India’s Rape Crisis Undermines the Country

[sangom]

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Mr. Sangom sir, it is abundantly clear that you are biased against people in west. Is there any scientific reason for that conclusion? You are a logical person, give me a logical answer.


None of us justified rape any where in the world. Why are you jumping to the defense of Indian Rapist. What has the women victims done to you? And on the other hand what has the rapist done for you that you are ready to defend them.

Shri Prasad,

I now realize that you are one of the persons who will not understand what is written, again and again, and will also not understand that you don't understand. So, this is my very last attempt to convey to you that —

• I have absolutely nothing for or against anybody, including those who have migrated.
• I believe that at least in India, crimes like rape cannot be viewed exactly as is sought to be painted here by yourself, Shri Kunjuppu, Shri Nara etc. I say "sought to be painted" because, please see the report here in NYT; it seems even in US a good percentage of the population blames the rape victim.
• Whatever may be the higher ethical, social or emancipatory stand point on rape be, it will do much good to women of India as also tourists/foreign visitors, etc., to mind cautionary suggestions like those about modest dressing.
• As citizens of India, I and people like myself will continue to advise girls/women to be modestly dressed as per the norms of the immediate society around their place/s of living/stay, so that their chances of being sexually assaulted is reduced, at least to some extent.

I do not propose to change my views on this issue, nor to attempt impressing you, hereafter, of the validity of my views for the Indian/Chinese etc., scenarios.

 

[C RAVI]

Kum. Amala,

You have only read, and that too many times, that rape is NOT about sex at all, but about violence, control and power. Sex is just the tool only.

But if you happened to read the anti-brahmin outpourings of EVR, DK, MK etc., equal number of times, will your mind and/or intellect be equally ready to accept all those anti-brahmin views as gospel truth, in equal measure? Most possibly, no, because you are a brahmin and so your mind and intellect will refuse to accept those as the ultimate truth.

In the case of rape, however, you are a female and want complete, unfettered freedom to do all that you want; you desire, in a very general way, that females should be able to walk anywhere on earth in whatever dress they like to be in, exposing or emphasizing, enlarging, exhibiting whatever part/s of their anatomy they would like, and that, even then, no woman should come to any grief, least of all "rape".

Unfortunately, however, this world is not such an ideal place and God also does not seem to be keen on cleaning up this place. There are two major sexes with the in-between gray area sexes raising their head late in human history. A heterosexual woman in her prime age has to take adequate precautions in almost all parts of the world in order to safeguard her person and to prevent herself from being sexually assaulted. This applies equally to the US lady in H.P> who was unintelligent enough to believe that three truck drivers at 1.00 A.M. in the night will be all like marayada purush Ramas and to have got herself a lift.

In India, people will immediately ask why was she there alone, in that part of night, in a highway? What was her business if it was not something dubious, unholy?

If she was familiar with such "night walking", alone in the road, at dead of night, why did she not know that long distance truck drivers generally are under partial influence of alcohol (arrack, mostly, or drugs like Bhaang too, in rare cases) and that their behaviour would be quite unpredictable? and so on...

Perhaps you too, like our friends from the US, may insist that come what may, the rape victim should not be blamed. We do not blame the victim, but the extent of public sympathy/empathy to the rape victim will, at least in India, depend a lot on such antecedents as illustrated above. I, for one, believe that this is more salutary for India under indian conditions. I am not saying that US or the west cannot have a different stand in this matter. But despite our clearly making this point, you and our foreign settled friends seem to have got it in your heads to "convert" us, at any cost.

We, in India, are not yet as adept as the people in the west to deal with rape crimes as illustrated in this post.

Well said Sir!!

 

[Nara]

.. please see the report here in NYT; it seems even in US a good percentage of the population blames the rape victim.

Dear Shri Sangom, as I have already noted, victim-blaming is not absent in the U.S. But their view is not accepted by the vast majority of the nation. This Steubenville case involved much beloved football players which led to some people in the small town standing up for the perpetrators. But the rest of the nation, including many in the small town itself condemned not only the actions of the football players, but the misguided support some in the town gave to them. In the end, the perpetrators were convicted and they ended up offering an apology to the victim. The apology was certainly too little too late, but at least it is clear those who blamed the inebriated girl were severely chastised.

