Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[pvraman]

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I used to like Ali Sina's articles. Used to be a frequent visitor .

Dear Sri Anand,

They have one Dr Ali Sina. We have many and within each hindu too, time to time.

"Ramar padaththai seruppal adiththu oorvalamai kondu sellappattathu ingu,

" kadavulai nambuvan Muttal enbadhu pondra kalvettai, srirangam templekku ner edhire vaika mudivadhum ingu,

I think, we allow much more aggressive 'criticism' than Ali Sinha does.

Regards

 

[Nara]

...I think, we allow much more aggressive 'criticism' than Ali Sinha does.

The question, dear PVR, is, why do those who derives so much joy and satisfaction from Ali Sinha's criticisms of Islam, detest the criticisms that you say "we" allow?

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.happy Hindu,

Raghy, Please go thru this link: States: Kerala: The New Namboodiris

"No sir, you are not right to say that caste cannot change in hinduism. People have been changing caste despite what you or i or mutts think. For those who like to stay as they are, well and good. For those who like to change, venues continue to exist these days."

Sow.HH, I went through the link about namboodhiries.
"In the past five years, over 50 non-Brahmins have changed their caste in this manner."
Why?... "Most of these new Brahmins are non-Namboodiri spouses craving acceptance in the Namboodiri community."
What other reason prompted the 'conversion'? ..." There are others who, in a state with chronic unemployment, do it merely to get jobs as priests in temples. Besides, there are instances of prosperous lower castes embracing brahminhood to escape the caste stigma. Last year, three members from the backward Thiyya caste from Kozhikode converted to brahminhood so that they could become priests in temples. Says one of them, requesting anonymity: "Though there is no ban on backward castes becoming priests, we converted only to win social acceptability."

Sow.HH, This is only a tiny population (although they converted for vested interests). I would call this as an isolated incident. Sorry.

Sri.PVR, What a wishful thinking!

“Thanks for the link. This is what we want and I mean.

Unlike other religions, I was wondering what is the way to convert into Hinduism. Because people can go out and there is no clear way to come in. So when they come-in, they should be able to join with any caste they wish. I think, once it is popularized and the caste differences are equalized, Hinduism may be the majority in the world.”

My High School records say that I am a Brahmin (Let us not worry about my real caste). All I have to do is, convert to one sect of Christianity; wait for all the records to be filled out, announce in the gazette (say 3 to 4 months). Then, convert back to Hinduism taking up the S/T caste! Good idea! Hope it will work.

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

“And yes, i hear RSS is actively removing caste discriminations”
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/
Sow.HH, the phrase ‘caste discriminations’ does not sit well with me. The existence of so many castes itself is discrimination; do we really need to say ‘caste discriminations’ amoung those castes?

With regards to the ‘adhi vasi’s’ religious followings, I am not too inclined to believe neither the RSS nor the Catholics. The Adhi vasis are capable of deciding about their own religion if they need one. When someone convert to Hinduism, what caste would they follow? If they are given ‘brahmin’ status, then the karma theory is shot to pieces; if they are given ‘sudhra’ caste, why bother converting at all?

Sow.Happy Hindu,

“Raghy, i differ with you here. Tricks of the trade are survival skills. When it comes to access to God, it is not a trade. If we considered it as a trade, then we are no better off than the soul-harvesters for whom religion is a trade.”

Tricks of my trade was my survival skill, I agree. But that can not be compared with access to God. In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to conduct prayers at the temple as they please, as they understand; sure, a Brahmin priest may conduct it for a person if a person wishes so. Now it is monopolised; that need not be there. That includes NB priests too.

Sow. HH and other respectable members,

When Hinduism adopted caste system, it was like spreading a fine thin cloth over a thorny bush for drying. Hinduism being the cloth and thorny bush being the caste system. “Is the caste system weaken Hinduism?” that was the topic question. 68 pages of discussions have gone through. I dare say, caste system not just weakens Hinduism but would ruin Hinduism beyond repair.

Cheers?

 

[Raghy]

Sri Raghy,



I agree to almost all of the contents except the above one. Invasion has nothing to do with the system, it is to do with the defense of the country. Madhan's interesting book "Vandargal Vendrargal' gives a very good idea about the origin and fall, covering the entire medieval time.

