Is reconciliation possible

[suraju06]

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Valli in post #121:

Oh dear! Very wrongly quoted!! Love marriage does solve a very important problem - CASTE! Even in India and outside India!

Even though caste must be registered in the birth certificate, I see children being brought up casteless, even religionless!

That is the truth I am seeing!

In the case of religionless - the parents either take their child to both temple/church/mosque but don't occupy the child's mind with any particular god! They let their child choose the God!

On the other case the parent clearly tells the child that they are non-believers and lets the child attend various scripture lessons and lets the child to decide!

As long as the child has parents' to love them they would not be too defaulted about a God not loving them!

Kind regards

(1)Caste is a problem only when there are discrimination in the name of caste.

(2)In the value system that you acquire from your parents, there is religious values also forming a part of it. It will be difficult to tell here what you will be missing if that particular value is not picked up by your children. Your religionless couple will be leaving that particular requirement of their children unfullfilled, which is a crime/injustice done to the young ones. The child choosing the God, not occupying the mind with any God, etc are alright as talking points for the score sheet. But life is quite different. It will be too much of a confusion for the child if a demand were made on it to choose a god.

(3)Parents' love and God's grace are two different things. There is a paradigm difference between the two.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

reconcile from a weak position is more like surrender. TB will mot be in a position of power to reconcile from strength.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Dear Raju:

My response in bold letters below:



Peace.

P Chidambaram is Annamalai Chettiar's vaarisu and he can be martian also and still be a Central Minister.

The problem with whats happening with the TBs is the social alienation and i am quite happy about it.

Better we leave this wretched place and seek a more national role for ourselves,which they already are.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

The question is do Tamil Brahmins see themselves as Tamilians first? Do other non Tamils see Tamil Brahmins as just Tamilians? I'd hazard a guess that NO they don't nor do others from what I've observed. Most people see TamBrahms as just that, Tambrahms.

I mean here you have ethnic Tamils quickly followed by the caste and a whole new word Tambrahm. We never hear of other ethnic communities refer to themselves as TelBrahms or MalBrahms or GujBrahms or PunjBrahms. For all other communities you'd either have to be close enough to glean their caste or check out their surnames or whatever to know. It seems to me that they don't identify with caste (except for marriage perhaps) in such a strong, intense way as TamBrahms. For Tambrahms being Brahmin is all pervading. Perhaps only when they can identify with their ethnic group alone at least for 5 mins before shoving in the Brahmin tag will they be seriously considered as Tamil first? Just a thought...

OTOH to be fair TamBrahms are a distinct unique subculture of their own within Tamil society. They have much differences with the other Tamilians: food, language (iyer/iyengar baashai), culture,music, hell even looks (apparently) so then can we blame them and the others for distinguishing TamBrahms from other Tamil populace?

PS: The only other ethnic group that identifies caste with ethnicity ala Tambrahms are the Kashmiri Pandits. But given their sobering history I'm not sure one can find fault with that?

Punjabi Pandits,UP Brahmins,Maharashtrain Konkanastha Brahmins,Bengali/Odiya Brahmins and the UP/MP/Bihari brahmins do call themselves equally separately.Caste exists in every corner of India not as viciously as in TN with their half-baked racial theories.

You come to Tirunelveli and Kanyakumari,all people speak the same way with a strong malayalam-tamizh mixed slang and everyone can say Zh.And moreover u take southern travancore malayalees and even srilankan tamizhs and see the similarities in the languages.

They say Vaango,Poongo,they sue words like Chevi and they all cant say S and use CH instead and as such the words are far more archaic and it is one of the places with much more equitableness between castes and barring few things offlate.

It is all the Telugu,Karnataka migrants of northern and central TN who make a big fuss and they cant even speak the original Tamizh properly.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Balls to reconciliation,My ancestors ran away from the north to escape muslim aggression and to keep our religion and culture,else this whole country would have been greenwashed by now.

 

[Nara]

...It is all the Telugu,Karnataka migrants of northern and central TN who make a big fuss and they cant even speak the original Tamizh properly.

சரியா அமலா, சிவாவும் கூட, எல்லாம் உங்களப்போல ஆந்த்ராக்காரங்களல் தான், புரிஞ்சுதா!

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Dude,I have roots from Travancore on my maternal side and My father's side has Maternal roots from Maharashtra and paternal grandfather had roots in travancore and maharashtra again.

Anyway thats not the point,i am not saying TamlNadu belongs only to Tamizh speakers,which is the argument of the half-baked Dravidian Movement backed by christian missionaries.People who speak other languages still live peacefully in TN and the biggest voice over for this Tamizh movement came from Telugu speaking and Kannada speaking elites.

