Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[R. Ramanujan]

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boss i don't understand tamil that much either hindi or english.
i didn't say its the general perception in north and im not sure. anyways now i searched and came up with one thing at least.


inthango sorry for goffing up in stale i should have said poisned.
Swami Brahmananda | Sri Chinmoy Reflections
In Lord Buddha’s case, a man gave him poisoned meat and then the Buddha died. As he was dying, when someone asked him about the man who had poisoned him, Lord Buddha said, “Forgive him! Forgive him! He has not done this intentionally.”

And brahmins in north believe that that guy was a low caste guy coz buddha never named him so they speculate coz at that times mostly brahmins were strict veg.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

as far as sikhs are concerned there is no doubt that their ancestors were aryans and they have aryan blood in their veins but that doesn't concern them. they always spoke about their religion as separate one esp after 1984 genocide. they want separate anand marriage act for them but the aryans resist it. aryans have always treated sikhs as sub sect and said it came from hinduism.
there is no doubt that it has hindu and islamic elements like pond as in earlier hindu shahi temples like katasraj etc. but fundamental principle varies that is caste system and idol worshipping and 7 births and animal sacrifice as in islam.
they took best in both. still some sikhs practice castism but they are discouraged by true sikhs.
What is Sikhism?

 

[srikrish85]

as far as sikhs are concerned there is no doubt that their ancestors were aryans and they have aryan blood in their veins but that doesn't concern them.

Who are your mythical Aryans? For AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) I request you to request Smt HHji to explain it to you. She has an indepth knowledge in Aryan-Dravidian theories. But as far as we know the Aryan theory is just a colonial make up.

First our Indian minds must be decolonized.

but fundamental principle varies that is caste system and idol worshipping and 7 births and animal sacrifice as in islam. they took best in both. still some sikhs practice castism but they are discouraged by true sikhs.

Sorry, the Gurus themselves practiced caste (but they rejected the inequalities). So it is hard for them to neglect it. Where did you get the reference of 7 births? Please explain (in terms of Hinduism).

Do you know, that most of the Sikh Gurus used to go for hunting on a regular basis (except for Hari Rai, who will go for a hunt but will not kill the animals)?

Now they worship the Book. Is it not Idolatry?

And the site that you gave as reference is a missionary site. They are used to cook up stories and tell some falsehood in sugarcoated way, to attract adherents (but I do not condemn their proselytization, but I condemn the methods).

 

[pannvalan]

Yes, if not idol worship, worshipping some figures or symbols do exist in every religion.

1. In Christianity, the Holy Cross, The Jesus in the crucified state, Mother Mary and figures of famous/holy churches are revered and worshipped.

2. In Islam, the verses from the Holy Quran, the Quran Book and Mecca Masjid (Kaaba) are worshipped.

3. In Sikhism, the Holy Guru Grantha Saheb, The Golden temple at Amritsar and all Gurus' figures are worshipped.

4. In Buddhism, the figure of Buddha in various postures, shapes and sizes are worshipped, Even his 'tooth' and 'nail' are believed to have been
preserved and worshipped.

5. In Jainism too, the figures of all 'Thirthankaras' are worshipped.

Thus, for meditation or to rest one's mind at the time of peaceful prayers, some external physical object is necessary. Meditation in vacuum at least for people in the initial stages of their spiritual journey is not possible. But it cannot be gainsaid that nearly 90% of the ordinary masses, regardless of their country of origin, religion and level of education fall in this category.

That is the reason why idol worship could not be got rid of. Hinduism thrives in spite of atheism, iconoclasm and all, precisely because of this fact.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

to srikrish85- boss i don't you have so much misconceptions abt sikhism. they don't worship books.
don't say this to any amrithdhari. he will take offense. i have experienced it so thats why.
hunting was a sport at those times. anyways sikhism doesn't preach vegetarianism. Most of the tigers and lions were killed by raja maharaja of rajasthan and gujarat.
I strongly believe that aryans invaded india and dravidians were original inhabititants of india in sindh civilisation. this is coz baluchistan there was a dravidian civilisation now its islamic but islam came after aryans stepped in. so that makes tamil oldest indic languages. but the form has changed over years. Brahmi was a asokan period language which after he converted to buddhism was spread all over indian subcontinent including sri lanka and elsewhere.
i we dig the past there were situations and pure sikhs don't practice caste at all. those who do it don't know abt sikhism.
as far as jainism is concerned they idol worship their own separate gods and in buddhism there is strict no of idol worshipping .even his holiness told that idol worshipping is not preached in buddhism.
They admire sikh gurus for their teachings and they don't idol worship them. they treat guru granth sahib as their last guru and thus they pay homage to the great works of gurus nothing else.
anyways i must admit neither of us know sikhism and others fully and we keep on speculating and its not fair.