The fact is that we were very rich in all respects which attracted the desert fellows, we were not prepared or expected an invasion (first of its kind).

Regards

Sri.PVR,

I have a caste system in my society. I have a bunch of people whose job is to only think. They will think and direct the society to prosperity. There is one more bunch of people who will do nothing but fight. They will listen to the thinking experts, plan strategies and protect my society from any attacks. So, what do I do? I work in the field everyday; I do all the cleaning, cultivating, cooking... you name it, I do it. So what is my problem? well, my problem is, I was not allowed to bear arms; I was not allowed any weapens training. well, Millions like me were slaughtered; my children and women were taken as slaves. There is one thing to be proud of though. There is a mountain in my name. It is called 'Hindu Kush'. It is in Persian language that means 'Hindu slaughter'.
I paid taxes, I and my family went on diet to feed the thinking experts and the fighting experts. The result? 'Hindu Kush'.

cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sow.Sri.happy Hindu,

Raghy, Please go thru this link: States: Kerala: The New Namboodiris

"No sir, you are not right to say that caste cannot change in hinduism. People have been changing caste despite what you or i or mutts think. For those who like to stay as they are, well and good. For those who like to change, venues continue to exist these days."

Sow.HH, I went through the link about namboodhiries.
"In the past five years, over 50 non-Brahmins have changed their caste in this manner."
Why?... "Most of these new Brahmins are non-Namboodiri spouses craving acceptance in the Namboodiri community."
What other reason prompted the 'conversion'? ..." There are others who, in a state with chronic unemployment, do it merely to get jobs as priests in temples. Besides, there are instances of prosperous lower castes embracing brahminhood to escape the caste stigma. Last year, three members from the backward Thiyya caste from Kozhikode converted to brahminhood so that they could become priests in temples. Says one of them, requesting anonymity: "Though there is no ban on backward castes becoming priests, we converted only to win social acceptability."

Sow.HH, This is only a tiny population (although they converted for vested interests). I would call this as an isolated incident. Sorry.

Sri.PVR, What a wishful thinking!

“Thanks for the link. This is what we want and I mean.

Unlike other religions, I was wondering what is the way to convert into Hinduism. Because people can go out and there is no clear way to come in. So when they come-in, they should be able to join with any caste they wish. I think, once it is popularized and the caste differences are equalized, Hinduism may be the majority in the world.”

My High School records say that I am a Brahmin (Let us not worry about my real caste). All I have to do is, convert to one sect of Christianity; wait for all the records to be filled out, announce in the gazette (say 3 to 4 months). Then, convert back to Hinduism taking up the S/T caste! Good idea! Hope it will work.

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

“And yes, i hear RSS is actively removing caste discriminations”

Sow.HH, the phrase ‘caste discriminations’ does not sit well with me. The existence of so many castes itself is discrimination; do we really need to say ‘caste discriminations’ amoung those castes?

With regards to the ‘adhi vasi’s’ religious followings, I am not too inclined to believe neither the RSS nor the Catholics. The Adhi vasis are capable of deciding about their own religion if they need one. When someone convert to Hinduism, what caste would they follow? If they are given ‘brahmin’ status, then the karma theory is shot to pieces; if they are given ‘sudhra’ caste, why bother converting at all?

Sow.Happy Hindu,

“Raghy, i differ with you here. Tricks of the trade are survival skills. When it comes to access to God, it is not a trade. If we considered it as a trade, then we are no better off than the soul-harvesters for whom religion is a trade.”

Tricks of my trade was my survival skill, I agree. But that can not be compared with access to God. In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to conduct prayers at the temple as they please, as they understand; sure, a Brahmin priest may conduct it for a person if a person wishes so. Now it is monopolised; that need not be there. That includes NB priests too.

Sow. HH and other respectable members,

When Hinduism adopted caste system, it was like spreading a fine thin cloth over a thorny bush for drying. Hinduism being the cloth and thorny bush being the caste system. “Is the caste system weaken Hinduism?” that was the topic question. 68 pages of discussions have gone through. I dare say, caste system not just weakens Hinduism but would ruin Hinduism beyond repair.

Cheers?

Hi Raghy,

I have a small request you. Please put the posts of diff posters, like mine and PVRs, in quotes and then put forth your inputs, otherwise it is a bit difficult to follow your post.