I do not propose to change my views on this issue, nor to attempt impressing you, hereafter, of the validity of my views for the Indian/Chinese etc., scenarios.

You know, somehow I have some sympathy for Ravi for holding these views, but not for you. You don't have a stake in this issue. You are 70+ and do not have a daughter to bring up. But Ravi is an young man who may have to raise a daughter in the future. If by some misfortune something brutal happens I hope nobody will blame her, if anyone did, I know it will break Ravi's heart.

best ...

 

[sangom]

. . . You know, somehow I have some sympathy for Ravi for holding these views, but not for you. You don't have a stake in this issue. You are 70+ and do not have a daughter to bring up. But Ravi is an young man who may have to raise a daughter in the future. If by some misfortune something brutal happens I hope nobody will blame her, if anyone did, I know it will break Ravi's heart.

best ...

Dear Shri Nara,

For some time since this topic became somewhat controversial, one point which struck me was why at all our expatriate members are soooo particular that the girl/woman who gets raped should not be blamed at all, come what may. One possibility which I saw, has now come out (rather unwittingly and indirectly, though,) from the above cited statement.

It will seem that the womenfolk including those of expatriate Indians must be wearing very skimpy and revealing clothes (described by one of our members here as "Dressed to kill" - but kill whom (?) and for what purpose was not explained; may be every one understands!— intentionally wearing clothes that attract sexual attention and admiration (Definition of dressed to kill from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)). These people, especially the daughters, are also as much susceptible for sexual assault in the US/other foreign countries, as women are in India, but the parents over there have absolutely no voice in such matters. Hence, a kind of "angst" is present in the minds of many, if not most. of the PIOs about, "If by some misfortune something brutal happens I hope nobody will blame her, if anyone did, I know it will break the parents' heart."


In India, even now, the parents, and more particularly, the mother has even now some control in such matters, at least in the lower income group households, plus, the society - consisting of ogling, whistling, commenting boys and molesting males at every possible opportunity, do help to keep the wild fancies of young girls under check to some extent.

I think that irrespective of whether people blame one's daughter and her antecedents for getting raped, a normal parent will be distraught to the maximum and shaken completely, if something like this happens to one's daughter, even though, there may not be any life-long blot and ostracization for the victim, as is the case in Inda. Still, I can empathise with all such parents and their helpless conditions there.

 

[prasad1]

I have come to the same conclusion as Mr. K.
So I will stop.
This post was more about India as a tourist destination. I guess no tourist comes to some corner of India, and tourism does not impact personal pocketbooks.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Sangom
You know, somehow I have some sympathy for Ravi for holding these views, but not for you. You don't have a stake in this issue. You are 70+ and do not have a daughter to bring up. But Ravi is an young man who may have to raise a daughter in the future. If by some misfortune something brutal happens I hope nobody will blame her, if anyone did, I know it will break Ravi's heart.


best ...

Shri Nara,

Your sympathy with concern towards me and that of couple of other member's statement clearly reveals that, yourself and some of other members are of the opinion that, myself and Shri Samgom are Glorifying the Rapist. You people are making attempts to falsely highlight that, the theme of our posts is to Appreciate Rapists for their Bang UP Job with killer instinct to achieve what the want.

These attempts are made to defuse the sensibility and significance in what myself and Shri Sangom are saying.

The irony is, the people who are opposing Shri Sangom's views and that of mine and making a false conclusion that we are supporting the rapist, are those who are elderly person and they are going out of their way to twist the case just to win an argument. And certainly, this is not appreciable.


For your kind information Sir, I have a Sister and a Teen aged Niece. And as you said, probably in future I will have a Wife and subsequently may have a daughter. To all these ladies my advice would be the same. That is, wear modestly and avoid any chances of sexual molestation. Be sensitive and responsible.

They may listen to me or may not. They may chose to wear exposing skimpy dress or may not. If they wear Skimpy dress and happen to be molested some way due to their dressing, I would blame them no matter others in my society blame them or not. That does not mean that I or any one for that matter will hate them once for all and "Thala Muzhugufying" them. And that does not mean that I would appreciate the rapist and fight with the law to help him go free.

My heart will start paining right from the time when some of the people in my society keep instigating and encouraging females of my family to wear skimpy dress in the name of women liberty. And will break when one of the females of my family happen to be a victim of brutality. And this pain has nothing to do with my blame on them in some way with the intention to re-iterate what the sensibility in my caution to them was, so that after such a hit, at least in future they will care to be sensible and responsible.


