [/COLOR]

I like Raghy's position on this Lingam issue.

That just accept what's shown there ARE Phallus and Vagina, and the Sex.

Then argue "What's wrong in it - it is not vulgar, it's just Natural?!!".

Not, sex = pebble and no sex = diamond, as per your other post.

White washing will not work for our 14 year old boys in large Cosmopolitan cities! Beware!!

 

[suraju06]

Reference Yamaka's 269:

If you ask your Hindutva people around you, they will tell you that you just can't add up the Abrahamic Believers with that of Hindu Believers: for one has the hallmarks of Janma Poorva Karma (Hindus) which is antithetical to others.

The Hindutva people as well as the Jihadis and Seventhdayites agree that Believers are Believers whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Xian and that God is the common denominator between them. After confirming this they start fighting as to who is the real god. so you are clearly on a loosing wicket.

And, Abrahamic Believers are dead against the idol/pagan worship of Hindus... definitely you just can't add them up and smile!

Yes. So what?

And, the original posters intent and spirit was to show that Hinduism was growing...which I contest: More and more people are walking away from Orthodox Hinduism. And the Pragmatic approach is the order of the day... more and more people are becoming week-end/month-end/year-end wannabees.

You may say so. Others need not agree with you.

More and more people consider Hinduism as a Cultural Link to the Distant Past... Hinduism as we know it will not be there in a couple of generations! Wait & watch.

Wishful thinking.

Anyway, I admire your God-given Sanathana Dharma and its practical use in verbal combat!

I do not understand this. What do you want to say?

ps. In the WEST, most Christians consider Christmas to be a joyful holiday to express their love and joy to the family, relative and friends by getting gifts from Santa... hardly 10% celebrate it as the birthday of Baby Jesus with Nativity Scenes... Believe me.

A statement of the Obvious. We are all aware of this. In India too this is the situation with Xians.

 

[suraju06]

Reference Yamaka's #270:

Not, sex = pebble and no sex = diamond, as per your other post

.

You have not understood what I said.

Inexactitude/lie/ignorance=pebble and truth/reality=diamond

LOL.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Raju:

My response in bold letters below: My stand is you just can't add up the disparate people and call them they are the SAME because God is God...

Reference Yamaka's 269:



The Hindutva people as well as the Jihadis and Seventhdayites agree that Believers are Believers whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Xian and that God is the common denominator between them. After confirming this they start fighting as to who is the real god. so you are clearly on a loosing wicket.

For Muslims, Allah = God, for Christians, Jesus = Son of God, Holy Spirit and God, and for Hindus, Ishwara or a combination of Brahma, Siva, Krishna and their various derivatives and hundreds of other deities are Gods. Their characteristics as described in their Holy Books are quite different. For Muslims, all other religious followers are Kafirs to be shunned. For example, there were Crusades of Christians against the Muslims to capture and re-capture Jerusalam with so much blood lost. Why?

In what these Believers believe is the key here... they Believe in quite different ideas and concepts. That the Jihadis and Hindutva people understood clearly.



Yes. So what? If you say yes, then why do you add the numbers I gave you?



You may say so. Others need not agree with you.



Wishful thinking.



I do not understand this. What do you want to say? Just self explanatory! Don't pretend to sleep, Raju dear!



A statement of the Obvious. We are all aware of this. In India too this is the situation with Xians. If you do, then why do you add up my numbers and smile! Do you want to steal a wicket? LOL

 

[Yamaka]

Reference Yamaka's #270:

.

You have not understood what I said.

Inexactitude/lie/ignorance=pebble and truth/reality=diamond

LOL.

Cheers.

Because, your views and writings are quite confusing, wrong and possibly contradictory!

Cheers.