is love marriage acceptance

[pannvalan]

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Within the same community, viz. Tamil Brahmins, a vast range of genetic diversity is available. Only for this purpose, one need not look outside.

Within the same community enough cultural diversity, but with an invisible common thread, is present.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Pannvalan Ji,

Can you explain this? What 'vast range of genetic diversity' available within the TB community? Please elaborate. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

Within the same community, viz. Tamil Brahmins, a vast range of genetic diversity is available. Only for this purpose, one need not look outside.

Within the same community enough cultural diversity, but with an invisible common thread, is present.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Vikrama,

Thank you so much for helping me refresh my literary knowledge. I found the phrase in 'Aganaanooru', as you had mentioned. Here, such people are stated to have cut shells and made bangles. (Even the 'Nakkeeran' is supposed to have been engaged in this activity or profession, though he was a brahmin).

I compared that with 'Tholkappiam' and 'Silappadhikaaram'. for any comparable references.

In Tholkaappiam, under 'Agaththinaiyiyal' of 'Porul Adhikaaram', I found this.

Stanza No. 27 - Reasons for 'Thalaivan' leaving 'Thalaivi' -

"Odhalum, Thoodhum uyarndhor mena" - which means for learning (kalvi) and for going as a reprsentative/ambassador of somebody, usually the king, uyarndhor (uyar kudiyai cherndha andhanar) leave their sweetheart. Here, 'odhuthal' means learning by recital and teaching (payitruviththal) by recital. I get an additional meaning of conducting rituals, by reciting mantras or vedas (not necessarily homams/velvis)

Silappadhikaaram talks about different functions/roles of 'maraiyor' / 'maamudhu paarppaan', repeatedly on so many occasions, in various contexts. Several words are used by Ilango Adigal to describe the brahmin community. Each of them does not contradict each other.

Therefore, I say 'Velap Paarppan' refers to one sect of 'parppans' who do not conduct homams (yagam has a different connotation), in their routine life.

Even today we see not all brahmins are engaged in the profession of 'purohitam'.

So, where is derisiveness in this phrase?

I am eager to continue this interesting debate.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri KRS ji's post has already answered this. i just have one thing to say:

There is nothing called "well developed genes".

Culture influences genes.(Read Times of India , Chennai Edition, Page 13 dated 30,oct,09) So if you have well developed genes from a particular cultural background what is wrong in choosing from the same genetic(developed from the same cultural background)stock for mating to produce good offsprings? Why do you want to take a genetic stock from a different cultural background and do an experiment and then regret that the genie is not going back into the bottle? It has been proved by current scientific research that culture influences genes. So genes from a particular cultural background should seek similar genes from the same cultural background. The argument is not specious. Only the other point that "take care of culture alone and leave genes aside" appears to be specious. It is so obvious.Please read my example of boy and girl from different cultural backgrounds given in my earlier posting. If your cultural background has been superimposed on your genes through generations and if you agree that culture is important, then the best way to preserve your culture as well as your progeneies will be to choose your mate from the same cultural background-the other word for this being race/caste.

 

[suraju06]

Dear KRS ji,
consanguiness marriage is quite different from marriage within the community. In our community this has been well taken care off by the Gothra system. People of the same gothra do not marry. consanguines marriages between cousins is an aberration for extraneous reasons. I still believe marriage within the community taking care of the gothra requirements adequately takes care of the bad effects of recessive genes. But giving recessive genes as the reason for marrying outside the community does not appear to be borne by any proof. I would rather say you do not know what you are in for in a cross community marriage(I am not speaking here about the genetic future shock alone though it is major consideration). In the changed times if you think girls and boys have to understand each other before marriage, allow them to know each other. But let it be only within the community. Not outside. If you allow the later option you may be in for a future shock both genetic after 2 or 3 generations as well as a cultural one immediately. Let us agree to disagree if you still hold on to your view that cross community marriages improve the genetic stock. Thanks.

 

[suraju06]

ok. ok. It may not be well developed genes. I just tried to convey an idea through that. Shall we call it "genes having homogenety because of common superimposed cultural background". Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Suraj,

I have only one request for you: Please read up on genetics a wee bit before you bring that topic into your discussions.

As far as culture is concerned, you are on track. But sir, without knowing anything about a particular field like genetics, it is better to refrain from making references to it.

As far as gothras are concerned, a lot has been discussed about it in old threads on this forum. Please do look them up.

Moreover you mention "race/caste" which probably might mean that you consider caste as race. I also request you to read up a bit on race if you so wish.

Regards.

