• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The supreme court judgenement on educational institutitons apply to universitites, colleges that provide secular education - or rather education in arts, science, engineering, law, etc - not to religious schools. There is no law govering religious schools as yet.

If the government has strict laws in preventing caste discrimination, then in future, it cannot ignore religious schools and institutions that propagate birth-based caste segregative discrimination -- may sound a bit futuristic now perhaps, no one knows how the wind will blow in future as awareness increases...

Constitution of India provides full liberty to every individual to practice their faith. Nobody can interfere in that.

As an example, please see what happened to a senior congress politician vayalar Ravi in Guruvayur temple. Since Vayalar Ravi married a Christian, their son Unni Krishnan was not considered as Hindu by the temple priests. After his visit, the temple was cleansed with `holi waters'. Nobody was able to prevent it as the courts refused to give any direction to the temple priests as they considered it is beyond the scope of judiciary. Famous Singer Jesudoss is unable to enter Guruvayur temple.

However Sabari Mala Iyappan temple allows all religious people but they do gender discrimination.

No body can question the private practice of religious instititutions in India and Constitution gives protection to such practices. Constitution was authored by dalith leader Dr Ambedkar only.

All the best
 
Constitution of India provides full liberty to every individual to practice their faith. Nobody can interfere in that.

As an example, please see what happened to a senior congress politician vayalar Ravi in Guruvayur temple. Since Vayalar Ravi married a Christian, their son Unni Krishnan was not considered as Hindu by the temple priests. After his visit, the temple was cleansed with `holi waters'. Nobody was able to prevent it as the courts refused to give any direction to the temple priests as they considered it is beyond the scope of judiciary. Famous Singer Jesudoss is unable to enter Guruvayur temple.

However Sabari Mala Iyappan temple allows all religious people but they do gender discrimination.

No body can question the private practice of religious instititutions in India and Constitution gives protection to such practices. Constitution was authored by dalith leader Dr Ambedkar only.

All the best

freedom to practice faith is not the same as freedom to practice caste discrimination.

caste discrimination is clearly illegal.

wrt temples, i do understand the situation how it is in the present time.

that is why i used the word "futuristic".

in future, as awareness increases, i do think such discriminative practices will be dumped (with a clearer definition by law). and i do not think such a future is far...

in the present time, we see only elderly people holding on to such discriminative caste ideologies; not the younger ones (minus the right wing folk ofcourse).

no man has any right to prevent an other man's access to god.

god is not a monopoly.

and its a shame to think that some people can justify legal monopoly for GOD / access to GOD.
 
Last edited:
i do understand the situation how it is in the present time.

that is why i used the word "futuristic".

in future, as awareness increases, i do think such discriminative practices will be dumped. and i do not think such a future is far...

in the present time, we see only elderly people holding on to such discriminative caste ideologies; not the younger ones (minus the right wing folk ofcourse).

no man has any right to prevent an other man's access to god.

god is not a monopoly.

and its a shame to think that some people can justify legal monopoly for GOD and access to GOD.

`God has no religion' - Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law.

Let us follow the father of the Nation

All the best
 
`God has no religion' - Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law.

Let us follow the father of the Nation

All the best

sir,

my belief in scriptures is not that deep....my belief is that god is for all, god is in all.

even if perumal himself comes before me, i can still question him - because he is my own; and surely am willing to be corrected where i am wrong.

now i only wish paramacharya were alive...but next time i visit india, will definitely go to kanchi to clear the many doubts that plague me..

just yesterday my father was telling me how he felt while doing shastanga namaskaram to paramacharya...not knowing what to say at all, i quietly put down the phone....
 
Dear Shri RVR, Greetings:

First some clarifications.

You say:
RVR said:
Constitution was authored by dalith leader Dr Ambedkar only.

What is the significance of this fact in this context sir?

Ambedkar was the chairman of the drafting committee. There were six other members. Among them was the jurist Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer. I think at least 4 others were Brahmins by birth.

No body can question the private practice of religious instititutions".
Not true. For example, if any institution, public or private, practices "untouchablity" you can question it to the extent of taking them to court. You are not allowed to even say some words, like "par...n". Another example is denial of temple entry based on caste -- no can do, according to law. So, freedom of "private practice" is not absolute.


Let each group follow there own beliefs. Why do you bother?
Why can't these beliefs be discussed? If we are to take "why bother" approach, we might as well close down this site.

As long as each group doesn't interfere in the other group, why do you bother? Let each group manage its affair effectively and efficiently.
Is this what the future of India is supposed to be -- disparate groups, each managing its own affairs, not interfering in other's affairs? No society can function this way. Our own did not function this way. For starters, the upper castes relied on the toil of the lower ones.

Leaving that aside for a moment, I think you are missing the whole point. Let us not talk about the worst practices that one can get away with as long as the aggrieved party is unwilling or unable to bring the long arm of the law to bear.

In stead, let us talk about the best practices all of us must strive for and encourage, and, we must refuse to accept anything less. For this, we should not try to build walls between castes and not care what they do within each wall and just hope it is efficient and effective. We must encourage tearing down these walls and build trust, acceptance and love among all.

Don't just throw up your hands and say it is impossible because this, that, or other caste will never give up their caste identity, or this, that or other politician will never voluntarily forsake caste-based political advantage.

