Is prayers alone - without jnana enough for salvation

[renuka]

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Blindly doing japa of "Mara-mara" is not going to give you salvation.

Dear Prasadji,

I refer to your word Blindly.. you see it's we humans that feel its blind.
After many years of reading books on spirituality I have come to feel that we can never really never know the Mind of God.

What might seem Blindly to us might be nectar to God.
So we might really never know what is actually needed finally.

 

[Gadhisunu8]

The rituals have their purpose. In the BS Adi Shankara says that the entry into Brahma Jij~nAsa should have been preceded by Dharma jij~nASa that is the study of Jaimini Sutras. But the Bhakti system or karma-yoga almost makes it meaningless to even make an effort to "know". Further, the need for setting one's behavior right before one is deeply melted in Bhakti is not emphasized. I have seen closely one who is very truly involved in Bhakti did not get the "knowledge" that was automatically expected of a concerted effort for j~nAna. A mere Scriptural study without making it a part of one's character is only intellectual gymnastics. Like it is the exercise of one's capacity to understand the "words" and "logic". When I use the English word knowledge I generally enclose them in quotes to mean it is not the same as "knowing" through the senses and Intellect. Brahman can never be "known" this way.

 

[renuka]

The rituals have their purpose. In the BS Adi Shankara says that the entry into Brahma Jij~nAsa should have been preceded by Dharma jij~nASa that is the study of Jaimini Sutras. But the Bhakti system or karma-yoga almost makes it meaningless to even make an effort to "know". Further, the need for setting one's behavior right before one is deeply melted in Bhakti is not emphasized. I have seen closely one who is very truly involved in Bhakti did not get the "knowledge" that was automatically expected of a concerted effort for j~nAna. A mere Scriptural study without making it a part of one's character is only intellectual gymnastics. Like it is the exercise of one's capacity to understand the "words" and "logic". When I use the English word knowledge I generally enclose them in quotes to mean it is not the same as "knowing" through the senses and Intellect. Brahman can never be "known" this way.

Dear sir,

I agree with you here that everything is in a step wise manner any everyone goes through sometimes in a span of many births.

I have read before that some individuals are more comfortable with Jnana Kanda cos they have been through Karma Kanda in a previous life.

 

[sarma-61]

'salvage' means ordinarily, the act of saving something (eg. a ship and/or its cargo) from peril (in the sea). From this, 'salvation' will mean saving something or some one from peril of any kind. In Christian Theology, this word 'salvation' means deliverance from the power and penalty of sin, or, redemption. Here, we are adopting this Christian concept to represent our Hindu idea of "mokṣa" or complete cessation from the cycle of births and deaths for a jiva.

I am told by elders that this mokṣa is not there for the asking, nor can it be achieved in just one life-time, however much one may strive and so it is irrelevant to discuss whether bhakti due to fear or greed alone is sufficient or whether jñāna is also necessary. As is evident from the story of the dharmavyādha, one should do one's duties diligently and brahmajñāna will come in its own time, in its own way.

But the so-called bhakti is not the method to brahmajñāna as told to me by elders; till we realize that சிற்சபையில் விளங்குகின்ற தெய்வம் அதே தெய்வம் (சிற்சபையில் விளங்குகின்ற = சித்தில் சபை கொண்டு வீற்றிருக்கும்) as per Ramalinga Adigalar, we cannot hope to get even near to brahmajñāna, nor mokṣa.

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

As I had mentioned in some other post earlier,you require to studythat atoms are indivisible, then learn that they are constituted of electrons, protons and neutrons and then a nucleus, then quantum mechanics and then particle physics and finally God particle, experimental research on which is currently going on. We can not jump like frogs and go straight to Particle physics. Similarly, we have to go through Karma Kanda to Upanishads through proper Gurus. What the great Gurus have condemned are about those who are stuck in rituals only or those who jump like frogs to Gnana Marga without being able to understand that Atman and Self are the same effulgent one and then " Na tatra Suryo Bhati...etc" and then say Tat Twam Asi. How many of us are really capable of that?
Regards, Ramanathan.