Much to my awareness many parents have complaints about their daughters who adamantly chose to wear exposing costumes indiscriminately and are daring to be any where at any time, all in the name of women freedom. In some families either mother is scared and upset over her daughter and her husband who is supporting her daughter or a father is scared because of his daughter and his supporting wife.

In my case, as you said, I would continue to hold my views and if unfortunately my future wife happen to be encouraging daughter to wear such skimpy exposing dress, I can do nothing. At the end of the day, "as a family", "all of our heart" will break when such a brutality occurs due to such dressing, no matter others blame them for their skimpy dressing or not.


Most probably, the views of yours and that of Mr.Prasad's would be the same as I have expressed above, if you people would have been living in India. But, am dead sure that you people will not accept this probability with all honesty as that would probably give a sense of defeat to you people in the stand that you people have taken in this topic.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Nara,

For some time since this topic became somewhat controversial, one point which struck me was why at all our expatriate members are soooo particular that the girl/woman who gets raped should not be blamed at all, come what may. One possibility which I saw, has now come out (rather unwittingly and indirectly, though,) from the above cited statement.

It will seem that the womenfolk including those of expatriate Indians must be wearing very skimpy and revealing clothes (described by one of our members here as "Dressed to kill" - but kill whom (?) and for what purpose was not explained; may be every one understands!— intentionally wearing clothes that attract sexual attention and admiration (Definition of dressed to kill from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)). These people, especially the daughters, are also as much susceptible for sexual assault in the US/other foreign countries, as women are in India, but the parents over there have absolutely no voice in such matters. Hence, a kind of "angst" is present in the minds of many, if not most. of the PIOs about, "If by some misfortune something brutal happens I hope nobody will blame her, if anyone did, I know it will break the parents' heart."


In India, even now, the parents, and more particularly, the mother has even now some control in such matters, at least in the lower income group households, plus, the society - consisting of ogling, whistling, commenting boys and molesting males at every possible opportunity, do help to keep the wild fancies of young girls under check to some extent.

I think that irrespective of whether people blame one's daughter and her antecedents for getting raped, a normal parent will be distraught to the maximum and shaken completely, if something like this happens to one's daughter, even though, there may not be any life-long blot and ostracization for the victim, as is the case in Inda. Still, I can empathise with all such parents and their helpless conditions there.

You hit the nail on the head Sir. Spot on!

 

[Nara]

... But, am dead sure that you people will not accept this probability with all honesty as that would probably give a sense of defeat to you people in the stand that you people have taken in this topic.

This is not about victory or defeat. What my view would have been had I not emigrated is just speculation, whether I do it, or you do it.

We both being male can only try to imagine what it is like for a young woman to navigate the social mores that is quick to condemn her. There are many ways to do this, not only skimpy clothes – what defines skimpy clothes anyway, it is so relative, some people may think even jeans is provocative, asking to be molested or raped, she had it coming by wearning jeans. There are many other ways to blame the victim, it could be place, time, friends, wanting to go out and work, etc. it is not just the clothes.

It is relatively easy to feel empathy when it is personal, but to feel empathy in the abstract is what makes us humans. There is a saying, பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு (I am just repeating the proverb, not meant in an offensive way). My wish is it does not come to that.

Okay, I am done ....

 

[sangom]

. . . It is relatively easy to feel empathy when it is personal, but to feel empathy in the abstract is what makes us humans. There is a saying, பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு (I am just repeating the proverb, not meant in an offensive way). My wish is it does not come to that.

Okay, I am done ....

Dear Shri Nara,

"empathy" emanates from the word ἐμπάθεια (empatheia), "physical affection, passion, partiality" (Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). So, a certain amount of partiality is not ruled out when we talk about empathy. By the same token "empathy in the abstract" can come only when we are considering some nameless abstract cases, for example, say, the children dying of hunger & malnutrition in sub-saharan Africa; here, we are not talking about any concrete personality/personalities, nor are we going into their individual details.

