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Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

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Sir,
In my humble opinion LORD KRISHNA has to be held responsible for the present 'ILLS' in SOCIETY. He said He WILL appear in this world
whenever there is ADHARMA. He appeared as BUDDHA,MAHAVIRA, GURU NANAK & OTHER GURUS OF SIKH RELIGION,JESUS CHRIST, PROPHET MOHAMMED etc which enabled his followers form into separate groups
with separate identies.
Yesterday a NEW RELIGION has been started in PUNJAB, INDIA as a result of murderous attack in a GURUDWARA in VIENNA sometime back.
WE being HINDUS may appeal to LORD KRISHNA TO REAPPEAR AGAIN
through OUR PRAYERS and bring UNITY among all religious faiths in the
world and restore SANITY among HUMAN BEINGS.
B.Krishnamurthy
 
Sir,
In my humble opinion LORD KRISHNA has to be held responsible for the present 'ILLS' in SOCIETY. He said He WILL appear in this world
whenever there is ADHARMA. He appeared as BUDDHA,MAHAVIRA, GURU NANAK & OTHER GURUS OF SIKH RELIGION,JESUS CHRIST, PROPHET MOHAMMED etc which enabled his followers form into separate groups
with separate identies.
Yesterday a NEW RELIGION has been started in PUNJAB, INDIA as a result of murderous attack in a GURUDWARA in VIENNA sometime back.
WE being HINDUS may appeal to LORD KRISHNA TO REAPPEAR AGAIN
through OUR PRAYERS and bring UNITY among all religious faiths in the
world and restore SANITY among HUMAN BEINGS.
B.Krishnamurthy



dear sir,

Lord Krishna/God cannot be held responsible for Adharma.
Its our own doings and misinterpratation of Gods word which has led to the present day situation of Adharma.

Do we really always need to depend on an Avatar only to save us?

Why dont whenever there is decline in Dharma in ourselves we re-establish it ourselves and emerge and "avatar" not on Yuge Yuge basis but rather on Dine Dine basis(daily) and this should solve most of the adharmic induced problems in the world.


renu
 
re

dear sir,

Lord Krishna/God cannot be held responsible for Adharma.
Its our own doings and misinterpratation of Gods word which has led to the present day situation of Adharma.

Do we really always need to depend on an Avatar only to save us?

Why dont whenever there is decline in Dharma in ourselves we re-establish it ourselves and emerge and "avatar" not on Yuge Yuge basis but rather on Dine Dine basis(daily) and this should solve most of the adharmic induced problems in the world.


renu

renu,

It is said, Manomoolam idam jagat (the world is a projection of the mind). Our vak (speech) represents Shiva. Hence, we need not go in search of the Trinity (Brahma, Vishnu, and Maheshwara) somewhere in a distant place. God is in us, with us, above, below, and around us. In fact, you are God. Your mind alone is responsible for your joy or sorrow. We think these are thrust on us by someone from outside. No, all these experiences flow from you only. You are responsible for everything. If you realize that these experiences emanate from your own mind and think that you are God, you will become God. On the other hand, if you identify yourself with the world and think "I am so and so," you will remain separate from God.

nachi naga.

22 November 2009, Convocation Discourse
 
Caste system was the very exact reason why the Muslim invaders could not spread Islam to the extent as they had intended. Caste system proved all attempts of non-Hindus to evangelize and convert Hindus to their religion as utterly futile.

That is why Christianity was spread successfully only in the tribal/non-Hindu region of North East India.

The true weakness of the Hindu is not how he associates himself but his tolerance to other religions and in particular Islam. If the Hindu condemns and hates other faiths as much as the Muslim does, there would have been no religions other than Hinduism in India today.
 
SI,

Islam could rule us because Kshatrias were weak in fighting.

Christians could rule us because Islam,Kshatrias were weak in fighting.

If the security of the nation is weak,we have to be prepared to be ruled by outsiders or lose territory.

nachi naga.
 