 

[renuka]

experimental research on which is currently going on. We can not jump like frogs and go straight to Particle physics. Similarly, we have to go through Karma Kanda to Upanishads through proper Gurus.

Dear sir,

I agree what you wrote that everyone has to go through each phase in a step wise manner.

When I read the word jump like frogs, I got reminded of this story.
This story shows the importance of Faith.


It is faith that works; faith in anything.

Frog curry… Someone cursed a sweeper, “Tapala curry”. She went for Sri Vidya initiation to an orthodox Namboodiri Brahmin in Kerala. Namboodiris will not even look at a woman who is of a low caste. She said, “Please teach me Sri Vidya.”

“Hey!” he said. He had to take bath for having seen her. “Tapala curry,” he said [in anger; ‘tapala’ means frog].

She thought, “This is the mantra of Sri Vidya.” But through the power of faith, “Tapalacurry” got transformed into “SakalaKreem”. “Tapala curry” became “SakalaKreem” by the power of faith itself.

And with such powers, she could walk on the waters. All the people said, “How? Where did you learn all this?” “Guru. Guru’s Upadesham,” she said.

They went to the Guru (and asked), “What have you taught?” “I have not taught anything,” he said.

He called the lady. “What have I taught?” “You told me ‘Tapala curry’, so I am saying it as ‘Sakala Kreem’, ‘Sakala Kreem’. Devi blessed me; I am walking on water.”

Then the Brahmana was ashamed because he could not walk on water. Faith works wonders. Intellectual argument is no good. What is wanted is sincerity, and it will come.

taken from

The Story of the Descent of Ganga to Earth

 

[renuka]

Here is a story of how a deaf-mute and illiterate Brahmana wrote the
Svapna-Vrndâvanâkhyâna.


The story was given briefly in a book I was reading today and I managed to find the same online.

It goes to show that Jnana can be conferred to a deserving candidate.


The Svapna-Vrndâvanâkhyâna was authored in a very special way. There was a deaf-mute and illiterate brâhmaNa, who served Sri Vadiraja Tirtha in menial ways. Years after Sri Vadiraja Tirtha's Brndâvana-pravesha, he appeared in the deaf-mute man's dreams over a period of several weeks, and gave him the Svapna-Vrndâvanâkhyâna. Every next day, the deaf-mute man would go to the pontiff of the Matha, and recite whatever he had heard in his dream encounter with Sri Vadiraja Tirtha the previous night. All that was written down, but could not be made sense of. Finally, many years later, the same man was reborn, and became a sanyâsi in Sri Vadiraja Tirtha's own line and came to head his Matha, and he then himself wrote an exposition on the Svapna-Vrndâvanâkhyâna that he had received previously. A fragment of the Svapna-Vrndâvanâkhyâna called the Anu-Vrndâvanâkhyâna is regularly recited by devotees of Srî Vâdirâja.

http://www.harekrishnablog.com/inde...ishnava-acharyas/351-sri-vadiraja-tirtha.html


Note: the deaf-mute person would be able to speak the next day after the dream..recite whatever he heard and then become deaf-mute again and this used to go on daily.

 

[guruvayurappan]

post7
dear sir !
you are correct .we take lot of efforts for those we care much.the actions take place without any inhibition and isspontaneous.
with regards,
guruvayurappan

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

In a layman's language, if one has faith on the God and has confidence that he will
succeed through his dedicated undisturbed prayers, he automatically develops a
knowledge as to how to worship HIM through his experiences.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[gajendra]

