Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[kunjuppu]

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....sanathana dharma which became hinduism,is something which we shud ponder upon.we have never gone and proselytised to other communities as to how they shud live or adapt.at the most,we emphasis upon is being vegetarians,which to me is also wrong to emphasise.eating habits is something of a tradition too.

nachi,

have not sekkhizhaar and thirugnanasambandar converted pandya and chera kings to hinduism from jainism and buddhism? maybe many of us were forever sanathanas. but i think a good number are also converted in the distant past.

also new conversees are the most ardent. you should see the hare krishnas here in toronto!!

 

[nachi naga]

talwan,

I want to make one point very clear to all. The current caste system is different from the varna system defined earlier.Varna is based on the nature of the person and some specific works were assigned to him.This was the earlier set up.Based on this Brhman,Vaishya,Shatriya and Shudra were formed. In this system there was no pairty .It all addressed the social work assigned to a varna.
As a later culmination was the formation of caste. caste was mainly from birth.Varna was based on the nature of the person and the work assigned.
Let us understand the above and discuss further .
alwan

varna in some context could mean color,isn't it?though i agree with your presentation,its the work that we did as per inclination which decided some ancient times back.later it became by birth and jathi it is.jathi also means a variety from the human family.just in flower family we have hibiscus,rose,lotus...etc.personality traits is how i understand lord krishna imparted in gita,basing on gunas.a sathvic person naturally is in ecstatic mood always when involved in bhakthi...but jathi discrimination has led to ill feeling.if everyone in indias life is uplifted in standard of living,no job is menial to do,give correct tools to do jobs,...then such ill feelings wil vanish.the leaders are trying very hard and so are the people adjusting to ground realities.wealth & comfort if distributed properly via standard of living,indians will be happy,whatever tag is attached,as its an universal want.

 

[nachi naga]

kunjuppu,

nachi,

have not sekkhizhaar and thirugnanasambandar converted pandya and chera kings to hinduism from jainism and buddhism? maybe many of us were forever sanathanas. but i think a good number are also converted in the distant past.

yes,after adi-shankara's dig vijayam,i believe sanathana dharma just bounced back with vim vigor vitality.the best of his teachings are all inclusive of all,but somewhere,owing to hygeine,untouchabilty was introduced.yes i agree with you.

also new conversees are the most ardent. you should see the hare krishnas here in toronto!!

i am in awe of hare rama krishnas.they are just magnificient.srila prabhupada is a guru with blessed devotees.dunno how he did it,though he attributed evrything to lord krishna and chaitanya mahaprabhu.love govindas food

 

[talwan]

varna,caste

VARNA SYSTEM IS NOT CURRENT CASTE SYATEM.bOTH ARE DIFFERENT.EARLIER VARNA SYSTEM WAS IN VOGUE.IT WAS PURLE NASED ON THE TYPE OF PERSON AND HIS GUNA. LATER FORMATION IS CASTE SYSTEM.VESTED INTERESTED OR TAKING ADVANTAGE FOR SOME PREVILAGES CASTE SYSTEM WAS FORMED. IT IS FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OVER PERIODS.
ALWAN

 

[janam]

Greetings,

Whatever the thing (varna or caste) all are after the entry of Ariyansனு பல தமிழ் சைட்டுல சொல்றாங்க!.

உதாரணம்....
??ி?ா?ை - Ariyaamai: April 2010

 

[rarvindlawyer]

The bane of this country is not caste system but vote system. The majority need not be right. In the name of rule of majority, the minorities are wreaking havoc. The only fault of brahmins is their intellectual haughtiness.

 

[sravna]

I will give one final shot at the varna systemm vis-a-vis the current social systems. I will take the capitalist class system as the current model.

When you compare the varna system with that of the class system, you can make the following correspondence with respect to the privileges/status enjoyed

Varna Class

Brahmin Super Rich
Kshatriya Rich
Vaisya Middle class
Shudra Poor

The percentage of each class in the class system varies according to countries. I will take that of USA-the most successful capitalist society. The distribution is roughly as follows:

Super Rich - 1%
Rich - 5%
Middle Class - 70-80%
Poor - 15-20%

It is not easy to miss the similarity of this distribution with that existent among varnas of the past. The similarity of privileges enjoyed is also obvious.

But what is not so obvious is the fact that the richness or penury of a person is also perpetuated. Critics may severely object to this by saying that the perpetuation is not done by force or law and there is a freedom of choice in almost anything to all regardless of class.

Really?

How often have you heard that the children of the poor or the stone broke turning into billionaires? If ever you heard about it, it was either on the TV or the newspaper. That occurrence is so low that it can be dismissed as an aberration.

Even if you say that through education etc., poor are getting more and more into at least middle-class life, you must not forget that the present middle class is also aspiring, probably even more. You can only say that the standard of physical life is increasing. But remember the perpetuation of class and the ensuing discrimination though implicit exists for real.

In a materialistic class based society ,it is ok to assess the standard of living by the physical comforts one is enjoying. But the purpose of the varna is totally different. The quality of life is according to one's spiritual nature. But shudras are not barred from climbing up the hierarchy. Kshatriya born Viswamitra became a Brahmarishi after he mastered his mind. The great Adi Sankara is supposed to have said that he would bow in reverence to anyone if he is a brahma gnani, all of these suggesting that there was the required latitude for the lower classes to move up.

Another important point to be taken note of is that as in line with the spiritual objectives of the varna system, the so called elite group i.e., the brahmins were not allowed to accept paid employment, clearly showing the fundamental difference in the philosophy of the varna system and the class systems of today.

One final point. Is there any purpose in possessing two right hands or two left hands? Today, we see people with different intrinsic abilities fighting for the same jobs purely for money. That did not happen in the past.

Even the perpetuation, it seems to me is not due to any explicit pronouncements but only because of the rigor of acquiring the spiritual standards of a higher class.Thus the varna system even though had the effect of perpetuation in the same way as the class based systems, nevertheless offered distinct advantages over them and definitely a far-sighted approach even if one ignored the concepts of karma, rebirths etc.