SI,

Islam could rule us because Kshatrias were weak in fighting.

Christians could rule us because Islam,Kshatrias were weak in fighting.

If the security of the nation is weak,we have to be prepared to be ruled by outsiders or lose territory.

nachi naga.

So far the only Kshatriyas that I consider to be by virtue as truly Kshatriyas are Rajputs in general. Even among Rajputs there are clans who were basically Kshatriya-ized, so to speak, by being added into Rajputical order.

The Rajputs were physically superior to the Muslim invaders but were divided because of hereditary disputes. Also the full force of the Islamic Caliphate was struck upon India, its greatly remarkable that Rajputs even exist today.

I think the best strategy that was ever employed was that by the Vijayanagar Kshatriyas. The Nayaks recruited mercenaries from other castes, still they treated those castes as Shudras but still used them for battle.
 
SI,

I agree Rajputs,Sikhs,Naidus,Nayaks,Gaekwads,Patil...etc especially Shivaji best Marathwada King.Marathi influence was in Thanjavur,Madurai...Of course the Karnataka Kings..old India was a masterpiece classic.But we need to adapt to present situation not muse over caste feelings,be Indian buy Indian with American collabaration.

nachi naga.
 
Caste system was the very exact reason why the Muslim invaders could not spread Islam to the extent as they had intended. Caste system proved all attempts of non-Hindus to evangelize and convert Hindus to their religion as utterly futile.

That is why Christianity was spread successfully only in the tribal/non-Hindu region of North East India.

The true weakness of the Hindu is not how he associates himself but his tolerance to other religions and in particular Islam. If the Hindu condemns and hates other faiths as much as the Muslim does, there would have been no religions other than Hinduism in India today.

The weakness of presentday Hindus is that they are brainwashed into believing that there is no unity among them and are thus falling into the propaganda trap of vested interests.

While there are hundreds of unifying threads, Hindus are made selective blind to this and the very few differences are exaggerated and presented in front, repeating and bombarding in a continuous frenzy to make him hear and see only that.

Other religions forget hundreds of difference among them and concentrate only on just one common factor, thus putting up a unified front:whereas the opposite is true in the case of Hindus.--- Forgetting hundreds of common factors and concentrating on only one difference.(due to situations cited earlier)

Vested interest will fan the flames of this particular point to see that Hindus do not unite.If Hindus really unite ,then it will be a real threat to the vested interests' existence and spread,and will put an end to their , sustenance on lies and canards , perpetuating exploitation by dividing.

The economic texts taught in classes mock the Hindus by using a term"Hindu rate of Growth"to derogate the Hindus .and making them believe that everything is fine elsewhere.

The readymade textbook tablets spoonfed to gullible children even from lower classes are what is deliberately written by vested interests to create division, so that the Hindu children will start doubting this faith ; and the other scene avenues are pictured as ideal.

Any attempt to say that --- Hinduism is not bad,Hindus have right believe in their religion -to say it openly-- is immediately frowned upon with choicest bombastic words- manufactured separately for them--but not used in case others do same thing.


So the remedy is to believe firmly and sincerely that Hindus are one, they can be one always. This country is our Motherland, and it is every one's duty to take care of all these,with spread of unity, whatever be the form of vested divisive forces- fighting and finishing it off with conviction and concentrated dedication , with a unified Might.


Greetings.
 
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Jai Bajrang Bali Hindu Bolo Garva Say Hare Rama Krishna
Rama Lakshmana Janaki Jai Bolo Hanuman Ki

nachi naga.
 
Dear all, Mr. S is topping the bill, as he performs his tricks and somersaults, a splendid time is guaranteed for all, only hope, Mr. S is on solid ground. (h/t Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite of Beatles).

