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How much of a hypocrite we all are

  • Thread starter Thread starter subbudu1
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I have read a book long time back by a member of NEHRU clan
that nobody is honest for ever and none is dishonest throughout
his life.There could be occasions in everyone's life either to be dishonest(if you think you are always honest) or to be honest
if a person is considered as a dishonest person by the Society.
IMHO,the same will apply for 'Hypocracy' in humans.
 
If a person can't survive for 2 months in the forum

take it from me NOBODY is going to miss him/her.
I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.

Initially I ignored this post, but perplexingly enough, I see it has attracted two "Likes". What is there to "Like" this gratuitous attack on a fellow member? One may disagree with the opinions of Subbudu sir, but "Liking" an attack on him is not the way to express disagreement.
 
Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,
It is customary to offer Rs.101,or Rs.1001 when we are invited to participate in functions.IMHO, it would have been nice if you had offered 1001(and not 1000)apologies to Shri.Nara.


BK,

i did remember, and my first thought was 1001.

then i remembered nara's atheism and rational beliefs. out of respect for such, i limited my apologies to just plain rounded 1000.

the balance one, i will save it, for a future occassion. :)
 
I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.

Initially I ignored this post, but perplexingly enough, I see it has attracted two "Likes". What is there to "Like" this gratuitous attack on a fellow member? One may disagree with the opinions of Subbudu sir, but "Liking" an attack on him is not the way to express disagreement.

This IS NOT for attacking anyone personally or otherwise.

If a person wants to quit he can just quit!

Many people have done it earlier and are doing now and will continue to

do in the future. People disappear and reappear due to various reasons

best known to them.

If a person is busy, unable to spare much time, he can be a silent reader,

or a limited contributor. Who is going to stop him/her?

I WILL register what I feel- whether anyone likes it or not.

Truth ALWAYS hurts. Especially when it IS NOT on your side!

P.S

I find this strange coming from a person whose main job is
gratuitous attack

on a fellow members demoralizing and degrading them if they are novices.

Now THIS too is an expression of hypocrisy !
 
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விஸ்வாமித்திரரின் போஸில் நின்று கொண்டு
"1. போவேன்! 2. போகப்போறேன்!! 3. போயாச்சு!!!"

"போகாதே போகாதே என் நண்பா !
பொல்லாத சொப்பனம் நான் கண்டேன்!"

இந்த மெலோ டிராமா இங்கே நன்றாக இல்லை!
இவை திரைப்படங்களில் ஓ.கே! வாழ்வில் அல்ல!

வரும் போதும் / சேரும் போதும் நமக்காக
எவரும் "பராக்! பராக்! "கட்டியம் கூறவில்லை!

போகும்போது மட்டும் ஏன் இத்தனை கலாட்டா?
Pack off and take off as quietly as you had come in!

What is the similarity between a lavatory and a cemetery?
When you HAVE to go...you have TO GO!

Add the Forum also to this list!
It does deserve a place in it!

 
விஸ்வாமித்திரரின் போஸில் நின்று கொண்டு
"1. போவேன்! 2. போகப்போறேன்!! 3. போயாச்சு!!!"

"போகாதே போகாதே என் நண்பா !
பொல்லாத சொப்பனம் நான் கண்டேன்!"

இந்த மெலோ டிராமா இங்கே நன்றாக இல்லை!
இவை திரைப்படங்களில் ஓ.கே! வாழ்வில் அல்ல!

வரும் போதும் / சேரும் போதும் நமக்காக
எவரும் "பராக்! பராக்! "கட்டியம் கூறவில்லை!

போகும்போது மட்டும் ஏன் இத்தனை கலாட்டா?
Pack off and take off as quietly as you had come in!

What is the similarity between a lavatory and a cemetery?
When you HAVE to go...you have TO GO!

Add the Forum also to this list!
It does deserve a place in it!


Appadi Podu!!!!!!
 
I find this post particularly in bad taste and mean to boot. Subbudu sir does not deserve this. I for one will miss him and therefore the above statement is false as well.

Initially I ignored this post, but perplexingly enough, I see it has attracted two "Likes". What is there to "Like" this gratuitous attack on a fellow member? One may disagree with the opinions of Subbudu sir, but "Liking" an attack on him is not the way to express disagreement.

Thank you for your kind words. I would think it very silly to respond to the post of Visalakshi Ramanan. The purpose of this thread is to highlight the hypocrisy of the TB Community.
If Visalakshi thinks I cant make heartfelt statements just like she thinks she needs to make, it would be most undemocratic.
What is so special about our TB Community.

We are part of the brahmin sect which considers that we have been born out of the head of brahman. Ths is a very very tall claim when we are all so little.

The bottomline is Visalakshi and her coterie cannot tolerate critiscism of the TB Community. That is the only reason to respond to my thread.
I would love to ask Visalakshi one question- why would you want to give me respect by even caring to respond to a a worthless thread from a worthless person?

Yes I want to be productive not just a chatterbox and I will declare that from the rooftop and I am not on my way to cemetry.
I swear you have infused me with new found energy. I will live and live long , long enough to see the ripened fruits of the hypocritic old generation.

. I have seen three generations of orthodoxy. They lived like the heirs to a throne, pretending to be glorious.
Today where are their descendants? The descendants have made their own life and are now leading successfull lives. But yes without all those pretensions and not in the way their fathers and grandfathers would like.