 

[kunjuppu]

i don't know if the brahmins have reached enlightenment finally. but the following article gives me some hope...

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Untouchability: a sin and a crime

 

[happyhindu]

i don't know if the brahmins have reached enlightenment finally. but the following article gives me some hope...

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Untouchability: a sin and a crime

Wonderful article. God bless Swami Vishvesha ji, a beacon of light and hope. May we get many more pro-active mathadipathis like him with initiative, courage, clarity of purpose and positive action who can guide the rest.

 

[sangom]

I think it is a good beginning and will send out signals which, if taken in the positive spirit by all, will benefit the hindus.

 

[Raghy]

i don't know if the brahmins have reached enlightenment finally. but the following article gives me some hope...

The Hindu : Opinion / Lead : Untouchability: a sin and a crime

Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. With due respect to your opinion, why did you say 'if brahmins have reached enlightenment finally'? Why didn't you wonder 'if Hindus have reached enlightment finally?Or did you by any chance mean to say all the other castes have already reached enlightenment; now brahmins are catching up in reaching enlightenment finally?

Kindly enlighten me, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. With due respect to your opinion, why did you say 'if brahmins have reached enlightenment finally'? Why didn't you wonder 'if Hindus have reached enlightment finally?Or did you by any chance mean to say all the other castes have already reached enlightenment; now brahmins are catching up in reaching enlightenment finally?

Kindly enlighten me, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

raghy,

you are giving me a big task here, ie to 'enlighten' you. i don't think i have the werewithal to do it.

maybe i can explain my quote? this particular treatment of dalit mutt heads by brahmin women, including washing the head's feet - i thought was enlightened. we pay respects to the learned ones, irrespective of caste.

with the onset of swami chinmaya, amma and what else, i think we are moving in that direction already.

hope this explains.

re hindus enlarging their minds, i think enough is said, in the reservations related threads.

 

[Raghy]

raghy,

......this particular treatment of dalit mutt heads by brahmin women, including washing the head's feet - i thought was enlightened. we pay respects to the learned ones, irrespective of caste.

with the onset of swami chinmaya, amma and what else, i think we are moving in that direction already.

hope this explains.

re hindus enlarging their minds, i think enough is said, in the reservations related threads.

Sri.Kunjuppu,

greetings. Thank you for sharing your views. Thanks for the article too. It is very nice to see the reception provided in the agraharam.

Still most orthodox Mutt heads have not changed a great deal, unfortunately. Still the old policies prevail. Unfortunately, such policies are not challenged at all. most orthodox Mutt heads act independent to the wider public. Seldom they are connected to reality. It is a relief to see few persons like pointed out by you who act in sync with wider public; but, one can't fail to notice that they are not from an orthodox Mutt.

Most Caste Brahmins largely moved away from untouchability and such barbaric practices long back. But the common caste brahmin has no power to convince the orthodoxy to look at the reality. As with many NB castes, they are practicing untouchability without any problem. (I should mention an interesting thing I noticed - Forget about Harijan's restriction to temple entry....in our village, the Harijans have a 'Mariamman temple' in the cheri; caste hindus don't visit that temple nor take part in the festivals in that temple!).

If there is any enlightment, it is not wide spread; it has not touched everyone yet. I am not talking about only untouchability. If a society has to become vibrant, the interactions between members should be warm, cordial and close; only now we have developed a luke-warm closeness; hope we progress exponentially from here.......

Cheers!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Sri.Chidambaresa Iyer has sent a mail to iyer123@yahoo groups.com from his E-Mail Id:[email protected] which makes interesting reading
and also the anxiety of HH.Kanch Periaval about the wellbeing of downtrodden people in Hindu fold.I am reproducing the same for all members to see.

