Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[Raghy]

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Sow.Sri.Renuka,

"Adishakaracharya was just showing to the world that even when a person reaches to the highest spiritual point he can still have traces of discriminative vision in him..."

It can not be true. When a person even starts getting spiritual advancement, he/she will see paramatma in everyone and everthing; there will be no discriminative vision. If someone still has discriminative vision, it shows that the 'someone' has not started in the spiritual path yet.
By the way, a majority of beer drinking, beef eating westeners do not discriminate between persons. Certainly not in the 'right of way' situations; they normally hold back and say 'after you, please!'. are they spiritually comparitively more advanced?....

Sow.Sri.Renuka said:-

"this whole [COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important][COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important]episode[/COLOR][/COLOR] was to show everyone that knowledge can be in anyone and is verily for anyone and a worthy teacher is respected whatever his origins are."

Really? I am not convinced.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Dear Raghy,

I request you to read the Adi Sankara-Chandala episode in context to the posting of Sri Sai Devo (thread #30) under "Events from Adishankarar's life" where the Paramacharya explains the concept of an avatar. The avatar in a human form supposedly does things which to us seems pretty human but there is a greater purpose in it. It is all god's leela to show that purpose. Adi Shankara being the incarnation of Shiva was already a realized being. To me the Chandala incident clearly shows 2 things. Firstly, no human being is trivial whether he is a sage or a chandala and gnana is not an exclusive property of anyone. Secondly, the concept of Advaita itself. To me, the first has greater importance. Adi Sankara being a spiritual master could have just said the first message and people would have still believed it. But to actually show it through the Chandala incident is even more greater. But if we look closely avatars throughout our ages have behaved in a very similar fashion. Aren't there numerous incidents in the Ramayana to show how Rama set a personal example fro people to follow?

To me the Paramacharya's explanation of the divine will of god against his leelas in this bhumi as an avatar makes very good sense.

 

[happyhindu]

Adishakaracharya was just showing to the world that even when a person reaches to the highest spiritual point he can still have traces of discriminative vision in him...

It can not be true. When a person even starts getting spiritual advancement, he/she will see paramatma in everyone and everthing; there will be no discriminative vision. If someone still has discriminative vision, it shows that the 'someone' has not started in the spiritual path yet.

A few inputs from what i have come across:

Evolution of consciousness happens over time in various stages or steps.

During this process, some siddhis may be obtained. Examples are:

a) being able to 'see" and speak about (or predict about) recent past events, and near future events.

b) being able to read minds

c) ability to withstand physical pain such as a lying on a bed of arrows or undergoing surgeries without anaesthesia.

d) performing some 'miracles', such as being able to compose things in a different language that was not learnt previously, etc.

However, this does not mean that such a person has become a 'knower of everything'.

Such a person, is still in a conditioned physical presence and may have what can be considered a 'discriminative vision'.

Until samadhi, no complete unconditioning happens.

Which is why even avataras like Rama could become mired in self-doubt on the battle field (as in the episode of agastya meeting rama on the battleground and then telling rama the adityahridayam).

A simpler example is that of Sri Yogananda who could not explain why he did certain things (he uttered negative words to the father of a boy without realizing why he said so and soon after the boy passed away).

Anything that is in the physical conditioned presence is subject to laws of karma; and rising totally above it happens only after complete unconditioning.

Therefore there is nothing called 'perfection' as such, wrt to people on the spiritual path, until samadhi.

'Awareness" may be there about who you are, where you had been in your previous births, etc. But its not possible to completely become one with the self until the stage of samadhi.

Kumbh melas attract many sadhus who are able to predict things, perform miracles, etc.

An aunt of mine had visited one kumbh mela years ago (when i was still a child). An elderly sadhu simply looked at her face and told her to 'go home' because her mother is going to die. And truly within 2 weeks her mother died of a heart-attack.

Such people may smoke ganja (just as the hero did in naan kadavul movie), or may be placid and peaceful (as in the case of yogis).