Sangom in this thread was the most knowledgable person here. Today our community in the forum have sent him away with abuses. Critiscims is one abuse is another.
Sarvajith made some of the choiciest of abuses against our gentleman Kunjuppu. I am sure Visalakshi herself would have disliked his manners.
Why did that not provoke her to make a statement. Why me , I have used very normal and neutral statements indicting myself as a person. This is the world of hypocrisy of our old generation.


These are people who feel for the community that is why they cry time and again about hypocrisy. Only those who are our kin critiscize , rest make only fun.

This community is going to learn the hard way. They argue and fight with their well wishers. But eventually never learn from mistakes. Close eyes to hypocrisy.
What do the descendants of such people do. They complete cut off every connection with tradition. Facebook is a good indication of where our youngsters are heading.
One only needs to show the facebook to their grandparents. Much as these people get angry with the youngsters, they fail to realize that all this is nothing but the fruit of their ow n hypocrisy,

Note I am not critiscizing the youth but the tantrums of their elders.

Any youngsters here please beware of the old generations especially the wannabe orthodox. They may be good people but have lived two lives.
You are the youth, you can be what you think is right. Dont be surprised even if parents scold you for reading bhagwat Gita, rebel and read.
If you want to pursue a career oriented life pursue your goals. Build friendship among all castes and clans. You are your master. You should be the leader. No friend , no matter his caste or race is a bad influence. It is you who needs to control urges and mingle with all warm people.
Nobody can rub a bad habit on you unless you want it to be rubbed against you. Be strong willed. Listen to all the elders but be your masters.
But my most import request to the youth- please dont think one thing and do another thing like many here.
 
Dear Friends,

I was not inclined to make any further contribution, by way of post, especially after my statement here that I assure you, on my integrity, that I will not be making any post except in this thread, as and when necessary to continue our mutual discussion.

I have been visiting the forum once in a while, however, as a silent reader. This thread came to my notice (only) today. After reading Shri Subbudu's OP and the various further contributions from many able members, I thought I will be excused if I break my aforesaid promise and write a few lines on what I feel Tabras and hypocrisy. For those who felt much relieved at my exit and even openly wrote about it, I say that my posts may be only very few rare like the Blue Moon.

Tabras just like most human beings have varying degrees of hypocrisy, and it is impossible to live without this skill, IMO. But here, in this forum, I feel we are mostly concerned with the brahmanic hypocrisy, i.e., the double standards shown by many tabras in preaching one type of Brahmanic way of life in the posts made here and the actual implementation of these ways in their real life. To me it seems that this hypocrisy is due to the fact that almost all tabras today have lost all validity and legitimacy to call themselves as Brahmanas but since the caste tag attaches to them forcefully, especially when it gives undesirable results such as in reservation of seats and jobs, there is a sort of intense conflict in the minds of the tabras; much as they may prefer changing their caste label to some SC, ST or OBC caste, since that is not legally possible, there is a natural tendency to adopt whatever is suitable for their material well-being at the realistic day-to-day (lower reality as denoted in the thread on "Flaws of Advaitha") life, but emotionally make up for this by preaching Brahmanic virtues. It will be observed that much has been discussed only about "poonal", sandhyavandanam and Gayatree in this forum and, to the uninitiated, it will give a picture as though these three items will make one become a 100% Brahmana. In reality however we have ceased to be Brahmanas for at least 6 or 7 generations. (My maternal grandmother once told me that her father-in-law's father used to do Oupaasanam regularly but after him no one did that.) Still we are unable to shake off this now-disadvantageous caste tag. Hence the aforesaid double strategy (love-hate) which is tantamount to discarding Brahmanism at the individual level but showing off such devalued and unfollowed Brahmanism before everyone else, so that this increases the pressure on others to do the same "devalue in private-extol in public" towards Brahmanism with more and more vigour. Psychologically perhaps this "praise the garbaged Brahmanism" attitude gives vicarious satisfaction of having given this unwelcome Brahman tag, the treatment that it deserves. I am reminded of the usual introductory sentence of many members to the effect "I am proud to be a brahmin."

I am very well aware that there will be very strong reactions to this post because truth is not always palatable. While such responses may come, I do not propose to answer or defend my view/s.

Dear Sangom,

HI!!! You are back.You know I had feeling that you were around only in invisible mode.Anyway welcome back.You also are cute and funny.
 
Speaking about Hypocrites...Some here do not use their real names and we know nuts about them too even though some might write as if they are defenders of the universe..so isnt that being a hypocrite too?

So no big deal..all of us have faults.

I agree with you.Thats why I put my real name and pic also.So everyone can see who I am.

Regards

Brahin Brahmanisth
 
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Thank you for your kind words. I would think it very silly to respond to the post of Visalakshi Ramanan. The purpose of this thread is to highlight the hypocrisy of the TB Community.

Dear Mr. Subbudu1,

My name is Visalakshi Ramani.

Who is is better qualified to discuss about hypocrisy than people hiding

behind pseudonyms and weird avatars?

In many cases we do not even know whether the person is a he or she!

If Visalakshi thinks I cant make heartfelt statements just like she thinks she needs to make, it would be most undemocratic.

There is NOTHING undemocratic in my reply. I waited long enough before

posting my reply. The tamaashaa was THREE MUCH even to my patience

and endurance.