Let us see what we can do in our own lives, each one of us. Let us stop looking what others are doing or not doing. Let us first get our own thinking and action right.


`God has no religion' - Mahatma Gandhi
.......
Let us follow the father of the Nation

Many great leaders have given many great speeches. MLK's "I have a dream" speech is one of them. But, even greater was his Vietnam speech he gave one year to the day before his life was cut short by an assassin's bullet.
.
Dr. B.R.Ambedkar gave one such rousing speech in Lahore to Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, a Dalit entity committed to Hinduism. In this speech BRA announced that he was leaving the Hindu fold.

This led Gandhi to publish an article with the title "A Vindication of Caste", in The Harijan magazine. Later, BRA published a rebuttal to Gandhi's article.

All three, the speech, Gandhi's article, and BRA's rebuttal, are available at MSE | The Annihilation of Caste - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.

It is instructive to read all three. But if you don't have the time or the inclination, I ask you to at least read Gandhi's article (Appendix I) and BRA's response (Appendix II).

Here are a few telling passages from BRA's response to Gandhi:

  • I have argued in my speech that a society based on Varna or Caste is a society which is based on a wrong relationship. I had hoped that the Mahatma would attempt to demolish my argument. But instead of doing that, he has merely reiterated his belief in Chaturvarnya without disclosing the ground on which it is based.
  • Must a man follow his ancestral calling even if it does not suit his capacities, even when it has ceased to be profitable? Must a man live by his ancestral calling even if he finds it to be immoral?
  • while I am prepared to bear with the imperfections and shortcomings of the society in which I may be destined to labour, I feel I should not consent to live in a society which cherishes wrong ideals, or a society which, having right ideals, will not consent to bring its social life into conformity with those ideals.
  • For one honest Brahmin preaching against Caste and Shastras because his practical instinct and moral conscience cannot support a conviction in them, there are hundreds who break Caste and trample upon the Shastras every day, but who are the most fanatic upholders of the theory of Caste and the sanctity of the Shastras.
Cheers!
 
Prof Nara ji,

My replies are in blue.

Dear Shri RVR, Greetings:

First some clarifications.

You say:


What is the significance of this fact in this context sir?

Ambedkar was the chairman of the drafting committee. There were six other members. Among them was the jurist Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer. I think at least 4 others were Brahmins by birth.

Not true. For example, if any institution, public or private, practices "untouchablity" you can question it to the extent of taking them to court. You are not allowed to even say some words, like "par...n". Another example is denial of temple entry based on caste -- no can do, according to law. So, freedom of "private practice" is not absolute.


Why can't these beliefs be discussed? If we are to take "why bother" approach, we might as well close down this site.

Is this what the future of India is supposed to be -- disparate groups, each managing its own affairs, not interfering in other's affairs? No society can function this way. Our own did not function this way. For starters, the upper castes relied on the toil of the lower ones.

Leaving that aside for a moment, I think you are missing the whole point. Let us not talk about the worst practices that one can get away with as long as the aggrieved party is unwilling or unable to bring the long arm of the law to bear.

In stead, let us talk about the best practices all of us must strive for and encourage, and, we must refuse to accept anything less. For this, we should not try to build walls between castes and not care what they do within each wall and just hope it is efficient and effective. We must encourage tearing down these walls and build trust, acceptance and love among all.

Don't just throw up your hands and say it is impossible because this, that, or other caste will never give up their caste identity, or this, that or other politician will never voluntarily forsake caste-based political advantage.

Let us see what we can do in our own lives, each one of us. Let us stop looking what others are doing or not doing. Let us first get our own thinking and action right.

It is a great honour to lead the constitution committe and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru showed his progressiveness even at that time to request a Dalith leader of Dr Ambedkar calibre to give leadership to the team. Dr Ambedkar also accepted it and did a great job. I earnestly feel that there is nothing wrong in the constitution which is not at all discriminatory.

The problem is in implementation. It is unfortunate that corruption and misuse of power is still alive even after sixty years of adopting the constitution. Forturnately daliths are given power in the highest judiciary postings also and today the Chief Justice of India, Sri K.V.Balakrishnan hails from the dalith community. The Prime Minister of India is not a Hindu. Vice President of India is not a Hindu.

Brahmins have vocated the posts of power both at Central and state governements long back. Today no member of TB community is a member of Parliment in both houses representing Tamilnadu. In assembly name sake JJ and S.Ve.Sekar are there but both are wedded to Dravidian philosophies and are no way connected to TB community.


Agraharams have practically vansihed in Tamilnadu and TB community is not practicing untouchability. Daliths come and eat at my own house and I also visit dalith houses without any discrimination. We are all moving to honesty and sincerity rathar than caste, religion, language or race.

As a person moved out of an orthodox agraharam environment, I feel it is great change and I am sure further changes will take place in the future also.

Many great leaders have given many great speeches. MLK's "I have a dream" speech is one of them. But, even greater was his Vietnam speech he gave one year to the day before his life was cut short by an assassin's bullet.
.
Dr. B.R.Ambedkar gave one such rousing speech in Lahore to Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, a Dalit entity committed to Hinduism. In this speech BRA announced that he was leaving the Hindu fold.

This led Gandhi to publish an article with the title "A Vindication of Caste", in The Harijan magazine. Later, BRA published a rebuttal to Gandhi's article.

All three, the speech, Gandhi's article, and BRA's rebuttal, are available at MSE | The Annihilation of Caste - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.