Some claims from Mr.S

  • The Rajputs were physically superior to the Muslim invaders but were divided because of hereditary disputes.
  • Also the full force of the Islamic Caliphate was struck upon India, its greatly remarkable that Rajputs even exist today.
  • The Nayaks recruited mercenaries from other castes, still they treated those castes as Shudras but still used them for battle.
  • Caste system was the very exact reason why the Muslim invaders could not spread Islam to the extent as they had intended.
  • Caste system proved all attempts of non-Hindus to evangelize and convert Hindus to their religion as utterly futile.
Unless you provide some references from reputable sources, these have no more value than the hair clippings on the floor of a barber shop.

The true weakness of the Hindu is not how he associates himself but his tolerance to other religions and in particular Islam. If the Hindu condemns and hates other faiths as much as the Muslim does, there would have been no religions other than Hinduism in India today.
So, you think there was not enough hate. The problem with the Hindus is they do not hate enough. Are you for real, or are you just winding up the caste Brahmins?

Mr.S., you are either dishonest or hateful. Either way, dear TB members, look out, don't fall for it.
 
I think you did not read the passage you quoted for me, yourself first. Am reproducing it for your benefit:

It does not matter to anyone that you, your family and your friends, do not treat anyone badly based on caste; or indulge in segregation / discrimination.

The mutts endorse segregation and discrimination. Please read the kamakoti articles. Am doing a copy-paste: Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita from the Chapter "Varna Dharma For Universal Well-Being", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
Whatever 'proof' has been mentioned in the subsequent pages, has been refuted not only by historians who have documented jaati as a later development, but also by all the ekadandi traditions (note that kanchi mutt supposedly follows the saraswati sanyasa marga amongst the dasanamis; so why do not the other saraswati dasanamis have the same views? why kanchi mutt's views are so exclusively its own).

The article then goes on to endorse birth segregations and expects each varna and jaati to follow their own dharma and codes of conduct.

Which means, that a chandala must continue to be treated as an outcaste, and must not be allowed to listen to vedas. Same goes for shudras who must not accumulate money, be servile and not listen to vedas. And women must also continue to be servile and not get educated or go to work and be independent.

Except brahmins, no other caste has a scriptural basis as a "spiritual" basis to follow any of these as "dharma" or a code of conduct.

Other castes can, have and will give up discriminatory practices over time, as and when education and awareness increases. They have no "dharma" obligation to follow such things.

But as long as mutts continue to endorse these things, people like the abnomals we see here will continue to exist. They will continue to talk of their existence since yugas or thousands of years, about brahmin exclusivity, greatness, and about "victimhood" for not being allowed to "practice their dharma". [In what way is the anger and "victimhood" of a dalit wrong then? Dalits have indeed suffered 'like the jews'].

And these 'brahmin' abnormals are the ones who will continue to become part of right-wing activism working against "secularism" or the state. They do not consider indian constitution lawful since (like muslims who want sharia), they want to turn back the clock into times when they are free to practice their "dharma" or codes of conduct of segregation and discrimination (with themselves as 'brahmins' on top of the varna ladder - it does not matter to them that they do not follow anything required for a 'brahmin' to follow since they are already 'brahmins by birth', so that is sufficient for them..).

And do note, that extremist-watchers do believe that just like wahabbis, in future, the right wing extremists won't hesitate to "take up arms" like "parashurama" and fight. They already do not hesitate to kill. We already have people as part of various senas. They attack churches, TV stations, and of late, such people have also become involved in things bomb blasts (like the malegaon bomb blast).

So i have clearly explained where i am coming from.

We fail to realise that we are heeding in the same direction as islam with hindusim.




Age of Manusmrithi: between 200 BC and 200 AD. See Wiki article.

a) For composition between 200 BCE and 200 CE see: Avari, p. 142.
b) For dating of composition "between the second century BCE and third century CE" see: Flood (1996), p. 56.
c) For dating of Manu Smriti in "final form" to the second century CE, see: Keay, p. 103.
d) For dating as completed some time between 200 BCE and 100 CE see: Hopkins, p. 74.
e) For probable origination during the second or third centuries AD, see: Kulke and Rothermund, p. 85.
f) For the text as preserved dated to around the 1st century BCE. see: Encyclopedia Britannica Concise, Manu-smrti (Hindu law) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia.