 

[pannvalan]

Ramanujan,

This Aryan invasion theory has already been pooh-poohed by many renowned historians. Hence, please don't believe it anymore.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

im just curious but i want to know the truth.
infact just read this webpage. don't go into who is running sir. just read every para.
CHRISTIAN INDIA MINISTRIES

even i don't know for sure.

 

[srikrish85]

to srikrish85- boss i don't you have so much misconceptions abt sikhism. they don't worship books.
don't say this to any amrithdhari. he will take offense. i have experienced it so thats why.
hunting was a sport at those times. anyways sikhism doesn't preach vegetarianism. Most of the tigers and lions were killed by raja maharaja of rajasthan and gujarat.
I strongly believe that aryans invaded india and dravidians were original inhabititants of india in sindh civilisation. this is coz baluchistan there was a dravidian civilisation now its islamic but islam came after aryans stepped in. so that makes tamil oldest indic languages. but the form has changed over years. Brahmi was a asokan period language which after he converted to buddhism was spread all over indian subcontinent including sri lanka and elsewhere.
i we dig the past there were situations and pure sikhs don't practice caste at all. those who do it don't know abt sikhism.
as far as jainism is concerned they idol worship their own separate gods and in buddhism there is strict no of idol worshipping .even his holiness told that idol worshipping is not preached in buddhism.
They admire sikh gurus for their teachings and they don't idol worship them. they treat guru granth sahib as their last guru and thus they pay homage to the great works of gurus nothing else.
anyways i must admit neither of us know sikhism and others fully and we keep on speculating and its not fair.

Buddy, do you know that Morthi Pooja and Deepak Pooja are the jewels given to us by Jainism?.

Now to those who say Hindus worship idols refer the following,

Worshiping any image is IDOLATRY.

Yes an Amrith Dhari will scoff off. I'm going to take references directly from Granth

ਜੋ ਇਹ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੈ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਏ ਫਲੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਆਧਿ ਬਯਾਧਿ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਸਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੮੫੯॥
जो इह कथा सुनै अरु गावै ॥ दूख पाप तिह निकटि न आवै ॥ बिसनु भगति की ए फलु होई ॥ आधि बयाधि छ्वै सकै न कोई ॥८५९॥
He, who will listen to this story and sing it, he will be free from the sufferings and sins. The reward of the devotion to Vishnu (and his incarnation Ram) that no ailment of any kind will touch him.


Regarding caste positions, I take references from the Granth directly

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰੋ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਸਾਜਾ ॥ ਦੇਸ ਦੇਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਤੇ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਦੰਡ ਸੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਹੁਤੀ ਸਾਸਨਾ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੮੩੭॥
बहु बिधि करो राज को साजा ॥ देस देस के जीते राजा ॥ साम दाम अरु दंड सु भेदा ॥ जिह बिधि हुती सासना बेदा ॥८३७॥
Performing his royal duties in many ways and practising Sama, Dama, Dand and Bhed and other methods of administration, Ram conquered other kings of many countries.

ਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਚਾਰ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬਰਨ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਰੈਂ ਬਿੱਪ੍ਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਬੈਸ ਲਖੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਹ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੮੩੮॥
बरन बरन अपुनी क्रित लाए ॥ चार चार ही बरन चलाए ॥ छत्री करैं बि्प्र की सेवा ॥ बैस लखै छ्त्री कह देवा ॥८३८॥
He caused every caste to do its duties and set in motion Varnashram Dharma; Kshatriyas began to serve the Brahmin and the Vaishyas considered the Kshatriyas as gods.

ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸਭਨ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਜਹ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤਹੀ ਵਹ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੈਸਕ ਹੁਤੀ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਨਾ ॥ ਨਿਕਸਾ ਤੈਸ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਰਸਨਾ ॥੮੩੯॥
सूद्र सभन की सेव कमावै ॥ जह कोई कहै तही वह धावै ॥ जैसक हुती बेद सासना ॥ निकसा तैस राम की रसना ॥८३९॥
The Shudras began to serve all and they went wherever they were sent; Ram always talked from his mouth about practicing administration according to Vedas.

ਰਾਵਣਾਦਿ ਰਣਿ ਹਾਂਕਿ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਸੇਵਕ ਗਣ ਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਲੰਕਾ ਦਈ ਟੰਕ ਜਨੁ ਦੀਨੋ ॥ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਰਾਜ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਕੀਨੋ ॥੮੪੦॥
रावणादि रणि हांकि संघारे ॥ भांति भांति सेवक गण तारे ॥ लंका दई टंक जनु दीनो ॥ इह बिधि राज जगत मै कीनो ॥८४०॥
Ram ruled by killing the tyrants like Ravana, by emancipating different devotees and attendants (ganas) and by collecting the taxes of Lanka.

Why the Gurus praise Ram avatar and bring in the caste system. Do you know that Guru Govind, when creating the Khalsa panth, ordered his Amrithdhaaris to be strict vegetarians (otherwise he told them that he would become a patit ie.e an apostate?)

 

[kunjuppu]

Sri,

We cannot deny calcified caste system has been the central focus of hindu way of life for some time now. As we can see, there are strong feeling aroused here from many members. I would not be surprised by old men and women flogging this attitude, but surprising number of young members appear to be wedded to it.

Admittedly, this forum is not a representation of the tambram & its palakkad cousin pattars (of which I am one). There is this, I notice, a soft eroding of this caste rigidity, occurring in the cities. Many many reasons are attributed to it, but I look upon as a irreversible movement of our society, and it is from this point I would start. Not to look back and try to bring back the irreversibles, because I think, that the erosion of caste is inevitable in the context of current india, and is also a very welcome phenonmenon for Hinduism as a whole.

I think what has made this a serious issue for us tambrams is the current problem of not finding brides for our boys. Almost daily I hear from here and elsewhere, of boys’ parents unable to find dil for their sons in their 30s and edging to 40s. since it is a current event, and we have no reliable research or population data: it is attributed to a good number of our girls opting to marry out of tambram group (includes NB as well as Brahmins from other states, which I suspect is a significant number, as in my family, based on info received past few days, what I found to be interstate marriages, are mostly interbrahmin marriages from the north).

Still, this means, that all these girls are out of the marriage pool for our boys, and because of the rigidity of the caste system and our own boys being ‘good’ boys they are, are unable/unwilling to go and do the same thing that our girls are supposed to have done. had our boys the same attitude, then there is no issue.

Also, I suspect, that a good number of our boys perhaps are quietly marrying out of caste or out of state or both. We never hear of them here, because, these too are a satisfied group, and feel no need to explicitly announce their status in this forum.

The same goes for girls and girls’ parents. These too are not represented in our forum, as probably busy getting on with their lives, to spend time typing msgs like the way I do. however, I should confess, the way our own girls and their parents are portrayed by some of the members here, to be uncharitable, if I put it kindly. These girls are our sisters and daughters, and I cannot believe that the stories are attributed to them and the abuse of their parents too. I too can search up stories of boys and their parents and this has been going on for centuries. Unfortunately, there are no girls or girls’ parents to give their pov though we have heard of boy’s side insolence of the past years.

As a community, I think, tambrams have embraced changes quicker than other Indian groups. But other groups are also inevitably on the same path. Marrying off a girl at 20 to prevent her from ‘straying’ is as chauvinistic and indicates a bigger malaise of a society and its insecurities. To me, these appear to be desperate bandaids and I am relieved that tambrams treat their daughters with more dignity & respect, and not like some chattel. Those concepts, I think, are doomed and some of these are last ditch fights to turn the tide of progress and society.

