Is prayers alone - without jnana enough for salvation

[N.R.Ranganathan]

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Dear sri Raghy,

I got your message. sri Gopalakrishna Bharathi wrote ' ayye, meththa kadinam '
in Nandanar. When this was read, Bhagawan Ramana exclaimed ' ayye, meththa
sulabham.' It is easy. He asked the devotees assembled there - what is the
difficulty in knowing your Self ? Self-enquiry is enough. Go deep and you wil find
it . But as you say, effort is needed.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Dear Mr.Raghy,

Effort is needed of course. But the same must be dropped at some point of
time. Drop the effort and along with it drop yourself. You will be able to
see the Light. When you drop your self and ego, where are you to say
something or anything about your experience. Just like the rivers merging
wiith the sea losing their identity, you do not come back and say something
about it. You are not there. This is explained in Kenopanishad and
Mundaka upanishad. This is what is meant by kandavar vindilar. If you say
you know it, you dont know. If you know you are silent. Words cant
express the bliss you experience.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

..Vegetarianism is one of the tenets of Ahimsa but I do not really think God is going to judge anyone on his diet alone.

That is my point all the time. If there is God, God would not be judging at all. None of the actions would be judged. I help the residents ( actually patients; but we never use that word) like me to cook. I don't really cook, but direct them to cook at the last crucial minutes, take over and complete the cooking. They have already requested to hold a session this week-end too. Why am I mentioning it here? Well, their favourite is meat, that too beef. Here I am, help to cook a great beef cuisine. I don't even taste it; but I pay all the attention to bring the best out of it.

vegetarian or non-vegetarian diet, who cares? Let us say, I found out my grand child or child had few alcoholic drinks. Am i go to raise hell for that? No! Quite possibly I am going to chuckle about the situation and move on! Punishing the child won't even enter my mind. If a mere mortal like myself can be that easy going, how easy going would one expect a merciful God to be?

We always say Atman is different from the body. So, if I feed the body with regular doses of Jack daniels, how would it affect the soul? One may say, I may do something nasty while intoxicated; say, 100% guaranteed, I wouldn't do anything nasty, then what?

Positive karma or negative karma are all in our mind. I don't think we ever will be punished or rewarded for any of these karmas, that is if there is a God.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Dear Mr.Raghy,

One more thing. JK declares - Truth is a pathless land. You can reach IT by any
path. If you follow the absolutely right one, you reach there easily. Other routes
take a longer time and more effort is needed. But definitely you will reach.
It is a question of time.

Do not bother for the present whether the mukthi you get is Advaitic mukthi or
the one where you return back after enjoying the fruits of your Karma. Advaita
says the Jnani does not return, He is not bron again - na punaravartate.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Ranganathan, Greetings.

When you drop your self and ego, where are you to say
something or anything about your experience. Just like the rivers merging
wiith the sea losing their identity, you do not come back and say something
about it. You are not there. This is explained in Kenopanishad and
Mundaka upanishad. This is what is meant by kandavar vindilar. If you say
you know it, you dont know. If you know you are silent. Words cant
express the bliss you experience.

Very well said. I like the way you explained it. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

All are Brahman. If one realises this, there will be harmony. There is sarvatmabhava
as explained in BG.

With whom you will fight then ? Accusing others would mean accusing yourself.

 

[renuka]

One may say, I may do something nasty while intoxicated; say, 100% guaranteed, I wouldn't do anything nasty, then what?


Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

Most crimes are committed in a Sober State!!

 

[renuka]

All are Brahman. If one realises this, there will be harmony. There is sarvatmabhava
as explained in BG.

With whom you will fight then ? Accusing others would mean accusing yourself.

Dear sir,

I fully agree with what you wrote.
I wonder how many of you get this feeling about "everyone is ourself"
I get this feeling many times when I look at my husband.
I sometimes think "OMG I married my own self!"

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

We all do things and then try to justify them. When we do not try to justify we look for opportunities to do that. We may not be doing it to prove anything to any one because we dont need to prove anything to anyone else. But the self knows what we are doing and it is a witness to our indulgence and blunders. Now let us see what you said in your post #78:

You have said:

That is my point all the time. If there is God, God would not be judging at all. None of the actions would be judged. I help the residents ( actually patients; but we never use that word) like me to cook. I don't really cook, but direct them to cook at the last crucial minutes, take over and complete the cooking. They have already requested to hold a session this week-end too. Why am I mentioning it here? Well, their favourite is meat, that too beef. Here I am, help to cook a great beef cuisine. I don't even taste it; but I pay all the attention to bring the best out of it.