Dont twist the argument in a random direction.

 

[Nara]

Raju, now that the other thread is closed, a good decision if I may so observe, I would like you to record the response to the third lie you have promised here. For the sake of context let me restate the main point from this post.

"The SV practice today specifically forbids what SPVP says they must do, அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் .. அவர்களை ஆராதியுங்கோள் .... அவர்கள் உண்ட சேஷத்தை புஜியுங்கோள் ..... அவர்களின் ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம் அருந்துங்கோள்."

​

"This open rank hypocrisy remains unanswered. Saying I am misinterpreting and I am misrepresenting, do not hold water, these are unambiguous words of SPVP."

​

Please stick to the point, don't bombard with obfuscations like inner meaning etc.

BTW, the reason I chose this thread is because if we were to adopt the message of Azhvars as interpreted even by Brahminical commentators of yesteryears, some 1000 years in the yester, we would all have reconciled a long time back.

Cheers!

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Friends

This question is on my mind for a long.... time! I am posting it here since the thread title says that 'Is reconciliation possible'!

Here the OP is talking about the reconciliation between B and others! Alright, good!

It is so... difficult for that situation to happen when there is no reconciliation within one's own family even in 2011!!!!!!!!

Here I am going to give the true details about my immediate girl cousin.

She married a NB. He is also a Hindu! The parents though now accepted her, still don't allow her even to partake in the 'Thevasams' of her grandparents! If she eats the food then she will contaminate the whole family!!!

To top that up, the parents have told my akka (cousin - Periyappa pen) not to attend their death ceremony and not to stay and partake the food, since that will make her elder brother contaminated!!! They fear that he will be excommunicated!!!!

You know how much heartache she carries till this date and how much she has cried?? Oh, not because she married a good man - he is the gem of a person! But because of the attitude of the brahmin parents'!!

I know of many many love marriage couples! As far as I have seen, NO nonbrahmin families exclude their daughter from attending to either their death ceremonies or the in-laws death ceremonies.

My akka, even though born and brought up in a typical B family feels/made to feel like a downtrodden/Sudhra person by her own family and by ALL her relatives!

If this is the case for a brahmin girl then what do you say guys for a NB or a Dalit/Sc/St??????

Is reconciliation REALLY possible?

P.S. Any person over here who has not felt this experience CANNOT relate to it and please don't IMMEDIATELY take sides! I am really not posting this to offend or hurt anyone but only to tell that this situation exists EVEN IN 2011!!!

Such occurences are real. Even now some personalities have excluded my relation who has married out of caste from family functions like pondugal and i would assume that would apply to shraddham also , in the future. Many many years back this girl married a low caste boy not so qualified. He father refused to speak to her till his death causing heartpain to all.

These I believe are the legacy of a previous generation not sure if it would catch up in the next.

 

[subbudu1]

Dude,I have roots from Travancore on my maternal side and My father's side has Maternal roots from Maharashtra and paternal grandfather had roots in travancore and maharashtra again.

Anyway thats not the point,i am not saying TamlNadu belongs only to Tamizh speakers,which is the argument of the half-baked Dravidian Movement backed by christian missionaries.People who speak other languages still live peacefully in TN and the biggest voice over for this Tamizh movement came from Telugu speaking and Kannada speaking elites.

Dont twist the argument in a random direction.

Your ancestors as you say might have run away from Maharashtra but hinduism is still alive and well out there. Was it really a great move or was it just an opportunistic one- promise of lands, money and bonded laborers? I for one do not think the migration happened because of invasion from places like Maharaahtra. It seems a spin. I would assume that wealth attracted them.

 

[sarang]

If caste is going to disappear, why caste census? When results are announced, we will know who needs reservation. Muslims are expected to be 120 millions (as per indian sources) to 180 millions(american sources - excluding bangladesh illegal infiltrators). Brahmins will be far less. Brahmins may disappear but not castes!

The concept of caste will die, sooner or later. Give it 25 more years, tops. Change is accelerating.

 

[valli]

Such occurences are real. Even now some personalities have excluded my relation who has married out of caste from family functions like pondugal and i would assume that would apply to shraddham also , in the future. Many many years back this girl married a low caste boy not so qualified. He father refused to speak to her till his death causing heartpain to all.

These I believe are the legacy of a previous generation not sure if it would catch up in the next.

Dear Shri Subbudu Sir

Thanks for telling that these occurences are real and you have witnessed partof in your family!