Dear KRS ji,
consanguiness marriage is quite different from marriage within the community. In our community this has been well taken care off by the Gothra system. People of the same gothra do not marry. consanguines marriages between cousins is an aberration for extraneous reasons. I still believe marriage within the community taking care of the gothra requirements adequately takes care of the bad effects of recessive genes. But giving recessive genes as the reason for marrying outside the community does not appear to be borne by any proof. I would rather say you do not know what you are in for in a cross community marriage(I am not speaking here about the genetic future shock alone though it is major consideration). In the changed times if you think girls and boys have to understand each other before marriage, allow them to know each other. But let it be only within the community. Not outside. If you allow the later option you may be in for a future shock both genetic after 2 or 3 generations as well as a cultural one immediately. Let us agree to disagree if you still hold on to your view that cross community marriages improve the genetic stock. Thanks.

 

[happyhindu]

ok. ok. It may not be well developed genes. I just tried to convey an idea through that. Shall we call it "genes having homogenety because of common superimposed cultural background". Thank you.

Sir,

honestly, i do not understand what you mean.

i think your idea of genetics is influenced by religious thot - in such a case i request you to refrain from calling it genetics.

not referring to you, but i sort of find it comical to read senseless and baseless ideas of genes related to purity, superiority, and pan-brahmanism from kashmir to kerala.

Some terms used by bloggers like cultural genes, aryan genes, dravidian genes, genetically-a-kshatriya, genetically a brahmin, genetic inheritance of wisdom, genetically perfect, genetically the best, genetically superior, etc are all really amusing.

Regards.

 

[suraju06]

I am indeed indebted to the genetist cum Social scientist Happyhindu for the advice he has given to me about studying genetics and social science. I thought I was in the company of people who come here to discuss and communicate. But now I understand that some of them are here to make only value judgments. Thanks.

 

[suraju06]

You may be amused. I cant help it. I am also amused. Now can you let me know what is your understanding of a gene and how culture affects it- for a starter. Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

I am indeed indebted to the genetist cum Social scientist Happyhindu for the advice he has given to me about studying genetics and social science. I thought I was in the company of people who come here to discuss and communicate. But now I understand that some of them are here to make only value judgments. Thanks.

Raju,

i cud also call your comments on genetics and culture as "value judgements". except that they have no basis.

i did not make comments to hurt you. Since you were passing statements without any basis, i merely put forward a few things.

Request you have no hard feelings please. If i have hurt you, then i apologise.

 

[happyhindu]

You may be amused. I cant help it. I am also amused. Now can you let me know what is your understanding of a gene and how culture affects it- for a starter. Thank you.

am sorry sir, i do not have any such pedagogical skills.

there are several papers available on the net on how the environment affects genes. you may please look them up.

i can only suggest a simple start to an acid called dna: DNA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

regards.

 

[pannvalan]

Genetic diversity

Dear KRS,

My reply to your query is in the file attached.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear KRS,

My reply to your query is in the file attached.

Contents of the attached doc (just so that its easier to access, and does not need to be downloaded each time one wishes to access ir or quote it):

I leave Shri KRS ji to answer this (to me, many parts of the below are a flawed argument but further than that i have no comments -- i do not wish for my words to be taken as offending anyone).