I think i already replied. Are you asking in a diff context.

From wiki article:

Read: Vishuddha Manusmriti, (Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi, Fourth Edition), by Surendra Kumar, p. 5.

If you go to monks, they are not able to connect certain verses to the explanations which they are able to give on the rest of the text.

But what historians like Surendra Kumar, other monks, other people, etc think will make a difference only to the people who follow them - not to the larger masses, not to 'brahmins'.

If these things can make a difference to the society as a whole, only mutts have to act on it - since they are the ones propagating smrithis asking all hindus to follow them - they have to be clear about which smrithis to follow, what parts to follow and which parts are to be considered null and void (inapplicable in present times).

Regards.
Dear Happyhindu ji,
Good argument. btw... can u please tell me where to buy Vishuddha Manusmriti. I am eager to learn the Original Laws of Rajarshi Manu... which is devoid of any interpolations. :)
 
Dear Sir,

The cast system has advantages as well as disadvantage. It depends on how one look at it.
The varna system as it is also known has given insulation and identity to the groups and has also united them.
If one sees, each group has been alloted their funcations and all these while they have performed without any
problem.

While the distractors find this very hard to break the Hindu system they started blaming everything on the cast systems.
What one may not realise is, it is the politicians who play on this for their vote bank polocy.

Rgds
Mohan
 
Dear Sir,

The cast system has advantages as well as disadvantage. It depends on how one look at it.
The varna system as it is also known has given insulation and identity to the groups and has also united them.
If one sees, each group has been alloted their funcations and all these while they have performed without any
problem.

While the distractors find this very hard to break the Hindu system they started blaming everything on the cast systems.
What one may not realise is, it is the politicians who play on this for their vote bank polocy.

Rgds
Mohan

mohan,

would you rather be a scavenger? honestly.

and let the scavenger take your place in this world.
 
mohan,

would you rather be a scavenger? honestly.

and let the scavenger take your place in this world.
Well said Shri Kunjuppu. People like Shri Mohan believing that the caste system (he uses the term "varna" system as if to enable him to back out, if need arises) provided insulation and identity to, and unity among, the groups must be believing that brahmins will not be reborn as a sudra or dalit! Even if they do, memories of the past birth won't trouble either in reminding them of the privileges they enjoyed as brahmins in the past or the opinions expressed earlier!!
 
if the caste system is broken,automatically christanity will rule roost with very severe stiff competetion from Islam.In fact India will be dismembered as soviet union used to be,and whatever it is now.If Indians are smart,they will see thru this dodgy psuedo inellectuals ulterior motives clear as day light.caste by birth to caste by living is the alternative.mera bharath mahaan.lokas sukhino bhavanthu.
 
Unless you provide some references from reputable sources, these have no more value than the hair clippings on the floor of a barber shop.

in tirupathi the clippings of hair is an divine offerings,in a barber sanctum sactorum.in usa,we donate to aid cancer patients to have wigs made.anyways,nice to see your way of presentation to debunk caste system and race system,as well as debunk gods and then promptly call ahobilam mutts to find out about the vaishnavas alleged involvement in murder charges.i am sure,hh singer wll be pleased by your devotion,govinda go vinda !:)
 
caste system

Dear Kunjappu,

It makes no difference, but stick to what has been said. If one looks around,
the aparthied in South Afric or look back a little, the slave labour in USA.
Was there any cast system prevelent. It is only the reacations of haves to have nots
and it is universal. The common man like to live peacefully. If the cast system is brought
up now, it is because of vested interests.

Rgds,
Mohan
 
Shri Mohan Parasuram,

1) In no other country 'caste' or occupation is fixed by birth by some "divine shastras".

2) The societies in other countries are classist not casteist.