What pains me is, my periappa was not even a Prohitar or anything like that! He was in a high position in a bank and one of his best friend is a Muslim! He would eat food in their house along with his family just to prove that he is so good natured and does not treat anyone otherwise!

Just a big BANG when my akka married out of caste. All his true colours came out!!!

I clearly remember this! We had all gone to the death of our grandpa. Periappa's family were not living in the same house but within 10 minutes travel to grandpa's house. At that time akka had a 2 month old baby (first delivery) and was still in their house (she had come for delivery and was still there). Periamma and appa were full time in grandpa's house for the functions. They had some 'mami' to cook for akka at their house and every night periamma would go to back to look after akka. Most of the time our Anna (Periappa's son) would not come there due to job nature and would be served the food taken from here. Periamma will take everything - payasam, vegetables, any other sweets made that day etc etc, place them on the dining table and clearly instruct akka NOT TO EAT THEM! Many nights me too stayed with akka and have first hand witnessed it!

Was I angered about the HIPOCRISY!!! One can imagine! According to me, brahmins will never reveal their true colours until something like this happens to them!!!

Again, I have witnessed a brahmin friend of mine marrying an ST (yes, an ST)! The boy was accepted full hearted!. The girls family don't believe in caste!! But these are very very rare exceptions!

Kind regards

 

[prasad1]

If caste is going to disappear, why caste census? When results are announced, we will know who needs reservation. Muslims are expected to be 120 millions (as per indian sources) to 180 millions(american sources - excluding bangladesh illegal infiltrators). Brahmins will be far less. Brahmins may disappear but not castes!

As long as caste is a social clutch, and a potential vote bank, it will be factor in Indian life.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear valli,

i know of tambrams women who imbibe alcohol and eat anything that moves.

these, when they go to india, dont even bother to don their thali. all this is accepted within the families they belong, and they are full part of pondugal idal + thevasam et al. there is no feeling of guilt or intrusion, from either side. just a natural thing to include a loved relative whose very presence from a far off place is looked upon with appreciation. that is all there is.

it all depends on the family. the more secure one is with life, the more assured they are with death and death related formalities.

myself, being a nonconformist, had serious doubts, last january, when i visited chennai, and by chance, my uncle's first thevasam was on schedule. i try to excuse myself, but my aunt would not hear of it. she told me in straight words, that how much my uncle loved me, and it would give him no amount of happiness, for me to partake of any function related to me. such bonds of love bind together and overcome all man made strictures.

valli, my utmost sympathies to your sister. i think, it is best she takes these things in her stride, and focus on what is important to her - her husband, children, and above all, folks who accept her as what she is.

it is also best, that she does not look at the painful past anymore, as nothing can obiliterate the harm done.

for the future, it is best, to expect nothing. so, by chance, if something changes for the better, let it be a pleasant surprise. tell her not to raise her expectations and set herself for more disappointments.

God Bless.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Your ancestors as you say might have run away from Maharashtra but hinduism is still alive and well out there. Was it really a great move or was it just an opportunistic one- promise of lands, money and bonded laborers? I for one do not think the migration happened because of invasion from places like Maharaahtra. It seems a spin. I would assume that wealth attracted them.

It is still alive there,it is alive because some people survived it.I am talking about 500-600 years ago,they didn't speculate their existence and ended up being more decisive.If not they would have long died or converted.They came down because of the Vijayanagar empire,which might have called them.Everyone moves for oppurtunities and survival and also fearing the lack of it.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

dear valli,

i know of tambrams women who imbibe alcohol and eat anything that moves.

these, when they go to india, dont even bother to don their thali. all this is accepted within the families they belong, and they are full part of pondugal idal + thevasam et al. there is no feeling of guilt or intrusion, from either side. just a natural thing to include a loved relative whose very presence from a far off place is looked upon with appreciation. that is all there is.

it all depends on the family. the more secure one is with life, the more assured they are with death and death related formalities.

myself, being a nonconformist, had serious doubts, last january, when i visited chennai, and by chance, my uncle's first thevasam was on schedule. i try to excuse myself, but my aunt would not hear of it. she told me in straight words, that how much my uncle loved me, and it would give him no amount of happiness, for me to partake of any function related to me. such bonds of love bind together and overcome all man made strictures.

valli, my utmost sympathies to your sister. i think, it is best she takes these things in her stride, and focus on what is important to her - her husband, children, and above all, folks who accept her as what she is.

it is also best, that she does not look at the painful past anymore, as nothing can obiliterate the harm done.

for the future, it is best, to expect nothing. so, by chance, if something changes for the better, let it be a pleasant surprise. tell her not to raise her expectations and set herself for more disappointments.

God Bless.