GENETIC DIVERSITY WITHIN THE COMMUNITY​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By genetics, we usually talk about the heredity/inheritance of many physiological/neurological structures and attributes and behavioural patterns or personality traits, from the biological parents and other close relatives. This usually occurs at the time of one’s birth and once it is transmitted, any further changes in them occur only in the behavioural patterns, due to environmental factors that include the influences of the parents.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This transmission is done through genes, from either of the parents. There are several components with chromosomes being the basic. Others are DNA, genes, cells etc. The genetic mapping contains the information about one’s make-up – physiologically and neurologically.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The physiological features are outwardly visible mostly. But, in the case of neurological aspects, unless one is subjected to appropriate screening and detailed analysis, they cannot be studied and known in detail.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Usually, one’s body structure like height, facial features, skin complexion, colour of the eye pupils etc. are decided by heredity. Moreover, hypertension, diabetes, asthma, autism, Down’s syndrome (Mangolism), mental retardation etc. are caused mostly by heredity, but not necessarily in 100% of the cases.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Moreover, incidence of several other disorders like phenylketonuria, schizophrenia have a strong connection with one’s heredity, especially chromosomes/DNA. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alright, having given such a long explanation, I request you to study these issues deeply.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Of two children born to the same parents, why one child is fair and the other [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] dark? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Similarly, one is healthy, but the other is not; One is very intelligent, the other [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] not so intelligent or even sub-normal. One is good natured, but not the other. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Thus, we can keep on comparing on various attributes or characteristics. Except [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] in heredity, biologists could not find possible answers or explanations for such [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] occurrences elsewhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Regarding the divergence or diversity, in terms of the genetic make up, amongst our own community members, we can see for ourselves the wide variations noticed in the average height, skin complexion, eye pupil colour, health conditions and also certain visible traits of members of various families,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]groups or clans.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]With the dispersal across the world now, the food habits, climatic conditions and also education and exposure to differing cultures and ethnic groups, the divergence and diversity of Tamil Brahmins in the above-described aspects are well pronounced, without subjecting ourselves to detailed examination.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Many psychologists, physicians, biologists, sociologists and cultural anthropologists point out and acknowledge, even one’s intelligence is determined by birth. Though this claim is not proved beyond doubt, many agree that the range of I.Q. i.e. the lower threshold and the upper threshold are pre-determined, by are large. Exceptions will be there to such generalizations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sir Francis Galton[/FONT][FONT=&quot] says, “Greatness or otherwise runs in families”. He quoted the examples of many popular contemporary warriors, politicians, social thinkers, musicians, artists and litterateurs, to buttress his claim.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In a similar vein, we say “Pulikkup pirndadhu poonai aguma?”, “Meen kunjukku neendha katru kodukkanuma?”, “Kulathalavu agumam gunam”, “Kulavichai kallaamal bagam padum” etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]The classic experiment of Gregor Mendel with common garden peas, spoke about dominant genes and recessive genes and he went on to explain the law of segregation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]The genetic mutations occurring on a continuous basis ensure that no one is just a replica of one’s own parents. This explains the relevance of proverbs like “Vathiar pillai makku”, “Setrile malarndha senthamarai” etc. (These are exceptions on the other extreme).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CONCLUSION:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now, please tell me if there are divergence and diversity within our community to the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]noticeable degree or not? Our community fast becoming a migrant community like Jews, the physical, educational, economical, social and cultural divergence and disparities are there for all to see. Such being the case, why we should look outside our community, only for the sake of cross-breeding aiming for greater benefits? Can anyone disagree?[/FONT]

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri suraju06 Ji,

Consanguiness marriges further complicates the problem with continuing the bad mutated genes, precisely because it is done in a closed genetic pool. This does not assure the need for distance to assure variety, because 1) it does not take in to account the mother's genes at all and so increasing the likelihood that one marries one's distant cousin and 2) by further reducing the gene pool available by mating only within even subsects within the TB community. Consanguiness marriages also permit a male father's sister's daughter and vice versa.

Unfortunately, contrary to your assertion there are a lot of scientific studies done on inter social group / geographical group marriages, that show the positive effects of not marrying within a closed gene pool. You may especially want to read the plight of the Parsis, whose existence is threatened as a social group because of inter marrying within the closed group, as well as the similar endogamous practices of the Ashkanazy Jews.

I would encourage you to a long list of scientific studies out there as well as a crash couse on genetics, as Srimathi HH Ji suggests as it seems that you do not seem to grasp even the fundamentals of how the genetic disorders come about.

I also agree with Srimathi HH Ji, that your statements about encouraging TB children to marry within the community based on cultural reasons are spot on.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS ji,
consanguiness marriage is quite different from marriage within the community. In our community this has been well taken care off by the Gothra system. People of the same gothra do not marry. consanguines marriages between cousins is an aberration for extraneous reasons. I still believe marriage within the community taking care of the gothra requirements adequately takes care of the bad effects of recessive genes. But giving recessive genes as the reason for marrying outside the community does not appear to be borne by any proof. I would rather say you do not know what you are in for in a cross community marriage(I am not speaking here about the genetic future shock alone though it is major consideration). In the changed times if you think girls and boys have to understand each other before marriage, allow them to know each other. But let it be only within the community. Not outside. If you allow the later option you may be in for a future shock both genetic after 2 or 3 generations as well as a cultural one immediately. Let us agree to disagree if you still hold on to your view that cross community marriages improve the genetic stock. Thanks.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Pannvalen Ji,

My comments are below on your document in 'blue'.

However, I want to make one thing clear. I am not against inrta-group marriages, to preserve our culture / way of life. But then when science tells something conclusively, I do not accept an argument that uses wrongly the scientific finding to support the intra group marriages either. So please take my comments on these lines.