From what i understand above::

Sow.HH, This is only a tiny population (although they converted for vested interests). I would call this as an isolated incident. Sorry.

That's not the only incident. Its an ongoing scenario. There are vedic schools that take in students across all strata in other states. And those who train to bcome purohits do claim to become brahmins. And its not new.

Do read up works of MN Srinivas and Rajendra Sharma who described the process of sanskritization in pre-independent India. Its always been happening.

To earn a living, one seeks employment in a temple, then learns the 'trade', becomes a purohit 'brahmin', and eventually gets absorbed into the caste, its not new.

There are all sorts of people. There are ppl who choose to get absorbed into a particular caste; and there are ppl who choose to retain their caste but do the jobs of a purohit.

Sow.HH, the phrase ‘caste discriminations’ does not sit well with me. The existence of so many castes itself is discrimination; do we really need to say ‘caste discriminations’ amoung those castes?

No, the existence of so many castes is not discrimination. Discrimination is a term that applies when an individual or an institution seeks to segregate people (and discriminate against them with foul language), against their will.

If a tribal guy wants to become a purohit, and he is prevented from pursuing his desire, by citing shastras which demean him for his birth, then that is discrimination.

These things might have been followed when we as a society we still primitive, but not today...

With regards to the ‘adhi vasi’s’ religious followings, I am not too inclined to believe neither the RSS nor the Catholics. The Adhi vasis are capable of deciding about their own religion if they need one. When someone convert to Hinduism, what caste would they follow? If they are given ‘brahmin’ status, then the karma theory is shot to pieces; if they are given ‘sudhra’ caste, why bother converting at all?

Those who convert to christianity as well as those who revert to hinduism are ppl who are capable of deciding their religion.

Converting for money is a common scenario. And then they reconvert back for various reasons, one being social acceptance (bcoz by converting they bcome excommunicated from their village temple activities, which they do not want).

As far as i know they are absorbed into the hindu fold without any caste. But if an individual wants to become a purohit, i do not think he is prevented from doing so (there are cases that turn up at the arya samaj of those who want to revert back to hinduism as a 'brahmin' purohit, and ends up training to be one).

Tricks of my trade was my survival skill, I agree. But that can not be compared with access to God. In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to conduct prayers at the temple as they please, as they understand; sure, a Brahmin priest may conduct it for a person if a person wishes so. Now it is monopolised; that need not be there. That includes NB priests too.

i have no idea how ppl can think of monopolizing god, religion or even caste. Come to think of it, its all just ego, nothing to do with the state of the spirit or spirituality.

Am told that in those days, initiating a disciple into rahasya mantras and various kriyas in a step by step process did not depend on his caste, but on his earnestness and ability to pursue such austerity...as in monks of various ekadandi or advaita sampradayams...but things sorta seemed to have changed after buddhism for a myriad reasons...

Sow. HH and other respectable members,

When Hinduism adopted caste system, it was like spreading a fine thin cloth over a thorny bush for drying. Hinduism being the cloth and thorny bush being the caste system. “Is the caste system weaken Hinduism?” that was the topic question. 68 pages of discussions have gone through. I dare say, caste system not just weakens Hinduism but would ruin Hinduism beyond repair.

Exactly what i feel so too....

 

[happyhindu]

No doubt. I think, he is aggressive because of Muslim terrorists who gets support from their holy scriptures which is not found in other religions.

Cheers

irrespective of whether one is a muslim wahhabi jihadist with his own interpretation of the quranic verses, or a christian crusader or a hindu fundamentalist, nothing stops these ppl from using seemingly benign verses or ambivalent verses to create an ideology of violence and religious supremacy....

 

[suraju06]

Three blind men went to the temple to find out what is an elephant.After touching and feeling it one said elephant is like the temple pillar by the side of which he sits every day. Another said elephant is like the rope of the Chariot he once pulled on the rath yatra day. Another said it is wet and flexible like the banana stem. Each one was right in that he was trying to explain something with what experience he had. But their perception was flawed because it was not complete. I am reminded of this.

 

[Nara]

We are also part of society....

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara
Yes, I read it in the HINDU since I am here in Chennai. I was shocked to read the wall built to keep the dalits out; cannot believe that dalits are still not allowed entry into the temples by 'caste hindus'. What is the Chief Minister and his party doing to fight this? NOTHING. For all its glory, India is going away from spirituality, compassion, fellow brotherhood, patience. Now, I can write volumes about 'patience' (or lack thereof!) here now that I drive in Chennai, too!! What an experience!