It is a misnomer that Bhakti is only the recital of namas,japa etc and visiting temples unless there is absolute love and devotion in one's own mind.Mind is like a monkey as everyone knows which can't concentrate on anything even for a minute as even if we are doing something it just meanders over several matters at the same time.Then how to tame the mind?This is the confusuion of even our sages as the same is such a difficult process.Even when visiting temples and concentrating the mind on the Deity the mind just moves on to other thoughts.So getting one pointedness is a great task.However due to practice stretching over years the mind can be contained to some extent.When the mind is fullkyon our control then there is nothing else to study and one gets Realisation of all that is going on in this
world mired in Maya.For that instead of concenrtaing on several forms of the One Godhead one has to learn to concentrate only on One Deity of his or her choice ,the deity can be from a temple ,even a human being of exhalted value or even anything which the mind loves can be taken as God is present everywhere though in theory it is ok as God can't be imagined as something in the form of air as the mind will reject the same and for thatpurpose only temples are built for better concentration.It is an arduous task to concentrate on one deity only as we visit eversomany temples and in those temples eversomany deities and we call each deity by the name it has been named and not otherwise.If this thought is removed and we call all the deities by our Ishta Devata there starts the basic lesson on Bhakthi.So we have to form a picture of our Ishta Devata in our mind and not from outside and try to concentrate as if the same devata that exists in our mind is the same we see in all temples or in other words we see no difference between a Devata inculcated in our mind different from what we see outside.When we adopt such methods and do poojas,dhyana,japa etc to the deity that is installed in our mind then slowly the power within us will start rising.Mind can always made to accept what we think always.If we think abt a particular matter constantly our mind also accepts the same without problem.
Hence we have to select an Ishta Devata whom we like very much and there is no difference between one and anther and we need not strictly go thru text books which may say so many things and so many stories but we stick to One Deity or Person in Mind and always concentrate on the same and after some months our mind will automatically accept our thoughts and there won't be any problem to move upward.Further Bakthi is only for Bakthis sake and not subject to any demand and if we are true whatever we require will automatically come even without ourselves asking.People go to temples and pray we will do this and that so as to get favours from the deities and that is absolutely ridiculous.God is not a commodity that can be purchased by bribery.A pure devotion is suffice that will make our life comfortable.If this process is continued for years thn we can see starnage things developing in our mind and we can see so many powers developing within ourselves and see many worlds which we see only in imaginary films and so many spiritual exp[eriences we get.I can vouch this authoritatively from personal experience.Still that shuld not be mistaken as of we have reached the peak.Those are only trials which will make us to take more interest and till we reach a time when we lose our mind getting absolved in the Universal mind and there is only One space without anything but the feeling of Bliss and I ness everywhere and the body is forgoptten and only mind consciousness prevail everywhere and that state is called samadhi.It may take several births and experiences to reach that state but a beginning can be made in this birth as if we are sowing a seed which will grow into a big tree over several births when properly nourished and nurtured.Why can't we take that attempt from now onwards if we have not started already?

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

It is just not on the forms of Deities alone but the disposition of our
minds which require to be concentrated and purified to the fullest extent.
We also should look as to whether we are of satwic or rajasic or tamasic
tendencies. Some resort to worship of evil spirits to practice certain bad
things against those people whom they have enmity or vengeance. But
Shrimad Bhagavadam clearly stresses that such modes of worship are not
advisable and the same thing is totally set aside.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear renuka ji !
thanks for posting the KOKKU endru ninaithayo Koganava ? story in tamil
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear renuka !
you have rightly said the necessary of practicing doctor & research doctors . during my service i also gave feed back for posting of instructors in training institute with practical experience of >5 years. now in tamilnadu many engg. college employ fresh graduates as their lecturers which degrade the quality of technical education.
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear madam !
i am able to understand why the proverb
oomai kanavu kandar pola .
(some may say it in other way also )
guruvayurappan

 

[murari1970]

Dear all

I am new to this forum. I was going thro various threads and amazed at the depth of the discussion and the knowledge of the members. I am novice in spiritual matters and thought that i could learn a lot from you people.

Reg. this thread, what came to my mind is this:
Bhakthi needs a personalised god as bhakthi means paying obeisance or love to another one. whereas gnana do not necessarily need a personalised god and it can dwelve on abstract terms also like what is called in spirituality - nirguna brahman.