GENETIC DIVERSITY WITHIN THE COMMUNITY​

[FONT=&quot]By genetics, we usually talk about the heredity/inheritance of many physiological/neurological structures and attributes and behavioural patterns or personality traits, from the biological parents and other close relatives. This usually occurs at the time of one’s birth and once it is transmitted, any further changes in them occur only in the behavioural patterns, due to environmental factors that include the influences of the parents.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This transmission is done through genes, from either of the parents. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is NOT from 'either' of the parent - it is from both parents. X Chromosome from mother, Y chromosome from father to son and another X from father to daughter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are several components with chromosomes being the basic. Others are DNA, genes, cells etc. The genetic mapping contains the information about one’s make-up – physiologically and neurologically.[/FONT]
It is more than that. How we look, think, act and most of all 'be' a living organism are defined by the underlyin cell structure which have these components.

[FONT=&quot]The physiological features are outwardly visible mostly. But, in the case of neurological aspects, unless one is subjected to appropriate screening and detailed analysis, they cannot be studied and known in detail.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Usually, one’s body structure like height, facial features, skin complexion, colour of the eye pupils etc. are decided by heredity. Moreover, hypertension, diabetes, asthma, autism, Down’s syndrome (Mangolism), mental retardation etc. are caused mostly by heredity, but not necessarily in 100% of the cases.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Moreover, incidence of several other disorders like phenylketonuria, schizophrenia have a strong connection with one’s heredity, especially chromosomes/DNA. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alright, having given such a long explanation, I request you to study these issues deeply.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Of two children born to the same parents, why one child is fair and the other [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]dark? [/FONT]
Human beings have 20000 to 30000 DNA types. Out of all these only a handful determine the appearance, weight, height etc. These are called fenotypes. It has been shown that these account for all the variations between all humans and again about 99% of all genes are common to all humans. These fenotype genes are passed through our parents as well, and include the charecteristics of all our forefathers (even before the Gothra Rishis). Studies have found that, for example, Madurai Iyer Brahmins have haplotypes that are very closely related to people in Central Asia (as opposed to other TN population), and other studies have proved that some TN Brahmin clans have matches of genes with Bengali Brahmins and some others with the South East Asian (Indonesia and the like). So, it is clear our social group has had quite a gene mixing in the past. So, it is not surprising that we have progenies with different physical attributes.

[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Similarly, one is healthy, but the other is not; One is very intelligent, the other [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]not so intelligent or even sub-normal. One is good natured, but not the other. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thus, we can keep on comparing on various attributes or characteristics. Except [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]in heredity, biologists could not find possible answers or explanations for such [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]occurrences elsewhere.[/FONT]
Yes, all this can be explained by only heredity.

[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Regarding the divergence or diversity, in terms of the genetic make up, amongst our own community members, we can see for ourselves the wide variations noticed in the average height, skin complexion, eye pupil colour, health conditions and also certain visible traits of members of various families,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]groups or clans.[/FONT]
Yes, this is because, it seems our forefathers married in to a wide variety of outside groups as the study of haplotypes and the physical observation suggests.

[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]With the dispersal across the world now, the food habits, climatic conditions and also education and exposure to differing cultures and ethnic groups, the divergence and diversity of Tamil Brahmins in the above-described aspects are well pronounced, without subjecting ourselves to detailed examination.[/FONT]
If you mean that we have a unique social group, you are correct.

[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Many psychologists, physicians, biologists, sociologists and cultural anthropologists point out and acknowledge, even one’s intelligence is determined by birth. Though this claim is not proved beyond doubt, many agree that the range of I.Q. i.e. the lower threshold and the upper threshold are pre-determined, by are large. Exceptions will be there to such generalizations.[/FONT]
Okay.

[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sir Francis Galton[/FONT][FONT=&quot] says, “Greatness or otherwise runs in families”. He quoted the examples of many popular contemporary warriors, politicians, social thinkers, musicians, artists and litterateurs, to buttress his claim.[/FONT]
Okay.

[FONT=&quot]In a similar vein, we say “Pulikkup pirndadhu poonai aguma?”, “Meen kunjukku neendha katru kodukkanuma?”, “Kulathalavu agumam gunam”, “Kulavichai kallaamal bagam padum” etc.[/FONT]
Okay.
[FONT=&quot]7.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The classic experiment of Gregor Mendel with common garden peas, spoke about dominant genes and recessive genes and he went on to explain the law of segregation.[/FONT]
Among others, yes.

[FONT=&quot]8.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The genetic mutations occurring on a continuous basis ensure that no one is just a replica of one’s own parents. This explains the relevance of proverbs like “Vathiar pillai makku”, “Setrile malarndha senthamarai” etc. (These are exceptions on the other extreme).[/FONT]
Okay.