It is instructive to read all three. But if you don't have the time or the inclination, I ask you to at least read Gandhi's article (Appendix I) and BRA's response (Appendix II).

Here are a few telling passages from BRA's response to Gandhi:

  • I have argued in my speech that a society based on Varna or Caste is a society which is based on a wrong relationship. I had hoped that the Mahatma would attempt to demolish my argument. But instead of doing that, he has merely reiterated his belief in Chaturvarnya without disclosing the ground on which it is based.
  • Must a man follow his ancestral calling even if it does not suit his capacities, even when it has ceased to be profitable? Must a man live by his ancestral calling even if he finds it to be immoral?
  • while I am prepared to bear with the imperfections and shortcomings of the society in which I may be destined to labour, I feel I should not consent to live in a society which cherishes wrong ideals, or a society which, having right ideals, will not consent to bring its social life into conformity with those ideals.
  • For one honest Brahmin preaching against Caste and Shastras because his practical instinct and moral conscience cannot support a conviction in them, there are hundreds who break Caste and trample upon the Shastras every day, but who are the most fanatic upholders of the theory of Caste and the sanctity of the Shastras.
Cheers!

Personally let brahmins practice anything. Let him follow his own practices privately and there is no harm in it.

Publicly brahmins are not practicing untouchablity. Publicly brahmins are not opposing temple entry to Daliths or any other community.

As a community, Brahmins should place honesty and sincerity as the goal in public life and should not thrive for money, material or power to rule.

In our village, we are trying to unite all communities inspite of opposition from certain caste hindus. We are working hard to change the mindset of caste hindus to give up discrimination of daliths and we are determined to achieve it at any cost. May be our village is small place in the country but still we are going to set an example for others to follow.

All the best
 
Last edited:
Dear Smt HH Ji,

Are you saying we are living happily ? Or we WERE living happily in the past? With caste or without caste?

No, I just wanted to have an Idea, how it would be without caste, as we don't have any real account of caste-less Hindu society, Thats all.


Regards
 
Smt HH,

PVR, you really disappoint in repeating the same questions when answers have already been provided. Already replied to Renu how people were made into untouchables.
Thanks, I will look for those replies.

I do not know what kind of a man wud think that an outcaste was glad to be an untouchables in the past.
Proportionately one fifth of the population, could not migrate to other part to survive? when our population was not swelling like a balloon now and the resources were aplenty, and when they did not have land in their possession. In this context, why not those big population just call others, 'untouchables' and build their own settlement at some other place.

I also dont understand how they were controlled in those times, without allowing them into their society and without touching them.

Well you anyways have a fixed basis that caste system is great. So guys like you can go ahead and keep the system. And people like me can go ahead and create awareness amongst everyone who practices it.

Lets see in which path the future generations go...
Yes. At the time of joining this forum, I never thought about "caste", but due to the 'discussions', i am beginning to realize the merits, without which, grievances of the oppressed people, would not have been highlighted. They would have been another type of workers like in any other country. They would be living without untouchable tags but would have been treated as one.

I pity our future generation, who will be fighting for food & water irrespective of castes. Our scientists already made majority of our land infertile (due to the Green Revolution!).
Green Revolution in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Regards
 
Dear Sri Nara,

Dr. B.R.Ambedkar gave one such rousing speech in Lahore to Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, a Dalit entity committed to Hinduism. In this speech BRA announced that he was leaving the Hindu fold.
It appears that from the introduction section that, BRD could not deliver this speach, On seeing this draft sent to the committee of Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal (Caste Destruction Society), they revoked their invitation to him. Later, he published his work as a book himself.

**thanks for the link, i am reading this.
"
The Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal was founded in Lahore in 1922, as an offshoot of the more militantly anti-caste wing of the Arya Samaj. Members pledged themselves to a program of anti-caste propaganda, coupled with interdining and intermarriage. Except for their more radical opposition to caste, they did not differ greatly from the Arya Samaj's position on most issues. However, in 1924 their activities brought them into conflict with the Arya Samaj, and the Mandal eventually broke with the Arya Samaj. The Mandal's need to rely on upper-caste Arya Samajis was a persistent problem. An early (1926) and sympathetic report on their progress is illustrative:


"The Mandal has been able to enlist about 500 members from nearly all the provinces of India. In addition to numerous unimportant intercaste marriages there have been celebrated about a dozen and a half intercaste marriages of note among persons of the so-called high castes. To break caste is not an ordinary thing. Even the greatest social reformers have been able to do very little practical work in this direction. Therefore the work which the Mandal has been able to do through intercaste marriages is not so little as it appears from the surface. The Mandal has distributed tracts and pamphlets in Hindi and Urdu in large numbers and written many articles in papers on this baneful system. It has performed the marriages of many newly converted girls [i.e., untouchable-caste girls who had been through a special 'shuddhi' or purification ritual to make them part of the caste system] with Hindu young men. Every Hindu who takes a vow to marry himself or his sons and daughters out of his caste can be a member of the Mandal on paying rupees two as annual subscription."
Regards
 
... , i am beginning to realize the merits, without which, grievances of the oppressed people, would not have been highlighted.

Wow dear PVR, is this what you are getting after thinking about caste? Do you really think their oppression got highlighted because of the "tag"?