We are also part of society....

 

[RVR]

Dear Prof. Nara
Yes, I read it in the HINDU since I am here in Chennai. I was shocked to read the wall built to keep the dalits out; cannot believe that dalits are still not allowed entry into the temples by 'caste hindus'. What is the Chief Minister and his party doing to fight this? NOTHING. For all its glory, India is going away from spirituality, compassion, fellow brotherhood, patience. Now, I can write volumes about 'patience' (or lack thereof!) here now that I drive in Chennai, too!! What an experience!

From 1989 onwards, only the dravidian parties are ruling the state.

I am shocked that it is happening at Coimbatore City itself.

Dalith outfits should have moved the court and could have got justice but I don't know what they were doing all along.

In the pretext of constructing a temple, land encroachments are going on at several places including Chennai city. I have seen traffic getting affected because of these encroached temples.

Law has to be implemented and vested interests should be punished.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Silverfox,

The hyperlink says

"Revenue, police and the Coimbatore Corporation authorities demolished a wall that had..."

so i suppose the government and their authorities are functioning wrt to such things....

Some more stories in the media:

1) http://infochangeindia.org/20091028...pposition-to-enter-temple-in-Tamil-Nadu.html:

Dalits in Chettipulam village, in Tamil Nadu’s Nagapattinam district, entered the Kamakshi Amman Sametha Ekambareshwarar temple in the presence of a huge police gathering...Dalits in the village of Chettipulam, in Tamil Nadu, entered the Ekambareshwarar temple to offer prayers on October 27, 2009, ushered in by the collector and district revenue officer (DRO) amid considerable police security.

2) Tension grips Tamil Nadu village over Dalits’ entry into temple

Hindu temple was thrown open to Dalits on the orders of the Madras High Court, prompting the protesting upper caste Vanniyar community to leave the village, officials said.Trouble arose after a temple dedicated to Hindu goddess Draupadi in Kandampatti village was opened to Dalits Monday on the orders of the court after being locked up for nine months due to a dispute with the upper castes over temple entry, police sources said. “The Dalits are celebrating their being able to pray in the temple after a long time following the orders of the Madras High Court. But the Vanniyars are upset as they feel their hold over the 300-year-old shrine is lost forever and they have shifted to another temple temporarily with all belongings,” a police official said. Heavy security under the supervision of police commissioner V. Perumal has been ordered in and around the temple.

 

[pvraman]

Thank God! They got justice after 20 years (approx.).

"
“The wall, built in 1990, was evidence of the prevalence of discrimination and untouchability,” said U.K. Sivagnanam, district convenor of the Untouchability Eradication Front. He had petitioned the authorities on Friday, demanding the removal of the wall.
According to Periyar Nagar residents, the government acquired land for their colony in 1989 and provided house site pattas to them. Caste Hindus living along the initial stretch of Jeeva Road had installed a Vinayakar idol in a small shed and built the wall behind it, exactly from where the colony began. The temple was used as a pretext for closing the road with a discriminatory attitude to prevent the Dalits from using Jeeva Road to reach Kamarajar Road through the area in which the caste Hindus resided, Mr. Sivagnanam alleged. The Dalits had used other routes to reach the main road for many years. But with more buildings coming up on open sites nearby, they were left with only a narrow street to reach the main road.

We are also part of society....

Rajan, a resident of the colony, and some Dalit women said: “We are happy on getting this access to Kamarajar Road. This ends the circuitous route we had to take all these years. The removal of the wall has given us a feeling that we are also part of society.”

Cheers

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu said -

"Hi Raghy,

I have a small request you. Please put the posts of diff posters, like mine and PVRs, in quotes and then put forth your inputs, otherwise it is a bit difficult to follow your post."

Greetings Sow.HH. Okay. Sorry about it. Point taken.

Sow.Sri.HH said -

"That's not the only incident. Its an ongoing scenario. There are vedic schools that take in students across all strata in other states. And those who train to bcome purohits do claim to become brahmins. And its not new.

Do read up works of MN Srinivas and Rajendra Sharma who described the process of sanskritization in pre-independent India. Its always been happening.