If some female in our close circle gets raped, we will know the person, her habits and attitudes, her dressing norms and so on, and so along with some amount of empathy, there will also be the definite feeling "she had it coming!". This is the common reaction, at least in India. And, even in the Steubenville Rape Case, I think a good cross-section of the local society reacted in the very same way. (Incidentally, I don't find that these people were "chastised" in any manner. As for the ludicrous judgment of the rapists offering an apology to the girl who was raped, it beats the imagination!!
BTW, did the judge go lenient to this extent because the rapists were "much beloved football players" or has the judgment proper given any other reasons? The rest of the nation cannot chastise a few thousand people simply through media blaring something, I believe.)

Hence, unconditional and absolute empathy is unachievable in each and every case, according to me.

 

[kkumar29]

Mr. Sangom,

I was not going to post in this thread. I just want to point out that when I narrated an instance when clothes was not the cause of the rape. It just happened. Your first reaction was to mock and say if it happened in a public place what the others were doing. It did not show any sympathy nor did it convey any empathy. As you said you had already made up your mind and were not going to change your view. What is surprising is that a normally logical person taking such a stand, and refusing to admit that in every case of rape clothing is not the main cause.

What is even more shocking is your failure to realize by keeping on harping on a women's dress as the cause of rape, you are actually blaming the victim. My post is not to change your view or convince you, but to let you know that every post you had made making these statements, to me it sounds like you are defending the rapists and blaming the woman in the case I had narrated because that woman was not dressed skimpily. Just because you and Mr Ravi keep repeating this statement and bringing all kinds of weird logic into it does not change that fact. It is that simple and if you can't understand that so be it. This has nothing do with morals, the way girls are brought up or the western culture.

Have a good day!
K. Kumar

 

[Nara]

"empathy" emanates from the word ἐμπάθεια (empatheia),

If we can recreate circles of arguments in line with Dante's circles of hell, I think we have now reached the circle of the absurd. I want to move on, thanks for the discussion ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

There is a saying, பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு (I am just repeating the proverb, not meant in an offensive way). My wish is it does not come to that.

Quoting this "proverb" is offensive not necessarily because of the word used but because the member does not seem to separate the argument from the caste of the arguing member.
If this is allowed, tomorrow somebody will quote some other incident and then say "சாதிக்கேற்ற புத்தி" which is a கிராமத்து வழக்கு still in vogue in TN. Would that be also allowed?
I wonder when this forum would stop allowing such casteist attacks!

 

[C RAVI]

Quoting this "proverb" is offensive not necessarily because of the word used but because the member does not seem to separate the argument from the caste of the arguing member.
If this is allowed, tomorrow somebody will quote some other incident and then say "சாதிக்கேற்ற புத்தி" which is a கிராமத்து வழக்கு still in vogue in TN. Would that be also allowed?
I wonder when this forum would stop allowing such casteist attacks!

These are the quickest way to put some one down. They call it a Logic!! Rational thoughts!! But such Logic and Rational thoughts are reserved only for privileged folks!!

I wonder what is the reason behind such privileges?

 

[C RAVI]

This is not about victory or defeat. What my view would have been had I not emigrated is just speculation, whether I do it, or you do it.

We both being male can only try to imagine what it is like for a young woman to navigate the social mores that is quick to condemn her. There are many ways to do this, not only skimpy clothes – what defines skimpy clothes anyway, it is so relative, some people may think even jeans is provocative, asking to be molested or raped, she had it coming by wearning jeans. There are many other ways to blame the victim, it could be place, time, friends, wanting to go out and work, etc. it is not just the clothes.

It is relatively easy to feel empathy when it is personal, but to feel empathy in the abstract is what makes us humans. There is a saying, பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு (I am just repeating the proverb, not meant in an offensive way). My wish is it does not come to that.

Okay, I am done ....

பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு OR பட்டாதான் தெரியும் பாப்பாத்திக்கு OR பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பறையன்க்கு is not the point here.

No one is dumb to know what a rape victim undergoes and how criminal the rapist is.

The warning you are giving is totally out of context, just to talk back something!!

When we talk about wearing exposing skimpy costumes, we should know what exactly we mean. Its not about each men getting attracted/aroused differently by seeing a girl in each of different costumes.

I restrict myself from posting images of women in skimpy costumes, in this forum, to give you an idea of what is skimpy dressing we are talking about.

We are repeatedly stating that wearing skimpy dress alone is not the reasons behind each rape incidents.