No PVR, brutal oppression against them is the reason their plight got highlighted. Any time there is oppression sooner or later there will be push back. The greater the oppression greater will be the push back -- tag or no tag. This is what bloody revolutions are made of.

The reason Hindu society avoided bloody revolution is the hierarchical nature of the system that left them numerically out numbered. Further, they were denied any access to sources of power, such as, money and education, and were brainwashed into inferiority.

Still, some rebelled. Look at the Tamil literature and history for evidence. The hallowed Nandanar story is not about Brahmin magnanimity, they burnt him alive and built a cockamamie story around it and made him a saint. The Dalit activism we see now is a product of their education on the one hand, and direct personal experience of humiliation on the other.


.. They would have been another type of workers like in any other country. They would be living without untouchable tags but would have been treated as one.
Do you really think it is the "untouchable" tag the Dalits are fighting against, and not the way they were and still are treated? Please, just think about what you are saying for a moment.

Thanks...
 
... .... On seeing this draft sent to the committee of Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal (Caste Destruction Society), they revoked their invitation to him. Later, he published his work as a book himself.

Dear PVR, Yes, this is correct. He never gave the speech. JPT asked him to take out the part about leaving the Hindu fold, but BRA refused. So they disinvited him.

JPT wanted the varna/caste to go away, but keep "Hinduism" -- you know, throw out the bathwater, not the baby. But BRA thought without varna/caste there is no Hinduism -- there is only bathwater, no baby. BRA argued that for varna/caste system to go away we have to remove the concept of poorva-janma karma -- and without it there is no Hinduism.

This was about 60 years ago. After independence, constitution that guarantees equal protection under the law, caste Hinuds still want to prevent Dalits from entering their hallowed temples, and at the same time they lament that the Dalits are being lured by other religions.

If you want them in your fold, perhaps you can try treating them nicely first?

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Nara,

Wow dear PVR, is this what you are getting after thinking about caste? Do you really think their oppression got highlighted because of the "tag"?

No PVR, brutal oppression against them is the reason their plight got highlighted. Any time there is oppression sooner or later there will be push back. The greater the oppression greater will be the push back -- tag or no tag. This is what bloody revolutions are made of.

The reason Hindu society avoided bloody revolution is the hierarchical nature of the system that left them numerically out numbered. Further, they were denied any access to sources of power, such as, money and education, and were brainwashed into inferiority.

Still, some rebelled. Look at the Tamil literature and history for evidence. The hallowed Nandanar story is not about Brahmin magnanimity, they burnt him alive and built a cockamamie story around it and made him a saint. The Dalit activism we see now is a product of their education on the one hand, and direct personal experience of humiliation on the other.


Do you really think it is the "untouchable" tag the Dalits are fighting against, and not the way they were and still are treated? Please, just think about what you are saying for a moment.

Thanks...

I partially agree with you and i want to post a lengthy one, my experience with dalits for a decade (long back) paints a different picture. I am presently in a hurry to logout, hence I would post it tomorrow.

Regards
 
Dear Shri RVR sir, Greetings!

... Personally let brahmins practice anything. Let him follow his own practices privately and there is no harm in it.

No Sir, I don't think you will "Personally let brahmins practice anything" -- for instance I am sure you will not let brahmins beat their wives in their own personal lives. This is why societies have developed codes of conduct and behavior, even those practiced in the the privacy of their individual lives. Untouchability falls into this category. We cannot just say, "Let him follow his own practices privately..."

....Publicly brahmins are not practicing untouchablity. Publicly brahmins are not opposing temple entry to Daliths or any other community.
They do, unfortunately. Did you not cite the Kerala minister's son at Guruvayur temple? Further, they do practice untouchability in Brahmin matams. I have seen it with my own two eyes, hopefully they were not my two lying eyes.

Daliths come and eat at my own house and I also visit dalith houses without any discrimination
Personal anecdotes are just that. On an another level, "dalits eating, and we visiting" is as low a bar as it can get. The bar should be, I don't know and I don't care whether he/she is a dalit. I know we are not there yet because caste plays such a huge role in our society. But at least in our own private ways each of us must strive in that direction and not be satisfied with just visiting their homes.

BTW, it is not just Dalit, for orthodox TB's all NB's might as well be Dalits anyway, unless they have the thing that makes the world go around. This is why they all join together when it comes to "Brahmin Bashing" even as they fight amongst themselves at other times.

Cheers!
 
Personally let brahmins practice anything. Let him follow his own practices privately and there is no harm in it.

Publicly brahmins are not practicing untouchablity. Publicly brahmins are not opposing temple entry to Daliths or any other community.


Nobody can practice caste discrimination "privately" or "publicly".

Its a shame to think that one can practice things privately and get away with it.

Am glad for the conversations on this thread. I always thot that everyone is against caste discrimination...i also thot that hindu shastras are not responsible for it and i was foolish to think that hindusim welcomes all to its fold.

Yes sir hinduism is all that i had imagined it to be, except for some mutts and some brahmins..and its really disappointing that they are like that..

As a community, Brahmins should place honesty and sincerity as the goal in public life and should not thrive for money, material or power to rule.
i do not think anyone today can live without money or materials. why think in terms of ideas that cannot conform with the reality of living life...

In our village, we are trying to unite all communities inspite of opposition from certain caste hindus. We are working hard to change the mindset of caste hindus to give up discrimination of daliths and we are determined to achieve it at any cost. May be our village is small place in the country but still we are going to set an example for others to follow.