Personally, I do not prescribe as a solution for everyone as our society of 1.2B is too big for any ‘one solution fits for all’. If caste gives you comfort, so be it. Not all of us are well read, and to some, caste is an comfort soother in an otherwise fast changing and increasingly isolated world. The old safety nets of old age security for parents, and built in household help and cheap help, are on their way out, if not disappearing completely. the old paradigms of horoscope matching, which was universal as late as 30 years ago, has to now coexist with ‘love marriages’ or arranged marriages of conveniences and status than of horoscopes.

This I see, has caused great consternation, fear and above all anger – not only at those who chose to follow their own path, but at others who support this. to boys’ parents it is a failure of a policy which they have nurtured in their sons, ie to study and build a career, while mummy daddy will find you a mate at the appropriate time.

I have now one neice in Chennai, a very independent foreign educated girl with intention of settling in Chennai or Mumbai, with dominant traditional minded parents thoroughly into horoscopes. It has been two years and no matches as there simply not enough numbers in the pool to not only fit the jaathagam, but social and economic status, AND to provide a chemistry between the two. And this is for a girl, whose parents are now worried. I can only imagine the situation for parents of boys, and the boys themselves.

What has caste to do with this? everything. In most other societies of the world, there is not so much filtering with faith, culture, society, caste, religion, language, norms, chemistry ie so many factors thrown into what should be a single union of a young man and a young man. Where I live, it starts with chemistry, and in most cases into compatibility and economic goals.

We sure are moving onto new frontiers with our hindu way of life. I think this is only inevitable, as we are finally joining the mainstream of the human community at large re marriage practices. For the uniitiated, china was very much like india till about 50 years ago ie marriages was between families. With increased education and poverty, the Chinese youths have taken their future into their own hands, which I think many of our own youths are attempting to do. should it be stopped? Depends on whom you ask.

Thank you.

 

[ShivKC]

boss i don't understand tamil that much either hindi or english.
i didn't say its the general perception in north and im not sure. anyways now i searched and came up with one thing at least.


inthango sorry for goffing up in stale i should have said poisned.
Swami Brahmananda | Sri Chinmoy Reflections
In Lord Buddha’s case, a man gave him poisoned meat and then the Buddha died. As he was dying, when someone asked him about the man who had poisoned him, Lord Buddha said, “Forgive him! Forgive him! He has not done this intentionally.”

chief, you need to set your thought patterns for a complete petrol laundry wash. Buddha died after relishing pork and having stomach upset. google guddha+pork+died. forgive him forgive him, it only sounds about the words of jesus dangling on cross and speaking to those hung nearby, saying the famous enqlish quote ' papa forgive them for they not know what they have done wrong'.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

@shivkc i know people like u can only breathe venom.u r the same shivkc who posted a thread

whether nb's should be part of this website?
Language is not the issue in this world. All u need is to understand the speaker.
what moral right do you have to preach me.

I born and brought up in north like many tamils
WE don't understand written and read tamils? there are lakhs like me ok. that does not make us christians.
ur msg clearly shows that u have an inherent bias towards christians. First of all. I till now have never spoken about any community in a that way.
Its coz of ppl like you that unity can't be achieved by hindu society.
pls check my profile photo tomorrrow. i will prove it once in for all.

The guy in yellow T-shirt with naamam is me.

 

[Mohan Parasuram]

Idol worship

Dear Sir,

It is said that the Supreme all pervading, manifest and unmanifest truth is one and the same. It is said the ultimate reality is that all pervading truth. But for the ordinary mind to comprehend the ultimate formless being is very difficult. But in order one is to taken stage by stage, first the form is presented which the mind can perceive. Graduly when one progress in the spiritual path, more realisation comes that it is the same manefest and unmanifest all pervading truth. One is progressed stage by stage to the ultimate goal.

Rgds,
Mohan

Buddy, do you know that Morthi Pooja and Deepak Pooja are the jewels given to us by Jainism?.

Now to those who say Hindus worship idols refer the following,

Worshiping any image is IDOLATRY.

Yes an Amrith Dhari will scoff off. I'm going to take references directly from Granth

ਜੋ ਇਹ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੈ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਏ ਫਲੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਆਧਿ ਬਯਾਧਿ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਸਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੮੫੯॥
जो इह कथा सुनै अरु गावै ॥ दूख पाप तिह निकटि न आवै ॥ बिसनु भगति की ए फलु होई ॥ आधि बयाधि छ्वै सकै न कोई ॥८५९॥
He, who will listen to this story and sing it, he will be free from the sufferings and sins. The reward of the devotion to Vishnu (and his incarnation Ram) that no ailment of any kind will touch him.