from: sankara chidambaram <[email protected]>
> Subject: Fw: ANANDA VIKATAN-KALA PETTAKAM-1987
> To: "USBRAHMINS" <[email protected]>
> Date: Saturday, 18 September, 2010, 5:20 PM
>
>
> --- On Sat, 18/9/10, sankara chidambaram <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > From: sankara chidambaram <[email protected]>
> > Subject: ANANDA VIKATAN-KALA PETTAKAM-1987
> > To: "RAMA SARMA" <[email protected]>,
> "ramaSarma" <[email protected]>,
> [email protected],
> "kanchimutt mehta" <[email protected]>
> > Cc: "Balaram M.K." <[email protected]>,
> "rajesh(princes IRENE)" <[email protected]>
> > Date: Saturday, 18 September, 2010, 5:06 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> >
> > Sri Rama Jayam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ANANDA VIKATAN
> > This is an English passage based on what appears in
> the
> > 22-9-2010 issue of ANANDA VIKATAN in pages 91-93 under
> the
> > heading “Kaala Pettakam”- 1987
> > “After casting away His danda, the Kanchi Kamakoti
> > Peetadhipati, Sri Jayendra Sarasvati Swamigal
> disappeared in
> > this year, causing deep shock among the devotees. This
> is a
> > drop from the long interview He gave to Vikatan (on
> His
> > return). In this, he gives a slight indication to the
> JANA
> > KALYAN He was about to start. He speaks:-
> > “I had realized long ago that it is not good either
> to
> > India or to Hinduism to ignore the depressed classes
> amongst
> > us. I have personally witnessed their problems during
> my
> > Yatras. They have to be brought into our fold. My
> mind
> > was stressing that they have to be brought out from
> the
> > darkness (that they are in, at present)”.
> > He then started to describe the background of the
> decision
> > he had taken in the matter. “This is a matter on
> > which our Paramacharya has sown the seed already, and
> I am
> > not the originator. If one refers to His
> Divyacharitra, one
> > can know the incident when He accepted the welcome of
> the
> > harijans and gave darshan and blessings to them during
> His
> > yatra. When some of His devotees intervened to say
> “It is
> > time for Pooja”, He would remark, “This is (my)
> > Pooja”. I realized that it is not enough to be
> > content with this, but I must take this as my
> > lifelong-mission and work continuously for their
> > betterment.
> > During my first Yatra with Him, I saw that the
> depressed
> > class devotees, that came to Him and eagerly gathered
> to
> > receive us, were very much more in numbers than the
> vaidiks.
> > I argued with Him that we must give them something in
> the
> > form of Upadesha to make their lives meaningful. He
> also
> > accepted it.
> > Whenever I came to Madras, these people from their
> Cheris
> > will invite me to their temples located in their
> Cheris. And
> > I will visit them. Many times, when talking about this
> to
> > the Paramacharya, I used to mention about the
> existence of
> > the temples in their locality and their worshipping in
> those
> > temples, let alone the fact of my going to these
> temples
> > through their Cheris.
> > Many Europeans, like the French John Philiosa,
> used to
> > come to see Him. They all will sit close to Him and
> discuss.
> > During the Sadas, these Europeans and those from
> other
> > religions would share the same Dias as Him during the
> > proceedings. I used to ask Him, “When these from
> other
> > religions could sit with Him so closely, men from our
> own
> > religion (these depressed class persons) could also do
> the
> > same”. His reply would be, “I do not ask them not
> to
> > come. I am always sincere to them”. Factually, our
> > Paramacharya had a lot of love for the Harijans. But
> some
> > habits (among us) could not be changed easily.
> > What I thought was, “He is also a man. By
> > Parampara, because he was doing some kind of work, he
> is to
> > day considered to be depressed. Among the so-called
> high
> > class people to day, there are those who are of low
> and
> > despicable dispositions. When we consider this and
> compare
> > them (with these high class persons of very low
> mentality),
> > it is only proper that these depressed classes are
> uplifted
> > to be one with the others in the society. They must be
> given
> > benefits in society (same as for others). If they are
> kept
> > in the same condition as hitherto, the country will
> become
> > the handmaid of the politicians and the Nasthikas.
> > The politicians who decry the castes through the laws,
> want
> > to get voted by grouping them caste-wise, and get
> their
> > votes easily by putting up their candidates in the
> elections
> > according to their caste-predominance. Realizing that
> such
> > caste-orientation in elections will harm the country
> in
> > future; I prayed to Bhagavan and thought deeply about
> > unifying them all as Indians for the sake of the
> country.
> > “Our India and our Culture”-This unifying thought
> must
> > dawn in the minds of every one. For this purpose, I
> propose
> > to start this Oct 2 (1987) giving shape to this
> thought of
> > mine. In a way, this is another “Freedom
> Struggle”- for
> > freeing the country from the clutches of the
> politicians.
> > Before carrying out this, I wanted to create an
> atmosphere
> > that will make people welcome this movement eagerly
> amongst
> > them, and it is for this that I disappeared abruptly.
> > However, I did not expect such an amount of
> unnecessary
> > commotion. I thought, “They will ponder as to why
> > such a person from a great institution has disappeared
> so
> > suddenly.” But, beyond that, much unsavory news came
> out,
> > discussing, “Where did he go? How? And many similar
> > unnecessary reports emanated”. It is a pity, no one
> > considered as to, “with what aim He would have
> gone?”
> > While at Talaikaveri, Jayendrar took a very bold
> step. The
> > workers in the Coffee plantation near by had so far
> never
> > ventured to bathe in the sacred Talaikaveri. He called
> the
> > Village elders there, consulted them and with their
> consent,
> > brought these plantation workers to bathe in those
> > Talaikaveri waters for the first time. “I gave them
> all
> > Vibhooti Prasadam and fed them with Pongal. They were
> all
> > happy. No paper published this news”, His Holiness
> > declared.
> > Q. When leaving, the danda was not taken and there was
> a
> > lot of argument about it?
> > A. It is not necessary that the Matadhipati should
> always
> > carry his danda. In a few Mutts, the Matadhipati does
> not
> > always carry the danda. One sishya will be having it
> with
> > him. Even in our Mutt, before I came, one sishya will
> carry
> > the Paramacharya’s danda. Only at the time of the
> Pooja,
> > He will keep the danda with Him. Also, at one point
> of
> > evolved state spiritually, nothing is required
> (meaning
> > danda is not required).
> > Q. Is there any connection between your Oct 2 scheme
> and
> > the Mutt?
> > A. No. It has no connection with the Mutt. It will
> go
> > by another name (JANA KALYAN). Oct 2 is Vijaya
> > Dashami. It is also Gandhi Jayanti day. In the
> movement that
> > I am going to start that day, people will carryout
> the
> > movement. I shall be the Sootradhari like in a
> pantomime.
> > There will be a team (like the Politburo in the
> Communist
> > Party) under my control, who will perform the task..
> This
> > movement will bring about a radical change in our
> country.
> >
> > Translated by S.
> > Chidambaresa Iyer
>

 

[sangom]

Two quotes which are of relevance to the subject matter of this thread :

"The longer one lives, observes, and thinks, the more deeply does he
feel there is no community on the face of the earth which suffers less from
political evils and more from self-inflicted, or self-accepted, or self-created,
and, therefore, avoidable evils, than the Hindu community !! "
-Raja Sir T. Madhava Row, K.C.S.I.


Caste.- " The most disastrous and blighting of human institutions."
-" Ancient Law " by Sir H. S. Maine.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.B.Krishnamurthy Sir,

Greetings. Thank you for sharing the email with the forum. Sri.Jayendra Sarasvathi Swamigal did involve in reaching to the comon persons. However, Swamigal had to do them independent of the Mutt. However it was done, one can not deny the fact about Swamigal's efforts.

Sir, I said "But the common caste brahmin has no power to convince the orthodoxy to look at the reality. As with many NB castes, they are practicing untouchability without any problem". Since the orthodoxy is not extending towards the Harijans and such lower castes, they have no power to question other NBs who discriminate lower castes. "முன் கை நீண்டால் முழங்கை தானே நீளும்." If the orthodoxy acts to adopt equitable treatment towards all castes, then everyone would fall in line.