3) The presence or absence of racism in other countries does not absolve the ones who preach, practice and propagate untouchability in India.

4) The most common shrug-off for anyone who speaks of untouchability is that it is by "vested interests". Nobody is preaching the greatness of any other religion here or asking you to convert.

5) Hinduism belongs to ALL hindus, not just to brahmins alone. If the religion needs a 'clean-up' to move with the times, it will be done by hindus for hindus.


Dear Kunjappu,

It makes no difference, but stick to what has been said. If one looks around,
the aparthied in South Afric or look back a little, the slave labour in USA.
Was there any cast system prevelent. It is only the reacations of haves to have nots
and it is universal. The common man like to live peacefully. If the cast system is brought
up now, it is because of vested interests.

Rgds,
Mohan
 
happy hindu,

1) In no other country 'caste' or occupation is fixed by birth by some "divine shastras".

are you in doubt about divinity in shastras?if you are,then i will stop this debate with you.there are fixed pramanas for debating.if the adharam itself is questioned,its akin to question by a child,how it was not present in the marriage of ts parents.though in western societies,the marriage gets formalised even after a birth of a child between couples.

2) The societies in other countries are classist not casteist.

some other nonsense tag to divide,isn't it?

3) The presence or absence of racism in other countries does not absolve the ones who preach, practice and propagate untouchability in India.

my girl-friend tels me all the time "don't touch me" thiking i am some sort of s*x fiend :).seriously,untouchability is not practiced in india.if it is so,plz go and complain to police station,instead of writing here without any proof.

4) The most common shrug-off for anyone who speaks of untouchability is that it is by "vested interests". Nobody is preaching the greatness of any other religion here or asking you to convert.

the very fact you do not live in india,is a thumbs down for many indians.of course its an assumption,i make of you,as i really do not know your whereabouts nor your motives here.

5) Hinduism belongs to ALL hindus, not just to brahmins alone. If the religion needs a 'clean-up' to move with the times, it will be done by hindus for hindus.

finally its nice to see,the root of the situation.hinduism is not the name of our religion.in fact we are not even a religion.sets of principles in life to follow the four cardinal rules finally allowing a human being to moksham.in this all are required to follow their innate nature.in order that inate nature was difficult to ascertain,by birth theory got solid foundation.brahmins were living a life,which was exceedingly difficult to emulate,so they were respected,revered.today such brahmin life is a minority.most brahmins,have thrown away shastras sampradaya guru parampara to material wealth accumulation and comfort loving life.many like me declare,as mahaswamigal diktat,we are brahmana bandhus.a status which is not brahmin anymore.but acharyals of guru paramparam,see that,such strict enforcement is making them lose patronage to other gurus,who are bindaas in night with nubile sirens and saintly demeanor in the morning.so,all are acting in this world.some are better actors,and brahmins ar worst actors in life,especially those categorised by birth brahmins.
 
if the caste system is broken,automatically christanity will rule roost with very severe stiff competetion from Islam.In fact India will be dismembered as soviet union used to be,and whatever it is now.If Indians are smart,they will see thru this dodgy psuedo inellectuals ulterior motives clear as day light.caste by birth to caste by living is the alternative.mera bharath mahaan.lokas sukhino bhavanthu.

nachi,

there is no need to fear that. outside of india, there are as fervent hindus, but they do not practice caste they way indians do. a hindu is a hindu is a hindu. does not matter what baggage the ancestors had.

you can see also the genesis of casteless hindus in our urban societies. why, i have a branch of relatives, who for two generations married across state or caste but all hindus. the children and children's children did the same.

the critical point is wedding. here the youngsters have to find their own mates. for it is here, that the older generation fails, due to its narrow mindedness and prejudice.

the strength of hinduism, i believe, is not in its caste values, but in its philosophical and deep rooted cultural traditions. it is high time we go back to proletizing folks back to hinduism. it has not been done past several hundred years, and hence we calcified. :)

i think there is more fear, that what is warranted.
 