Regarding caste positions, I take references from the Granth directly

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰੋ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਸਾਜਾ ॥ ਦੇਸ ਦੇਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਤੇ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਦੰਡ ਸੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਹੁਤੀ ਸਾਸਨਾ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੮੩੭॥
बहु बिधि करो राज को साजा ॥ देस देस के जीते राजा ॥ साम दाम अरु दंड सु भेदा ॥ जिह बिधि हुती सासना बेदा ॥८३७॥
Performing his royal duties in many ways and practising Sama, Dama, Dand and Bhed and other methods of administration, Ram conquered other kings of many countries.

ਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਚਾਰ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬਰਨ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਰੈਂ ਬਿੱਪ੍ਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਬੈਸ ਲਖੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਹ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੮੩੮॥
बरन बरन अपुनी क्रित लाए ॥ चार चार ही बरन चलाए ॥ छत्री करैं बि्प्र की सेवा ॥ बैस लखै छ्त्री कह देवा ॥८३८॥
He caused every caste to do its duties and set in motion Varnashram Dharma; Kshatriyas began to serve the Brahmin and the Vaishyas considered the Kshatriyas as gods.

ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸਭਨ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਜਹ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤਹੀ ਵਹ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੈਸਕ ਹੁਤੀ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਨਾ ॥ ਨਿਕਸਾ ਤੈਸ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਰਸਨਾ ॥੮੩੯॥
सूद्र सभन की सेव कमावै ॥ जह कोई कहै तही वह धावै ॥ जैसक हुती बेद सासना ॥ निकसा तैस राम की रसना ॥८३९॥
The Shudras began to serve all and they went wherever they were sent; Ram always talked from his mouth about practicing administration according to Vedas.

ਰਾਵਣਾਦਿ ਰਣਿ ਹਾਂਕਿ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਸੇਵਕ ਗਣ ਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਲੰਕਾ ਦਈ ਟੰਕ ਜਨੁ ਦੀਨੋ ॥ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਰਾਜ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਕੀਨੋ ॥੮੪੦॥
रावणादि रणि हांकि संघारे ॥ भांति भांति सेवक गण तारे ॥ लंका दई टंक जनु दीनो ॥ इह बिधि राज जगत मै कीनो ॥८४०॥
Ram ruled by killing the tyrants like Ravana, by emancipating different devotees and attendants (ganas) and by collecting the taxes of Lanka.

Why the Gurus praise Ram avatar and bring in the caste system. Do you know that Guru Govind, when creating the Khalsa panth, ordered his Amrithdhaaris to be strict vegetarians (otherwise he told them that he would become a patit ie.e an apostate?)

 

[kunjuppu]

...NOW U SHUT UR MOUTH ONCE IN FOR ALL. NO NEED TO REPLY TO ME.

ramanujan, shiv,

you guys, can you not tone down your words please? this is precisely the type of language that we should avoid. let us remember, that we belong to the same crowd, and whatever differences we may have on some threads, we will get along like petrol and fire, in other threads.

please stick to the topic and stop calling names. it is not right. you both are unnecessarily giving extra work for the moderators.

thank you.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

@kunjuppu

sir pravin edited last night his post at 11.44
he told in his thread that "by all chance u r a missionery"
my anger is justified.

okey sir i edit those comments of mine.

 

[kunjuppu]

@kunjuppu

sir pravin edited last night his post at 11.44
he told in his thread that "by all chance u r a missionery"
my anger is justified.

okey sir i edit those comments of mine.

ram, my cautionary words also applies to shivkc. we should practice restraint when we are in disagreement. shoot the msg and not the messenger.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

@kunjuppu sir
ok sir i will maintain restraint in future. better ignore than spoil my mood.

 

[pranavmurali]

We must let our community disintegrate. We should be proud of our identity.
The politicans here started a caste war, we should show greater unity at this point of time..