Hope I conveyed my views more clearer this time.

Cheers!

 

[srikrish85]

Ofcourse... the caste system is a bane to our Hindu society.

And the casteism became much more rigid by the influence of Buddhists and Jains...

The above mentioned religions emphasized on Ahimsa....

Thus... involving in any killing of animals (which is common among Vedic Hindus) became a sin. Thus people involved in Leather work and hunting became the most repressed peoples.

Nevertheless, it makes sense to reason that Ashoka’s policy of discouraging the killing and maiming of animals added to the stigma on killing animals (as done by tribals who were still at the hunter-gatherer stage) and on working with dead animal substances (as done by leather-workers/Chamars or scavengers/Bhangis). Incidentally, even the Shaiva Hindu king Harsha of Kanauj “caused the use of animal food to cease throughout his dominions and prohibited the taking of life so the stigma on professions tainted by violence is certainly not an exclusive contribution of Buddhism.

The analogy with the despised Burakumin of Japan could be cited: they are the progeny of butchers who bear the hereditary stigma of their ancestors’ disrespect for the Buddhist rule of non-violence and right livelihood.

But nevertheless Buddhism is an ascetic religion and their mutts started to gain fame, and eventually the Panth of the 9th Avatar of Vishnu started to spread.

The Vedic Brahmans realizing that their position getting threatened by the Ahimsa ideals of Buddhism started to emulate their Ahimsa and rigidify the Varnashrama Dharma. Even the Manav Dharma Sastra itself, though grudgingly, accepts the varna crossovers of the to 3 tier (Brahman, Khatriya and Vaisya). But the Bhagavad Gita (which is compiled when the Vedic Religion is at its lowest Ebb) stresses on Varna Sankara and Krishna also says "It is better to do one's duty partially rather than doing others' duty perfectly"...

Such havoc the caste has caused in our subcontinent, in contrast to southeast. You can see many Hindus in Indonesia and virtually all the inhabitants of Bali islands are Hindus. But they are Sudras and when my uncle visited the land, a taxi driver recited Gayatri Mantra and proudly proclaimed him as Sudra. Can anyone Sudra in our Subcontinent proclaim it? He will be beaten and will be forced to eat feces (such incident happened in south of TN, dominated by Thevars and a poor sudra incidentally passed on the haughty peoples' street...)


Bah... let us end this filth.. even though we wish to end this... our Mauupeetaadhipthis will not do it... They even interpolated the Bhashyas of Ramanuj and Sankara... what to do... time is the only healer.

 

[happyhindu]

Ofcourse... the caste system is a bane to our Hindu society.

And the casteism became much more rigid by the influence of Buddhists and Jains...

The above mentioned religions emphasized on Ahimsa....

Thus... involving in any killing of animals (which is common among Vedic Hindus) became a sin. Thus people involved in Leather work and hunting became the most repressed peoples.

Nevertheless, it makes sense to reason that Ashoka’s policy of discouraging the killing and maiming of animals added to the stigma on killing animals (as done by tribals who were still at the hunter-gatherer stage) and on working with dead animal substances (as done by leather-workers/Chamars or scavengers/Bhangis). Incidentally, even the Shaiva Hindu king Harsha of Kanauj “caused the use of animal food to cease throughout his dominions and prohibited the taking of life so the stigma on professions tainted by violence is certainly not an exclusive contribution of Buddhism.

The analogy with the despised Burakumin of Japan could be cited: they are the progeny of butchers who bear the hereditary stigma of their ancestors’ disrespect for the Buddhist rule of non-violence and right livelihood.

Am not sure what this post is conveying. However, Buddhism and Jainism are not responsible for the creation of casteism or untouchables / repressed people. It is said that untouchability existed before buddhism.

The Burakamin were never as despised or stigmatized as some Indians seem to paint them to be. Practically everyone in Japan was / is a meat eater (except folks like monks). It is very rare to find a vegetarian Japanese. And there was / is no stigma associated with butchery.

But nevertheless Buddhism is an ascetic religion and their mutts started to gain fame, and eventually the Panth of the 9th Avatar of Vishnu started to spread.

Staunch Buddhists do not accept that Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu.

The Vedic Brahmans realizing that their position getting threatened by the Ahimsa ideals of Buddhism started to emulate their Ahimsa and rigidify the Varnashrama Dharma. Even the Manav Dharma Sastra itself, though grudgingly, accepts the varna crossovers of the to 3 tier (Brahman, Khatriya and Vaisya). But the Bhagavad Gita (which is compiled when the Vedic Religion is at its lowest Ebb) stresses on Varna Sankara and Krishna also says "It is better to do one's duty partially rather than doing others' duty perfectly"...

Krishna did not say that a boy must inherit the varna of his father / ancestors. And Krishna did not say anywhere in the Bhagavad Gita that a boy must inherit the 'occupation' (or jaati) of his father either. Better we stop (mis)using Krishna to justify the rigid-sort of Varna System. Even in Mahabharat the duties of the foreign tribes (that is, mlecchas who possibly were the vaseetas / vashistas) was decided by Indra, and not by Krishna.

Such havoc the caste has caused in our subcontinent, in contrast to southeast. You can see many Hindus in Indonesia and virtually all the inhabitants of Bali islands are Hindus. But they are Sudras and when my uncle visited the land, a taxi driver recited Gayatri Mantra and proudly proclaimed him as Sudra. Can anyone Sudra in our Subcontinent proclaim it? He will be beaten and will be forced to eat feces (such incident happened in south of TN, dominated by Thevars and a poor sudra incidentally passed on the haughty peoples' street...)

It is a known fact that former rulers of indonesian islands like Bali were from the merchant class (merchant princes). The hold of 'varna' system was never rigid in the past there (but it became birth based and rigid in the medieval times - and the rulers there also claimed to be 'kshatriya' in the later / medieval times).