I agree with you. You did not kill those animals/fowls. You only handled the lifeless flesh of them. So you do not worry. Fine.

vegetarian or non-vegetarian diet, who cares? Let us say, I found out my grand child or child had few alcoholic drinks. Am i go to raise hell for that? No! Quite possibly I am going to chuckle about the situation and move on! Punishing the child won't even enter my mind. If a mere mortal like myself can be that easy going, how easy going would one expect a merciful God to be?

Dear friend, now you have raised the bar several notches. If I find my grand child drinking alcohol, i will be certainly worried. I wont be able to take it as casually as what you have suggested. Not because the child has gulped alcohol knowing that it is an intoxicant but because the child finds a need to go to such intoxicants to relieve itself of some burden. It is a symptom to something more deep and more dangerous. Punishing-no: but being merciful and easy going about it- also a firm no. I am not GOD. I find it quite strange to compare the mercy of God to the indulgence shown to a child by a careless grandfather. Sorry friend. I do not agree with you.

We always say Atman is different from the body. So, if I feed the body with regular doses of Jack daniels, how would it affect the soul? One may say, I may do something nasty while intoxicated; say, 100% guaranteed, I wouldn't do anything nasty, then what?

You do not keep lime juice in a brass vessel because both will be always in conflict. Hindu religion believes in Trigunas and also in the role played by food and drink in affecting these gunas. We certainly bother about what we put in because what comes out as behavior depends on the input. A christian friend of me once said they do not believe in this and so they eat anything. Only the output should be good he said. JD, CR, BPW, OMB or NB are all not satvik drinks. By taking Tamasik or Rajasik food and drink you are not doing any good to the atman, that is you.

Positive karma or negative karma are all in our mind. I don't think we ever will be punished or rewarded for any of these karmas, that is if there is a God.

This is the punch line. In one sentence all the search, all the painful pursuit, all the findings and all the efforts have been rubbished and thrown overboard. Please think about it.

You are a friend of me.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Raju,

This is the punch line. In one sentence all the search, all the painful pursuit, all the findings and all the efforts have been rubbished and thrown overboard. Please think about it.

Thanks for your detailed discussion. I am not rubbishing anything. Sincerely I think we will not be judged for any our karmas. If we did something nice, then we did it because we liked to do a nice thing; I don't really think we look for a reward for that. Similarly, if we did something not so nice, we don't really care about any punishment. Just look around us; there are so many persons involved in so many not so nicer deeds. The whole world is just balanced between those nice and not so nicer acts.

I may not be explaining myself very well; but I am not rubbishing anything.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

Your post #85 for reference:

Sincerely I think we will not be judged for any our karmas. If we did something nice, then we did it because we liked to do a nice thing; I don't really think we look for a reward for that. Similarly, if we did something not so nice, we don't really care about any punishment. Just look around us; there are so many persons involved in so many not so nicer deeds. The whole world is just balanced between those nice and not so nicer acts.

You have stated a major issue in the realm of metaphysics and philosophy so simply. Wow! I give below what Immanuel Kant, that all time Great German Philosopher, said about this in his great work "The critique of Practical Reason"(1788)

The ordinary moral consciousness perceives quite clearly that the ethical value of an action does not depend upon its external results, but upon the interior will which gives it rise. Hence it follows that only that action is moral which springs from duty or respect for moral law. Yielding to custom or to past experiences, however sublime, would not make an action moral. Morality therefore can not derive from a subordination to authority.

If you are interested in reading further please read the costly book in original from any library. There is a concise paperback edition by Rupa & Co which is edited by Julien Benda and this gives excerpts from great thinkers in a series called The Living Thoughts Library.

I UNDERSTAND.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

Your post #85 for reference:


You have stated a major issue in the realm of metaphysics and philosophy so simply. Wow! I give below what Immanuel Kant, that all time Great German Philosopher, said about this in his great work "The critique of Practical Reason"(1788)

The ordinary moral consciousness perceives quite clearly that the ethical value of an action does not depend upon its external results, but upon the interior will which gives it rise. Hence it follows that only that action is moral which springs from duty or respect for moral law. Yielding to custom or to past experiences, however sublime, would not make an action moral. Morality therefore can not derive from a subordination to authority.

If you are interested in reading further please read the costly book in original from any library. There is a concise paperback edition by Rupa & Co which is edited by Julien Benda and this gives excerpts from great thinkers in a series called The Living Thoughts Library.

I UNDERSTAND.

Cheers.

Dear Sri. Raju, Greetings.

You are way too polite.

Your appreciating my write up reminded me this -

கன்னா பின்னா தென்னா மன்னா,
உன் அப்பன் கோவில் பெருச்சாளி!