 

[prepsuna]

Thanks.Spiritual religious matters are too deep to be understood completely by ordinary humans,and hence any comments always leads to mis-understandings amongst us. But its also painful now a days to see religion and spirituality declining from scriptural standards,propagated by a little read,little educated,unrealized persons in many garb,both male and female,in this site and so many.

I dont say i am realized,but definitely i take advise from realized souls and great saints,their Honors Sri Arunagirinathar,Sri RamanaMaharshi,Sri Chaitanya,Sri ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada,Sri Tulsidas,Sri Tukaram,Sri Purandaradasa,Sri Tyagaraja Etc.Neither do i claim to know all of the literature left by these Acharyas completely,but what i do know is, the basic truth expounded in all and by all of them.

We conditioned souls are having four defects and hence we cannot claim that we know everything.But taking advise and instructions from realized souls and repeating them like parrot is perfect.This is the way to perfect knowledge.

For eg: a child may not understand a table,but if it simply knows that the object is a table as told by its father,its knowledge is perfect.Over time its knowledge will mature and reveal everything about the table. Its in this light,i do blog,if i find something wrong as per the revealed knowledge.

Its not my intention to hurt or belittle anyone,neither is my language abusive,offensive or so.Kindly forgive me if in any way i have caused bad feelings for you.Truth,its said, is always bitter.

Now coming to the subject matter of " who is a Brahmin".
Ref: Bhagavad Gita-Chapter 4,verse 13,Chapter 18,verses 41,42,43,44,45;,Srimad Bhagavatham by ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada.

Lord Krishna created Varna system,which later degenerated into the present degraded caste system,based on birth.
Lord created this based on Guna,Karma,Karmani[work,occupation] and Nature[svabhava] ,but NOT on Birth.

Now people think that one is a brahmin,just because he or she is born into a brahmin family,or a chetty because being born in a chettiar family or naidu because in naidu family or so on.. Its this that which is causing problems. Many of the present day saints or so called spiritual leaders dont follow this or tell this truth to the people,because they themselves are ignorant.This is called as body consciousness or animal thinking.

For eg: A doctor.His children will not be doctors.They have to study,get degree and qualify to become doctors.Similary for all professions also.
Its the same with Caste or Varna also. A father is Qualified brahmin.His children need not be brahmins automatically.They have to qualify to become brahmins.Simply they cannot claim that they are brahmins,because of by birth.Very few people hardly understand this and this is causing the society to degenerate. Its a separate topic as to how to qualify to become a brahmin.

A brahmin father can have a doctor son-who is a shudra by qualification,a vaishya son who is in business,a kshatriya son in military or administration,a brahmana son who is in temple or studying all scriptures.This is real varna system. But all of these sons, now a days claim to be brahmins.A shudra-doctor by profession will claim he is a brahmin doctor and so on. This is the present day degradation.

Neither the varna or caste system apply to women.Women are always considered low class whether they are in brahmin,kshatriya,vaishya or shudra family. Reference:Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9 Verse 32 and SrimadBhagavatham.

So this animal consciousness or body consciousness is percolating into all peoples mind and causing so much of strife,peacelessness etc now a days.

Now how many people will take this truth? will they apply it in their life? will they accept it? will the so called community spiritual leaders correct and communicate this in right spirit? will society change on this facts?

Its anybodys guess.

We can have healthy discussion to educate ourselves and purify ourselves,as Krishna says in Chap 10,verse 9.


Regards
prepsuna

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Varna system was formulated for the benefit of the society. But in the present scenario it became impracticable. Now brahmins no longer practice varna dharma. They do different jobs apart from priesthood. Brahmins alone did not practice untouchability. It was practiced by other upper castes more vigoroursly. Even now. Casteism also is very strongly practised by BC communities in tamilnadu, Reddys and Naidus of AP, and many other non-SC castes in different states of India. But just because of the anti-brahmin movement of anna and EV Ramasamy NAICKER, tamilians and others were easily fooled in to believing that brahmins founded and practised untouchability. "If u r clean, I'm ready to hug you" is the brahmin way of living. You butcher a cow, don't clean yourselves and you want me to hug you. Brahminism is way of living more than just being born in to the caste. If you live like a brahmin, I'm ready to embrace you irrespective of your caste. Will karunanidhi gang prove that brahmins ever oppressed other backward communities of tamil nadu more than they themselves did among themselves..? The weakness of tamils is they are emotional. JUST A REQUEST TO THOSE BRAHMIN BASHERS ---"THINK - CAN A COMMUNITY WITH A POPULATION OF LESS THAN 5% IN MOST OF THE INDIAN STATES DOMINATE THE REST AND BRING IN THEIR OWN LAWS BY THEMSELVES" Do you think the other communities were fools to accept whatever the brahmins preached..? DEAR TAMILIANS SHOULD THINK BEFORE BRAHMIN BASHING...? Though a TELUGU FAMILY, KARUNANIDHI and his gang are cheating the emotional tamilians by trying to unite them against brahmins. That is their only weapon which would BLUNT SOON..THANKS.