Just I shared my thoughts. If I am wrong, pls enlighten me.

 

[renuka]

Dear all

I am new to this forum. I was going thro various threads and amazed at the depth of the discussion and the knowledge of the members. I am novice in spiritual matters and thought that i could learn a lot from you people.

Reg. this thread, what came to my mind is this:
Bhakthi needs a personalised god as bhakthi means paying obeisance or love to another one. whereas gnana do not necessarily need a personalised god and it can dwelve on abstract terms also like what is called in spirituality - nirguna brahman.

Just I shared my thoughts. If I am wrong, pls enlighten me.

Dear sir,

I get your point but even in Jnana we need a point of focus.
Acquiring Jnana is not actually gaining knowledge alone its actually getting enlightenment.

Ok lets give ourselves a simple example..
Just say we want to learn how to swim.
Firstly we need someone to guide us.
Then we need water to swim in and finally we have to master the technique.
Once we become an expert swimmer we gain full control of our strokes and movements.
So we can say that we have acquired the knowledge of swimming.

Same with Jnana..we need a person to guide us...a suitable environment,practical hands on approach and finally mastering the subject.

But in spirituality, Jnana is NOT all about bookish knowledge or endless hours of debate.
True Jnana is supposed to remove the Veil of Ignorance that clouds our intellect.

I can safely say at every step of acquiring Jnana, Shraddha and Bhakti is needed.

We tend to view Bhakti and Jnana at either end of the spectrum but in reality I feel it's interrelated.

It takes a lot of Bhakti to acquire Jnana and a lot of Jnana to acquire Bhakti.

A person might be illiterate but if he has the question "Who Am I "in his mind..that itself is Jnana.
Jnana is not always about answers but most of the while about relevant questions.
Question yourself and answers will arise from within.

 

[murari1970]

Dear Renukaji,

It's my privilege to get your reply for my post. Namaskarams. I have read your posts and replies here which are profound in knowledge and humility. I hope that let me also gain something from you.

As you said, jnana is mostly inward looking, the point of focus being self. The point of focus here - self - is not the physical body but the higher consciousness.

To attain jnana, bhakthi is essential and makes the path easier, but the vice-versa need not be necessary. It's my humble view. Bhakthi is normally an emotional state of affection and love towards a third person - GOD.

I think the moot point here is - WHO AM I? and by realising this, the ultimate truth gets revealed, then nothing is required to be done - bhakthi, yoga etc.

Hope that I am relevant in this thread.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renukaji,

It's my privilege to get your reply for my post. Namaskarams. I have read your posts and replies here which are profound in knowledge and humility. I hope that let me also gain something from you.

As you said, jnana is mostly inward looking, the point of focus being self. The point of focus here - self - is not the physical body but the higher consciousness.

To attain jnana, bhakthi is essential and makes the path easier, but the vice-versa need not be necessary. It's my humble view. Bhakthi is normally an emotional state of affection and love towards a third person - GOD.

I think the moot point here is - WHO AM I? and by realising this, the ultimate truth gets revealed, then nothing is required to be done - bhakthi, yoga etc.

Hope that I am relevant in this thread.

Dear sir,

Bhakthi is not an emotional state as most often thought.
Ok I will explain..when we are EMOTIONAL the intellect is actually clouded and NOT focused.
When emotions take over we might not be able to think well and might be prone to misjudgments.

Bhakti is not emotional but steady Bhava.. the feeling of love for God and intellect is Eka Grata(One Pointedness).


Let's picture Hanuman..He is epitome of Bhakti..would you say He is emotional?
No isn't it.
He was devoted to Lord Rama and at time of need He was always steady minded right from searching for Seeta and bringing the Sanjeevini mountain.

So never think that Bhakti is emotional.
True Bhakti is a very steady state of mind.

I beg to differ in your opinion that Bhakti is not needed to acquire Jnana.

Sir if we are looking for bookish knowledge then Bhakti is NOT required.
But true Jnana is enlightenment and that requires Bhakti.


