I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.If a person can't survive for 2 months in the forum
take it from me NOBODY is going to miss him/her.
Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,
It is customary to offer Rs.101,or Rs.1001 when we are invited to participate in functions.IMHO, it would have been nice if you had offered 1001(and not 1000)apologies to Shri.Nara.
I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.
Initially I ignored this post, but perplexingly enough, I see it has attracted two "Likes". What is there to "Like" this gratuitous attack on a fellow member? One may disagree with the opinions of Subbudu sir, but "Liking" an attack on him is not the way to express disagreement.
விஸ்வாமித்திரரின் போஸில் நின்று கொண்டு
"1. போவேன்! 2. போகப்போறேன்!! 3. போயாச்சு!!!"
"போகாதே போகாதே என் நண்பா !
பொல்லாத சொப்பனம் நான் கண்டேன்!"
இந்த மெலோ டிராமா இங்கே நன்றாக இல்லை!
இவை திரைப்படங்களில் ஓ.கே! வாழ்வில் அல்ல!
வரும் போதும் / சேரும் போதும் நமக்காக
எவரும் "பராக்! பராக்! "கட்டியம் கூறவில்லை!
போகும்போது மட்டும் ஏன் இத்தனை கலாட்டா?
Pack off and take off as quietly as you had come in!
What is the similarity between a lavatory and a cemetery?
When you HAVE to go...you have TO GO!
Add the Forum also to this list!
It does deserve a place in it!
I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.
Initially I ignored this post, but perplexingly enough, I see it has attracted two "Likes". What is there to "Like" this gratuitous attack on a fellow member? One may disagree with the opinions of Subbudu sir, but "Liking" an attack on him is not the way to express disagreement.
Dear Friends,
I was not inclined to make any further contribution, by way of post, especially after my statement here that I assure you, on my integrity, that I will not be making any post except in this thread, as and when necessary to continue our mutual discussion.
I have been visiting the forum once in a while, however, as a silent reader. This thread came to my notice (only) today. After reading Shri Subbudu's OP and the various further contributions from many able members, I thought I will be excused if I break my aforesaid promise and write a few lines on what I feel Tabras and hypocrisy. For those who felt much relieved at my exit and even openly wrote about it, I say that my posts may be only very few rare like the Blue Moon.
Tabras just like most human beings have varying degrees of hypocrisy, and it is impossible to live without this skill, IMO. But here, in this forum, I feel we are mostly concerned with the brahmanic hypocrisy, i.e., the double standards shown by many tabras in preaching one type of Brahmanic way of life in the posts made here and the actual implementation of these ways in their real life. To me it seems that this hypocrisy is due to the fact that almost all tabras today have lost all validity and legitimacy to call themselves as Brahmanas but since the caste tag attaches to them forcefully, especially when it gives undesirable results such as in reservation of seats and jobs, there is a sort of intense conflict in the minds of the tabras; much as they may prefer changing their caste label to some SC, ST or OBC caste, since that is not legally possible, there is a natural tendency to adopt whatever is suitable for their material well-being at the realistic day-to-day (lower reality as denoted in the thread on "Flaws of Advaitha") life, but emotionally make up for this by preaching Brahmanic virtues. It will be observed that much has been discussed only about "poonal", sandhyavandanam and Gayatree in this forum and, to the uninitiated, it will give a picture as though these three items will make one become a 100% Brahmana. In reality however we have ceased to be Brahmanas for at least 6 or 7 generations. (My maternal grandmother once told me that her father-in-law's father used to do Oupaasanam regularly but after him no one did that.) Still we are unable to shake off this now-disadvantageous caste tag. Hence the aforesaid double strategy (love-hate) which is tantamount to discarding Brahmanism at the individual level but showing off such devalued and unfollowed Brahmanism before everyone else, so that this increases the pressure on others to do the same "devalue in private-extol in public" towards Brahmanism with more and more vigour. Psychologically perhaps this "praise the garbaged Brahmanism" attitude gives vicarious satisfaction of having given this unwelcome Brahman tag, the treatment that it deserves. I am reminded of the usual introductory sentence of many members to the effect "I am proud to be a brahmin."
I am very well aware that there will be very strong reactions to this post because truth is not always palatable. While such responses may come, I do not propose to answer or defend my view/s.
Speaking about Hypocrites...Some here do not use their real names and we know nuts about them too even though some might write as if they are defenders of the universe..so isnt that being a hypocrite too?
