is love marriage acceptance

[drsundaram]

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But wat veda specifies is

When a brahmin boy marries a non-brahmin girl... the girl becomes a brahmin
When a brahmin girl marries a Non-brahmin boy... she becomes a non-brahmin...

Is that necessary... not at all...

Lets impart the need of the rituals and cultures to our kids...

(for info.... I have 2 female kids... trying to impart our culture..)

Can you please give me more references like which Veda which part/ section/ clause whatever. I know some families where such marriages are likely to happen. I wish to alert them with your specific information. Will you , therefore, please. Thanks

 

[vikrama]

Dear Sri Swaminatha Sarma,
Brahmins have lost their identity and the border line separating them from others is getting blurred day by day. As such talking about uniting all the Brahmins under a leader is like putting the clock back. This varna was created for the protection of the Vedas, to which now we pay only a lip service. When we have given up the serious study of Vedas, there is no justification for our separate existence.

கலப்பு மணத்தை நாம் எதிர்ப்பது பொருளாதாரக் காரணங்களால் அல்ல, நம் கலாசாரம் சீரழிந்து விடுமே என்பதற்காகத் தான். நமது இன்றைய கலாசாரத்தின் முக்கிய அம்சங்களைப் பார்ப்போம்.

1 உணவு- சைவ உணவும், விசேஷ நாட்களில் வெங்காயம் போன்றவைகளைச் சேர்த்துக் கொள்ளாமையும்.
2 உடை- விசேஷ நாட்களில், விசேஷ நேரத்தில் மட்டும் பஞ்சகச்சம், மடிசார்.
3 பேச்சு- ஆத்துக்கு, வாங்கோ, அத்திம்பேர் போன்ற சில விசேஷ பதப் பிரயோகங்கள்.
4 நவராத்திரி கொலு, காரடையான் நோன்பு முதலிய பண்டிகைகள்.
5 சுமங்கலிப் பிரார்த்தனை முதலிய சில சடங்குகள்.
6 மடி, விழுப்பு, தீட்டு, எச்சில், பத்து
7 சுப அசுப காரியங்களில் வைதிகத்துக்கு முக்கியத்துவம்.

இவை எல்லாமே காலத்துக்குக் காலம் மாறுபட்டுக் கொண்டு இருக்கின்றன. நம்மில் தற்போது எத்தனை பேர் நம் தந்தையரின் பழக்க வழக்கங்களை அனுசரிக்கிறோம் என்பதை அவரவரே அறிவர். வைதிக காரியங்களை நாம் எத்தனை சிரத்தையோடு செய்கிறோம் என்பதும் சொல்லித் தெரியவேண்டியதில்லை.

எல்லாவற்றிலும் சாரத்தைத் தொலைத்து விட்டுப் புறச்சின்னங்களை மட்டும் பிடித்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும் இச் சமூகம் தன் தனித்தன்மையை இழந்து விட்டது. மற்ற சமூகத்தினர் பலர் நமது பழக்க வழக்கங்களை ஏற்று வருவதால் அவர்களையும் நம்மையும் பிரிக்கும் எல்லைக் கோடு வரவர மங்கி வருகிறது. இந்நிலையில் இதை ஒரு தலைமையின் கீழ் ஒன்றுபடுத்திக் கலப்பு மணங்களை முற்றிலும் தடுத்து விடலாம் என நினைப்பது கடிகாரத்தைப் பின்னுக்குத் தள்ளிவைக்கச் செய்யும் முயற்சியே.

ஒரு உயர்ந்த லட்சியம் இல்லாத நிலையில் சிந்திக்கத் தெரிந்த மக்களை ஒரு தலைவனின் கீழ் ஒன்று படுத்துவது இயலாது. ஆடு மாடுகளை மந்தையாக மேய்க்கலாம். சிங்கங்களை முடியாது.

பிராமண வர்ணம் வேதரக்ஷணத்துக்காக ஏற்பட்டது. இதை லட்சியமாக வைத்து இதற்கு முன் வருபவர்களை மட்டும் அவர்கள் பிறப்பு எப்படி இருப்பினும் பிராமணர்களாக ஏற்றுக் கொள்ள முன் வந்தால் பிராமணர்கள் என்ற பெயரில் ஒரு குழு நிலைத்து வாழும். வேறு வழி இல்லை.