Most of the while we are confusing Jnana as being just acquiring bookish knowledge without any feelings towards God.

The confusion arises partly becos society is so trained to think that Rituals are essential for Bhakti and a Jnaani most of the times DOES NOT preform rituals.

Rituals are a practical visible hands on method for a person to convey his love for God and so is meditation and the pursue of knowledge.

Frankly speaking I feel there is no 100% Bhakti or 100% Jnana state.
It is an amalgam of both that makes a perfect devotee.

 

[sarang]

The safe bet is to rely on what scriptures say and on the teaching of a 'realised soul' who is chosen as the guru by anyone. One touch of sri ramakrishna on narendra's head was enough to transform him as vivekananda.

For intellectual discussions, one has to become proficient in religious literature.

 

[murari1970]

Respected Madam

Reg., Bhakthi not emotional and when you are emotional the intellect is clouded.....
We are talking abbout bhakthi towards God and not towards any other person. In this case where is the question of intellect. You cannot use your intellect for being devoted towards god. It is only surrender, in real terms. Clouding of intellect does not arise here. Practically, if you see in case of bhakthi, normally it is directed towards the beauty, gracefulness, power and other attributes of the god. It is evident in so many hymns of Azhwars and others. In many cases, they treated the deity as their wife or husband or son or parents. Such is their love towards their god. You cannot brush aside completely that bhakthi is not emotional. Reg. steady state of mind, it depends upon the perception of thhe people. While in extreme devotion, there were instances, people behave in a maddening way, but that is only to the outside viewer, but the bhaktha is so focussed with thhe deity, that he does not know what he is doing.

Pls go thro my post. I have never said bhakthi is not required for gnana. Bhakthi makes the job easier for the sadhaka to atttain gnana. You can take the case of Sri Ramakrishna who was such an ardent devotee of Goddess Kali. When he was initiated into meditation by his guru to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, he was not able to do so, since the image of kali was always in his mind. Felt irritated by this, his guru took a piece of glass and pierced his forehead and angrily instructed Sri Ramakrishna to get out of his mental delusion towards Goddess kali. He immediately cut assunder the Kali's image from his mind and attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi immediately. Later his guru said, it took 40 years for him to attain this state, where as Sri Ramakrishna attained this state instantaneusly. This was possible only because of his bhakthi which purified his mind already and made easier his path for attaining gnanna.

But in the case of Swami Vivekananda, the illustrious disciple ofSri Ramakrishna, the case is completely reversed. He was never a bhaktha / devotee and attained gnana. But only very few can achieve this.

While referring, gnana, I agree with you it is not bookish knowledge. It is self-realisation.

 

[murari1970]

Dear sarang sir,

Namaskaram. As you said, for intellectual discussions, knowledge of religious literature is essential. But our aim shall be not to win or lose in the discussions per se. Actually, spirituality is such a simple subject, which is made so complicated by the so called intellectual discussions of our illustrious predeccessorrs by interpreting the religious scriptures in their own style. Nothing is more evident for this than the acrimonious debate among the 3 schools of thought - advaita, vishistadvaita and dvaita.

I think today we are living in a better world, where people are slowly realising the wastefulness of these discussions and trying to seek the ultimate truth with a ting of scientific pursuit

 

[sarang]

There is no acrimonius debate among the three systems and other systems which have accepted the three majors.

The ultimate truth can be realised with a tinge of scientific pursuit is misleading and diverting statement. Some scientists believe in god and some don't. The tools of the trade are different.

Dear sarang sir,

Namaskaram. As you said, for intellectual discussions, knowledge of religious literature is essential. But our aim shall be not to win or lose in the discussions per se. Actually, spirituality is such a simple subject, which is made so complicated by the so called intellectual discussions of our illustrious predeccessorrs by interpreting the religious scriptures in their own style. Nothing is more evident for this than the acrimonious debate among the 3 schools of thought - advaita, vishistadvaita and dvaita.