To earn a living, one seeks employment in a temple, then learns the 'trade', becomes a purohit 'brahmin', and eventually gets absorbed into the caste, its not new.

There are all sorts of people. There are ppl who choose to get absorbed into a particular caste; and there are ppl who choose to retain their caste but do the jobs of a purohit."

Sow.HH, unlike you I am the least interested about purohit business, who does it or who does not do it etc. In my opinion, in the caste feelings and differences, purohit business is a very small section. Sorry, I am passing this by.

Sow.Sri.HH said -

"No, the existence of so many castes is not discrimination. Discrimination is a term that applies when an individual or an institution seeks to segregate people (and discriminate against them with foul language), against their will.

If a tribal guy wants to become a purohit, and he is prevented from pursuing his desire, by citing shastras which demean him for his birth, then that is discrimination.

These things might have been followed when we as a society we still primitive, but not today..."

Existence of caste system itself is discrimination. Existence of caste system is the main reason for preventing the tribal guy from becoming a purohit. If anybody can become anything, then there would not have been any prevention for one particular group from conducting few particular jobs.

Say for example, in a casteless society, any one can choose to do any job. The end of the day, every thing depends upon ones perseverence and hard work, is it not? That's why I say, caste system itself is the base for discriminations.

Sow.HH, you have not addressed my general question - if one can change caste when reverting to Hinduism, then why can't a brahmin change religion and revert back to Hinduism taking up S/T caste and the benefits attached to that csate? If Adivasi's can revert to Brahmin caste, why can't a brahmin revert to Hinduism to S/T caste? Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

re

wayi mayo chaanya traiko vishnur
Vyartham kupyasi sarva sahishnu,
Sarwasaminnapi pasyaathmaanam,
Sarvathrothsyuja bhedaajnananm.

In you and in me is Govinda,
So on whom will you show your ire?
See all as one and one as all,
Leave this difference between one and one.

Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam,
Govindam Bhaja Mooda Mathe,
Samprapthe sannihithe kale,
Nahi nahi rakshathi dookrunj karane.


Pray Govinda, Pray Govinda,
Pray Govinda, You fool,
For all the ken with you,
Will not be there,
When your end is near.

Sung by Adi Sankara Acharya of the Sarva-Gnanam Peedham Kanchi Kamakoti of Nagareshu Kanchi,Tamizh Nadu,India.

Transliteration and Translation, P.R.Ramachander

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

In you and in me is Govinda,
So on whom will you show your ire?
See all as one and one as all,
Leave this difference between one and one.

Nachi, this is a beautiful sentiment. But it seems only lip service is given to it. Even after Adi Shankara saw the divine in a Chandala, the dalit has lived only a dalit. These high ideals are cited only when it serves a convenient purpose, you know, hypocrisy thing. In daily life, from the orthdoxy to the lay, everyone sees only the difference, nobody sees the Govinda in the other. What do you think about that?

Thank you....

 

[Raghy]

Nachi, this is a beautiful sentiment. But it seems only lip service is given to it. Even after Adi Shankara saw the divine in a Chandala, the dalit has lived only a dalit. These high ideals are cited only when it serves a convenient purpose, you know, hypocrisy thing. In daily life, from the orthdoxy to the lay, everyone sees only the difference, nobody sees the Govinda in the other. What do you think about that?

Thank you....

Sri. Nara,

Firstly we should be able to see the human being in everyone. If Bhagavat Padal Sri.Adi Shankara saw everyone as human beings, unfortunately, he failed to pass such sentiments to others. If we can see Govinda in everyone, we have become jnanis; we are not jnanis. I am still waiting for the day when we see others as human beings equal to us.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sow.HH, unlike you I am the least interested about purohit business, who does it or who does not do it etc. In my opinion, in the caste feelings and differences, purohit business is a very small section. Sorry, I am passing this by.

Ok.

That was just to let you know that sanskritization existed, and that former non-brahmins very well became part of the brahmin community in pre-independent india via the purohit business. And that route still exists...

There is plenty of literature available reg caste and history for those who are interested in looking up such things.

To me, the ideas of purity and exclusivity and ghetto like mentality shown by some folk here sounds mostly ironical and sometimes even comical.