I just wrote something that came to my mind and you are finding metaphysics and philosophy in that! 'Wow!' to you! Thanks for the complement, but I don't really deserve it.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

For our lovely friends who are not well versed in written Tamizh, here is the explanation for post #87.

There was one very nice guy by the name X. He required money for an urgent, unexpected expense. He was very hesitant to borrow since he knew, he would not be able to pay that money back. One of his close friend by the name y, very good poet asked him to go to King's court and compose a poem and get some reward. Well, X was very nervous; he said to Y that he did not know how to compose poems. Y assured to accompany him and said to him ' say anything like " kanna pinna', I shall manage it for you!' So, X and Y went to the court. X got king's audience, Y went with him. X could find words .. he blurted out

கன்னா பின்னா தென்னா மன்னா,
உன் அப்பன் கோவில் பெருச்சாளி! ( kanna pinna thenna manna! un appan kovil peruchchali!)

King was getting angry... the whole court was stunned.. Y was cool.. he translated!

kanna pinna - after (King) Karna, ( that is known 'kodayali' after Karnan!)
thenna manna - One worthy of a king in whole of south! ( thenna - person belongs to south; manna - king)
un apaan - your faher ( Y explained, X had to use the word appan to rhyme with other words!)
ko vil - large bow!
peruchchali - periya yaali! ( great lion like ancient fearsome animal!) ( gist - your father who carried a great bow was equal to the fearsome great yali!)

King was very pleased and showered X with plenty gifts!

(I wrote some thing in #85 and Sri. Raju found it to have a 'Wow' factor! In reality, Sri. Raju is really great! His mind is tuned such metaphysics and philosophy, he could identify that even in as simple message! My respects to him).

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Nope..there is something called Prarabdha Karma that still has to be carried out.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

Only after exhausting his/her karmas one becomes attains mukhthy. After attaining that, there can't be any more 'prarabdha karma' left. In the case of a jeevan mukhtan, he/she would accumalate more karmas in the life as jeevan mukhtan. How would they get rid of the prarabdham they accumalate during the life as a jeevan mukhtan? As a jeevan mukhtan, they would collect lots and lots of positive karmas even well after their death. In other words, they would keep collecting prarabdham.... their cycle wouldn't come to an end. Doesn't sound right to me.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

Only after exhausting his/her karmas one becomes attains mukhthy. After attaining that, there can't be any more 'prarabdha karma' left. In the case of a jeevan mukhtan, he/she would accumalate more karmas in the life as jeevan mukhtan. How would they get rid of the prarabdham they accumalate during the life as a jeevan mukhtan? As a jeevan mukhtan, they would collect lots and lots of positive karmas even well after their death. In other words, they would keep collecting prarabdham.... their cycle wouldn't come to an end. Doesn't sound right to me.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

I am quite sure of this....I have read about Jeevan Muktas.
You see its like this..Jeevan Mukti is a Eureka Moment in someones life.
It strikes a person when He has become Self Realized.
There is no more Sanchita and Agami Karma for this person.
But the Prabadha(current ongoing karma) which kicked started this present birth is still going till it gets exhausted.

Its like this..like when we are changing the IV fluid to a new bottle.. we disconnect the old bottle and place a new bottle.
But in the IV drip set a little amount of the old IV fluid say some few ml will be present in along the line isn't it?

Only after that old fluid has flown into the veins can the new fluid flow.

So same way..Jeevan Mukti is a newly confered state..The Prarabdha has to flow and finish it course before a Jeevan Mukta can exit the world.
Till then he lives like anyone else sometimes even somewhat weird but he does not accumulate anymore Karma..good or bad.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

.....You see its like this..Jeevan Mukti is a Eureka Moment in someones life.....

I was going to write this reply to Sri. Ranganathan. But I am writing this to you.

I can not accept 'Eureka movement' of self realisation. One instant I am not self-realised , the next instant I am self-realised and stays self-realised does not sound right to me. As I progress in my life, as I gather more and more wisdom, the instances and frequencies I fall prey to my senses keeps reducing. Self realisation is a very slow, gradual process. For some atmans it may take few janmas. If self realisation is an instantaneous occurence, why should the atma go through many janmas before mukhti?

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Renu,

...Its like this..like when we are changing the IV fluid to a new bottle..sometimes we disconnect the old bottle and place a new bottle.
But in the IV drip set a little amount of the old IV fluid say some few ml will be present in along the line isn't it? ]

If you are infusing the same fluid, next bag, why should that bag make any difference? Same old fluid!

But if you are infusing a different fluid, you are going to change the line for sure! So there can't be any old fluid left in the line; it's all new fluid!

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,



I was going to write this reply to Sri. Ranganathan. But I am writing this to you.