All the best
Not able to comment without knowing the complete situation. But from what you described on this thread alone, sir i feel your idea of uniting people is a pipe dream. You cannot keep 'dalits' tagged as 'dalits', and then expect everyone to give up discrimination. If you do wish that people give up discrimination against them, why not ask mutts to do that first..and then ask others...
 
JPT wanted the varna/caste to go away, but keep "Hinduism" -- you know, throw out the bathwater, not the baby. But BRA thought without varna/caste there is no Hinduism -- there is only bathwater, no baby. BRA argued that for varna/caste system to go away we have to remove the concept of poorva-janma karma -- and without it there is no Hinduism.

sir,

ambedkar was obviously going by the popular mutt version of hinduism.

only wish he had tried to understand hindu sampradayams that have been in existence since the times earlier than adi shankara, or tried to understand hinduism before the dharmashastra period, and looked at various changes that happened over time..also wish he had spoken to non-shankara ekadandi or dashanami sampradayams...

but am curious to know this - why did ambedkar create a new version of buddhism called navayana - why did he not integrate people into the regular forms of buddhism like mahayana and hinayana.

each time someone follows navayana, it still identifies him as a former 'dalit'. if ambedkar wanted those differences to go away, it wud have been so much better if he had integrated people into regular buddhism.

and more importantly, why did ambedkar create some hatered-sort-of-dislike for hinduism with his 22 vows: Dalit Buddhist movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia esp, this point: "I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion".

i mean, hinduism is such a wide term for so many practices....just bcoz some mutts and some brahmins uphold birth-based caste discrimination as dharma, that certainly does not make the entire religion as "harmful for humanity" or "based on inequality".

and truly, why shd so-called 'dalits' adopt any other religion. hindu practices are their very own.
 
Dear Sri Nara,

Dear Sri Nara,
I am presently in a hurry to logout, hence I would post it tomorrow.

Regards

I am sorry, I could not post as I promised due to some work requirement.

I have to give a small detail, pls bear with me.,

In My village all the castes including Dalits, whose population was also nearly equal to Bs, were there. In all castes very few were rich, (incl Ds) and rest were caring their own affairs. D's colony was next to Agraharam, and they have to pass through our street to reach the main road or main market. It was very normal to spot them in our street. They were just another pedestrians, more often they can be found in conversation with other Bs.

Our Agraharam, had few families belong to other cast and religion. Boys like me, had many friends from all sections and would go to forms as a group to take bath in the irrigation well every day morning. We were bunch of boys, only few of us were B's.I still remember that during that time, they were treated with suspicion as few of them frequently stole things.

I also remember the black thread around some of their neck, which was so impressive, and gave a 'fearless' feeling, I along with few of our B boys wore that one. They used to tell 'மந்திரிச்சி கட்டுனது". My G.Father used to scold us whenever he got angry "**ப்பய மாதிரி, கழுத்தில ஒரு கயிரு, நல்லா சுத்து, நீயெல்லாம் பன்னிய மேய்க்கத்தான் லாயக்கு". Actually I attended school only to avoid this which became a nightmare. But since, he himself was not a religious person, he never was serious. I came to understand its significance after reading the link provided by you.

The point is, that time, we did not have this kind of rigidness atleast among middle and lower middle class society. it was still the same when We migrated to other bigger village, where Bs were very few , and we had not seen any untouchables, eventhough many 'black threads around the neck' could be seen. I found them strong and like me few of B' Boys try be strong with the company of them. After 7 more years we migrated to city, you know, nobody bother what the neighbor does.

Later I had many friends who also came from such villages had similar experiences.

There is no question about tolerating, when a fellow human being is treated as an untouchable. With the samples I have, was it really wide spread that time than now, esp. in south? You may think, did you ever invited inside your house? They would not cross the front Mutram. Besides, we never spent time in home. At that time, We never thought its so important to invite somebody inside the house to prove the closeness. Today, we invite, socialize with all friends without seeing or caring the caste.

I also feel, due to the fact that many of their traditional jobs are automated, its high time to shed their identity.

I found this link,

Tamil Nadu's Dalit saga

My views are like this, this society is not cruel as individuals but collectively they take a different face because of the other interests.

Caste less Hindu society is not possible* as the society is formed taken from the scriptures recommendations, which attained its present form and no amount of Brahmin effort will make Ds into the main stream or inter-dining or intercaste marriages which was tried for the centuries (in the link attached by you too) is not going to make them into the touchable category as long as they keep the Dalit tag. Definitely, Brahmins were used as a soft balancing factor to kill two bird with one stone. 1. Disintegrate Hindus 2) Keep the Dalits where they were all along. But, now the Brahmin factor was found out to be a false target by Dalit themselves, there are lot of atrocities found in the recent history than anytime before, esp in south. No caste Hindu is doing as per the shastras or scriptures. They do out of the age old social order by profession.

Now such professions like washing, burning the corpse (electric cremation), fishing etc etc is taken over by the machines or industries. They don't have to do that jobs.

a small inclusion.