Existence of caste system itself is discrimination. Existence of caste system is the main reason for preventing the tribal guy from becoming a purohit. If anybody can become anything, then there would not have been any prevention for one particular group from conducting few particular jobs.

Say for example, in a casteless society, any one can choose to do any job. The end of the day, every thing depends upon ones perseverence and hard work, is it not? That's why I say, caste system itself is the base for discriminations.

Caste system in the past was not rigid ....

If it was then indo-scythians (so called barbarians) absorbed into hindusim as shudras wud have remained as they were....but historically men of indo-scythic origin have become rishis like kanva, parasurama, jamadagni, atreya, bharadwaja, vatsa (who was also called shudra-putra in panchavimsha brahman 14.6.6 of samaveda and in whose line comes srivatsa), etc. Source for Vatsa, addressed as a shudra-putra:

[FONT=Arial Unicode MS, Arial Unicode MS Standard][FONT=Arial Unicode MS, Arial Unicode MS Standard](PB 14.6.6) vatsaś ca vai medhātithiś ca kāṇvāv āstāṃ taṃ vatsaṃ medhātithir ākrośad abrāhmaṇo 'si śūdrāputra iti so 'bravīd ṛtenāgniṃ vyayāva yataro nau brahmīyān iti vātsena vatso vyain maidhātithena medhātithis tasya na loma ca nauṣat tad vāva sa tarhy akāmayata kāmasani sāma vātsaṃ kāmam evaitenāvarundhe[/FONT][/FONT] |

The puranic period resulted in geneological dynasty tables to aid creation of a social hierarchy called caste, helped by dharmashastras to enforce it...and that's the system (of sorts) we see today....and yep meddling, interpolations, wilfully twisted interpretions, etc seems to have existed to rigidify the system all along the way...

Yet its hard to say if caste was ever was as rigid in the past as it became in late colonial india (when caste started being studied as a "system" by the british) -- that's the time when people started creating caste associations to lay claims.

It was also the time ppl adopted practices of the 'upper' castes like vegetarianism to sanskritize themselves into 'higher' castes.

Plenty of opportunities seem to have existed for smart individuals or groups of them to sanskritize themselves and successfully lay varna claims.......and methinks certain interpolations actually might have happened in the colonial period, not in the puranic period...

Anyways all these things are for those interested in studying such things...its just history, and it does not interest many ppl....

but from what i understand so far, am not sure its possible to say that existence of the caste system itself is discriminatory....its the rigidity, which came to be practiced by people, that made it discriminatory....please note, in all of the above mentioning caste, it refers to occupation, not varna....there is nothing called brahmin-caste really, brahmin is only varna....

Sow.HH, you have not addressed my general question - if one can change caste when reverting to Hinduism, then why can't a brahmin change religion and revert back to Hinduism taking up S/T caste and the benefits attached to that csate? If Adivasi's can revert to Brahmin caste, why can't a brahmin revert to Hinduism to S/T caste? Thanks.

Cheers!

methinks you are kidding..

i dont;t think any brahmin is interested in taking up ST caste status .....imo, its all abt the image, as i have realised it to be (as it also happens to be with other 'castes' or other ppl)....

yeah sure, everything in hindusim evolved from tribal practices to a "developed form" over time - so we are all adivasis essentially --
whose ancestors in the mesolithic period were hunters, turned farmers in the neolithic period, and much later created what we call civilizations (though the doubt remains - are we truly civilized as we presume ourselves to be -- esp while holding on to tribal instincts / tribal identities inside our mind and assuming that tribals we see outside are uncultured or uncivilized).

Raghy, i replied to this post since you had addressed it to me. i will be refraining from posting here anymore so just letting you know that i will not be replying in case you post anything further addressed to me..

Best Wishes and God Bless.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Nachi, this is a beautiful sentiment. But it seems only lip service is given to it. Even after Adi Shankara saw the divine in a Chandala, the dalit has lived only a dalit. These high ideals are cited only when it serves a convenient purpose, you know, hypocrisy thing. In daily life, from the orthdoxy to the lay, everyone sees only the difference, nobody sees the Govinda in the other. What do you think about that?

Thank you....

Nara,

The legend is,as soon as Adi Sankara discovered the Chandala was in disguise as Lord Shiva,he fell at the divine feet of the Chandala aka Lord Shiva.And Lord Shiva vanished alongwith his dogs namely four of them indication of the four vedams.