We are only saying repeatedly that, in countries like India, with huge population, poverty and corruption, wearing skimpy dress indiscriminately is ALSO leading to many incidents of sexual assault, very easily.


It is drilled culturally into the minds of Ordinary Men of India that Indian Women are conscious about covering and protecting their physical body as a descent and responsible women.

If we have educated and broad minded Men in India who could accept the modern trend, women liberty etc..etc, we have hell lots of people in our densely populated and poor India who could see such girls only as SEX OBJECT that is been OPENLY PROJECTED.

In fact, as I stated before in one of my posts, there are many professionally qualified Men in higher position in Corporate/MNC's who take a chance to flirt and play naughty more easily with Sexually Exposing female colleagues, in their attempt to see if they could be convinced to Sleep with them. I myself have witnessed such things in my Industry, where some Men have attempted to do this in Airline Parties.

 

[tks]

The idea of this post is not to change anyone's mind that is locked into a position - I never attempt that anyway in any aspect of life. I just want to make that explicit before offering these comments.


I am trying to simply understand the kind of thinking that makes some people reason how someone dresses being a factor in inviting a rape situation. There are three type of reasoning I can think of.


1. In Tamil the word Karpu has a unique meaning. It can be lost by a loose woman having sex without the context of marriage (and dress could signal that she has lost it on her own or looking to do so). It can be also lost by a rapist by taking that Karpu away. So perhaps in some people's mind there is this (false ) equivalency between a 'loose woman with dress to match' and being raped. Such people do not approve of a woman getting raped anymore than they do not approve of a woman that does not dress properly and 'modestly' in their view. In both cases Karpu is not protected.






2. To explain this point let me resort to paraphrasing a story I read in an issue of Anandha Vikatan when I was in middle or high school. I have no idea when this story appeared but the plot was bizarre that I remember it after few decades even now.


The plot of the story involves a conversation between an older doctor and a young man in a train. The doctor says that there is a propensity in every person (sort of like a daemon) that is capable of doing a heinous crime if there is a way to escape without being caught with 100% certainty.

He describes how he got off in an unknown railway station and was propositioned with means to buy liquor and visit a prostitute. He ends up visiting her and thinks that if he kills her no one will ever know. So he kills her and gets back and hops on the next train. On hearing this story the young man who was otherwise unconvinced says he fully understands and says he wants to put the theory to test. Saying so he kills the doctor since no one will ever know as the train is otherwise empty.


If we were to extrapolate this to this topic, the idea is that most persons (males in this instance) has propensity to rape a woman if there was a way for them to get away. The daemon in them wakes up to an opportunity. If a woman were to dress skimpily in their view a man cannot help himself from chasing an opportunity to rape her to fulfill his desire.


While thoughts of lust arising due to the sights of a woman who dresses not so modestly is understandable it is hard to think that human beings are born with the thoughts of committing a violent sexual act simply because they can create a situation that offers an opportunity to commit the act without being caught.


3. This explanation relies on the fact that some people have had very little sexual experience in real life regardless of how old they are or if they are married or not. Marriage without much sex for decades as children are growing up is a real possibility. For such people rape is a sexual act. They know it is violent intellectually but in their heart it is a sexual act. A skimpy dress describes a woman who is advertising that she wants sex in their mind. So dress is a factor for inviting a sexual act even if it is forced.


For a mature mind upon contemplation it will be easy to see why the reasonings above are all deeply flawed.


If there are other reasons I have not been able to discern that by browsing some of the posts.

 

[Nara]

I quoted the proverb only to illustrate that sometimes realization comes only through personal experience. I don't mean any offense or disrespect to anyone. The word parpaan is not a bad word, it has been used in Tamil text for a long time, even Andal uses it as in "parpana chittarkaL pallaar eduthethi", which can hardly be considered a disrespectful usage.

On the other hand, I may be wrong about this, I think it is illegal to use the other caste name Ravi has used. If I remember right Subramanya Swami got into some trouble when he used that word.

As I have already said I am done with this topic, if anyone wants me to clarify anything please send me a PM.

Thank you....