And people around such yogis or sadhus may consider them "divine" due to such 'miracles' and abilities. But they are just humans with an evolving consciousness...

Typically, it may be the case of the 'natural' being understood as the 'supernatural' due to our own ignorance or conditioning.

In the case of Sri Adi Shankara, he did take samadhi finally and became one with his self - as the 'advaitha chudamani - the crest jewel of advaitha'. Until he attained this stage, since he lived in this 'world', it might have been possible for him to do 'wordly' things.

Regards.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

Brahmins and the upper caste ruled all these eons and now we have this -- and the brahmins won't take any responsibility, it is all the politician's fault. Is it really?

Regrads!

Classic anti-Brahmin rhetoric.

Social dominance was never absolutely governed by varna.

Throughout the history of India several castes of Shudra varna have rose to be prominance like the Nairs of Kerala, Marahttas of Maharashtra, Jatts of Punjab and Vellalars of Tamil Nadu.

All are Shudra by Varna but were historically a Forward Caste.

When the British left, dalits gained a significant upper hand in the society of India due to reservations/affirmative action.

Vast majority of Indian politicians are dalits/Shudras.

 

[kunjuppu]

staunch,

awesome to see you still live and kicking. thought you were booted out of the forum a while back for your outrageous views.

welcome back.

it is sort of quiet lately. your old nemesis KRS is back today. we have a new moderator sriram. and a whole host of new folks who are deep into swayamvarams and astrology.

hope all these come under your critical purview and light up a few fireworks.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

Sri RVR ji,

Hats off to your clear, valid and practical feedback.

I believe the near future generation of we Hindus would not have cast system. The present generation is very clear as how to lead a flexible and comfortable life. I believe inter-cast marriages are not so bothered by NB communities. It's only we Brahmins who all are worried about our boys and girls marrying NB's. But that also seems to be fading away in due course of time.

Another Anti-Brahmin reasoning.

Look at the world around you, Africans in Africa only want their children to marry fellow Africans. Chinese in China only want their children to marry fellow Chinese, Arabs in Arabia only want their children to marry fellow Arabs.

Jatts, Rajputs, Marahttas, Naidus, Reddys, Chettys/Chettiars etc all non-pariah castes in India are very keen in inter-caste marriage. So its just not a Brahmin phenomenon. Brahmins are arguably the most caste conscious of all Hindus but in no way is caste consciousness an exclusively Brahmin feeling.

"Live & Let Live", "Love All & Serve All", "Where There Is A Will There Is A Way" etc...all would seem to become the only Mantras of we all Hindus, giving liberty to the style of worship, eating habits, principles, belief, and life style.

Racial preservation is a natural instinct. Loving your race doesn't mean hating other races.

Racial awareness is a very basic human trait. Only in highly racially mixed and politically correct societies is racial awareness seen as being unpopular and distasteful.

They would like to partner with some one educated with whom one's frequency matches well (Obviously it is valid & logical).

Its good if race mixers actually only concern themselves with the level of intelligence(as in being highly educated) of their spouses as the most important priority. But most race mixers are actually the most intellectually inferior and inferior complex individuals of the tribe.

If some one is taking a decision to marry from the same cast, bearing the strain to find the perfect match within would be doing so just to make his/her parents happy and to convince the society.

The survival of tribe rests upon the individuals who belong to it.

For the case of Indians, it just so happens that Indians are overly dependant on their families. And it becomes that the choice of spouse by parents is probably a cultural habit that probably traces back to pre-Vedic times.

Eitherways a male/female should choose someone they find suitable from their own caste.

The future society may than just be convinced that a Religion called Hinduism is still having its existence and is proud to express to the world that Hinduism in not just a religion but "A way of Life"

And how exactly is Hinduism not a "way of life" because of caste consciousness?

Racial preservation doesn't effect ones spirituality. Look at Islam, the Bedouins exercise racism and tribalism, still that doesn't affect their understanding of God.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

Prof Nara Sir,

Our forefathers would have committed some excesses. Is it justified crucifying the present generation for that?

Our community played a leading role in the Independent struggle.