In other words YOU posted your message FIRST and I had not stopped it

or interfered with it in any way!

What is so special about our TB Community.

NOTHING at all! That is what I am trying to tell you guys!

We are part of the brahmin sect which considers that we have been born out of the head of brahman. Ths is a very very tall claim when we are all so little.

TALL CLAIMS since the birth from the head of Brahman has not done

anything GOOD to our own heads!



The bottomline is Visalakshi and her coterie cannot tolerate critiscism of the TB Community. That is the only reason to respond to my thread.

You yourself CAN NOT digest a general statement.

I have been watching this eternal drama of quitting and coming back

umpteen times in the last 9 months! You may be the 100th or so member

to do it!. By the way if it really the 100th it calls for a celebration too!

I would love to ask Visalakshi one question- why would you want to give me respect by even caring to respond to a a worthless thread from a worthless person?

I try not to enter any controversies but this was 'action replay' 100th

time. Even my patience HAS a limit!


Yes I want to be productive not just a chatterbox and I will declare that from the rooftop and I am not on my way to cemetry.

You are the one who used the word depart, departure etc in your opening

post. NOT ME!

The quote is a very popular one IN CASE you are not aware of it!

It is NOT coined by me to suit this grand occasion! OK?


I swear you have infused me with new found energy. I will live and live long , long enough to see the ripened fruits of the hypocritic old generation.

Good ! you can start your productive activities(whatever they are) with

renewed vigor! All the best from all of us!


. I have seen three generations of orthodoxy. They lived like the heirs to a throne, pretending to be glorious.

Our posts will vouch for WHO is pretending and who IS NOT!

Today where are their descendants? The descendants have made their own life and are now leading successfull lives. But yes without all those pretensions and not in the way their fathers and grandfathers would like.
 



போகும்போது மட்டும் ஏன் இத்தனை கலாட்டா?
Pack off and take off as quietly as you had come in!

What is the similarity between a lavatory and a cemetery?
When you HAVE to go...you have TO GO!

Resp.VR...

The above quoted portion deserves paying in gold... it suits all situations.... kudos to you ........ Hence I am recording my "Like".....

One doubt..

For lavatory there can be a suffering and suffocating waiting... (remember a Kamal Hasan film ,As a bachelor, waiting in front of the common lavatory in the lodge, he loses his turn for some mightier ones.. sorry not able to recollect name of the film.. but now I vividly recollect the scene..that type of waiting is really killing.. that is why..Thenali Raman told his King that the best comfort is the lighter situation after visiting lavatory...). And in the case of lavatory, a comeback is possible..but in cemetry...except for some diagnostic mistake...

God Forbid.... Jokes apart..

Let everyone live his/her life to the fullest with all comforts...

Let everyone be magnanimous to accommodate each other..

Greetings..
 
உயர்வும் தாழ்வும் நம் குடிப்
பிறப்பால் வருவன அல்ல!

உயர்வுக்கும், தாழ்வுக்கும் நம்
கருமமே கட்டளைக் கல்!
 
Resp.VR...

The above quoted portion deserves paying in gold... it suits all situations.... kudos to you ........ Hence I am recording my "Like".....

One doubt..

For lavatory there can be a suffering and suffocating waiting... (remember a Kamal Hasan film ,As a bachelor, waiting in front of the common lavatory in the lodge, he loses his turn for some mightier ones.. sorry not able to recollect name of the film.. but now I vividly recollect the scene..that type of waiting is really killing.. that is why..Thenali Raman told his King that the best comfort is the lighter situation after visiting lavatory...). And in the case of lavatory, a comeback is possible..but in cemetry...except for some diagnostic mistake...

God Forbid.... Jokes apart..

Let everyone live his/her life to the fullest with all comforts...

Let everyone be magnanimous to accommodate each other..

Greetings..

Dear Sir,

The comparison ends with "when we have to go, we have to go!"

Nothing is mentioned about coming back! :)

The movie you refer to is called Pesum padam in Tamil and Pushpak in

Hindi.

Tenali's story about the truest happiness is right! we all feel it everyday!

A little boy asked his father '"How long is one minute?"

The father replied, "It depends on which side of the lavatory door you

are standing!"

My daily prayer to God is to Give good sense and poorna Aayusu to

EVERYONE!

I used the quote only to show the inevitability of the two situations

and NOTHING more than that. I cross my heart and swear!

with warm regards, :pray2:
visalakshi Ramani.


 
Sangom in this thread was the most knowledgable person here. Today our community in the forum have sent him away with abuses. Critiscims is one abuse is another.
Sarvajith made some of the choiciest of abuses against our gentleman Kunjuppu. I am sure Visalakshi herself would have disliked his manners.
Why did that not provoke her to make a statement. Why me , I have used very normal and neutral statements indicting myself as a person. This is the world of hypocrisy of our old generation.

1. I admit that I DO NOT read many threads!

2. I hardly have time to prepare my own posts.

3. I do not want to enter into avoidable controversies.

4. I DO NOT know that there is sarvajit in this forum.

5. I believe that as 'learned men' and 'gentlemen'

we have to COMMAND respect and NOT DEMAND it.

6. When we hand out criticism so generously,

we must be ready to taste our medicine now and then

at least in smaller doses, from younger people!
 