Indians do have a 'class problem'. They do not like to see a servant becoming their equal. Casteism (imo) is a labour issue not a race issue (as some make it out to be in the international level).

Bah... let us end this filth.. even though we wish to end this... our Mauupeetaadhipthis will not do it... They even interpolated the Bhashyas of Ramanuj and Sankara... what to do... time is the only healer.

Today, the law of the land is not longer dependent on the dharmashastra nor on the brahmin lawgivers. Interpolation to promote one's identity has always been the bane of sanatana dharma. Time is God. Yes, it can and will heal.

Regards.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

yes that's why lots of people convert from hinduism. only upper caste benefit totally.
coz even among fellow brahmin community some people believe in colour discrimination. They believe that brahmins are fair and non brahmins are dark skinned. that's why dark skinned brahmin girls are neglected in marriage coz people believe that they must have non brahmins links.
Some say that non brahmins are uncivilised and are not patient and brahmins are more patient. but even among brahmins there are arogant people.
And u know I sensed that when i went back to tamil nadu. Some were very good while some very ugly(I mean their nature).
When one asks this question about castism it makes one to ponder upon something which is very much obvious i.e the inherent/inbuild bias in hinduism.
Sikhism emerged from hinduism and islam. It took goods from each and dispensed with bad. It didn't take castism and idol worshipping and animal sacrifice to make god happy or unscientific things like 7 births. Even though it is present in minor form i.e castism but its very few. Those sikhs who do it are ignorant of the guru's teachings.
I had earlier reiterated in this forum that castism has no place in a secular, democratic and civil society. Its against humanity and evil. I stand by it.
I'm a hindu for the teachings of gita and vedas and upanishads and I don't believe in the age old castism which was used to discriminate among humans.
Not only that there are a lot of things in the scriptures that need amendment with the changing times e.g sati mentioned in rig veda etc etc.

CHANGE IS THE ONLY CONSTANT Everything flows, nothing stands still. OnE HAS to change with the time otherwise he is left behind.

 

[srikrish85]

Staunch Buddhists do not accept that Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu.
Smt Happyji, staunch/rigid Hindus and their haughty mutts also reject the Buddha and the Buddhists.
Some Hindus, even went to an extreme that Vishnu wanted to evade the Asuras or melechchas from Vedic path.

But the irony i see among the South Indian staunch and self styled defenders of Dharam, is that Vishnu is very kind and etc... If Krishan is so kind, then why should he want to evade them from the Vedic path? This indeed is a mischief done by the Muttpeedaathipathis.

But there are some casual Hindus those embrace Buddha (or even saints of all faith, like Jesus, Zoraster, Muhammed, Hussain, etc.).
Caste/class is not bad, but the atrocities meted out in the name of pure caste is bad. That is what happened in India (and is still happening).

Since every society have a classification. I have read about an articles saying about the 5 kinds of workers (in my English book during my UG). But the author did not say, the first one is good and second one is bad etc... I really liked it.

That's the reason why, I love the Bhakti saints, they are not caste conscious, the 15 saints starting from Ramanand, Kabir, Sadhana, Beni, Bhaikan, Raidas, Surdas, Namdev, Eknath, Gyananand, Gauranga, Paramanand, Dhanna, Pipa, Jaidev, Tukaram etc. But I really hate the SI (in future I'll refer South Indian as SI for convenience) Aacharyas. Sage Bhasava also did a lot to bring equality (Lingayats), but after 2 to 3 Generations the inequalities started to raise its hood.

Even in the North apart from the Bhakti saints, others who started their panth for noble cause, (their panth) was tainted by inequalities.

Look @ Guru Nanak. He started a panth to pacify the then squabbling Hindus and Mohemmudans. He chose Angad Dev purely based on Merit. Angad passed his Guru Gaddi to a ripe old man Amar Das (on merit). Amar Das appointed Ramdas his son-in-law (on merit). From that, the Gurudom itself started to act as a caste job. The Khatri and Aroras started to keep their gurudom within their caste and especially to their lineage. Ramdas was followed by his son Arjan, followed by Hari Govind (Arjan's first son). Then came Hari Rai (son of Hari Govind). He even outcasted his son Ram Rai. Ram Rai went a little bit further altering the original Verse (of Nanak) Mitti Mussalman ki pede pai kumhar (A moslem will be born as a mud and a potter will squeeze him) to Mitti Bheeman ki pede pai kumhar (A bad moslem will be born as a Mud and a potter will squeeze him). Then the Gurudom was passed to his 6 year old son Guru Hari Krishan. On his death bed Hari Krishan appointed his grand uncle Guru Tegh Bahadur, then Tyaag Mal. He (Tegh Bhadur) is a pure saint. Before leaving to Agra, Tegh Bahadur appointed Govind Singh, then Govind Rai. The irony is that, Govind wanted to avenge his father's death. During the Khalsa Panth creation, all castes were accepted into his ranks (which was a Good Sign). But he reverted back to polytheistic and brahminical hinduism. His sons were killed by Moghuls. He cannot accept any other person apart from his sons as gurus. So he declared that the Granth to be the eternal Guru on his death bed.

Then we had Sikh empire and Ranjit Singh. He also started to embrace Brahminical Hinduism rather than the pristine Sikhism. He gave cows to Brahmins for charity. He made cowslaughter a capital offense. When the Afgans were under his mercy, he ordered the gates of Somnath back from them. He gifteted thrice as much gold he donated to Golden Temple as to the newly makeshift of Vishwanath Temple in Kashi. And one big deplorable act is, like we Hindus do (always), his wives and concubines committed jauhar in his funeral pyre. And it was the first and last big jauhar in 19th century (the Khalisthani extremists always overlook this fact). He even threatened the Emirs of Sindh of an invasion if they did not stop persecuting Hindus.