[FONT=&quot]CONCLUSION:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now, please tell me if there are divergence and diversity within our community to the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]noticeable degree or not? Our community fast becoming a migrant community like Jews, the physical, educational, economical, social and cultural divergence and disparities are there for all to see. Such being the case, why we should look outside our community, only for the sake of cross-breeding aiming for greater benefits? Can anyone disagree?[/FONT]
Sir, you quote all these science and conclude with the plea for not marrying outside besed on social reasons.

Let me put it to you what genetic studies have proved. This is science, I am talking about. Not sociology, religion, psychology or any other social science.

1. Science says that inter marrying within a closed social/ethnic/social groups will result in bad genes being passed down. That will result in the diseases above mentioned by you being passed on to the progeny in increasing probabilities. Two classic examples of this phenomenon that are well studied" The Parsis (about 100,000 population) and the Ashkanazy jews - about 12 million) - both practice endogamous marriages.

2. Both have a litany of genetic diseases, passed down for generations, and some unique diseases that do not occur in other groups.

3. TBs are about 2 to 3 million strong, and even within this group, we have segmented ourselves in to various sub=sects for marriage. To complicate things, instead of excluding both the parents' birth gothras for consideration for marriage, we permit the children to marry into the mother's gothram. So obviously, here we even lose the protection of the randomness in selection.

4. Your argument that just because now TBs are geographically diverse to negate the problems from marriage within the closed group is not valid. We still marry within the social group.

5. I have seen anecdotally a huge number of genetic problems within my extended family. Out of nine of my cousins, three have congenital heart problems. I can cite other examples.

6. I am saying all this because of some of our members' efforts here to wrongly use science to justify our inter group marriages. I do not think that such a justification based on science is valid at all.
7. Hopefully, I am praying that the same science that has uncovered the genetic maladies will oneday fix the same, so groups like us need not be affected by being closed in terms of partner selections.

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

1. In case of marriages within the same community, that is geographically widespread
and having diverse cultural practices, but linked by an invisible thread, the threat
of congenital disorders seems only remote.

2. Scientists merely say that there is only greater tendency- not absolute certainty -
to contract genetically transmitted disorders/diseases, in case of marriages within
consanguineous groups.

(Idhu nadanthe theerum endru avargal solluvathillai; ippadi nigazhvatharku vaippugal adhigam
endru mattume avargal solgirargal).

3. If one talks about the negative effects of such marriages, the positive effects
also must be talked about, as extensively. Are there any scientific studies done
to verify and measure the positive effects too, to the satisfaction and acceptance
of most of the scientific community?

4. It is quite unfair to compare Parsis community with ours, for the following reasons.

(a) Our community population is quite larger, as compared to theirs.
(b) The Parsis population is dwindling, whereas ours is growing in terms of
numbers.
(c) We are more liberal than them, in many respects.

5. There are studies, which refute the links between Tamil Brahmins and the other
social groups of Central Asia, in the known history. In other words, the link that
you talk about may have occurred more than 10,000 years ago and do you mean
to say, the genetic transmission keeps on occurring on a set pattern for
thousands and thousands of years, without a break, without a change?

6. Similarity is not equivalent to identical nature. A middle aged male adult and his
friend's young son have several things in common like some interests and
preferences and certain other beahaviour. With this, can one rush to conclude
something rubbish?

7. Finally, can anyone guarantee that in the case of inter-caste marriages, congenital disorders
are ruled out?

8. Also, we cannot take into account only the experiments done by the scientists -
physicians, biologists, bio-chemists et al - but negating or not taking cognisance
of the studies done by sociologists, psychologists, cultural anthropologists and the
like altogether, simply because of the reason their studies are not 100% scientific.
It amounts to rejecting all the social and demographic studies that have been
validated by the westerners themselves.

9. I also request you not to be totally guided or misguided by western research
studies, as they only provide significant pointers, but not conclusive proof.


N.B: I refused to marry my cousin precisely for the same reasons what you have
listed and in the process greatly disappointed my uncle and others in my family.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pannvalan Ji,

I told you my premise:

"Closed endogamous social groups invariably develop more susceptibility towards genetic induced diseases and so are deleterious".

A very simple concept really, nay actually a truth based on modern genetic research.

I also told you that denying this is against the established scientific truths.

Yet, you continue to argue against the premise despite these evidences (which you seem to agree with). So, it seems to me that you are arguing from an emotional viewpoint.