So no big deal..all of us have faults.
போகும்போது மட்டும் ஏன் இத்தனை கலாட்டா?
Pack off and take off as quietly as you had come in!
What is the similarity between a lavatory and a cemetery?
When you HAVE to go...you have TO GO!
Resp.VR...
The above quoted portion deserves paying in gold... it suits all situations.... kudos to you ........ Hence I am recording my "Like".....
One doubt..
For lavatory there can be a suffering and suffocating waiting... (remember a Kamal Hasan film ,As a bachelor, waiting in front of the common lavatory in the lodge, he loses his turn for some mightier ones.. sorry not able to recollect name of the film.. but now I vividly recollect the scene..that type of waiting is really killing.. that is why..Thenali Raman told his King that the best comfort is the lighter situation after visiting lavatory...). And in the case of lavatory, a comeback is possible..but in cemetry...except for some diagnostic mistake...
God Forbid.... Jokes apart..
Let everyone live his/her life to the fullest with all comforts...
Let everyone be magnanimous to accommodate each other..
Greetings..
.
Let us be honest. If somebody believes in the vedas they should fully go into vaideekam. Neither the vaidikas are stopping them from learning vedas nor is it impossible
. They should also grow kudumi ……a white collar job is not needed for the believer. The people who live their life by priesthood survived 50 years back and they survive even now. An often quoted saying is -Dharmo Rakshathi Rakshitha. Who is preventing this modern weekend brahmins from hurling themselves fully into the world of tradition. If one can pass an engineering exam , I am sure he is capable of learning vedas with a basic degree of proficiency. That should be enough for his survival
The retort of this wannabe brahmins is they are following tradition to the best of their ability, which is not true and is obviously glaring. That is fine. But it becomes very hypocritical when people parade their orthodoxy. A gentleman I know - the wannabe orthodox man, who recites rudram listening to a tape recorder, he has no problem eating in hotels and other places. That is fine that is this man's definition of orthodoxy. When his child married an NB, this man who visited his sambandi to fix the marriage( much to his disinclination) , he refused to have even coffee or tea at the sambandi's house( trying to prove a point that he is a brahmanan). How much hurt the NB would have been. This is the wannabe orthodox in full action
There are hundreds of examples. The wannabe orthodox as I have seen wants the best of both worlds , modern lifestyle and easy tradition. What I mean by easy tradition, is tradition that does not call for a major sacrifice in their life style. Like the man who kept commenting about the vulgarity in tv songs, but yet continued to switch the channel and watch them. Either stop watching things, admit your mistake and talk about vulgarity. Or keep quiet. Or say that there is nothing wrong with such pictures on tv
The wannabe orthodox talks of high things like advaita, dvaita etc. Some of them speak ill of people of counter philosophy. Only a simple examination of their life style will reveal their true colors. There should not be a difference in what we believe and what we do.
Raju says there cannot be a dialogue between the modern and the orthodox
If the orthodox is truly sincere, and a good man, it is easy to have a conversation with him. Two vadhiyars- One I will call the kova karar and the other I shall call santha swaroopan. The former vadhiyar we have seen too many, gets irritated by the little things in a puja. I remember a ceremony in which one such orthodox vadhiyar kept on smacking is forehead with the little apacharams going on. He wss irritated with panchagacham not being worn properly, by somebody not following his instructions etc. It is difficult for many to have dialogue with such people. But I can say with confidence that I know some pleasant tempered orthodox people………….
If you are a straight person , you would follow tradition may be with a blend of modernity. But you will not make fun of modern values
I agree all of us are hypocrites , but we need to change, change for the better. The line has been crossed when we hold false notions of superiority to top it all. Let us not pretend to be advaitins, smarthan, purva mimasakans etc without immersing ourselves fully in it. Say boldly I am a modern person, I am not sure about my religion and philosophy or I am not convinced fully or say I am greedy for money and material values or say I am not convinced that god will protect me if I follow vedam. So I blend it with modernism. Then it is good. But all this tamasha of high philosophy and low living is no good.
1. Smoking is bad and not suitable for Brahmins. But then how about Snuff and tobacco chewing the community had permitted for decades? It permits even taking of opium.
2. We keep on insisting that Brahmins never took meat though history reveals other way round. We rewrite the story of Agasthya and Vathapi to reflect our new found thinking. Twist history. Then swear that the Vedic Yagnas never involved animal sacrifices. Anyone who says otherwise is blamed for reading western translations. Blame the Englishmen and westerners for all our ills.