Now every religion in India (be it Islam, Christianity, Sikh, Jain or Buddhist) is rotting with the caste atrocities. Buddhist Mahars hate the Chamars. Jains still use to marry off their children to their own caste (even Jain agarwaals marry their off-springs and siblings to Hindu Agarwaals rather than to Jain ozwaals..) Sikh Jat marry with Hindu Jat rather than with Mazhabi. The BSP is thorougly started due to atrocities on dalits. Even the Sikhs, who shout from their roof to that everyone are equal to the eyes of God, treat the Mazhabis badly.

We just cannot throw the blame on politicians for causing a rift between castes. Fundamentally our mindset has to be changed. But even after 63 years of independence, the situation remains the same.

Now I have one question, did not Sri Krishna, stressed on hereditary caste system??? Please explain. And others... I just lament here, my intention was not to throw insult.

Finally what I see here today is that, we Hindus are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

If we say we accept and worship Buddha or Nanak, the caste mutts shout that we're following Melechcha dharma. If we do the other-way around, the others obviously say we are being radical.

 

[happyhindu]

Srikrish,

After i posted the note above on Burakamin, i started reading more on them. I stand corrected. The burakamin were indeed despiced much. However, the stigma appears to not come from butchery of the meat-eating kind. The stigma came more from the fact that they also doubled as executioners, handled corpses (including those of animals in the past), and worked in jobs that involved filth (like farming, bcoz in the past farmers in japan used to use animal as well as human feaces as manure).

Anyways, thankfully, they had no religious significance attached to their caste system. And their caste system was legally abolished about 140 years back. Changing times seem to have helped them. They appear to have integrated into the mainstream (so much that there is a confusion about their official numbers now).

Staunch Buddhists do not accept that Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu.
Smt Happyji, staunch/rigid Hindus and their haughty mutts also reject the Buddha and the Buddhists.
Some Hindus, even went to an extreme that Vishnu wanted to evade the Asuras or melechchas from Vedic path.

Am a bit confused about the usage of the term asura / rakshasa. Because in some scriptures even jains are called mlechhas. Lokayatas / charvakas were called Rakshasas. Perhaps anything that was considered 'non-vedic' came to be dubbed asura / mlecchas / rakshasa and so on.

But the irony i see among the South Indian staunch and self styled defenders of Dharam, is that Vishnu is very kind and etc... If Krishan is so kind, then why should he want to evade them from the Vedic path? This indeed is a mischief done by the Muttpeedaathipathis.

But there are some casual Hindus those embrace Buddha (or even saints of all faith, like Jesus, Zoraster, Muhammed, Hussain, etc.).
Caste/class is not bad, but the atrocities meted out in the name of pure caste is bad. That is what happened in India (and is still happening).

Since every society have a classification. I have read about an articles saying about the 5 kinds of workers (in my English book during my UG). But the author did not say, the first one is good and second one is bad etc... I really liked it.

That's the reason why, I love the Bhakti saints, they are not caste conscious, the 15 saints starting from Ramanand, Kabir, Sadhana, Beni, Bhaikan, Raidas, Surdas, Namdev, Eknath, Gyananand, Gauranga, Paramanand, Dhanna, Pipa, Jaidev, Tukaram etc. But I really hate the SI (in future I'll refer South Indian as SI for convenience) Aacharyas. Sage Bhasava also did a lot to bring equality (Lingayats), but after 2 to 3 Generations the inequalities started to raise its hood.

Even in the North apart from the Bhakti saints, others who started their panth for noble cause, was tainted by inequalities.

Look @ Guru Nanak. He started a panth to pacify the then squabbling Hindus and Mohemmudans. He chose Angad Dev purely based on Merit. Angad passed his Guru Gaddi to a ripe old man Amar Das (on merit). Amar Das appointed Ramdas his son-in-law (on merit). From that, the Gurudom itself started to act as a caste job. The Khatri and Aroras started to keep their gurudom within their caste and especially to their lineage. Ramdas was followed by his son Arjan, followed by Hari Govind (Arjan's first son). Then came Hari Rai (son of Hari Govind). He even outcasted his son Ram Rai. Ram Rai went a little bit further altering the original Verse (of Nanak) Mitti Mussalman ki pede pai kumhar (A moslem will be born as a mud and a potter will squeeze him) to Mitti Bheeman ki pede pai kumhar (A bad moslem will be born as a Mud and a potter will squeeze him). Then the Gurudom was passed to his 6 year old son Guru Hari Krishan. On his death bed Hari Krishan appointed his grand uncle Guru Tegh Bahadur, then Tyaag Mal. He (Tegh Bhadur) is a pure saint. Before leaving to Agra, Tegh Bahadur appointed Govind Singh, then Govind Rai. The irony is that, Govind wanted to avenge his father's death. During the Khalsa Panth creation, all castes were accepted into his ranks (which was a Good Sign).
But he reverted back to puraanic hinduism. His sons were killed by Moghuls. He cannot accept any other person apart from his sons as gurus. So he declared that the Granth to be the eternal Guru on his death bed.

Then we had Sikh empire and Ranjit Singh. He also started to embrace Brahminical Hinduism rather than the pristine Sikhism. He gave cows to Brahmins for charity. He made cowslaughter a capital offense. When the Afgans were under his mercy, he ordered the gates of Somnath back from them. He gifteted thrice as much gold he donated to Golden Temple as to the newly makeshift of Vishwanath Temple in Kashi. And another deplorable act is, like we Hindus do (always), his wives and concubines committed jauhar in his funeral pyre.

Now every religion in India (be it Islam, Christianity, Sikh, Jain or Buddhist) is rotting with the caste atrocities. Buddhist Mahars hate the Chamars. Jains still use to marry off their children to their own caste (even Jain agarwaals marry their off-springs and siblings to Hindu Agarwaals rather than to Jain ozwaals..) Sikh Jat marry with Hindu Jat rather than with Mazhabi. The BSP is thorougly started due to atrocities on dalits. Even the Sikhs, who shout from their roof to that everyone are equal to the eyes of God, treat the Mazhabis badly.