 

[vvs]

dear vikrama could you please throw some light on how and which factors had made our community give up the established practice of protecting and taking up serious study of vedas. would you want a brahmin to practice and protect vedas during a time when his own life was in shambles when there was no one around, like erstwhile rajas and jameendhars, to protect his family from economic issues.

 

[vvs]

Can you please give me more references like which Veda which part/ section/ clause whatever. I know some families where such marriages are likely to happen. I wish to alert them with your specific information. Will you , therefore, please. Thanks

dear drsundaram the very custom and practice adopted in Hindu marriages clearly indicate that a girl born in a different non-group gothram becomes the member of the gothram to which his husband belongs as soon as she was given away by her father by performing kannigathanam. this kannigathanam is practiced widely in all sects and sub-sects of Hindu community. hope your doubt might have been cleared to some extent if not fully
vvs

 

[vikrama]

dear vikrama could you please throw some light on how and which factors had made our community give up the established practice of protecting and taking up serious study of vedas. would you want a brahmin to practice and protect vedas during a time when his own life was in shambles when there was no one around, like erstwhile rajas and jameendhars, to protect his family from economic issues.

Yes. You are right. When the community lost royal patronage, it gave up study of vedas. But even when the brahmins were patronised, there were some namesake brahmins who had taken to trades. The sangam literature derisively calls them as 'vela parppan', (one who does not perform yagas). That was the period when the varna degenerated into Jathi. Once it became a jathi, those who did not do the duties prescribed for the varna, claimed the privileges for their being born in that dynasty. At first it was given frowningly. then it was stopped. Thus degeneration set in. This is the natural law. We can not stop the march of the times.
(Before the jathi system set in, anyone with a flair for vedic study was admitted into it and he was regarded as a Brahmin irrespective of his birth.)

 

[civilsoft_bala]

I feel, answer to your question depends on rigidity and flexibility of attitudes of the boy and that of the girl. If he boy is more rigid in his traditions and the girl is flexible, she will get adopted to his traditions (i.e, if she is a non-brahmin, she will adopt the traditions of Brahminism), on contrary is the girl is rigid, boy will get adopted to her culture (say he may start eating Non-veg). But any one has to be flexible, or else the relation is in danger !!!.
Generally in Indian scenario, it is that in a mriiage the girl comes to boy's house, and hence generally the girl will adopt herself to the boy's traditions.
I hope i have replied to your query.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Swaminthasharma Ji,
My posting was not to say anything about mixing Pakistanis and TBs. My point was, when you said that 'different races' should not mix to say that TBs should not marry NBs, your assertion is wrong on the grounds of the meaning of the term 'race'. You can say that different Jathis should not mix or different communities should not mix. But you said 'races should not mix' and in the context of this thread, your choice of this word 'race' is wrong. That's all.

Regards,
KRS

Am not wrong KRS ji......

I stand on it... Well if indians and pakistanis may be south indian race....but wat about culture....

Our tradition and culture are entirely different from pakistanis.. Dont compare pakistanis with brahmin culture ji......

I object girls marrying NB boys.... that is my stand.... Well if such things still continues, its only because of the parents who are not brought up in right way....

That shud be the reason.....

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Swaminathasharma Ji,

Again, you are confusing with using some words that are understood to have a particular meaning in different contexts.

'Vedas' are usually used to describe the four Vedas and the Upanishads. Smrithis and Itihasas are not called Vedas.

There is nothing in our 'Vedas' (as per what is generally understood) to support your claim on these marriages. Sorry.

Regards,
KRS

But wat veda specifies is

When a brahmin boy marries a non-brahmin girl... the girl becomes a brahmin
When a brahmin girl marries a Non-brahmin boy... she becomes a non-brahmin...

Is that necessary... not at all...

Lets impart the need of the rituals and cultures to our kids...

(for info.... I have 2 female kids... trying to impart our culture..)

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Sharma,

Don't get upset. 'Sruthis' are different from 'Smritis'. "Manu Smritis' are not totally relevant today. With my limited knowledge, I can say there is a lot of gender based and caste based discrimination in them. Moreover, certain practices and procedures laid down in them are outdated and unfair, by today's yardstick.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Swaminathasharma Ji,

Please do not take my corrections as personal attacks. One has to be precise in what one says, otherwise the meaning gets distorted.

I would never trivialize your sentiment about marriage between TBs and NBs. You have every right to express them. But please be careful as to what words you choose to use.