I would not spend time arguing like this with anyone, but since you have been a valuable member here, I owe it to you to show why you are wrong. My comments are in 'blue'

1. In case of marriages within the same community, that is geographically widespread
and having diverse cultural practices, but linked by an invisible thread, the threat
of congenital disorders seems only remote.
Can you cite any scientific study to support this conclusion? This is why I have cited the Ashkanazy Jews, who originated in Romania and have been dispersed geographically over centuries, and have moved in to the 'new' world (USA) as well. Yet they retain all the genetic diseases. You are wrong on this.

2. Scientists merely say that there is only greater tendency- not absolute certainty -
to contract genetically contracted disorders/diseases, in case of marriages within
consanguineous groups.

(Idhu nadanthe theerum endru avargal solluvathillai; ippadi nigazhvatharku vaippugal adhigam
endru mattume avargal solgirargal).
Of course. If you have read my response to you carefully, you would have read this: "Science says that inter marrying within a closed social/ethnic/social groups will result in bad genes being passed down. That will result in the diseases above mentioned by you being passed on to the progeny in increasing probabilities".

So, then you agree with my premise that there is an increased probability of genetic disorders in the progeny of a closed social group. Seems to me here, you have agreed with my premise!

3. If one talks about the negative effects of such marriages, the positive effects
also must be talked about, as extensively. Are there any scientific studies done
to verify and measure the positive effects too, to the satisfaction and acceptance
of most of the scientific community?
There are no 'genetic' positive effects in the closed social group. But if you argue about increased IQs, athleticism etc., may I remind you that they are social not 'genetic' positives. Grooming a 'superior' race is not a positive effect.

By the way, when it is shown that there are bad effects on the organism medically, what positive effects can be talked about in this context? That a person who died prematurely of cancer had an IQ of 200?

4. It is quite unfair to compare Parsis community with ours, for the following reasons.

(a) Our community population is quite larger, as compared to theirs.
(b) The Parsis population is dwindling, whereas ours is growing in terms of
numbers.
(c) We are more liberal than them, in many respects.
Why do you discard my example of the Ashkanazy Jews conveniently? They have more population than ours.

By the way, how are we more 'liberal' than the Parsis, and if so, how does this affect this closed social group issue?

5. There are studies, which refute the links between Tamil Brahmins and the other
social groups of Central Asia, in the known history. In other words, the link that
you talk about may have occurred more than 10,000 years ago and do you mean
to say, the genetic transmission keeps on occurring on a set pattern for
thousands and thousands of years, without a break, without a change?
What other genetic studies? I am talking about genetic prototyping. I think you are confusing this with the Aryan Invasion Theory. I am talking about scientific genetic studies on TN people conducted by geneticists. Genes do not lie.

6. Similarity is not equivalent to identical nature. A middle aged male adult and his
friend's young son have several things in common like some interests and
preferences and certain other beahaviour. With this, can one rush to conclude
something rubbish?
Seems to me you are talking rubbish without knowing the facts. Please read the follwing which is a scientific paper:
HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India | Human Biology | Find Articles at BNET

7. Finally, can anyone guarantee that in the case of inter-caste marriages, congenital disorders
are ruled out?
Sir, my premise is not about establishing that marrying a NB will guarantee a progenie free of congenital defects. My premise was that a closed endogamous social group will have increased genetic disorders over time. See, how you have taken my premise and ask me to prove something that matters only to support your emotional stand?

However, let me answer you this way: One of the ways to reduce the chances for these genetic disorders is to chhose partners that are far removed genetically from one.

8. Also, we cannot take into account only the experiments done by the scientists -
physicians, biologists, bio-chemists et al - but negating or not taking cognisance
of the studies done by sociologists, psychologists, cultural anthropologists and the
like altogether, simply because of the reason their studies are not 100% scientific.
It amounts to rejecting all the social and demographic studies that have been
validated by the westerners themselves.
I never said that the studies done by these other disciplines are not valid. I was pointing out to you that I was citing research from a hard science to support my premise. If you have any contrary information to refute this from any other scientific discipline, please do so. I will gladly change my premise.

9. I also request you not to be totally guided or misguided by western research
studies, as they only provide significant pointers, but not conclusive proof.
Sir, what does 'western' research got to do with genetic research? Genetics is a recognized hard science discipline. How do the conclusions by it are not 'conclusive'? What are you talking about? That stuff proven by hard science should not be taken as conclusive, especially if they are done in the west?

Sir, seems to me you have an agenda.


N.B: I refused to marry my cousin precisely for the same reasons what you have
listed and in the process greatly disappointed my uncle and others in my family.