We just cannot throw the blame on politicians for causing a rift between castes. Fundamentally our mindset has to be changed. But even after 63 years of independence, the situation remains the same.

Now I have one question, did not Sri Krishna, stressed on hereditary caste system??? Please explain. And others... I just lament here, my intention was not to throw insult.

True, no religion in India can excape casteism because the dominant majority hindus practice it. And so it has become part and parcel of the "social system". The vast majority does not hold on to any 'religious' value. Instead, caste system and discrimination is (or has become) just a socially accepted norm.

Btw, Khatris as much as they claim, are not Kshatriyas (this is sufficient material available on this). Their kshatriyas claims come from the fact they were like merchants-princes in the past, as well as in more recent times (the burdwan maharajas being an example). The khatris are not a homogenous grouping either. Promoting or demoting class positions did exist in the past (example: position of the rathakaras). It is also said merchants / traders converted to jains because their occupations were demoted to that of shudras (sufficient material is available on this also). But ofcourse the 'hindu' revival in the post-shankara period, helped in the creation of many descent and origin theories; with suitable 'written' works.

According to some, Krishna may have represented the Jaina / Shaiva / Advaitha beleif systems. So if a cult lost to Krishna they actually came to be influenced / dominated by Shaivism. There are quite a few interpretations to this. Diff researchers bring out diff scenarios. Am speculating if perhaps there was more than one Krishna. Or perhaps some events came to be (falsely) attributed to Krishna (by imaginative writers). Right now am not able to say much. My understanding is limited and it wud take more time to learn more. Perhaps other forum members may help you. And perhaps this may help: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/secretcode.asp

But yes, imo, Krishna cannot be blamed for heredity caste system. We do inherit our interests / proclivities, which in turn helps decide our occupation. But a boy need not have the same interests as the father. An individual's karma is his own. Neither does a boy inherit the same circumstances as his father. Circumstances do play a big role in everyone's life, and influence the choices we make. In the past, people of the same family may have moved on to different occupations just as they do now. Identities may have been assumed as much as they might have been given up. Village sorcerors, temple priests or anyone dealing with supernatural powers may have passed themselves off for brahmins. Different kingdoms may have followed different social systems. So today it is not possible to claim that one size must fit all. Nor can we blame / use Krishna to claim that heredity caste system existed everywhere.

Finally what I see here today is that, we Hindus are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

If we say we accept and worship Buddha or Nanak, the caste mutts shout that we're following Melechcha dharma. If we do the other-way around, the others obviously say we are being radical.

The simple formula i follow is this -- it does not matter if it is nanak, buddha, krishna, rama, jesus, allah, or just any other name / entity. Perhaps there is a 'higher' power that decides everything. No one knows why various god-constructs and worship-motifs occur to us. no one knows why the mind 'feels it' and creates 'it'. Love is innate in every living creature and it is best to go by that instinct. If something feels like "not right", then do not be afraid to question things. If we are bound to make mistakes then mistakes will happen. It wud be our own ill fate if we loose any opportunity to correct ourselves if and when our notions turn out to be false. Holding on to anything too much (over attachment of any kind) does not yield good results. So better to be detached, play out the limited role of our own karma, hopefully shed past baggage as much as possible and die as a content soul.

Regards.

 

[Nara]

.....Indians do have a 'class problem'. They do not like to see a servant becoming their equal. Casteism (imo) is a labour issue not a race issue (as some make it out to be in the international level).

Yes Happy, they have a class issue, but they also have a caste issue. It is similar to race issue in as much as they both are birth/descent based constructs. Whatever may be the origin, however flexible it may have been in eons past, it is an indisputable fact that caste is birth-based and immutable in the present for all practical purposes. If the establishment refuses to recognize this fact, then the only option left to the truly oppressed is to appeal to the international community in the hope of shaming the locals, at least those locals who are decent and wish to be progressive.

Cheers!

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Infact some hindus treat sikhism, jainism and buddhism as subsects which they are not comfortable with.
They say this sikhism evolved from hinduism which is negated by sikhs.
Pure Tibetan Buddhism there is no binding as to meat eating. But in India they have prohibited by themselves in monasteries.
And hindus also idol worship buddha which is against practices of buddhism.
In major temples there r separate sannadhis for siddhartha.
And in text book named sanxhipt buddhcharita it mentions that buddha died coz he ate stale meat in a low caste hindu's house.

 

[srikrish85]

Ramji,

Bhagwan Shri Buddha died because of eating stale meat??? hmm.... interesting indeed...

srikrish85 u have indeed posted an interesting observation.

What??? Naan ennavo rambabam pottukittirukken naan nanichikittirundhen...


Summa solladhinga sir. Unmaya solunga.

They say this sikhism evolved from hinduism which is negated by sikhs.

Some (or even many) say so.

 

[srikrish85]

Ramji,
And one more interesting point that I note in Sikh religion is that there is a lot of Hindu element in them.
See, unlike Jains and Buddhists there is no separate cosmology for the sikhs (i.e. creation of universe, etc.) . One more point that I find more interesting is, about the Kohinoor diamond. It was under the possession of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. And what did he do with that? This is the most interesting part. He did not give to any of his squabbling sons. Nor did he give it to Hari Mindir, which he studded with Marble and gold. This is fact that most of the Khalisthani extremists used to (or still use) to over look. He gave the Kohinoor diamond to Puri Jagannath temple as his farewell gift.

But this sentence use to show some distinctiveness. (Bani of Guru Arjan dev)
From Hindus and Muslims have I broken free.

The above sentence highlights equality, obviously contrasting it with the “Hindu” caste system.

However, the now-popular claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism, is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not ceased practising caste, but for an authoritative refutation, we may turn to a historian (i think McLeod: Who is a Sihkh?) who scrutinized the record of Sikhism:

“The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste prescriptions. The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which referred to spiritual deliverance and (…) a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.”

Let us see what our Indologists like Dr. Ernst Trumpp and Koenraad Elst say from the following.

Till today, Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs, that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh and the founder of BSP Khansi Ram Singh).