I think most of us are born after India became independent and became a true democratic republic.

Even in western world such as UK and USA voting rights were extended to all only in instalments unlike in India where everybody attaining a particular age got voting right from day one of our republic.

Practically the agraharams have vanished. In the city all communities are living together in mostly apartment type environment.

Our community members are migrating outside Tamilnadu on a continuous basis and we are not at all fighting for anything. But politicians are still crucifying the residual people staying back. Is it justified?

It is pure vote bank politics of Dravidian parties and let them do it. We have no problem. Personally I have faced the onslaught on our community throughout my career staying back in Tamilnadu. During this period, our community members have done an excellent job, focussing on developement only and not playing into the hands of these politicians. Let us hope this will continue in the future till the voices of our politicians stop talking about us.

All the best

Good post. Yes I absolutely agree that "Dravidian Nationalism" has only made the Tamil Brahmin community stronger and smarter.

Those who wish to destroy us, only make us stronger.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

staunch,

awesome to see you still live and kicking.

Thank you for your kind words and well wishes. How very nice of you.

thought you were booted out of the forum a while back for your outrageous views.

welcome back.

it is sort of quiet lately. your old nemesis KRS is back today. we have a new moderator sriram. and a whole host of new folks who are deep into swayamvarams and astrology.

hope all these come under your critical purview and light up a few fireworks.

I wasn't aware that my views were perceived as outrageous. But I'm sure the forum moderators permit a strong opposition. I mean we should be hospitable even to our naysayers, right? Courtesy is the way of the Thamizha, is it not?

As long as it is intelligent and civil, what harm brings a debate? Keepers of truth need not be afraid.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

RVR,

Brahmin faced lots of problem in Tamil Nadu for the past 40 years. I know, around 80 percent of people in TN see discrimination against lower caste. They don’t even offer water to thirsty low caste people (Sakkli), but the same people blame Brahmin for discrimination.

I wanted all Hindus stay united. Blaming each other develop only hatred. It will not solve the problem.

The situation is improving now, but some political parties now strengthening the castes for vote banks.

I think untouchability should be re-evaluated. Basic human rights and dignity should be kept in mind and also just simple humanity.

Suppose a Sakkilian is dying of thirst, it would be common human morality to atleast offer him water.

Surely aversion towards certain people happened when they are criminals. Some of the adivasis of South India were habitual criminals with inhumane behaviour, maybe untouchability became severe because of them.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Kunjuppu,

I can't help asking this question, please. You said to Sri.Staunch_Iyengar,

"awesome to see you still live and kicking. thought you were booted out of the forum a while back for your outrageous views."

Do people get booted out of this forum for their views - 'outrageous or otherwise'? I think it would be an useful information for me to know since I am fairly new to this forum, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sow.Sri.Renuka,

"Adishakaracharya was just showing to the world that even when a person reaches to the highest spiritual point he can still have traces of discriminative vision in him..."

It can not be true. When a person even starts getting spiritual advancement, he/she will see paramatma in everyone and everthing; there will be no discriminative vision. If someone still has discriminative vision, it shows that the 'someone' has not started in the spiritual path yet.
By the way, a majority of beer drinking, beef eating westeners do not discriminate between persons. Certainly not in the 'right of way' situations; they normally hold back and say 'after you, please!'. are they spiritually comparitively more advanced?....

Sow.Sri.Renuka said:-

"this whole [COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important][COLOR=#5ea0c3 !important]episode[/COLOR][/COLOR] was to show everyone that knowledge can be in anyone and is verily for anyone and a worthy teacher is respected whatever his origins are."

Really? I am not convinced.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

I am just going to give a very short answer as Happy Hindu has already explained it very well.

Transformation takes time Dear Sir.Even all of us developed from zygote stage and developed into fully functional human beings over time.
Even a flower starts off as a bud till its mature enough to eminate fragrance.

Incarnations of God are merely "Role Playing" for us lesser mortals to realize the Truth.

Give time to anyone...Self Realization is a gradual process and not everyone is born a Jeevan Muktha.