Dear Sir,

The cast system has advantages as well as disadvantage. It depends on how one look at it.
The varna system as it is also known has given insulation and identity to the groups and has also united them.
If one sees, each group has been alloted their funcations and all these while they have performed without any
problem.

While the distractors find this very hard to break the Hindu system they started blaming everything on the cast systems.
What one may not realise is, it is the politicians who play on this for their vote bank polocy.

Rgds
Mohan
Dear Mohan Parasuram,

From the above post it looked to me that you were justifying the caste/varna system for the way it provided insulation, group identity and cohesion to the society. But from your post #768, you seem to talk about apartheid etc., and say if someone brings up caste system now, it is because of vested interests. How will it be vested interest to bring up a beneficial aspect of society which provided insulation, group identity and cohesion to the society?

It is not clear to me.
 
kunjuppu chayta,
nachi,

there is no need to fear that. outside of india, there are as fervent hindus, but they do not practice caste they way indians do. a hindu is a hindu is a hindu. does not matter what baggage the ancestors had.

it's all good outside for sanathana dharma is owing to us being a minority and the magnanimity of christians as a whole.there is no disagreement on that.in fact,we north americans have earned a warm spot of comfort fro our christian brothers and sisters and also islam brothers and sisters.

you can see also the genesis of casteless hindus in our urban societies. why, i have a branch of relatives, who for two generations married across state or caste but all hindus. the children and children's children did the same.

brahmins marrying within brahmins,is an age old sampradayam.but brahmins by birth,is a dwindling population in north america,especially owing to high cost of living.its so nice to know,your family members are doing what they feel happy,but we shud not impose such patterns on behaviour on others who believe otherwisethe freedom to be the way they want to adapt is purely a right on to itself.

the critical point is wedding. here the youngsters have to find their own mates. for it is here, that the older generation fails, due to its narrow mindedness and prejudice.

i will consider myself very lucky,if my progenies marry within our small sects even in north american regions.just as whites marry amongst themselves or blacks marrying within their black community etc.there is nothing narrow about it,imho.

the strength of hinduism, i believe, is not in its caste values, but in its philosophical and deep rooted cultural traditions. it is high time we go back to proletizing folks back to hinduism. it has not been done past several hundred years, and hence we calcified. :)

sanathana dharma which became hinduism,is something which we shud ponder upon.we have never gone and proselytised to other communities as to how they shud live or adapt.at the most,we emphasis upon is being vegetarians,which to me is also wrong to emphasise.eating habits is something of a tradition too.

i think there is more fear, that what is warranted.

i have no fear at all about indians or any other nationality.winds of change always happen,nobody can stop it.education that is imparted is more on scientific values,not religious globally.
 
caste vs varna

I want to make one point very clear to all. The current caste system is different from the varna system defined earlier.Varna is based on the nature of the person and some specific works were assigned to him.This was the earlier set up.Based on this Brhman,Vaishya,Shatriya and Shudra were formed. In this system there was no pairty .It all addressed the social work assigned to a varna.
As a later culmination was the formation of caste. caste was mainly from birth.Varna was based on the nature of the person and the work assigned.
Let us understand the above and discuss further .
alwan
 
I want to make one point very clear to all. The current caste system is different from the varna system defined earlier.Varna is based on the nature of the person and some specific works were assigned to him.This was the earlier set up.Based on this Brhman,Vaishya,Shatriya and Shudra were formed. In this system there was no pairty .It all addressed the social work assigned to a varna.
As a later culmination was the formation of caste. caste was mainly from birth.Varna was based on the nature of the person and the work assigned.
Let us understand the above and discuss further .
alwan

Sri.Alwan,

Brahma, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudhra varnas were not equal to each other. Brahma was highest followed by Kshatriya, Vaisya and the last was Sudhra varna. This type of varna system should have been rejected and dumped in the rubbish pit, long back.

Cheers!
 
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