Sri VR,

I have the same feelings as that of yours, pertaining to some member's declaration of quiting this forum.

If we are not interested, got fed up or got hurt by some one's or collective responses, its better for us to quit temporarily for a short while or so, and come back here when we could feel to be in. At the most we can expresse openly and leave a note that "I am hurt, having been misunderstood/personally attacked" etc..as the case may be.

In face to face contacts, many a times we end up spelling out something odd or nasty, out of angre, though we don't mean what we said. But as a consequence, the receiving person gets effected and may change altogether towards us. So, we are generally adviced to control our tongue and avoid much exchange of communication when we are angry.

Similarly, its better not to declare openly about one's choice of quiting the forum, that one liked to be in, owing to one's compassion towards this forum and or to have a good pass time constructively.

Even if we end up doing this, its not so wrong to feel. After all we all are here to have good exchange of views and we need each other for the same.

But having done this, we should have the courage to bear some expressions of annoyance by other members (as you just did in your previous post) and either choose to reply it or ignore it.


 
Dear Nachinarkiniyan,
I am going to tell another story, which was told by my grandmother, when I was about 10 years old. Once, wives of Sri Krishna desired to cross Yamuna River and feed sage Durvasa as River Yamuna was overflowing and difficult to cross. They went to Krishna for a solution. Then, he advises them to tell Yamuna that Nitya Brahmachari asked you to give way. Accordingly the river flow subsided and the wives were able to cross the river and reach Sage Durvasa. They fed him and on return found the river overflowing. They came to the sage who asked to them to say Nitya Upavasi(permanent fasting man) asked to give way. The flow subsided and the wives crossed the river and reached their place. The moral of the story is that neither Sri Krishna nor the sage were doing anything for themselves. They lived for fulfilling the wishes of the devotees of Lord. So, the story of Agastya story also can be presumed to eradicate the evil demons who were killing common people. The meat eating by Brahmanas was on the ocasion of performing sacrifices for the kings that too as prasad. They were not eating meat with a view to satiate their desire. Therefore, it was correct that brahmanas were not eating meat regularly and so non violent. They were all satvik and always were well wishers of the community in which animals also form a part. So, the world has many truths which are stranger than fiction and they cannot be ignored as myths or paradoxial. raja48
 
Dear Mr. Subbudu,

As you had chosen to post this in this thread instead of the thread “In defence of……”
I missed it this long. Now let us look at it:

.
Let us be honest. If somebody believes in the vedas they should fully go into vaideekam. Neither the vaidikas are stopping them from learning vedas nor is it impossible

Yes let us be honest. Vedas is knowledge. Vaideekam, as I understand from the context here given by you, is making a living with the knowledge of Vedas as purohits. If I am wrong in my inference please correct me. Vedas can be learnt by any one if he is really interested and if he approaches the right teacher who is ready to teach him.

. They should also grow kudumi ……a white collar job is not needed for the believer. The people who live their life by priesthood survived 50 years back and they survive even now. An often quoted saying is -Dharmo Rakshathi Rakshitha. Who is preventing this modern weekend brahmins from hurling themselves fully into the world of tradition. If one can pass an engineering exam , I am sure he is capable of learning vedas with a basic degree of proficiency. That should be enough for his survival

Obviously there is some confusion. Kudumi has nothing to do with your ability to learn veda. It is a discipline which orthodoxy would insist on for various other reasons. If the teacher insists that you should have a kudumi to learn Vedas you will have to agree to that as it is you who want knowledge. It is like equipping yourself with a TOEFEL certificate when you apply for admission in a US University. You have the freedom to remove your kudumi after learning the Vedas. In any case, kudumi is not at all a big issue when we are discussing matters which are more cerebral!

]People who have chosen to have a kudumi or a turban are not bothered about the acceptance of it by others. If the society can tolerate many other such things it will have to tolerate this also.

We are all prisoners of circumstances. You know what are the earnings of a purohit today. When the supply increases and the demand remains static, economic forces will take over and you would expect the purohit to come to your house and offer free services. Moreover we are not living in isolation. We live in a society and time does not stop its march. What you say would have been fine if we still live in the bartering economy. You have a skill, I have another skill. We exchange the services. But now in the monetized economy your skill and my skill are not equal in monetary terms. So I have to earn. The more money I earn more comforts I get. This being the case where is the scope for “hurling oneself fully into the tradition”?

The retort of this wannabe brahmins is they are following tradition to the best of their ability, which is not true and is obviously glaring. That is fine. But it becomes very hypocritical when people parade their orthodoxy. A gentleman I know - the wannabe orthodox man, who recites rudram listening to a tape recorder, he has no problem eating in hotels and other places. That is fine that is this man's definition of orthodoxy. When his child married an NB, this man who visited his sambandi to fix the marriage( much to his disinclination) , he refused to have even coffee or tea at the sambandi's house( trying to prove a point that he is a brahmanan). How much hurt the NB would have been. This is the wannabe orthodox in full action

Dear friend, every one follows tradition to the extent possible. Before I take up your point let me say this: chanting rudram after listening to it from a tape recorder is not bad. He did not have the time to learn rudram from a teacher and so he is making use of the modern gadget to learn it. Even Vedas do not prevent you from using modern implements if they are available.
If the “man” you refer to had refused to accept the invitation of his sambandhi he would still have been hurt. I can refer to any number of “men” in similar circumstance who have plainly told their “sambandhi” that they are deeply hurt by the action of their sons/daughters and hence would not have anything to do with their families. As you would prefer to call it, this is wannabe brahmins’ dilemma and their way of finding a solution. It varies from individual to individual. All said, you can not fault a wannabe Brahmin for his desire to live by the values he has picked up being a member of a Brahmin family. He may not be successful every time. But the desire per se is not a sin. So what is your objection?