I think today we are living in a better world, where people are slowly realising the wastefulness of these discussions and trying to seek the ultimate truth with a ting of scientific pursuit

 

[renuka]

For intellectual discussions, one has to become proficient in religious literature.

Dear sir,

This is exactly why people leave Hinduism and Convert.
We should not have this approach in religion.
Every question from anyone learned or not should have an answer.
We cannot become scholars over night...some of us in forum are scholars but most of us are not.

We can also learn from each other by sharing our thoughts and experiences.

I feel we should encourage each other to have discussions.
Cos only then we will have the drive to read and learn.

We Hindus need to be a bit more open in approach in religion.

No Non Hindu leader will ever tell a person wanting to know about religion that

"For intellectual discussions, one has to become proficient in religious literature"​

That will totally kill the desire to pursue any further enquiry and people get the wrong impression that Hinduism is a difficult religion to understand and leave for other religions which are customer friendly.

It's really high time we Hindus change our mindset.
We should welcome any question and share with each other however little we know.


​

 

[renuka]

Respected Madam

Reg., Bhakthi not emotional and when you are emotional the intellect is clouded.....
We are talking abbout bhakthi towards God and not towards any other person. In this case where is the question of intellect. You cannot use your intellect for being devoted towards god. It is only surrender, in real terms. Clouding of intellect does not arise here. Practically, if you see in case of bhakthi, normally it is directed towards the beauty, gracefulness, power and other attributes of the god. It is evident in so many hymns of Azhwars and others. In many cases, they treated the deity as their wife or husband or son or parents. Such is their love towards their god. You cannot brush aside completely that bhakthi is not emotional. Reg. steady state of mind, it depends upon the perception of thhe people. While in extreme devotion, there were instances, people behave in a maddening way, but that is only to the outside viewer, but the bhaktha is so focussed with thhe deity, that he does not know what he is doing.

Pls go thro my post. I have never said bhakthi is not required for gnana. Bhakthi makes the job easier for the sadhaka to atttain gnana. You can take the case of Sri Ramakrishna who was such an ardent devotee of Goddess Kali. When he was initiated into meditation by his guru to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, he was not able to do so, since the image of kali was always in his mind. Felt irritated by this, his guru took a piece of glass and pierced his forehead and angrily instructed Sri Ramakrishna to get out of his mental delusion towards Goddess kali. He immediately cut assunder the Kali's image from his mind and attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi immediately. Later his guru said, it took 40 years for him to attain this state, where as Sri Ramakrishna attained this state instantaneusly. This was possible only because of his bhakthi which purified his mind already and made easier his path for attaining gnanna.

But in the case of Swami Vivekananda, the illustrious disciple ofSri Ramakrishna, the case is completely reversed. He was never a bhaktha / devotee and attained gnana. But only very few can achieve this.

While referring, gnana, I agree with you it is not bookish knowledge. It is self-realisation.

Dear sir,

One important thing we have to remember that both Ramakrishna Paramahansa and Swami Vivekananda were Saptha Rishis born in human form to guide us by role play.
So technically they hardly can be compared to the rest of us.

I understand what you mean as bhakti when people behave as in a so called manner that might even resemble insanity.
This again you will have to remember that most of high order Bhaktas are actually Jeevan Muktas and Jeevan Muktas are liberated while living and its their Prarabdha Karma which is acting and they are not at all bound by any actions they preform.

It is a known fact that the outward appearance of a Jeevan Mukta and an insane or ignorant person might outwardly resemble each other but the Jeevan Mukta is in TOTAL CONTROL of the situation in his ONE POINTEDNESS MIND.

That is what I was talking about..what which OUTWARDLY APPEARS EMOTIONAL to the world is actually a series of very focus thought waves.

The emotional states experience by most of us humans are where the mind is in a state of volition.

The hormones released during any emotional situation is the same even when the emotions are directed toward another person or towards a higher entity or even towards God.
Ever heard of the feel good hormones?