The most obvious sign of this oppression is the two-glass system. Teashops keep separate glasses for untouchables and Dalits because at the heart of untouchability is the notion of “ritual pollution.” People who perform certain functions like disposing of carcasses or cleaning latrines are considered polluted. This is the central argument of untouchability. Of course, as Shyama said a lot of things have changed and they have changed for the better, largely as a result of public action.
There are an incredible plethora of laws on this. You have a law on the abolition of manual scavanging. Every municipal corporation in the country employs the scavagers and denies them officially. They are there because someone has to clear the shit. On the other hand a state like Kerala has no scavengers; they did not pass a law but there was this dignity and self-respect movement that did away with it. Novelists in the ‘60s wrote powerful books; The Son of a Scavenger was one such book. Kerala has serious caste problems and serious Dalit problems but public action and a conscious citizenry make a big difference.


Dalits in India 2000 | Asia Society
Since they were differentiated by their profession alone, their identity as will disappear rapidly if the govt stops asking caste everywhere. They can move up and move up humbly atleast this is the basic character a civilized person should exhibit that too a person who has been an untouchable for so long. By changing their profession they will automatically dissolve in the main society. But, they need to dis-integrate and remove the print which is on them as "DALITS", and move up the social ladder. Its a hard pill.As long as they paint themselves with this color, they will be different from others.

Sir, IMHO, caste-less Hindu society (or groupless) is not possible unless we shed our Hindu way of life. It could have been easy if there were no other religion like Buddhism, Islam, Christianity. Since, the outcasts or society made, I wonder how it would be if there is no other religion exists in India. They can not declare themselves out of Hinduism as Hinduism is not a religion. So, there will be a way to absorb inside the society, which we have to find but definitely not with force. I also feel there is a fundamental difference in South Dalits & Dalits in other states. (which requires more information - I feel south dalits are based on the profession and others are specific tribes. I am not sure now.)

Denouncing religion (way of life) will not keep Hindus neutral, invariably, they will be joining to other religions based on its marketing power and their own confident level towards the life. I am sure, due to the rising cost and the force of materialistic inclination, the miseries will be increasing forever. So, it would be a very bad idea to ask them to shed Hindu way of life, making them a easy prey. Instead, its upto individual dalits or dalits families to come up and join the main society. In brief they have to shed their identity with their past profession. Every push as a community will set them back as long as it remains a Hindu country. It is still possible to live like a Bali Hindu with the divisions, a colorful life with the varna interchangeable.

Priests should find a way to include the outcasts and milechas inside the Hindu fold. Like in other religion, Why not?


:)

Cheers

* is it possible?
 
Dear PVR, Greetings!

....
In My village all the castes including Dalits, whose population was also nearly equal to Bs, were there.


Personal anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. When we are growing up we are too young to even notice the oppression that is just below the placid or even serene surface. In villages, for centuries, the brahmins lived out of the toil of others. Irrespective of caste, most were not rich. But the poor had to work, either as farm workers, washerman, barber, or whatever. But the brahmins were taken care without having to do any serious work. Here, let me cite something that was written earlier:
அறுவடைக்காலத்தில் களத்து மேட்டில் வைத்தே வந்த நெல்லில் கணக்கு பார்த்து இவ்வளவு நெல் Dhobi க்கு இவ்வளவு நெல் பூ கொண்டு வந்து கொடுக்கும் பண்டாரத்துக்கு, இவ்வளவு நெல் barber க்கு என்று கொடுத்துவிட்டு மீதத்தை தான் வீட்டுக்கு கொண்டு வருவார்கள்.
The funny thing is, this is upside down. Those who toiled is the ones who should be giving these out to others and take the remaining home. Instead, they have to take what is doled out to them.

When things changed, it was the Brahmins who left the villages in a hurry. They lived in these villages for centuries, and yet, when the largess was gone, it did not take even two generations for the villages to be emptied of Brahmins. Today we wax nostalgic about the serene village life, even though we left it without a second thought when the privileges were not there anymore.

Thanks to Frontline Viswanathan, we have documented account of the oppression including murder, wholesale destruction of property, and what not, that is still being perpetrated. Any tranquility you see in the countryside is just an illusion. There is a new and exciting Dalit writer called Bama. Her short and critically acclaimed novel called Karukku is an eye opener.

"The Untouchable Citizen" by Hugo Gorringe, presents a fascinating look at the present day Dalit activism. Is it not ironic that Hindu society condemned them based on their identity, and now, when they have found their voice and want to take pride in their identity, we say to them that they must abandon their identity as a way out? Even more ironic is the very same people who want them to relinquish their Dalit identity are quite proud of their own identity and want to preserve it at any cost.

Caste less Hindu society is not possible...
This is the conclusion Dr. B.R.Ambedkar came to. That is why he abandoned Hiunduism. Religion, like varna/caste, has no legitimate purpose that cannot be had in its absence. So, I will not shed any tears if both caste, and the religion that fosters it, are cast into the dustbin of history.


.... no amount of Brahmin effort will make Ds into the main stream or inter-dining or intercaste marriages which was tried for the centuries (in the link attached by you too) is not going to make them
I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying inter-dining and inter-marrying were tried for centuries?


...But, they need to dis-integrate and remove the print which is on them as "DALITS", and move up the social ladder. Its a hard pill.As long as they paint themselves with this color, they will be different from others.
All the onus is on them. I have seen this, "let them do this", or "let them do that", "they must act humble", "they have to shed label", as if they made a choice to be called "dalit" i.e. oppressed or broken people.