There are hundreds of examples. The wannabe orthodox as I have seen wants the best of both worlds , modern lifestyle and easy tradition. What I mean by easy tradition, is tradition that does not call for a major sacrifice in their life style. Like the man who kept commenting about the vulgarity in tv songs, but yet continued to switch the channel and watch them. Either stop watching things, admit your mistake and talk about vulgarity. Or keep quiet. Or say that there is nothing wrong with such pictures on tv

What you have said is applicable to wannabe and not wannabe Brahmins also. This is a human weakness. Now in reply to your example, I can point out at least a hundred wannabe Brahmins that I know who strictly skip the vulgar channels in their tv. Shall we conduct a poll as to know who is the majority and the true state of affairs? I have nothing more to say about this.

The wannabe orthodox talks of high things like advaita, dvaita etc. Some of them speak ill of people of counter philosophy. Only a simple examination of their life style will reveal their true colors. There should not be a difference in what we believe and what we do.

What did you find from their life style? What are the true colors? I hope you are not talking about the philosophical debates in which people point out the flaws in the arguments of the counter party. If a wannabe Brahmin who is not a participant in such a debate speaks ill of another person there are remedies for that. But that will not include wholesale branding.


Raju says there cannot be a dialogue between the modern and the orthodox

Did I say that? I said only that the dialogue can not be continued if any of the two parties to the dialogue decides that there are no common denominators in their perceptions or if they conclude that it is a dead end. However, the orthodox would like to avoid the reformists if they know them to be reformists because they have learnt from their experience with other reformists that the agenda is a single point, take it or leave it, one.

If the orthodox is truly sincere, and a good man, it is easy to have a conversation with him. Two vadhiyars- One I will call the kova karar and the other I shall call santha swaroopan. The former vadhiyar we have seen too many, gets irritated by the little things in a puja. I remember a ceremony in which one such orthodox vadhiyar kept on smacking is forehead with the little apacharams going on. He wss irritated with panchagacham not being worn properly, by somebody not following his instructions etc. It is difficult for many to have dialogue with such people. But I can say with confidence that I know some pleasant tempered orthodox people………….

I am sure you would have abandoned the ‘kovakkarar’ and engaged the ‘santhaswaroopy’. Such issues are solved in the natural way.

If you are a straight person , you would follow tradition may be with a blend of modernity. But you will not make fun of modern values

This is the essence of all that I stand for. You have said it, finally.

I agree all of us are hypocrites , but we need to change, change for the better. The line has been crossed when we hold false notions of superiority to top it all. Let us not pretend to be advaitins, smarthan, purva mimasakans etc without immersing ourselves fully in it. Say boldly I am a modern person, I am not sure about my religion and philosophy or I am not convinced fully or say I am greedy for money and material values or say I am not convinced that god will protect me if I follow vedam. So I blend it with modernism. Then it is good. But all this tamasha of high philosophy and low living is no good.

The dictionary gives the meaning of the word hypocrisy as—falsely pretending to be virtuous: insincerity. I am not a hypocrite. But I am sure about what my religion says. I am convinced fully that it tells me the final truth. I sincerely believe that God will accept me if I remain a good human being as prescribed in the scriptures. I will tell this to any one. If you happen to know me personally you may find me to be an ordinary human being with many frailties and imperfections. I am also aware of them. But that does not prevent me nor does it deny me the liberty to have all those convictions that I have listed above. When I tell some one that the Vedas tell the truth I know I am not insincere. If some one asks me whether I follow the scriptures I will tell him “yes. To the extent possible for me”. There is no false pretension here. I will certainly tell my children to be good hindus and good Brahmins. If they ask me whether I had been I will tell them that I had tried to be one. The judgment is for others to make. This is basically what is all about wannabe Brahmins. I am one of them. The majority of wannabe Brahmins are like me. They are neither orthodox, knowing the scriptures fairly well nor the mavericks who are in a tearing hurry to abandon every thing with nihilistic fervor. They are Brahmins who sincerely believe that old wisdom is not all that bad. Nor do they think that change is bad. They would like to accept only that which is not there in their old wisdom already. And their plea to reform enthusiasts like you is to please leave them alone
 
Dear Mr. Iniyan,

1. Smoking is bad and not suitable for Brahmins. But then how about Snuff and tobacco chewing the community had permitted for decades? It permits even taking of opium.

The community has not permitted any of these. It is just that the community tolerates these as it can not do any thing about these habits involving individual freedom of choice. If you accept that community is represented by the learned elders, then no such person has accepted such indulgence. If there are certain heretics who go for mind-expanding experiments using the derivatives of opium in their search for truth, it is a deviation and it is not accepted by the Brahmin community. There is no hypocrisy whatsoever here.