 

[prepsuna]

Thanks.Spiritual religious matters are too deep to be understood completely by ordinary humans,and hence any comments always leads to mis-understandings amongst us. But its also painful now a days to see religion and spirituality declining from scriptural standards,propagated by a little read,little educated,unrealized persons in many garb,both male and female,in this site and so many.

I dont say i am realized,but definitely i take advise from realized souls and great saints,their Honors Sri Arunagirinathar,Sri RamanaMaharshi,Sri Chaitanya,Sri ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada,Sri Tulsidas,Sri Tukaram,Sri Purandaradasa,Sri Tyagaraja Etc.Neither do i claim to know all of the literature left by these Acharyas completely,but what i do know is, the basic truth expounded in all and by all of them.

We conditioned souls are having four defects and hence we cannot claim that we know everything.But taking advise and instructions from realized souls and repeating them like parrot is perfect.This is the way to perfect knowledge.

For eg: a child may not understand a table,but if it simply knows that the object is a table as told by its father,its knowledge is perfect.Over time its knowledge will mature and reveal everything about the table. Its in this light,i do blog,if i find something wrong as per the revealed knowledge.

Its not my intention to hurt or belittle anyone,neither is my language abusive,offensive or so.Kindly forgive me if in any way i have caused bad feelings for you.Truth,its said, is always bitter.

Now coming to the subject matter of " who is a Brahmin".
Ref: Bhagavad Gita-Chapter 4,verse 13,Chapter 18,verses 41,42,43,44,45;,Srimad Bhagavatham by ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada.

Lord Krishna created Varna system,which later degenerated into the present degraded caste system,based on birth.
Lord created this based on Guna,Karma,Karmani[work,occupation] and Nature[svabhava] ,but NOT on Birth.

Now people think that one is a brahmin,just because he or she is born into a brahmin family,or a chetty because being born in a chettiar family or naidu because in naidu family or so on.. Its this that which is causing problems. Many of the present day saints or so called spiritual leaders dont follow this or tell this truth to the people,because they themselves are ignorant.This is called as body consciousness or animal thinking.

For eg: A doctor.His children will not be doctors.They have to study,get degree and qualify to become doctors.Similary for all professions also.
Its the same with Caste or Varna also. A father is Qualified brahmin.His children need not be brahmins automatically.They have to qualify to become brahmins.Simply they cannot claim that they are brahmins,because of by birth.Very few people hardly understand this and this is causing the society to degenerate. Its a separate topic as to how to qualify to become a brahmin.

A brahmin father can have a doctor son-who is a shudra by qualification,a vaishya son who is in business,a kshatriya son in military or administration,a brahmana son who is in temple or studying all scriptures.This is real varna system. But all of these sons, now a days claim to be brahmins.A shudra-doctor by profession will claim he is a brahmin doctor and so on. This is the present day degradation.

Neither the varna or caste system apply to women.Women are always considered low class whether they are in brahmin,kshatriya,vaishya or shudra family. Reference:Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9 Verse 32 and SrimadBhagavatham.

So this animal consciousness or body consciousness is percolating into all peoples mind and causing so much of strife,peacelessness etc now a days.

Now how many people will take this truth? will they apply it in their life? will they accept it? will the so called community spiritual leaders correct and communicate this in right spirit? will society change on this facts?

Its anybodys guess.

We can have healthy discussion to educate ourselves and purify ourselves,as Krishna says in Chap 10,verse 9.