I can not accept 'Eureka movement' of self realisation. One instant I am not self-realised , the next instant I am self-realised and stays self-realised does not sound right to me. As I progress in my life, as I gather more and more wisdom, the instances and frequencies I fall prey to my senses keeps reducing. Self realisation is a very slow, gradual process. For some atmans it may take few janmas. If self realisation is an instantaneous occurence, why should the atma go through many janmas before mukhti?

Cheers!

That depends on the person's Sanchita Karma prior to attaining Jeevan Mukti state.
Some people have acquired elevated spiritual status by spiritual disciplines and practices over many janmas.

So what looks like an Eureka Moment is a very well hard earned state over many births.
I think some member gave an example of Ramakrishna Paramahansa attaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi almost instantly when compared to His guru who took 40 years to reach this state.

So Raghy..there is NO shortcut..so happened it looked instant!!

 

[renuka]

Renu,



If you are infusing the same fluid, next bag, why should that bag make any difference? Same old fluid!

But if you are infusing a different fluid, you are going to change the line for sure! So there can't be any old fluid left in the line; it's all new fluid!

Cheers!

Hey Raghy,

How can it be the same old fluid?
It might be Normal Saline but it is coming from a different bag!!

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

So Raghy..there is NO shortcut..so happened it looked instant!!

That is my point. It may look instant to others. But for that atman attaining mukhty, it is a very slow process. It is so hard for us to even overcome our taste buds! It is very long process . So, Sanchita karma possibly will not be accumalated. Think about it, even if I do a good deed, if I don't want any fruits from that, I can very well decline that and do away with the sanchita karmas.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Hey Raghy,

How can it be the same old fluid?
It might be Normal Saline but it is coming from a different bag!!

If the last bag of normal Saline didn't get you mukhti, why should this bag of Normal Saline get you mukhti? You better change your fluids to Hartmanns and hope for the best! Change the giving set, please!

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,



That is my point. It may look instant to others. But for that atman attaining mukhty, it is a very slow process. It is so hard for us to even overcome our taste buds! It is very long process . So, Sanchita karma possibly will not be accumalated. Think about it, even if I do a good deed, if I don't want any fruits from that, I can very well decline that and do away with the sanchita karmas.

Cheers!

yes thats why Lord Krishna said:

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshu kada chana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani



Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshu kada chana - You have the right to perform your actions,but you are not entitled to the fruits of the actions.
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani – Do not let the fruit be the purpose of your actions, and therefore you won’t be attached to not doing your duty.

 

[Raghy]

yes thats why Lord Krishna said:

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani





Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana - You have the right to perform your actions,but you are not entitled to the fruits of the actions.
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani – Do not let the fruit be the purpose of your actions, and therefore you won’t be attached to not doing your duty.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

I accept. That's why I can't quite accept the prarabdha karma. If I am smart, I can get away from that quite easily; I mean quite easily. I don't have to have attachment. Not so hard at all. If my desires are very less, even my desires are going to make someone else happy, my collection can be quite less.

Discuss please.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

I accept. That's why I can't quite accept the prarabdha karma. If I am smart, I can get away from that quite easily; I mean quite easily. I don't have to have attachment. Not so hard at all. If my desires are very less, even my desires are going to make someone else happy, my collection can be quite less.

Discuss please.

Cheers!

Can we start by defining Prarabdha?

Prarabdha Karma are the part of sanchita karma, a collection of past karmas, which are ready to be experienced through the present body (incarnation).[SUP][1]

Wikipedia[/SUP]

It has been set into motion and has to finish its course.
It's like the petrol put in a car and the car made to run till the petrol finishes.
The prarabdha is like the petrol.

 

[Raghy]

Can we start by defining Prarabdha?



It has been set into motion and has to finish its course.
It's like the petrol put in a car and the car made to run till the petrol finishes.
The prarabdha is like the petrol.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

I understand the car will keep running until it runs out of petrol; after learning that, I stopped refilling; but keeps it running as useful as possible. You are saying I am carrying huge barrels of petrol from my past janmas; I am saying, I carry nothing. I went away with nothing; I came back with nothing. So, why didI come back? I did not come back because I had lot of petrol left in the tank; I came back because I could not overcome my desire until my death.... say, in my past life, while I was going, this good looking nurse was trying to perform CPR on me; I was enjoying watching her boobs bouncing through her thin skirt.... back I came here, since I did not overcome my desires. Now I know better.. now itself i watch all the boobs I want so that towards the end I would have seen them all! Like wise I would try to overcome all my desires! so, what happens if I kick the bucket now? that is the test, is it not?

Cheers!