Feel good hormones like Dopamine,Serotonin and Endorphins are the feel good hormones that make us feel happy and satisfied.

These hormones are the ones that make us want to perform a particular act that makes us happy.
In other words we get addicted to a particular act that gives us bliss and happiness.

Yes ..some of us are even addicted to God and have this maddening desire to seek the truth.
At the beginning we are driven by these feelings and hormones and finally when we realize WE ARE NOT THE BODY only then enlightenment dawns on us and the Bliss felt is of the SAT CHIT ANANDA kind.

We have 5 Koshas to go through before we reach the Anandamaya Kosha.

The Annamaya Kosha is our physical body..that is where we feel the Dopamine,Serotonin and Endorphin effect when we think of anything that makes us happy.

Pranamaya Kosha is an Kosha of Prana(negatively charged electrons suffused with Chaitanya) and acts as bridge between the mind and body.

Next we have the Manomaya Kosha(which is the Mind sheath) which receives the input from the physical body and the senses.

Then we have the Vijnanamaya Kosha(the intellectual sheath) where Viveka plays an important role.
Viveka is the discrimination faculty to know right from wrong.
To develop Viveka one need conditioning in thoughts ,words and deed.

This is where various religion disciplines like Japa,Rituals,Dhyana etc play an important role in shaping the Viveka Faculty.

Finally we have the Anandamaya Kosha(Bliss Sheath) where we experience PURE BLISS without the need of any sensory input and the mind is an Steady State known as Sama(Equal) Dhi(Intellect) SAMADHI.


Frankly speaking Hinduism is a very step wise religion which is very scientific.
We humans have made the mistake of separating Science from Philosophy and Religion.
We should not try to see both at the either end of the spectrum for a good understanding of Sanatha Dharma.

Keep up the discussion..nice discussing with you.

BTW I would beg to differ about your line

:But in the case of Swami Vivekananda, the illustrious disciple ofSri Ramakrishna, the case is completely reversed. He was never a bhaktha / devotee and attained gnana.

Swami Vivekananda was one of the most focused person ever known in history.
He was totally dedicated to SELF.
SELF=BRAHMAN.
That is the Ultimate Bhakta.

 

[sarang]

You have thoroughly misunderstood my post. Hinduism is not like abrahamic religions; in those religions there is no scope for any discussion; one must obey at all costs.

Sanatana dharma spans all areas of human activity. I cannot argue with you on issues of medicines, diagnostics; a doctor cannot engage in discussions with research microbiologist unless the doctor learns microbiology or elevates himself to his level for discussions or dissensions. One can be a good doctor without knowledge in areas of medicines, compositions or molecular structure. In christianity one is a sinner if he is not baptised and, in islam, an infidel and an inferior specimen, if not a muslim.

For one to engage in discussions on advaita, visishtadvaita or dvaita or pushti marg, one has to learn the terminology, concepts, nyaya, tarka and a host of other disciplines. 'intellectual' does not mean one has to be intelligent. If the word 'intellectual' gives a offensive twist, it can be dispensed with.

For deeper discussions, one has to become proficient in religious literature.

All the four mahavakyas have been interpreted differently by the three acharyas. What I meant was, engaging in such discussions is quite different from what we practice - rituals, bhakti, temple visits, transcendental meditation or art of living.

Dear sir,

This is exactly why people leave Hinduism and Convert.
We should not have this approach in religion.
Every question from anyone learned or not should have an answer.
We cannot become scholars over night...some of us in forum are scholars but most of us are not.

We can also learn from each other by sharing our thoughts and experiences.

I feel we should encourage each other to have discussions.
Cos only then we will have the drive to read and learn.

We Hindus need to be a bit more open in approach in religion.

No Non Hindu leader will ever tell a person wanting to know about religion that

That will totally kill the desire to pursue any further enquiry and people get the wrong impression that Hinduism is a difficult religion to understand and leave for other religions which are customer friendly.

It's really high time we Hindus change our mindset.
We should welcome any question and share with each other however little we know.


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