 

[tks]

I heard a saying in Telugu (and I don't know the language) which translates to something like this : "Only a chicken knows the pain in its back when laying eggs" .. This might be a better substitute perhaps

 

[Nara]

I heard a saying in Telugu (and I don't know the language) which translates to something like this : "Only a chicken knows the pain in its back when laying eggs" .. This might be a better substitute perhaps

I agree!! But, I am a Tamilian and I am not familar with the Chicken adage. Had I known about it I would have used it instead.

 

[kunjuppu]

பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பாப்பானுக்கு OR பட்டாதான் தெரியும் பாப்பாத்திக்கு OR பட்டாத்தான் தெரியும் பறையன்க்கு is not the point here.

now that we are moving to a different plane in this thread, may i butt in here and gore my horns into the sensitivities of the virile folks here? please.

i am more interested in the etymology of the terminology used. in another thread re shudras, i objected to the very term, and some korangu member said that since the term shudra was used in vishnu sahasranamam or such, it is a legit term to use, regardless of the time period.

to me, it reflects a level of arrogance, for it does not take into consideration of the times and places where we live.

for example, in shakespearean times, to be termed a 'fool' was a complement, and i would like to term the gentleman korangu of the shudra thread, as a fool, and he can treat it as a complement a la 16th century, or of today. i leave it upto him

i would like to stress, the usage of words based on the period we use, makes a vast difference. i grew up, 'listening to birds so gay'; today i live in a neighbourhood, with 'virile lads looking so gay'. what a difference !!

i used to cringe when my uncle used to chant the purusha shuktham daily. he knew. and he knew that i knew the meaning of the origins of the groups of folks, as defined in PS. my uncle fanatically believed in it. since i had such a high opinion of him, outside of this, and we owed him so much, i kept quiet. but how can anyone believe, that one group was born out of vishnu's head, and others out of stomach, and others out of the feet...or something like that?

surely enough, those that are supposed to be born out of the nether parts, are not going to be pleased. what is strange, is that if you are brought up in a mixed neighbourhood, you never hear of such things. it is only when one is fed with solely casteist propaganda, one's mind changes to the perversion of human concept of fairness by fairness, the way i udnerstand, if i put in the other's place, it is acceptable to me.

so, dear nara, i think, the word pappaan, has to be discussed here, to get alignment from this august body, whether there is an built in insult or contempt, whenever i (or you for that matter) is called a pappaan.

but one thing is for sure..when a third party spies both a pappaan or a paambu, you should bolt like your kundi is on fire... or you are going to get the whipping of your life on your arse..and more..

the way i understand the caste based terminology of TN is going, it is going to use 'parayan'. increasingly there is an element of pride to the term..though i may be wrong in interpreting the current blogs and speeches. but shudra is still a NO NO. and we should respect that. i think so.

 

[tbs]

I heard a saying in Telugu (and I don't know the language) which translates to something like this : "Only a chicken knows the pain in its back when laying eggs" .. This might be a better substitute perhaps

hi sir,



முட்டை போடற கோழிக்கு தான் .....அதன் வலி தெரியும்.....

 

[sangom]

hi sir,



முட்டை போடற கோழிக்கு தான் .....அதன் வலி தெரியும்.....

There is a very Tabra adage, used mostly by old women among us, having the same meaning. It goes as :

அவளவள் அடித்தொடயெக் கிள்ளறோது தான் தெரியும் (அவளவள் அடித்தொடயெப் பிடுங்கறோது தான் தெரியும்).

Incidentally, both have oblique reference to the topic under discussion, which may not be apparent!!

P.S.:

This is caste-neutral, but gender-oriented, but it looks as though the maxim can apply equally well to both genders!!

 

[sangom]

Mr. Sangom,

I was not going to post in this thread. I just want to point out that when I narrated an instance when clothes was not the cause of the rape. It just happened. Your first reaction was to mock and say if it happened in a public place what the others were doing. It did not show any sympathy nor did it convey any empathy. As you said you had already made up your mind and were not going to change your view. What is surprising is that a normally logical person taking such a stand, and refusing to admit that in every case of rape clothing is not the main cause.

What is even more shocking is your failure to realize by keeping on harping on a women's dress as the cause of rape, you are actually blaming the victim. My post is not to change your view or convince you, but to let you know that every post you had made making these statements, to me it sounds like you are defending the rapists and blaming the woman in the case I had narrated because that woman was not dressed skimpily. Just because you and Mr Ravi keep repeating this statement and bringing all kinds of weird logic into it does not change that fact. It is that simple and if you can't understand that so be it. This has nothing do with morals, the way girls are brought up or the western culture.