After all Ratnakara did not become Valmiki overnight and neither did Viswamitra coin the Gayatri Mantra overnight too.

 

[renuka]

dear all,

I put this here becos i felt since this thread attracts lots of viewers it wont be missed.
Its a good practical point for everyone to follow.
all of us can learn from this.

When someone whose ways you do not appreciate comes near you, there is no need to find fault with him or her. There is no need either to laugh at them or show them your contempt. It is enough if you continue to do your work unaffected by their arrival. Let them follow their path; leave them alone. This is the attitude of ‘Udaseenabhava’, the attitude of unaffectedness. When you practice and attain this state of mind, you will have unchanging love for God. This attitude will bestow on you everlasting peace, self-control and purity of mind. ​

-Divine Discourse, Prasanthi Vahini.​

 

[Iyer]

Is Bagwad Gita the foundation for the Caste System or is the system attributed to language groups? WE find only the Brahmin caste in every language. No other caste is multilingual. Every other caste is monolingual. You have only a Tamil Koundar, Telugu Reddy, Naidu, Malayalam Nair, Menon. You don't have a Telugu Nair, Tamil Reddy or a Malayalam Koundar.

 

[renuka]

Is Bagwad Gita the foundation for the Caste System or is the system attributed to language groups? WE find only the Brahmin caste in every language. No other caste is multilingual. Every other caste is monolingual. You have only a Tamil Koundar, Telugu Reddy, Naidu, Malayalam Nair, Menon. You don't have a Telugu Nair, Tamil Reddy or a Malayalam Koundar.

Dear Sir,

Brahmin is just a broad classification for the first Varna.
There is also no Punjabi/Bihari/Bengali Iyer or Iyengar.

For examples Punjabis have Saraswat type of Brahmins and also other types.

You might not find a telegu menon/nair but you will find its equavalent type/subtype.

 

[RVR]

Dear Sir,

Brahmin is just a broad classification for the first Varna.
There is also no Punjabi/Bihari/Bengali Iyer or Iyengar.

For examples Punjabis have Saraswat type of Brahmins and also other types.

You might not find a telegu menon/nair but you will find its equavalent type/subtype.

You are correct Dr Renuka

The term `Pillai' is common both in Tamilnadu and Kerala. Malayali Nair community has several subsects like Nambiar,Menon, Nair and Pillai.

Probably Nadar community has a parellel Ezhava community.

Gounder in Tamilnadu are termed as Gauda in Karnataka.

There may be lot of similarities in different regions.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Anand,

I do not believe Sri.Adi Shankara was an avatar of Siva; nor I believe that the chandala was the avatar of Siva himself. I see Sri.Adi Shankara as just a learned human being worthy of respect; I saw the chandala as just a human-being only. I went through Sri.Saidevo's post as suggested by you. Sir, with due respect to Sri.Saidevo, since I do not believe in avatars, I am sorry to say that, the said post did not appeal to me very much.

Sri.Anand said :-

"To me the Chandala incident clearly shows 2 things. Firstly, no human being is trivial whether he is a sage or a chandala and gnana is not an exclusive property of anyone. Secondly, the concept of Advaita itself. To me, the first has greater importance. Adi Sankara being a spiritual master could have just said the first message and people would have still believed it. But to actually show it through the Chandala incident is even more greater."

Sir, I respect your opinions. Unfortunately I do not see the whole episode as you explained here. It was expected that the chandala should have provided right of way to the brahmin Sri.Adi Shankara. Kindly don't forget, that chandala, being a chandala would not have received any education; would not have recognised Sri.Adi Shankara when he saw him. For that chandala, Sri.Adi Shankara must have been just one more brahmin. He chose not to move. A great learned person could have easily seen the paramatama in the chandala and could have honoured the chandala. That would have set an example to others too. The show down was unnecessary.

However sir, an example was not set though. The same Sri.Adi Shankara did not start educating chandalas since that event; not as of today, sir. So, if any message was delivered, it did not go too far after that incident.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu said amoung other things :-

"....Such a person, is still in a conditioned physical presence and may have what can be considered a 'discriminative vision'.