Dalits did not become radicalized all of a sudden with no reason. People like Kakkan, Ilayaperumal, were congressmen. They played along hoping for reform to lift them up. It is the continued suppression and exploitation that has driven them to seek Dalit based solidarity and fight back. Asking them to humbly seek other professions and move up only reveals the complete lack of understanding of the forces that drove them to borderline radicalism. The rest of the Hindu society must thank them for not taking their radicalism to extremism of the violent kind we see from jihadists.

... They can not declare themselves out of Hinduism as Hinduism is not a religion.
This is just BJP/RSS kind of talk. If the Hindus do not want the Dalits to leave Hinduism they must find a way to treat them with respect. Otherwise, they have no right to criticize others of marketing tactics, or economic inducement or any such thing. In most cases the Dalits leave Hinduism as a form of protest. If they take some money doing it, all the better for them.

Cheers!
 
Dear HH, greetings!

..also wish he had spoken to non-shankara ekadandi or dashanami sampradayams...

Whatever may be the theoretical position on Varna for these sects, they are still offering a karma based religious doctrine which is at the foundation of the ill-treatment Dalits continue to receive at the hands of Hindus. Also, from a practical stand point, I suppose BRA's view was that only a clear break with the religion that humiliated them as a matter of daily routine, is a necessary prerequisite for rebuilding self-confidence and self-worth.

...each time someone follows navayana, it still identifies him as a former 'dalit'. if ambedkar wanted those differences to go away, it wud have been so much better if he had integrated people into regular buddhism.
The broken people must first be restored. Part of that is for them to derive some pride from their identity. I see nothing wrong with it. All the caste Hindus must first relinquish their caste identity before asking Dalits to do so as well. Long last they get some meager restorations, for which they get derided. Now everybody is ready to give them advice. They should be the last to be asked to shed their identity.

There was no "regular" Buddism in India. He had some contact with the Theravada Buddists of Sri Lanka. He was in fact formally converted by a Buddha monk. So, in that sense, he did not start anything new I suppose.

I also don't think BRA accepted everything of Mahayana and Theravada. They believed in karma and some form of reincarnation. These were anathema for BRA. He probably wanted to reconnect with what he believed to be the Gauthama Budda's tenets.

and more importantly, why did ambedkar create some hatered-sort-of-dislike for hinduism..
I do not think he was creating any hatred. Hatred was already there, from Hindus towards the Dalits. He was only reacting to the hatred.

....just bcoz some mutts and some brahmins uphold birth-based caste discrimination as dharma, that certainly does not make the entire religion as "harmful for humanity" or "based on inequality".
Dear HH, it is not just "some", the entirety of Hindu identity is caste based. Even Arya Samaj, which is supposed to be reformed Hinduism praises the Varna system and conducts vedic havans. The Hindu society poured its hatred upon a group of people for centuries, and now they are pushing back.

and truly, why shd so-called 'dalits' adopt any other religion. hindu practices are their very own.
No, they are not. Hindu practices are practices of Hindus only. BRA has explained his reasons for rejecting Hinduism in The Annihilation of Caste.

I wish nobody follows any religion at all and all of us are one big happy family. But, in the meantime, we need to find a way to breakdown the walls of division as much as possible. Religion is no help in this regard.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Nara,

Before coming to your response, I would like to get clarified few things.
If The broken men concept of BRA (where is Shudra) is taken as toto, there is a difference between the outcastes there and TN's profession based divisions.
Besides, Pallar, Paraiyar, Sakliar are having a caste, only AdiDravida communty is a tribe. They were treated untouchables . On what basis these 3 who are the majority, become untouchable assume Dalit tag.
There are people who does the lowest jobs who are within the society and there are tribes who untouchables who are outside the society. In reality, now we are seeing the low level professionals families have come under Dalit tag when they are not coming under untouchable category.

Why BRA chose Buddhism which also has caste division, while he had a choice of islam and Christianity where there is no caste.

Regards
 
Last edited:
Dear Prof. Nara,
When we are growing up we are too young to even notice the oppression that is just below the placid
.
Do you really think so, aren't the young minds who can see the differences more clearly, when one is not confined inside one's "castle".
[/quote] In villages, for centuries, the brahmins lived out of the toil of others. Irrespective of caste, most were not rich. But the poor had to work, either as farm workers, washerman, barber, or whatever. But the brahmins were taken care without having to do any serious work.[/quote]
I beg to differ here, that may be assumed when there were only few families around, but the fact was more than 80% out of 500 odd B families which is not a small sample were not only the lower middle class category, were doing all kind of jobs. FYI, there were only two small temples and a count of around 10 brahmanas all it takes for fulfilling vedic rituals or requirements. About Dhobies and navies were only engaged by elite few. There are few land owners and a form workers who were taken care by the land owners at the time of distress. (Land owners from all castes). My father mentioned at one time there was a severe draught and most of the males went to other places to find jobs and most of them returned after it was over. Still, I can see a grand son of a B' landlord doing office boy job. So, migration happened and happening as and when they get opportunity. Huge percentage of Bs did not even go beyond Higher second or PUC in a hurry to join a job to shed the poverty.