Again, please do not argue that science supports your pet theory without knowing the underlying facts. Please say that your theory is good on the basis of culture and sociology.

I am very sorry to say that you have taken a very unsupportable position.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Genes have no caste nor gothras. There are characteristic determinents, like indels, in various studies that can provide clues to the place of origin of a particular inherited pattern.

When a population group seperates out from a larger group and practices endogamy for several centuries, that particular group accumulates certain allele frequencies over generations. That does not mean that they are uniquely different or unrelated to other populations.

Brahmins of tamil nadu have diverse origins. There have been very many studies in the recent years that throw light on various patterns. According to one study, Iyers have greater diversity than Iyengars.

In case of gotras, things are highly debatable. Depending on the study and the sample set, if a particular set of tamil brahmins do not show affinity to bhargavas of UP, that could mean that either the bhargavas of UP or the tamil brahmin samples studied are not biological desendents of brighu as claimed: HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India - page 5 | Human Biology

An other study showed that brahmins of UP are no different from muslims. It may be possible that during the mughal times, 'forced population replacement' might have occured. This, and many more factors, make me feel that the whole concept of varna by birth in the present times is a hollow bogus concept.

It may also be possible that priests of various village temples, or migrating groups of people, sanskritized themselves to be called brahmins in various parts of india. Many people turned land owners in the post-mughal times and the colonial times. With sufficient wealth, it is very much possible for a group to claim a varna stand for itself. Adopting an other culture is not always rare.

All this apart, despite diversity, indian communities have been mating on the lines of sub-caste, and even sub-sub-caste; with an attempt to create highly endogamous groups, controlling gene inflow and outflow, but not always succeeding in it.

In the case of jews, who have a higher incidence of genetic disorders in europe than other europeans, very many studies have been done / undertaken. Since jews are matrilineal (a child is a jew if the mother is a jew), it has helped them decide the course of begetting healthier offsprings after genetic counselling. In case both parents carry the same chromosomal abberations / familial disorders, jewish women have been undergoing artificial insemination from non-jewish men, after a screening process.

Am not sure its possible to compare jews to tambrams, since almost all ashkenazis supposedly have a common place of origin and possibly have diff cultural sensibilites than indians (i do not think traditional indians will be willing to accept artificial insemination as easily as jews).

The future is about personalized medicine and designer medicines and vaccines. Let a brahmin not be surprised if his genetic profile is the same as a southeast asian, a european, an arab, an afghan pathan, a so-called 'lowcaste' tamil, a denotified tribal guy, an adivasi, or any other human on earth.

The world is one family.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear KRS,
I beg to reiterate my views that are contrary to yours. My detailed reply is given beneath.
You say:
"Closed endogamous social groups invariably develop more susceptibility towards genetic induced diseases and so are deleterious".
I say:
1. I do not feel that Tamil Brahmins are fit to be described as closed groups.

2.They are not endogamous either. ‘Endogamy’ means ‘the custom forbidding marriage outside one’s own group’. In other words, it is a practice of promoting ‘inbreeding’. Can anyone say with certainty that all Tamil Brahmins or most of them encourage and practice ‘inbreeding’?

If somebody wants definition for ‘inbreeding’ also, it is ‘pollination between two flowers on the same plant’; ‘the union of female gametes’. All these do not happen in Tamil Brahmin families, wherever they live.

3.Again, what is a ‘group’? A number of people or things together.
Here, the word ‘together’ means either viewed or taken together. Can all the Tamil Brahmins be bracketed in one group, this way?
You say:
A very simple concept really, nay actually a truth based on modern genetic research. I also told you that denying this is against the established scientific truths.
I say:
“Multi-factor Theories”, being the best accepted today, acknowledge that both genetic-biological factors and the influence of life experiences as the causes for one’s susceptibility to certain disorders. Here also, it is pertinent to quote the results of a group of studies done with identical twins and fraternal twins with reference to ‘schizophrenia’.
In this group of studies, the concordance rates amongst the identical twins ranged from 16% to 60% and amongst the fraternal twins, the concordance rates ranged from 4% to 18%.
One noteworthy aspect of these studies is, they were conducted in different countries, in a time span of 9 years.
My question is:
1.What is the probability of any woman giving birth to ‘twins’? Then, what is the probability of any woman giving birth to identical twins? It may be less than 2 out of 1000.

2.In other cases, the researchers say, only the unlucky children inherit congenital disorders like ‘autism’, ‘schizophrenia’ etc. (However, we are unable to point out decisively the probability of such unlucky children).