In today's world of spiritual living,there are enough enlightened masters,who live such high ideals.It's for us to focus and get enlightened,instead of looking at things in a negative perspective,imho.

Hummaa! Music - Music Player
javascriptrofilewindow('music/song/Chandrasekara/133481')

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

.... The legend is,as soon as Adi Sankara discovered the Chandala was in disguise as Lord Shiva,he fell at the divine feet of the Chandala aka

Yes Nachi, I am aware of this part of the legend, but what do you think is the point of the legend itself. Why did Shiva come as a Chandala?

When you quoted this verse here is how you translated it:

In you and in me is Govinda,
So on whom will you show your ire?
See all as one and one as all,
Leave this difference between one and one.
​

To me, this says that we must see Govinda in everyone we see. What does that mean? How do we practice it? It seems we must treat everyone with respect and love, without seeing any difference. This is what Shiva seems to be saying in this legend.

Thanks...

 

[nachi naga]

re

Nara,

To me, this says that we must see Govinda in everyone we see. What does that mean? How do we practice it? It seems we must treat everyone with respect and love, without seeing any difference. This is what Shiva seems to be saying in this legend.

That is why,Adi Sankaras advaitham is superb amongst vedantha schools and traditions.When one realises his/her own self truly,such an acheivement of samathwam is established firmly.We start seeing our own reflections in others,as a mirror.It's by repeated birth and death cycles of life forms,we near this tathvam.

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

.... is superb amongst vedantha schools and traditions.

So, for treating people equally, this superb system has turned out to be impractical in all but possibly, just possibly, a infinitesimally microscopic number of people who see themselves in others. It seems almost all other systems have proved to be more practical in this respect than Brahminical Vedhanta schools.

Thanks.

 

[Raghy]

Very interesting conversation between Sri.Nara and Sri.Nachi Naga indeed.

Once I was very politely asked to go out (of, of course a Tamil Brahmin's house) when I mentioned my views about this 'legend'. My question was, what if the chandala was just a chandala only? How can one say that chandala may not know about 'the god in you and the god in me stuff'? I was told that the legend was true; the chandala was indeed Siva himself. My next question was, Siva had no trouble assuming chandala's form; why should the other castes treat chandala less than equally? are we better than Siva himself? The children got interested in the conversation; I was very politely reminded of my next commitment of the day! (there was none). The whole conversation started because at their lounge I saw a vivid painting of that scene - Sri.Adi Shankara with his shishyas facing the chandala with the resteless dogs.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear all,

Just want to add... I have mentioned this before in another post.
Adishankaracharaya was an incarnation of Lord Shiva himself...

Adishakaracharya was just showing to the world that even when a person reaches to the highest spiritual point he can still have traces of discriminative vision in him and this whole episode was to show everyone that knowledge can be in anyone and is verily for anyone and a worthy teacher is respected whatever his origins are.

Lord Shiva had earlier proved that age is no bar when it comes to imparting knowledge.. when He learnt the Pranava from Lord Muruga.
and in the incarnation as Adiishankaracharya He was showing that caste is no bar when it comes to imparting knowledge.

 

[Raghy]

Dear all,

Just want to add... I have mentioned this before in another post.
Adishankaracharaya was an incarnation of Lord Shiva himself...

Adishakaracharya was just showing to the world that even when a person reaches to the highest spiritual point he can still have traces of discriminative vision in him and this whole episode was to show everyone that knowledge can be in anyone and is verily for anyone and a worthy teacher is respected whatever his origins are.

Lord Shiva had earlier proved that age is no bar when it comes to imparting knowledge.. when He learnt the Pranava from Lord Muruga.
and in the incarnation as Adiishankaracharya He was showing that caste is no bar when it comes to imparting knowledge.

Sow.Sri.Renuka,

I humbly request you to kindly check the above quoted message, please. It does not add up. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sow.Sri.Renuka,

I humbly request you to kindly check the above quoted message, please. It does not add up. Thanks.

Cheers!

Dear RaghyJi,

Please kindly correct me.. I am not sure where I have gone wrong.
Is it the portion that Lord Shiva appeared in front of Adishankaracharya(who is an incarnation of Lord Shiva himself)...but thats possible because God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient.
I really cannot figure out Raghy Ji...
Please guide me.

renu