Thevasam is a sign of respect for the elders,perhaps one can respect the elders even without doing thevasam but for me it is duty,and it is a must to do thevasam.yeah,my advice to folks who do inter-caste marriage inviting the non-cooperation of the parents,dont care about all that.Let the parents be in their zone,you guys be in your zone.Thats all.why care about them when they dont about your choices in life?

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

dear valli,

i know of tambrams women who imbibe alcohol and eat anything that moves.

these, when they go to india, dont even bother to don their thali. all this is accepted within the families they belong, and they are full part of pondugal idal + thevasam et al. there is no feeling of guilt or intrusion, from either side. just a natural thing to include a loved relative whose very presence from a far off place is looked upon with appreciation. that is all there is.

it all depends on the family. the more secure one is with life, the more assured they are with death and death related formalities.

myself, being a nonconformist, had serious doubts, last january, when i visited chennai, and by chance, my uncle's first thevasam was on schedule. i try to excuse myself, but my aunt would not hear of it. she told me in straight words, that how much my uncle loved me, and it would give him no amount of happiness, for me to partake of any function related to me. such bonds of love bind together and overcome all man made strictures.

valli, my utmost sympathies to your sister. i think, it is best she takes these things in her stride, and focus on what is important to her - her husband, children, and above all, folks who accept her as what she is.

it is also best, that she does not look at the painful past anymore, as nothing can obiliterate the harm done.

for the future, it is best, to expect nothing. so, by chance, if something changes for the better, let it be a pleasant surprise. tell her not to raise her expectations and set herself for more disappointments.

God Bless.

But as much as this is the case,there also are a bunch of people,who continue to keep this rituals and traditions in life as their duty regardless of the questions arise from them.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Shri Subbudu Sir

Thanks for telling that these occurences are real and you have witnessed partof in your family!

What pains me is, my periappa was not even a Prohitar or anything like that! He was in a high position in a bank and one of his best friend is a Muslim! He would eat food in their house along with his family just to prove that he is so good natured and does not treat anyone otherwise!

Just a big BANG when my akka married out of caste. All his true colours came out!!!

I clearly remember this! We had all gone to the death of our grandpa. Periappa's family were not living in the same house but within 10 minutes travel to grandpa's house. At that time akka had a 2 month old baby (first delivery) and was still in their house (she had come for delivery and was still there). Periamma and appa were full time in grandpa's house for the functions. They had some 'mami' to cook for akka at their house and every night periamma would go to back to look after akka. Most of the time our Anna (Periappa's son) would not come there due to job nature and would be served the food taken from here. Periamma will take everything - payasam, vegetables, any other sweets made that day etc etc, place them on the dining table and clearly instruct akka NOT TO EAT THEM! Many nights me too stayed with akka and have first hand witnessed it!

Was I angered about the HIPOCRISY!!! One can imagine! According to me, brahmins will never reveal their true colours until something like this happens to them!!!

Again, I have witnessed a brahmin friend of mine marrying an ST (yes, an ST)! The boy was accepted full hearted!. The girls family don't believe in caste!! But these are very very rare exceptions!

Kind regards

In my last post there is a type error. I referred to two cases. One a recent lady married less than five years ago who has been chucked out of pondugal and the other a much earlier story of a woman whose father never spoke to her.

Sometimes people who are not purohitars can be more fanatical.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

vadamas are the most fanatical.

 

[prasad1]

vadamas are the most fanatical.

Is it not a bold generalization? I would like some social correctness. What authority you have to say such brazen absurdities.
It is like saying xxx-community is all terrorists, or yyy-community is drunk.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

I am one and i know the folks very well.Either most fanatical or most liberal,no middle ground.

 

[amala]

I know many vadamas who are moderate. Personally I feel moderation is the key...to happy healthy living, be it with food, exercise, thoughts whatever. Having said that I myself am not too moderate on many a thing...but i do try...

 

[tbs]

vadamas are the most fanatical.

hi SN sir,
i agreed with u............vasdamas/vadagalai also more fanatical....its my 2 cents....i myself experienced.....even though i myself vadama....i do

not myself moderate sometimes....im very conservative in many issues.....but im not too fanatical too...

regards
tbs

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

I am extremist in many things,fanatical about few things and extremely liberal about other things.never a middle ground,just the way the blood works.Of course there ll be lot of exceptions,just talking about a general trend i observed.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

I am highly anti smoking,drinking and non-veg but liberal about rituals barring the birth,death ones.I am fanatical about inter religious marriage and some IC marriages but liberal about inter-regional ones.It goes and on and no sir,more and all man,i am just 27.