3. Deny that women were treated very badly by our society. They were treated as property. Insist that child marriages were a blessing.
4. A child born of a marriage between a Brahmin and a Sudra can never be a Brahmin. Then pray how is Veda Vyasa the son of Sathyavathi a fisher woman a Brahmin? In fact the entire kuru race were the descendants of Sathyavathi a shudra.
The younger generation is appalled at this hypocracy.
I declare unequivocally that I have no claim whatsoever to the ownership of these terms. They indeed belong to Mr. Nara who coined them first.K, I have to take severe exception to this. The two terms, "weekend brahmins" and "wannabe orthodox" are mine, I was the one who first introduced them to the delight of some, I optimistically presume, and to the chagrin of many as my ego would have it.
Some justification this! Same justification if it comes from any other wannabe Brahmin should also be acceptable.Hypocrisy comes in so many flavors, doesn't it? A confirmed atheist, what would I do when my father passes away as all of us one day will? I will do what my mother and other family members I respect expect of me, and that would be hypocrisy, I know. But I think the charge of hypocrisy against me is a small price to pay for the sake of my mother's and other family member's mental satisfaction.
There is no difference between the two. The alcohol consuming Brahmin may regret his easy ways and may be trying to find solace, support and comfort in the realm of orthodoxy. Why should we condemn him for ever?I was an intimate part of the so called "orthodox" and "traditional" brahmins, the ones who learn the Vedas and are steadfast in their misguided faith. I have first-hand experience with the kind of hypocrisy they engage in. But, I am sympathetic to their hypocrisy, because their hypocrisy is motivated by survival, making a living. Contrast this with the hypocrisy of the wannabe orthodoxy, the weekend brahmin (TM) , these are the ones who feel comfortable nursing Scotch on the rocks in a 5* hotel one evening, and adorn the marks of orthodoxy the next day. This is the kind of hypocrisy that Subbudu sir is talking about, I think, one that applies double standard.
The unabashed celebration of one’s success, as long as it remains harmless to others, is an indulgence. Just as the cry of the confirmed atheist, the bragging is also just empty the moment it is uttered and served a purpose. It would have served its purpose to the owners while for others it would be just gibberish.When I see my own relatives, middle-class professionals, having a comfortable life-style, talking about Brahmin "pedigree" as if humans are some sort of dog genetically manipulated by an unseen higher-being keeping track of karma, enough to make a confirmed atheist, cry out oh lord!
IMO, they are harming the younger generation, pouring their poison of Brahmin exclusivity/superiority into the unsuspecting younguns. This, in all probability, is not intentional, but they ought to know better.
Dear Mr. Subbudu,
As you had chosen to post this in this thread instead of the thread “In defence of……”
I missed it this long. Now let us look at it:
Yes let us be honest. Vedas is knowledge. Vaideekam, as I understand from the context here given by you, is making a living with the knowledge of Vedas as purohits. If I am wrong in my inference please correct me. Vedas can be learnt by any one if he is really interested and if he approaches the right teacher who is ready to teach him.
Obviously there is some confusion. Kudumi has nothing to do with your ability to learn veda. It is a discipline which orthodoxy would insist on for various other reasons. If the teacher insists that you should have a kudumi to learn Vedas you will have to agree to that as it is you who want knowledge. It is like equipping yourself with a TOEFEL certificate when you apply for admission in a US University. You have the freedom to remove your kudumi after learning the Vedas. In any case, kudumi is not at all a big issue when we are discussing matters which are more cerebral!
]People who have chosen to have a kudumi or a turban are not bothered about the acceptance of it by others. If the society can tolerate many other such things it will have to tolerate this also.
We are all prisoners of circumstances. You know what are the earnings of a purohit today. When the supply increases and the demand remains static, economic forces will take over and you would expect the purohit to come to your house and offer free services. Moreover we are not living in isolation. We live in a society and time does not stop its march. What you say would have been fine if we still live in the bartering economy. You have a skill, I have another skill. We exchange the services. But now in the monetized economy your skill and my skill are not equal in monetary terms. So I have to earn. The more money I earn more comforts I get. This being the case where is the scope for “hurling oneself fully into the tradition”?
Dear friend, every one follows tradition to the extent possible. Before I take up your point let me say this: chanting rudram after listening to it from a tape recorder is not bad. He did not have the time to learn rudram from a teacher and so he is making use of the modern gadget to learn it. Even Vedas do not prevent you from using modern implements if they are available.