Regards
 
I attached here a news of a cobra doing archana to Sivalinga during Surya Grahanam. It tells me God accept pure love from anyone even from snake.

raman,

i think, the problem is not with God. i think, the problem is with humans.

the seeds of hatred and discrimination were sown millenium ago. our current generation is reaping the 'reward', i think.

my own feeling, is that a significant number of us TBs are in a mode of denial.

my gut feeling, and i may be absolutely wrong, is that the bulk of the denial and racist attitudes is bulwarked by our own lower middle and poorer brethren, with tacit underhand approval coming from the upper middle class, who on their own accord, have for practical purposes abandoned the apartheidness of brahminism long ago.

the upper class of TBs never cared, except using the religion and casteism to feather their nest. haven't we all heard of
பெரியாத்து சமாச்சாரம் in our young days, when the chief வாத்தியார், right in the middle of the family function, packs up his bags and hands it over to his chela?

the upper middle class, i think, were sitting on the fence, as many of them are recent promotions thanks to upward mobility. maybe tinged with some guilt, they do not pass on either traditions or loyalty to the tribe, to their children. they are more concerned about status and moola than caste.

so that brings us back to the lmc and pc. these folks have only the pride of the caste to sustain them, i think. the economic boom is passing them by. there is no support from government, public at large, and above all from their own well-off brethren, who secretly look down upon them, and use them for menial jobs as cooks and care takers. i suspect the hatred that our own poor brethren, have for the well-off among us, is of himalayan proportions. this, from frank chats with poonul wearing servers at weddings and chavundis.

just look at the shared agony of the folks, who want ONLY brahmin cooks and caretakers in this own very forum. i can sense their anger and frustration, at being in between the rock and a hard place - the indelible prejudice imparted from the parents to whom they have an absolute sense of duty & the ultimate reality of today's market place.

my personal peeve, is that the upwardly mobile in us, would like a permanent underclass of TBs, to cater to our increasing needs re cooks, caretaking our elderly parents and above all giving us a 'sense of comfort at helping out a poor brahmin (sic)'.

i think, each one of us, need to re-examine our views, and while what nara says in terms of remedy may not be possible, it probably is easier on us, to ease our prejudices, so that our present day life is less stressful - here i am thinking of the 70+ year old gentlemen, who is sick with BP & frustration, at the instance of a 39+ unmarried son. he has taken upon himself to feel guilty at letting down his son re finding a spouse for him. had he loosened the rules, maybe ie maybe, he could found a wonderful spouse from other tamil tribe or other brahmin groups.. instead of his wasting his seed away to middle age and perhaps posterity.

it may be an interesting exercise, to categorize the participants of the swayamvarams per economic groups. my gut feeling is that the bulk of the reps would be from the lower & poorer groups. i don't know why, but just a feeling, that is all. it reinforces my belief, that as a TB tribe, we abandon our own first, in order to seek further enhancements for ourselves, our children and our kin, in that order.

a gentleman, remarked that i am 'western' influenced in my thoughts. while i can see where he is coming from, as he evinced a keen vedic interpretation of some obscure methodology, to reinforce, i imagine prejudices, in the name of tradition. what we don't realize is that, we are ultimately, by not being inclusive, causing a grave logic dysfunction in modern hinduism.

i am thankful thatn Ambedkar did not convert to christianity or islam. that would be threatening to us. just look at our response to islam, here or elsewhere. more bound by fear and apprehension, based on history. when insulted, by DK and such, we retort that these would not do likewise to the muslims. why should we not rise up in anger and gather a vigilante group? we do not have the sauve clout which indian xtianity exerts.

with buddhism, grown out of india, our bharat mata, we do not feel threatened. after all, all of us know a TB youth, named gautam or siddharth? don't we?

to sum up, as TBs, we are the leaders of the hindu division by inheritance; today we blame the politicians for perpetuating casteism, whose prime instigators were our ancestors, and which for us has been an uncomfortable collar to wear. truth, i have been told, hurts.

thank you.
 
Last edited:
with tacit underhand approval coming from the upper middle class, who on their own accord, have for practical purposes abandoned the apartheidness of brahminism long ago.

My dear friend,

Far be it fo me to disagree with someone I admire most, but I think more than anyone else, it is the "upper class" brahmins who I detest most; perhaps that is what you are also saying and I am failing to get it into my thick head.

I respect the poor observant brahmin who wakes up at 4 or 5 in the morning, takes a bath in cold well water, does three sandhyavandhanams at the appointed time, and tries to follow every edict in the book as best as possible. Contrast this with those who take pride in their brahmin identity, heritage et al. but flouts every law in the books.

I think this is what you are also saying, in your own inimitably delightful style.

Cheers!
 
Dear Prof. Nara,
I respect the poor observant brahmin who wakes up at 4 or 5 in the morning, takes a bath in cold well water, does three sandhyavandhanams at the appointed time, and tries to follow every edict in the book as best as possible. Contrast this with those who take pride in their brahmin identity, heritage et al. but flouts every law in the books.

If you really mean it, i am into a big surprise. All along, I thought "வாத்தியாரோட பிரம்பு எல்லா பிராமணர்களுக்கும் தான்."

:)

Regards
 
Dear Sri Raman,
I attached here a news of a cobra doing archana to Sivalinga during Surya Grahanam. It tells me God accept pure love from anyone even from snake.

Thanks for the PDF, amazing. Absolutely, god accepts love from anybody.

பிகு.
"பழக்கின பாம்புன்னு சொன்னாலும் சொல்வாங்க"

Regards
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Latest ads

Back
Top