I have corrected your innocent mistake on math in a different thread. You did not get upset. Why are you getting upset now, for the same type of correction?

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

swami,

please do not leave the forum due to perceived misunderstandings.

we are communicating in english, which is our second tongue.

we are communicating through different usage of words. krs and myself have lived outside of india for over 35 years, and we do not mean any insult or criticism.

the 'living outside of india' i mean to say, only that re usage of certain words, may carry different intonations and may be understood as different moods. these are limitations, also of any written communications.

it should not be perceived as such as critcism or censure. krs and i would never do that.

if you feel that moderators have insulted you, please ask for clarifications. that is only fair. for otherwise, you are not being fair to us.

i am hoping that you will set aside your misgivings, in the light of so many of us pleading with you.

thank you in advance.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Vikrama,

I have never come across any phrase "vela parppan" in Sangam literature, that you refer to. Will you please quote the sources?

 

[sapthajihva]

It seems that smrithis are not considered guidelines by some... this is nothing but a wayward's adaptation of the rule to suit his frame of mind.

The smrithis were not written for earning royalty or for fame - they are to organize the society and to harmonize the functioning so that individual/societal goals are acheived in a smooth manner.

But this is kaliyuga, and discarding of smrithis by 'thinkers' is to be expected.

As if everyone does everything as said in the vedas, some ask for specific references from the shrutis. Seems that some are above the level of smrithis!

The smrithi is the implementation part. If one leaves out the implementation mechanism, how will the understanding arise?

Majority have ignored the smrithis for our convenience; after ignoring, it is wrong to say that the smrithis are impractical. One has to just acknowledge that one is not capable of following the smrithi dutifully.

That is all it takes.

 

[Siddhanta]

It would be better for those boys and girl who are presently behing NB guys, of the future, like filling the caste in application form, or how to face the relations, or how to participate in a marriage function....or hw they wil perform marriage for their kids in future.... If these are made known to them... perhaps they will not commit these mistakes...

Swaminathasharma Ji,

You are perfectly correct. I fully agree with your views.

However i would suggest that you stay on this forum and help people with your knowledge in Astrology.

I have posted on Hindu forums, and this is precisely where we can see the difference between Hinduism and other Religions. If you see in other religious forums, the moderators would be fundamentalists of that religion, strongly supporting their faiths. Even a little deviation from their faiths would not be accepted. Such posts will be promptly deleted and the member banned immediately without even a warning. That is how other religions work.

But if you take Hindu forums, i have posted on Hinduism and people from other religions post pretending to be Hindus and bash me and what they say is illogical and it will be obvious that they are not Hindus. There will be more than such posters bashing and there will be no action taken or posts removed. I have seen such scenarios on other forums and i know very well this is a sign that Hinduism is on the decline.

But i have decided to post the information i have regardless of whether it is accepted or not.

Also regarding love marriage, today our culture is changed totally. Today when a person marries or loves someone from a different cast, it is not considered an insult. What is considered an insult is, if a person does not have a boyfriend or girlfriend!

You are perfectly right about the fact that parents should strictly raise their kids with our culture. It is the parents fault.

 

[suraju06]

!. "whatever should not be mixed has already been mixed." -- We are not talking about mixing of milk with coffee. We are talking about a large population with heterogenous traits. Mixing at the fringe will not affect the large body of population and so cannot be a reason for desperation and acceptance of mixing.
2. "Nature wants variety and speciality to stay and continue"-- This is specious. There cannot be anything else farther from truth. Nature allows fittest to survive. But intermixing does not emsure fitness. The two are different. We have not yet understood fully what happens when "mixing" occurs. Better to stay away from such shots into the wilderness.

 

[happyhindu]

2. "Nature wants variety and speciality to stay and continue"-- This is specious. There cannot be anything else farther from truth. Nature allows fittest to survive. But intermixing does not emsure fitness. The two are different. We have not yet understood fully what happens when "mixing" occurs. Better to stay away from such shots into the wilderness.

reminds of the arguments in some bio forums - did or not the other homo groups, like neanderthalensis, interbreed with a section of the sapiens...

in evolutionary terms, interbreeding is considered experiments by nature to create a better output, to create survivors, to create variance, to avoid disease inheritance, etc.....the best way to ensure better progeny is to select a family that has no family history of certain diseases...perhaps this is an other shot in the wilderness...