Until samadhi, no complete unconditioning happens."

With due respect to Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu's views in post #703, in my opinion, they are not convincing. The requirement in the said incident was very simple - a learned scholar Sri.Adi Shankara failed to see a chandala as a human being. I am the least interested about 'complete unconditioning'; just asking about a peaceful flexibility.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Renuka said :-

"Transformation takes time Dear Sir..."

Sow.Renuka,

Your above assertion is very true. But if the transformation had already happened, it would not be very difficult to just follow it.

Vidya vinaya sampanne brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama darsana - Srimad Baghavat Gita 5;18

By virtue of knowledge, humble sages see a learned brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog eater with equal visions. Sri.Adi Shankara wrote bashyam for this. The transformation was already there.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

dear all,

I put this here becos i felt since this thread attracts lots of viewers it wont be missed.
Its a good practical point for everyone to follow.
all of us can learn from this.

When someone whose ways you do not appreciate comes near you, there is no need to find fault with him or her. There is no need either to laugh at them or show them your contempt. It is enough if you continue to do your work unaffected by their arrival. Let them follow their path; leave them alone. This is the attitude of ‘Udaseenabhava’, the attitude of unaffectedness. When you practice and attain this state of mind, you will have unchanging love for God. This attitude will bestow on you everlasting peace, self-control and purity of mind. ​

-Divine Discourse, Prasanthi Vahini.​

Sow.Sri.Renuka,

In a public forum everything under the sky is for discussions. That includes this mesage quoted from divine discourse, Prasanthi Vahini too.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear RaghyJi,

I hope you dont mind my question.May I know why the Avatar concept does not appeal to you?
Becos I have read another Swamiji's book where he also does not believe in the Avatar concept but he firmly believes in Lord Shiva only.
I would be grateful if you could kindly share your thoughts with all of us.

 

[Raghy]

Dear RaghyJi,

I hope you dont mind my question.May I know why the Avatar concept does not appeal to you?
Becos I have read another Swamiji's book where he also does not believe in the Avatar concept but he firmly believes in Lord Shiva only.
I would be grateful if you could kindly share your thoughts with all of us.

Sow.Sri.Renuka,

a human being is just that; a tiny microscopic unimportant entity in the cosmos. I am agnostic; but that is beside the point for this situation. For someone who believes in God, God is the single entity that created and maintains the 'anda saracharam' or the 'cosmos'. belief is a personal matter. I one wants to believe, one may believe in anything. Since I am agnostic, I am not really believing any avatars be it siva or Narayana. Personally avatars do not make sense to me. While I am writing this message, I can see that it is very hard to explain why avatar concepts do not appeal to me. Sorry. I have not explained myself cleraly.

Cheers!

 

[Iyer]

Dear Sir,

Brahmin is just a broad classification for the first Varna.
There is also no Punjabi/Bihari/Bengali Iyer or Iyengar.

For examples Punjabis have Saraswat type of Brahmins and also other types.

You might not find a telegu menon/nair but you will find its equavalent type/subtype.

The basis on which people were divided into groups differs with language. One cannot find equavalent of menon or nair among Telugu speaking group.

The Tamil speaking population of many centuries ago had an indegenous God-belief system. They had their own priests. But with the invasion of Sanskrit based Sanatana Dharma, the original tamilian based God-belief system must have got completely destroyed. What we have now in Tamil Nadu is a mix of the Sanskrit based system and traces of the original Tamil system. For instance Murugan is a God known only to the Tamilians. North Indians hardly know of the existence of such a God. You find Murugan literature only in Tamil. Murugan temples exist only in Tamil Nadu. If there is any Murugan temple anywhere else it is built by Tamilians living there. For example the Malaysian and Sigapore murugan temples are built by Tamilians settled over there. Likewise there so many Gods and Goddesses worshipped in North India, which are totally unknown in Tamil Nadu. If at all some of them are know, they are brought by the North Indians who are settled in Tamil Nadu.