2. We keep on insisting that Brahmins never took meat though history reveals other way round. We rewrite the story of Agasthya and Vathapi to reflect our new found thinking. Twist history. Then swear that the Vedic Yagnas never involved animal sacrifices. Anyone who says otherwise is blamed for reading western translations. Blame the Englishmen and westerners for all our ills.

Avoiding meat is a value picked up by the community in their long journey of evolution. Its advantages were perhaps realized and hence this value was added to the value system of the community may be a few thousand years back. Unlike the western religions we believe that what we eat influences our attitudes and actions. This was a principle which was realized by our ancestors from experience. Since Brahmins were after knowledge of the highest order they thought this dietary discipline was essential for their pursuit of knowledge. I do not know who rewrote the puranas or itihasas as you claim. There is no attempt to hide any thing. We are not ashamed of our past. We say just that though meat eating was prevalent in earlier era, we should avoid it completely as it is part of our value system now. Yagnas involved animal sacrifices in the past as well as they do now. As you said it is a sacrifice and just that. About western translations of our scriptures—it is a topic in itself and a discussion here will make this more lengthy.

3. Deny that women were treated very badly by our society. They were treated as property. Insist that child marriages were a blessing.

This is true. But I do not understand what this has to do with hypocrisy that Brahmins are accused of here. If hypocrisy is ‘pretending to be virtuous and insincerity’ did we ever claim we were virtuous in treating our womenfolk the way we treated them? I would like to know more from you.

4. A child born of a marriage between a Brahmin and a Sudra can never be a Brahmin. Then pray how is Veda Vyasa the son of Sathyavathi a fisher woman a Brahmin? In fact the entire kuru race were the descendants of Sathyavathi a shudra.

If you are going to believe the itihasas and other scriptures you should believe them in toto. Please read the scriptures again to get the answer to your question. It is not fair to take just an episode in isolation and raise a question as you have done. Is Veda Vyasa a Brahmin at all? If so how is it possible when he is the son of Satyavathi? These are questions which have been answered adequately in the texts from which you have extracted this info.

The younger generation is appalled at this hypocracy.

There are many self-appointed representatives(SAR) of younger generation. All of them say the same thing-that the younger generation is appalled. When the younger generation decides to know what the truth is; it does not stop with asking these SARs. Youngsters go deep into the subject and look for answers. They look for validations independently. And when they find the truth they do not forgive or forget the SARs for misleading them.
 
My reply to what Mr. Nara has said in this thread:

K, I have to take severe exception to this. The two terms, "weekend brahmins" and "wannabe orthodox" are mine, I was the one who first introduced them to the delight of some, I optimistically presume, and to the chagrin of many as my ego would have it.
I declare unequivocally that I have no claim whatsoever to the ownership of these terms. They indeed belong to Mr. Nara who coined them first.

Hypocrisy comes in so many flavors, doesn't it? A confirmed atheist, what would I do when my father passes away as all of us one day will? I will do what my mother and other family members I respect expect of me, and that would be hypocrisy, I know. But I think the charge of hypocrisy against me is a small price to pay for the sake of my mother's and other family member's mental satisfaction.
Some justification this! Same justification if it comes from any other wannabe Brahmin should also be acceptable.

I was an intimate part of the so called "orthodox" and "traditional" brahmins, the ones who learn the Vedas and are steadfast in their misguided faith. I have first-hand experience with the kind of hypocrisy they engage in. But, I am sympathetic to their hypocrisy, because their hypocrisy is motivated by survival, making a living. Contrast this with the hypocrisy of the wannabe orthodoxy, the weekend brahmin (TM) , these are the ones who feel comfortable nursing Scotch on the rocks in a 5* hotel one evening, and adorn the marks of orthodoxy the next day. This is the kind of hypocrisy that Subbudu sir is talking about, I think, one that applies double standard.
There is no difference between the two. The alcohol consuming Brahmin may regret his easy ways and may be trying to find solace, support and comfort in the realm of orthodoxy. Why should we condemn him for ever?
When I see my own relatives, middle-class professionals, having a comfortable life-style, talking about Brahmin "pedigree" as if humans are some sort of dog genetically manipulated by an unseen higher-being keeping track of karma, enough to make a confirmed atheist, cry out oh lord!
The unabashed celebration of one’s success, as long as it remains harmless to others, is an indulgence. Just as the cry of the confirmed atheist, the bragging is also just empty the moment it is uttered and served a purpose. It would have served its purpose to the owners while for others it would be just gibberish.

IMO, they are harming the younger generation, pouring their poison of Brahmin exclusivity/superiority into the unsuspecting younguns. This, in all probability, is not intentional, but they ought to know better.

Rather than having no belief whatsoever in one’s heritage or cultureor value system, a little bit of pride and belief is worth having. Youngsters will be better off if they have knowledge of their roots as that will save them from drifting at a time when they will have age, achievements, money(a lot of it) and diverse avenues for enjoyment.
 
Visa, re your post #31:

You yourself are a prolific poster in this forum. Also a large fan following, as far I know.

If you decide to stop posting, I, along with many other folks here, would definitely wonder about the reasons for living.

And as in any live community, the absence of a member, hurts.

Admittedly, barring a brief introduction, we do not make a fuss when we join the forum.

But while we are here, we post, make friends, and build bonds. Many such bonds become strong.

For example, raji ram & yours truly banter a lot, and on many occasions, I comment on her post. In one instance yesterday, I felt I might have stepped outside the limit of polity, and was gratified & reassured that raji did not take any offense.