 

[suraju06]

Dear Happy Hindu,
The question is what constitutes fitness. Is it just physical or it involves other things also?( A girl while driving back home in a car in the night suddenly applies brakes to avoid a cat which darts across the road but being unsure about what happened to the cat is unable to slep and gets nightmares.Another boy gets up in the morning and on his mother's instruction runs behind a chicken, catches it kills it and cleans it for his mother to prepare the breakfast. Both are healthy individuals and ideal match for a marriage. But only physically. What about other things?) By cross breeding u may enhance certain aspects and destroy altogether certain other aspects. That is why there is a hue and cry about GM vegetables. And I donot say that mixing does not happen. It does occur. But with such uncertainties, should we look at it as an option. We should try to avoid it if we can. That is the point I am making.Thank you.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri suraju06 Ji,

No one is advocating and promoting mixing.

The argument is about why one should not mix. Seems to me that an argument based on saving and presrving one's culture is very valid and should be enough.

My problem is with the logic that mixing would cause harm genetically or otherwise in the long run and so should be avoided. This is not supported by today's science. So, it is an opinion unsupported by evidence. By the way, what I said about the mixing of races is that almost all Indians have mixed blood.

So, your premise on keeping the TB community pure is better served by arguing on keeping the culture but not on the 'specious' genetic argument.

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

There is no 'genetics' involved; but only retention. preservation and promotion of our culture are emphasized here.

I know many people who have left their traditions and even beliefs mostly, if not altogether, after marrying outside our community. In case of marriages with persons speaking other languages or practising other faiths, the damage of the highest order is done.

I do not buy the argument of inbreeding and cross-breeding strains. We are after all human beings. It is utter non-sense to argue that in case of cross-breeding. people's health is assured or chances of their getting diseases are eliminated/reduced drastically. Doctors the world over advise only against marrying close relatives, especially blood relatives, because "the probability of genetic disorders in their case is higher than the other cases".

They never said and we have also not witnessed that "all who have married within their close circles contract many kinds of genetic disorders". It is a totally wrong and baseless view.

Cross-breeding per se does not guarantee more strength, greater intelligence and perfect health. Let's be very clear about that.

 

[happyhindu]

I do not buy the argument of inbreeding and cross-breeding strains. We are after all human beings. It is utter non-sense to argue that in case of cross-breeding. people's health is assured or chances of their getting diseases are eliminated/reduced drastically. Doctors the world over advise only against marrying close relatives, especially blood relatives, because "the probability of genetic disorders in their case is higher than the other cases".

They never said and we have also not witnessed that "all who have married within their close circles contract many kinds of genetic disorders". It is a totally wrong and baseless view.

Cross-breeding per se does not guarantee more strength, greater intelligence and perfect health. Let's be very clear about that.

i agree with krs ji that culture preservation is the key. and it shd be left at that. lets not bring race theories and genetics in between.

breeding within relatives is the better way of ensuring familial continuation of disease states...anyways, i request shri pannvalan ji to read on genetic counselling...

 

[vikrama]

dear vikrama,

i have never come across any phrase "vela parppan" in sangam literature, that you refer to. Will you please quote the sources?

அகநானூறு பாடல் எண் 24. வரி 1

 

[happyhindu]

It seems that smrithis are not considered guidelines by some... this is nothing but a wayward's adaptation of the rule to suit his frame of mind.

The smrithis were not written for earning royalty or for fame - they are to organize the society and to harmonize the functioning so that individual/societal goals are acheived in a smooth manner.

But this is kaliyuga, and discarding of smrithis by 'thinkers' is to be expected.

As if everyone does everything as said in the vedas, some ask for specific references from the shrutis. Seems that some are above the level of smrithis!

The smrithi is the implementation part. If one leaves out the implementation mechanism, how will the understanding arise?

Majority have ignored the smrithis for our convenience; after ignoring, it is wrong to say that the smrithis are impractical. One has to just acknowledge that one is not capable of following the smrithi dutifully.

That is all it takes.

To follow smrithis, the texts must be:

a) free from interpolations.

b) since various smrithis were complied by diff people in diff parts of India, they may contradict one another and cause confusion about the Dos and Donts.

Since smrithis have varied from time to time, if one needs to follow a smrithi now, it must be suitable to the times. And possibly it must also be the kind that is followed by all tamil brahmins as a single group so as to avoid intra-community conflict about the Dos and Donts, just in case diff sub-castes or groups are following diff smrithis.