3.If one asks me, I would say Tamil Brahmins of today are not very keen about holding consanguineous marriages. On the other hand, most of them are very particular to avoid them, not fearing genetic problems the children may get, but because of a wide variety of reasons. (My understanding of consanguineous marriages is different from that of yours).

4.Such being the case, why should we unnecessarily panic and raise an alarm, when the probability rate will be too low or even negligible, in case of non-consanguineous marriages, taking place in Tamil Brahmin community?
You say:
Yet, you continue to argue against the premise despite these evidences (which you seem to agree with). So, it seems to me that you are arguing from an emotional viewpoint.
I say:
You have not answered my counter question – “In case of inter-caste marriages, what is the guarantee that the probability of congenital disorders will be very less? Is there any study conducted in this regard?”
Without knowing a convincing answer, how can we argue the other way, with total confidence and with 100% certainty?
You say:
I would not spend time arguing like this with anyone, but since you have been a valuable member here, I owe it to you to show why you are wrong.
I say:
You have every right to say/do that.
You say:
Again, please do not argue that science supports your pet theory without knowing the underlying facts. Please say that your theory is good on the basis of culture and sociology.
I say:
I do not have any ‘pet theories’. Whatever I have presented herein were from what I read from the sources known to me. These sources have nothing to do with culture, but include sociology among other fields.
You say:
I am very sorry to say that you have taken a very unsupportable position.
I say:
I am also sorry, if I am unable to convince you. This inability on my part may be construed as anything, as one pleases.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S: A humble request. Please do not address me ‘Sir’ or ‘ji’. Simply address me by my forum name.​

 

[pannvalan]

For the purpose of other members -

'Ashkenazim Jews' are the Polish and German Jews, as distinguished from the Spanish and Portuguese Jews.

 

[happyhindu]

All Indian castes and tribes are endogamous groups that promote inbreeding (that is, they promote mating within members of the same sub-caste or the same tribe).

Yes, not only tambrams but all castes and tribes of india have encouraged and practiced inbreeding.

However, it seems that all present day castes are derived from an admixute of older tribes (who very likely formed the older caste system). And tehrefore each sub-caste itself carries some amount of diversity within its members.

War events, and natural calamities are other reasons why populations cannot remain endogamous.

Am not sure if i can explain the concept of 'having diversity but practicing endogamy' - its tuf to put into writing.

In choosing examples, it may be a better idea to leave psychiatric disease occurence out, since sufficient research has not been done in that field. Better to chose other genetically inherited disorders such as cancers that have been studied a lot more in depth.

Also, the peculiarites of indian castes are peculiar to indians alone (might not be a good idea to compare them with any other ethnic set).

Though Ashkenazis are considered german jews, its subject to debate if they can be called ethic germans. Jews generally i think are considered more middle-eastern in origin rather than european.

 

[happyhindu]

Wish to put out something personal.

A few years back i developed a form of colitis characterized by food allergies, frequent flare-ups, etc... underwent tests which revealed it to be a genetically linked inherited condition. Found that its a condition common in ashkenazis.

For a long time i thot, well maybe some ancestor of mine might have 'you-know-what' with some middle-eastern muslim or jew. It, however, took me on an interesting trail.

After being told that i come from an india-specific clade with no probable recent gene inflow, i ended up doing quite a bit of digging.

Its very much possible that some people who make up the current caste groups of dhangeru (dhangars / kurubas?) polisettys , kapus, etc were originally from the regions of around gujarat (possibly like khazars or gujjars or jats, etc??) with deep ancestry from the central asian afghan plains. And it might also be possible that some members of the ashkenazi ethnic group actually originate from the same central asian plains (which one can call as old india). Have volunteered for deep ancestry links with a research group. Lets see what the outcome is.

 

[pannvalan]

1. The converse need not be true in all the cases, all the times.

2. While analyzing the 'cause-effect' in any area, the effect alone will not point to
one single cause.

3. If it is understood that way, it has its equal in the example I had quoted in another
context.

A person had fever. He thought what could be its probable cause, he just
remembered that he ate 4 puris for breakfast that day. With that he concluded,
'whoever eats 4 puris for breakfast will get fever'.

 

[happyhindu]

A person had fever. He thought what could be its probable cause, he just
remembered that he ate 4 puris for breakfast that day. With that he concluded,
'whoever eats 4 puris for breakfast will get fever'.

Not sure if this was in reference to my above post on deep ancestry links...anyways, just mentioning this:

one cannot conclude anything as a matter of one's own convenience, subjective ability to dig for info or one's own preference.

Its better to get validated results from medical research groups.