எக்கேடு கட்டு போகட்டும் attitude for some members quitting , may be seen here. good riddance for others. but many others, including yourself, i would definitely pen a note, if i notice that you are not your usual busy self here. worse still, if suddenly everything ceases. that too, without a pre announcement from you.

you might want to retort, 'why should anyone care if visa stays or leaves?'. but i would care visa. that 's what belonging to this group is all about.

hope this explains why some of us feel enriched by subbudu’s presence here.and would miss him deeply if he quits. :)
 
Dear Mr. Subbudu,

As you had chosen to post this in this thread instead of the thread “In defence of……”
I missed it this long. Now let us look at it:



Yes let us be honest. Vedas is knowledge. Vaideekam, as I understand from the context here given by you, is making a living with the knowledge of Vedas as purohits. If I am wrong in my inference please correct me. Vedas can be learnt by any one if he is really interested and if he approaches the right teacher who is ready to teach him.



Obviously there is some confusion. Kudumi has nothing to do with your ability to learn veda. It is a discipline which orthodoxy would insist on for various other reasons. If the teacher insists that you should have a kudumi to learn Vedas you will have to agree to that as it is you who want knowledge. It is like equipping yourself with a TOEFEL certificate when you apply for admission in a US University. You have the freedom to remove your kudumi after learning the Vedas. In any case, kudumi is not at all a big issue when we are discussing matters which are more cerebral!

]People who have chosen to have a kudumi or a turban are not bothered about the acceptance of it by others. If the society can tolerate many other such things it will have to tolerate this also.

We are all prisoners of circumstances. You know what are the earnings of a purohit today. When the supply increases and the demand remains static, economic forces will take over and you would expect the purohit to come to your house and offer free services. Moreover we are not living in isolation. We live in a society and time does not stop its march. What you say would have been fine if we still live in the bartering economy. You have a skill, I have another skill. We exchange the services. But now in the monetized economy your skill and my skill are not equal in monetary terms. So I have to earn. The more money I earn more comforts I get. This being the case where is the scope for “hurling oneself fully into the tradition”?



Dear friend, every one follows tradition to the extent possible. Before I take up your point let me say this: chanting rudram after listening to it from a tape recorder is not bad. He did not have the time to learn rudram from a teacher and so he is making use of the modern gadget to learn it. Even Vedas do not prevent you from using modern implements if they are available.
If the “man” you refer to had refused to accept the invitation of his sambandhi he would still have been hurt. I can refer to any number of “men” in similar circumstance who have plainly told their “sambandhi” that they are deeply hurt by the action of their sons/daughters and hence would not have anything to do with their families. As you would prefer to call it, this is wannabe brahmins’ dilemma and their way of finding a solution. It varies from individual to individual. All said, you can not fault a wannabe Brahmin for his desire to live by the values he has picked up being a member of a Brahmin family. He may not be successful every time. But the desire per se is not a sin. So what is your objection?



What you have said is applicable to wannabe and not wannabe Brahmins also. This is a human weakness. Now in reply to your example, I can point out at least a hundred wannabe Brahmins that I know who strictly skip the vulgar channels in their tv. Shall we conduct a poll as to know who is the majority and the true state of affairs? I have nothing more to say about this.



What did you find from their life style? What are the true colors? I hope you are not talking about the philosophical debates in which people point out the flaws in the arguments of the counter party. If a wannabe Brahmin who is not a participant in such a debate speaks ill of another person there are remedies for that. But that will not include wholesale branding.




Did I say that? I said only that the dialogue can not be continued if any of the two parties to the dialogue decides that there are no common denominators in their perceptions or if they conclude that it is a dead end. However, the orthodox would like to avoid the reformists if they know them to be reformists because they have learnt from their experience with other reformists that the agenda is a single point, take it or leave it, one.



I am sure you would have abandoned the ‘kovakkarar’ and engaged the ‘santhaswaroopy’. Such issues are solved in the natural way.



This is the essence of all that I stand for. You have said it, finally.



The dictionary gives the meaning of the word hypocrisy as—falsely pretending to be virtuous: insincerity. I am not a hypocrite. But I am sure about what my religion says. I am convinced fully that it tells me the final truth. I sincerely believe that God will accept me if I remain a good human being as prescribed in the scriptures. I will tell this to any one. If you happen to know me personally you may find me to be an ordinary human being with many frailties and imperfections. I am also aware of them. But that does not prevent me nor does it deny me the liberty to have all those convictions that I have listed above. When I tell some one that the Vedas tell the truth I know I am not insincere. If some one asks me whether I follow the scriptures I will tell him “yes. To the extent possible for me”. There is no false pretension here. I will certainly tell my children to be good hindus and good Brahmins. If they ask me whether I had been I will tell them that I had tried to be one. The judgment is for others to make. This is basically what is all about wannabe Brahmins. I am one of them. The majority of wannabe Brahmins are like me. They are neither orthodox, knowing the scriptures fairly well nor the mavericks who are in a tearing hurry to abandon every thing with nihilistic fervor. They are Brahmins who sincerely believe that old wisdom is not all that bad. Nor do they think that change is bad. They would like to accept only that which is not there in their old wisdom already. And their plea to reform enthusiasts like you is to please leave them alone

There is a major difference between you and a sincerely orthodox that is why you remain a wannabe.