Views of Swami Shivananda on the need for a new law-code: http://www.dlshq.org/religions/smritis.htm

this apart, me thinks, the present law system is what the indian government has implemented constitutionally....in that past the hindu law-makers did not need to accomodate ppl of diff religions, and their jurisdiction extended to just the area for which the smrithi was compiled. Now that india is a large country with diverse populations, am wondering if there can be a smrithi that can prescribe Dos and Donts for all of them....

 

[suraju06]

Culture influences genes.(Read Times of India , Chennai Edition, Page 13 dated 30,oct,09) So if you have well developed genes from a particular cultural background what is wrong in choosing from the same genetic(developed from the same cultural background)stock for mating to produce good offsprings? Why do you want to take a genetic stock from a different cultural background and do an experiment and then regret that the genie is not going back into the bottle? It has been proved by current scientific research that culture influences genes. So genes from a particular cultural background should seek similar genes from the same cultural background. The argument is not specious. Only the other point that "take care of culture alone and leave genes aside" appears to be specious. It is so obvious.Please read my example of boy and girl from different cultural backgrounds given in my earlier posting. If your cultural background has been superimposed on your genes through generations and if you agree that culture is important, then the best way to preserve your culture as well as your progeneies will be to choose your mate from the same cultural background-the other word for this being race/caste.

 

[Siddhanta]

Today life is like a machine. Parents dont even have the time to educate their kids. In many cases both are working and the kids grow up by watching TV and the like. The western culture is being emphasized all the time and in the future nobody will have any idea what our culture is all about.

Sometimes people get married late and there are situations where parents pass away early where they could not arrange marriage for their children. Also the fear that whether or not an arranged marriage can be trusted raises doubts in the minds of people because very few trust in astrology and practice it correctly. All this urges the youngsters of today to find their own partner. Also the number of divorces are increasing day by day since people cannot trust each other. There is no peace of mind in this sort of life.

My suggestion is, people must start educating their children about the Hindu culture and the greatness of Hinduism. They must be taught the basics of Hinduism, how it differs from other religions, how the Vedas explained the structure of the universe correctly, how astrology explained our solar system and so on. Then before teaching the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata, the time slots must be explained to them. Which event took place in which Yuga. The avatars of Lord Vishnu in every Yuga should be explained to them. The discovery of the city of Dwaraka should be explained to them which proves all our epics are true.

Finally the nature of time we are living in should be taught to them. The nature of Kali Yuga and the materialistic attachment. All this can be taught in a very simple say so that the kids understand the basics of existence. This must be the duty of the parents. Because this is not done, nobody knows the exact nature of Hinduism. the westerners successfully succeeded in suppressing the greatness of Hinduism, but if an attempt is made, the future generation could be made aware of our culture and way of life.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri suraju06 Ji,

Of course environment influences one's genetic behaviour. This is well known.

The problem with your argument on choosing from the same genetic pool is this. It has been shown that if the marriages take place within a limited geographical and social groups, genetic problems, healthwise occur to the progeny. Like the Parsis, Jews and even our community have these problems, because of the limited pool from which to choose the mate. It is a scientifically proven fact that the more distance between the father and mother in terms of genetic make up, the more probability the recessive genes do not transmit down.

This is why your argument is wrong.

As I have said, we can very easily argue for intra marriage within our community on the basis of culture, without involving genes.

Hope this clarifies.

Regards,
KRS

Culture influences genes.(Read Times of India , Chennai Edition, Page 13 dated 30,oct,09) So if you have well developed genes from a particular cultural background what is wrong in choosing from the same genetic(developed from the same cultural background)stock for mating to produce good offsprings? Why do you want to take a genetic stock from a different cultural background and do an experiment and then regret that the genie is not going back into the bottle? It has been proved by current scientific research that culture influences genes. So genes from a particular cultural background should seek similar genes from the same cultural background. The argument is not specious. Only the other point that "take care of culture alone and leave genes aside" appears to be specious. It is so obvious.Please read my example of boy and girl from different cultural backgrounds given in my earlier posting. If your cultural background has been superimposed on your genes through generations and if you agree that culture is important, then the best way to preserve your culture as well as your progeneies will be to choose your mate from the same cultural background-the other word for this being race/caste.