 

[renuka]

The basis on which people were divided into groups differs with language. One cannot find equavalent of menon or nair among Telugu speaking group.

The Tamil speaking population of many centuries ago had an indegenous God-belief system. They had their own priests. But with the invasion of Sanskrit based Sanatana Dharma, the original tamilian based God-belief system must have got completely destroyed. What we have now in Tamil Nadu is a mix of the Sanskrit based system and traces of the original Tamil system. For instance Murugan is a God known only to the Tamilians. North Indians hardly know of the existence of such a God. You find Murugan literature only in Tamil. Murugan temples exist only in Tamil Nadu. If there is any Murugan temple anywhere else it is built by Tamilians living there. For example the Malaysian and Sigapore murugan temples are built by Tamilians settled over there. Likewise there so many Gods and Goddesses worshipped in North India, which are totally unknown in Tamil Nadu. If at all some of them are know, they are brought by the North Indians who are settled in Tamil Nadu.

Dear Sir,
It all depends how one wants to classify for examples Nairs/Menons.
If one calssifies them as Kshatriya Varna ..then obviously you have the Rajus of the Kshatriya Varna in Andhra Pradesh.

Now coming to Lord Muruga...Lord Muruga is not only known to Tamils.
In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna mentions: Among the Generals, I am Skanda...
and this was in DwaparaYuga.

In Kaliyuga Lord Muruga was mentioned in Shankara Digvijaya as Kumarilla Bhatta who had incarnated to promote the Brahma Portion(Ritualistic Portion of the Vedas).
Since He promoted the Brahma portion of the Vedas...He came to be known as Su(promoter) Brahmanya(Brahma Portion of the Vedas) hence the name Subrahmanya.

regarding various forms of God worship in different parts of India..sometimes i hope i wouldnt be wrong to say its an artist impression of the same One and only God(whether in Purusha or Sakthi) in different aspects.
After all if you take the artist impression of Lord Buddha by a Tibetian/Chinese artist..its very different from the Indian impression of Lord Buddha.
All paintings/idols depiction we see are artist impression only.
God does not mind though..All Forms are His anyway.


renu

 

[Iyer]

Dear Sir,
It all depends how one wants to classify for examples Nairs/Menons.
If one calssifies them as Kshatriya Varna ..then obviously you have the Rajus of the Kshatriya Varna in Andhra Pradesh.

Now coming to Lord Muruga...Lord Muruga is not only known to Tamils.
In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna mentions: Among the Generals, I am Skanda...
and this was in DwaparaYuga.

In Kaliyuga Lord Muruga was mentioned in Shankara Digvijaya as Kumarilla Bhatta who had incarnated to promote the Brahma Portion(Ritualistic Portion of the Vedas).
Since He promoted the Brahma portion of the Vedas...He came to be known as Su(promoter) Brahmanya(Brahma Portion of the Vedas) hence the name Subrahmanya.

regarding various forms of God worship in different parts of India..sometimes i hope i wouldnt be wrong to say its an artist impression of the same One and only God(whether in Purusha or Sakthi) in different aspects.
After all if you take the artist impression of Lord Buddha by a Tibetian/Chinese artist..its very different from the Indian impression of Lord Buddha.
All paintings/idols depiction we see are artist impression only.
God does not mind though..All Forms are His anyway.


renu

Thanks for throwing some light. But what was the actual fact? What truly was the basis on which Tamil Society was classified? I think we need to probe into the actual facts than how we perceive. Perceptions will vary. What was the reality is what I am trying to find out.

 

[renuka]

Thanks for throwing some light. But what was the actual fact? What truly was the basis on which Tamil Society was classified? I think we need to probe into the actual facts than how we perceive. Perceptions will vary. What was the reality is what I am trying to find out.

Dear Sir,
more than this i really cannot shed anymore light.Its like stiring the hornets nest.
As it is this thread is about "Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?"
I can understand you want to know facts.
Reality is all of us are Manavas and belong to Madhava.