But Guru Arjan’s statement, is superficially a crystal-clear expression of Sikh separateness.

Yet, it is not as straightforward as separatists might wish.

No Sikh Guru was ever a Muslim, ergo the half-sentence: “Of Muslims have I broken free”, does not mean that he abandoned Islam. Therefore, the other half need not be construed as a repudiation of Hinduism either. Rather, it may be read as repudiating the whole “identity” business including the division of mankind into Hindu and Muslim categories, on the Upanishadic ground that the Self is beyond these superficial trappings (the Self being neti neti, “not this, not that”)-but that is a typically Hindu and decidedly un-Islamic position. To the Quran, group identity (being a member of the Muslim ummah or not) is everything, is laden with far-reaching consequences including an eternity in heaven or in hell. To Hindu society, it is also undeniably important; but to Hindu spirituality, it is not. Likewise, another verse of the same poem, “I will not pray to idols nor say the Muslim prayer”, is more anti-Islamic than anti-Hindu: it rejects a duty binding every single Muslim (prayer) and a practice common among Hindus (idol-worship) but by no means obligatory.

Boa-constrictor

Many Hindu haters have called Hinduism as a boa constrictor. Max Arthur Macauliffe, highly placed British administrator told the Sikhs that Hinduism was like a ‘boa constrictor of the Indian forest’ which ‘winds its opponent and finally causes it to disappear in its capacious interior’. The Sikhs ‘may go that way’, he warned.

The “boa constrictor” account is repeated by many Hindu haters. They are worried by Hindu open-mindedness: “Hinduism has this enormous capacity of taking everything in its embrace: you can be an idol worshipper, you can be an idol breaker; you can believe in one god, you can believe in a thousand gods; you can have a caste system, you can deny the caste system (but none does it); you can be an agnostic, atheist, or whatever else you like, and remain a Hindu. What can you do about it? It is this power of absorption of Hinduism, that it is even willing to recognize Prophet Mohammed as an Avatar of Vishnu, that poses the real challenge to other religions."(Many Faces by K Singh).
The statement contains exaggerations (idol breaker, Mohammed as avatar?!)
[Mohammed is equated with Vishnu’s tenth incarnation Kalki in the Khojâ Vrittânta scripture of the Ismaili Khojas in Gujarat (M.A. Jinnah’s community), a kind of inculturation tactic to woo Gujarati Banias into Islam. However, the doctrine of incarnation (avatârvâd) is deeply offensive to Islam, which sees shirk, “association (of other beings with God)” as its worst enemy. Classically, shirk has the general sense of “polytheism”, but originally it meant very specifically the “association” of a freshly decoded prominent human individual with a deity (parallel to what the Greeks called apotheosis), the way Krishna got “associated” with Vishnu (i.e. posthumously recognized as partaking of the essence of that deity); see, for examples of the shirk of Ugaritic kings with god Ilu (Hebrew El/Eloha, Arabic al-Ilâb,= Allâh), J.C. De Moor: The Rise of Yahwism, p.330-331.]
But we get the message: Hinduism’s accommodation of different spiritual approaches is a problem for separatists. This is yet another instance of how Hindus are “damned if they do, damned if they don’t”: had they been intolerant, this would of course be held against them, but even when they are found to be tolerant and accommodating, it is still interpreted as an evil design. When Hinduism integrates new elements, it is not proof of broad-mindedness, but of a strategy of swallowing the minorities.” [For partisan studies criticizing Hindu “inclusivism” as a manifestation of their intolerance, vide e.g. W. Halbfass: India and Europe, Ch.22, or G. Oberhammer, ed.: Inklusivismus, eine indische Denkform.]

As Arun Shourie remarks, after describing some examples of how Hindu tradition has integrated “Dravidian” and “Aryan” elements: “Why is it that (…) for our columnists and our communists that decision is yet another instance of the devious devices by which Hinduism has been ‘swallowing up’ other traditions?” [A. Shourie: Secular Agenda, p. 16-17.]

In the case of Sikhism, at any rate, the boa metaphor does not really fit the case (this may fit Buddhism and Jainism since their concepts are totally different): ikhism has sprung from Hinduism, and it is not as if the two were strangers who met one day and then the one decided to swallow up the other. But it may be said that in the 19th century, Hinduism was reabsorbing Sikhism, and that it may yet complete this process in the future.

That the Sikhs “regarded themselves as Hindus” is confirmed by Khushwant Singh, who concedes that three centuries of Sikh history after Nanak, including the creation of the Khalsa as a Sikh martial vanguard by Guru Govind Singh, were not enough to make Sikhism into a separate religion: “However, what is worthwhile to bear in mind is that, despite these innovations, this new community, the Khalsa Panth, remained an integral part of the Hindu social and religious system. It is significant that when Tegh Bahadur was summoned to Delhi, he went as a representative of the Hindus. He was executed in the year 1675. His son who succeeded him as guru later described his father’s martyrdom as in the cause of the Hindu faith, ‘to preserve their caste marks and their sacred thread did he perform the supreme sacrifice’. The guru himself looked upon his community as an integral part of the Hindu social system.” [Khushwant Singh: Many Faces, p.6.]

But finally I'll tell you how Govind Singh reverted back to Polytheistic and Vedic hinduism in the following verses (with translations).

Sakal jagat mein khalsa panth gaaje
Jage dharma Hindu, sakal bhand bhaje

Let the path of the pure prevail all over the world
Let the Hindu dharma dawn and all delusion disappear.

Dharam vedamaryaada jag mein chalaaun
Gaughaat kaa dosh jag se mitaaun

May I spread dharma and prestige of the Veda in the world.
And erase from it the sin of cow-slaughter.

[References: Secular Agenda by Arun Shourie p. 3 - 11)

Now now... let us put an end to it. I think I'll be typing more and more. Just to say, Sikhism is no different from Hinduism. It is also known for its caste based atrocities (eg as quoted above.. Khansi Ram Singh).

Good night.