If the “man” you refer to had refused to accept the invitation of his sambandhi he would still have been hurt. I can refer to any number of “men” in similar circumstance who have plainly told their “sambandhi” that they are deeply hurt by the action of their sons/daughters and hence would not have anything to do with their families. As you would prefer to call it, this is wannabe brahmins’ dilemma and their way of finding a solution. It varies from individual to individual. All said, you can not fault a wannabe Brahmin for his desire to live by the values he has picked up being a member of a Brahmin family. He may not be successful every time. But the desire per se is not a sin. So what is your objection?
What you have said is applicable to wannabe and not wannabe Brahmins also. This is a human weakness. Now in reply to your example, I can point out at least a hundred wannabe Brahmins that I know who strictly skip the vulgar channels in their tv. Shall we conduct a poll as to know who is the majority and the true state of affairs? I have nothing more to say about this.
What did you find from their life style? What are the true colors? I hope you are not talking about the philosophical debates in which people point out the flaws in the arguments of the counter party. If a wannabe Brahmin who is not a participant in such a debate speaks ill of another person there are remedies for that. But that will not include wholesale branding.
Did I say that? I said only that the dialogue can not be continued if any of the two parties to the dialogue decides that there are no common denominators in their perceptions or if they conclude that it is a dead end. However, the orthodox would like to avoid the reformists if they know them to be reformists because they have learnt from their experience with other reformists that the agenda is a single point, take it or leave it, one.
I am sure you would have abandoned the ‘kovakkarar’ and engaged the ‘santhaswaroopy’. Such issues are solved in the natural way.
This is the essence of all that I stand for. You have said it, finally.
The dictionary gives the meaning of the word hypocrisy as—falsely pretending to be virtuous: insincerity. I am not a hypocrite. But I am sure about what my religion says. I am convinced fully that it tells me the final truth. I sincerely believe that God will accept me if I remain a good human being as prescribed in the scriptures. I will tell this to any one. If you happen to know me personally you may find me to be an ordinary human being with many frailties and imperfections. I am also aware of them. But that does not prevent me nor does it deny me the liberty to have all those convictions that I have listed above. When I tell some one that the Vedas tell the truth I know I am not insincere. If some one asks me whether I follow the scriptures I will tell him “yes. To the extent possible for me”. There is no false pretension here. I will certainly tell my children to be good hindus and good Brahmins. If they ask me whether I had been I will tell them that I had tried to be one. The judgment is for others to make. This is basically what is all about wannabe Brahmins. I am one of them. The majority of wannabe Brahmins are like me. They are neither orthodox, knowing the scriptures fairly well nor the mavericks who are in a tearing hurry to abandon every thing with nihilistic fervor. They are Brahmins who sincerely believe that old wisdom is not all that bad. Nor do they think that change is bad. They would like to accept only that which is not there in their old wisdom already. And their plea to reform enthusiasts like you is to please leave them alone
Visa, re your post #31:
You yourself are a prolific poster in this forum. Also a large fan following, as far I know.
thank you -if you really feel so!
If you decide to stop posting, I, along with many other folks here, would definitely wonder about the reasons for living.
Now you are KIDDING!
And as in any live community, the absence of a member, hurts.
I never told sri Subbudu to quit the forum!
He wants to quit on his own.
I believe that quitters never win
and winner should never quit!
Admittedly, barring a brief introduction, we do not make a fuss when we join the forum.
But while we are here, we post, make friends, and build bonds. Many such bonds become strong.
Can you say the thing about you and me or you and someone else?
For example, raji ram & yours truly banter a lot, and on many occasions, I comment on her post. In one instance yesterday, I felt I might have stepped outside the limit of polity, and was gratified & reassured that raji did not take any offense.
எக்கேடு கட்டு போகட்டும் attitude for some members quitting , may be seen here. good riddance for others. but many others, including yourself, i would definitely pen a note, if i notice that you are not your usual busy self here. worse still, if suddenly everything ceases. that too, without a pre announcement from you.
I hate to keep people guessing. That is why I always put a note whenever something out of the ordinary happens! I also call back people who have gone into invisible mode to come back into circulation!
you might want to retort, 'why should anyone care if visa stays or leaves?'. but i would care visa. that 's what belonging to this group is all about.
Rest assured i will do no such thing!
hope this explains why some of us feel enriched by subbudu’s presence here.and would miss him deeply if he quits.![]()