The fundamental difference between the forever wannabe and the sincere is that the wannabe twists and turns the scriptures, the rules and the interpretation of varna, as per convenience.
My point is not whether a kudumi should be worn or not. The wannabe defends the kudumi but is ashamed too!

He defends the scripture but ashamed to wear the kudumi which the scripture says.

Agreed there are some legal bindings(government laws) even on the orthodox.
But in that case he is doing the best.He may even change rules of traditon in accordance with times. But he has a motive to his life when he says he is a brahmanan. One can question that motive but he is not an outright hypcrite. He believes vaidekam will ensure god saves him and he has the stories from puranas to comfort him

In the case of the wannabe , the desire to follow tradition is because it is convenient. When it is not convenient he throws it away but yet he will recommed tradition all the way . Like for example if one needs to learn a complete section of vedas, then the wannabe must spend sufficient time on that.
This will mean sacrifice a hundred things- we know what. The claim to be a brahmin is an often repeated claim.
This is based on varna but varna's fundamental basis is occupation

Not being a full time vaideeka itself implies that one cannot be a brahmin even with a liberal interpretation.

Finally speaking of occupational hazards they are there. Those who have the passion risk it.
Dont we feel proud of our Armed forces? There are many families that dont consider it a risk and accept it.
Similarly there are vaideekans one of whom told me, no matter how much I face poverty, I wont give it up.

You are on the other hand worried about poverty but conveniently forget the concept of varna.

Yet you want your birth rights and title. It is no different from the desire of an army major's son to hold on to his father's title.

You are practical and as many would assume you are right. But then dont talk of brahmanan , vaideekam and so on. You want to learn vedas learn them , but dont talk about shastras, sampradaya etc. You know you use them for your convenience.
 
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Visa, re your post #31:

You yourself are a prolific poster in this forum. Also a large fan following, as far I know.

thank you -if you really feel so!

If you decide to stop posting, I, along with many other folks here, would definitely wonder about the reasons for living.

Now you are KIDDING! :)

And as in any live community, the absence of a member, hurts.

I never told sri Subbudu to quit the forum!
He wants to quit on his own.
I believe that quitters never win
and winner should never quit!

Admittedly, barring a brief introduction, we do not make a fuss when we join the forum.

But while we are here, we post, make friends, and build bonds. Many such bonds become strong.

Can you say the thing about you and me or you and someone else?

For example, raji ram & yours truly banter a lot, and on many occasions, I comment on her post. In one instance yesterday, I felt I might have stepped outside the limit of polity, and was gratified & reassured that raji did not take any offense.

எக்கேடு கட்டு போகட்டும் attitude for some members quitting , may be seen here. good riddance for others. but many others, including yourself, i would definitely pen a note, if i notice that you are not your usual busy self here. worse still, if suddenly everything ceases. that too, without a pre announcement from you.

I hate to keep people guessing. That is why I always put a note whenever something out of the ordinary happens! I also call back people who have gone into invisible mode to come back into circulation!

you might want to retort, 'why should anyone care if visa stays or leaves?'. but i would care visa. that 's what belonging to this group is all about.

Rest assured i will do no such thing! :)

hope this explains why some of us feel enriched by subbudu’s presence here.and would miss him deeply if he quits. :)

He can stay and and contribute much more.
He does not anybody's permission to do so.
Definitely not my permission anyway!
:thumb:
 
Folks, I would like to share with you a true incident of a wannabe in action.

The case pertains to this wannabe orthodox family. Educated and well off. Members are not into vaideekam.
Yet they believe in vedam. Like a typical wannabe, pujas are there in that house. Basic rules , madi etc etc. But no Vaiddekam in that house.

They had what they considered a good fortune, the opportunity to have an allaince with a sastrigal family.
The girl came from that family. This wannabe family were very happy and kept discussing among themselves about a what a great fortune it was to have such a sambandham

During marriage, the true colors came out. The wannabe did not understand that this simple family of the girl were not used to show.
The marriage was conducted in a more traditional manner. . Not much seeru or done as per expectations of boy's family. Lot of arguments on things to be done for marriage.
The girl's family felt insulted and the wannabe conducted itself in a haughty manner. Later understanding between the married couple and that led to a smooth life, things improved. The girl and the boy had good life.
The girl's family were not the type to take things lying down and things to go unanswered. They replied rather straightly to whatever they felt unreasonable.
This caused more friction and the boy's family did not like it.

The whole irony was the wannabe was really unable to understand how simple minded people not with so many pretensions in life live.
Their worry was more on the image they would have with their own relations and missed the bigger picture. Spoilt relations with sambandhis.

Let me reiterate the lesson to be learnt here. It is not seeru etc does not exist in sastrigal society.
But the wannabe wanted a place among the orthodox. They got a genuinely good set of people but with a mindset the wannabe could never really appreciate when the alliance was in their hands.
The wannabe never understood the unsophisticated mannerism and talk. This is my entire point of the wannabe.
The wannabe in their quest for comforts cannot really adjust or connect with a traditional life. Yet their craving remains there. It is their inability to adjust to a traditional environment that really hold thems back from being fully into orthodoxy.

Once you have walked along the beach and immersed your legs into the sea water be prepared to live by its mercy.
 
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