Have a good day!
K. Kumar

I am not here to change your views or opinions, nor am I here to justify every word I write. I post my opinions here just as you do, and I don't expect any justification from you for your opinions.

K. Kumar
(http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12258-indesent-dressing-girls-29.html#post191108)

 

[sangom]

I have come to the same conclusion as Mr. K.
So I will stop.
This post was more about India as a tourist destination. I guess no tourist comes to some corner of India, and tourism does not impact personal pocketbooks.

I personally consider that if foreign tourists completely stop coming to any square feet of India, it will do much good for some vulnerable sections of our female population. These foreign tourists most generally come here for sex-tourism under one guise or another and it is our young boys and girls who become the foreign exchange earners in this trade. Perhaps, Thailand & Cambodia have been able to clamp down to some extent on their sex-tourism, which was rampant in those countries even one decade or so ago.

In Malayalam, the word "kappal (ship)" signifies STD, because before the advent of the Portuguese, STD was unknown in this country. The foreign tourists today also bring different diseases along with social decadence of a very high order, to this country. It is also a fact that those who play sex-partners to such sex-hungry white-skinned tourists (of course, in 5-star hotels and so on) spread the word and this is one very important reason for the native population at the ground-most level, coming to the general opinion that all these white-skinned women must be loose-moral-ed and will be easily pliable.

We now have Dengue fever raging in most parts of Kerala. The authorities are conducting house-to-house checks to see whether we have anything which engenders mosquito growth and destroying such items. Among the dengue stricken, there are many from the posh, upper class localities who sleep under mosquito nets, with their entire flat having mosquito mesh covering at each door/window.

I was trying to convince the authorities, therefore, that (just as rape is dress-independent) dengue seems to be mosquito-bite neutral and so may be we need not take all such efforts to reduce growth of mosquitos!! If they want, they may consult our learned members in this forum, who argue that since even maDiSAr puDavai mamis get raped, dress of the females has no relevance to rape. They smiled and went away!!

 

[kkumar29]

You can only wake a sleeping person, not one who is pretending to sleep. What a waste of time. I have learned my lesson.
Goodbye.

K. Kumar

 

[sarang]

As Tolstoy says - all happy families are alike; but every unhappy family is unhappy in a unique way'

There are so many studies by erudite people. Close to 90% of the rapes are done by the males the victim knew.

Blaming the victim is not an issue here; it the girl's sensitivity to her surroundings, people and environment. Advising girls to be more careful in all areas - dress, company, time, and surroundings (party, lonely park/road etc.)

All call centre and IT companies which employ girls working in all shifts and provide door to door transport have strict instructions to be followed - a lady cannot be the last person to be dropped or the first person to be picked up, do nit board if a new driver or taxi turns up, not to change the vehicle at the last minute to go somewhere else, contact colleague or office when in doubt). Despite these guidelines, rapes do occur, and in every instance reported, the lady has violated one or more of the instructions.

In public places one finds warning boards - beware of pickpockets and protect your valuables. Never pickpockets will be arrested or prosecuted. The potential victim has to take care. Wouldn't you hide the purse from the back pocket to some other safe pocket in a crowded place?

Mr. Sangom,

I was not going to post in this thread. I just want to point out that when I narrated an instance when clothes was not the cause of the rape. It just happened. Your first reaction was to mock and say if it happened in a public place what the others were doing. It did not show any sympathy nor did it convey any empathy. As you said you had already made up your mind and were not going to change your view. What is surprising is that a normally logical person taking such a stand, and refusing to admit that in every case of rape clothing is not the main cause.

What is even more shocking is your failure to realize by keeping on harping on a women's dress as the cause of rape, you are actually blaming the victim. My post is not to change your view or convince you, but to let you know that every post you had made making these statements, to me it sounds like you are defending the rapists and blaming the woman in the case I had narrated because that woman was not dressed skimpily. Just because you and Mr Ravi keep repeating this statement and bringing all kinds of weird logic into it does not change that fact. It is that simple and if you can't understand that so be it. This has nothing do with morals, the way girls are brought up or the western culture.

Have a good day!
K. Kumar