Thank you once again.

 

[ShivKC]

Varna system was formulated for the benefit of the society. But in the present scenario it became impracticable..

eager to know, how and why Varna system failed to deliver those benefits to the society in modern era.. If it was benefiting in past, it must be doing the same too.. Benefits were not denied by any society , come what the time line is. awaiting a detailed reply Sh.Parthasarathy to quency my intellectual quest

 

[kunjuppu]

eager to know, how and why Varna system failed to deliver those benefits to the society in modern era.. If it was benefiting in past, it must be doing the same too.. Benefits were not denied by any society , come what the time line is. awaiting a detailed reply Sh.Parthasarathy to quency my intellectual quest

shiv,

i am bound to think, that it ultimately comes to the question of marriage and progeny, as a defining factor for the calcification of the varna system to the modern caste based society. It is nice to think of varnas as a fluid society based on the occupations and one can easily move from one profession to another. But when it came to marriages and rituals, I am not sure the fluidity would have worked.

This would have become more rigidified, once the Brahmins stopped eating meat, probably under the influence of Jainism and Buddhism. So it may be wrong to say, that brahministic rituals as we practice it, is intact from the dawn of times. we have probably changes and perhaps even fiddled around some of the rules to create a religious hegemony.

Please remember even till the times of my grandparents, the Brahmins were looked up in society for their erudition. Periyar probably was questioning this exclusive preserve to knowledge and the resulting material benefits that came along with it, in an increasingly industrial and knowledge based India. Periyar was more exhorting the other castes to shed their sense of inferiority and to pursue knowledge and liberate their women, and the effective tool that he used, was demythifying the tambrams, and pricking sharply their sense of inflated egos. I think Periyar succeeded beyond perhaps his own dreams, for we are but a pale of our erstwhile standing in the tamil society. We did not have any moral standing to combat periyar’s campaign and even today, all we can say is that he spread hatred against us. Does that tell the whole story?

Anyone with a sense of fairness and vision, could have seen the logic and fairness in what periyar said. However the Brahmin leaders of the early 20th century, while probably listened to the stirrings of their conscience, to take effective steps like enabling temple entry for dalits, did not go much beyond, to consider themselves as part of the greater Hindu clan and lend their hand towards the upliftment of other castes in the fields of education and employment.

To be sure, this would have taken really enlightened and reformist leadership, and that could have only come out of mutts. No surprise that nothing happened from those quarters, and for which, we as a community are paying some price now in terms of ostracization in tamil nadu.

Today, anyone of us tambrams claim to be a Brahmin in any other manner other than through ancestrage, is probably lying to himself. Our future lies in treating other Hindu groups as our own, and particularly in the light of our declining numbers, what we see, is many of our youths simply abandoning our way of life. Would we consider an alcohol consuming meat eating son or daughter a Brahmin? Would we want a sil or dil with similar habits even though our child may be a vegetarian? Tough questions and I am afraid, there are no ‘one size fits for all’ answers.

But these are social phenomena, and we simply cannot emulate the proverbial ostrich and stick our head in the ground, pretending such things never exist and not talk about it. To me, talking and discussing, is therapeutic and in that process, come to terms with so many issues of today, unknown to our ancestors and many unfamiliar to ourselves. I am not saying that each one of us will face any or all of such issues, but in the course of life, we may (or may not) come to know of others facing such issues – and we will be able to provide some sensible succour or comfort, based on knowledge derived from such discussions in these threads of this forum.

The purpose is to educate ourselves and face the increasingly changing but not necessarily an uncertain future. The past in many instances, may be an albatross, best cast away for dealing with the realities of today. Many of our handed down values, do not sit comfortably with the world of today, and does not provide us with the wherewithal to deal with the world of tomorrow – the ideology of brahminical caste baste society as we understand it, I think, being on top of the list.

Thank you.

 

[prepsuna]

Dear Sir,
Nice reply.Please kindly read this one also.

Thanks.Spiritual religious matters are too deep to be understood completely by ordinary humans,and hence any comments always leads to mis-understandings amongst us. But its also painful now a days to see religion and spirituality declining from scriptural standards,propagated by a little read,little educated,unrealized persons in many garb,both male and female,in this site and so many.

I dont say i am realized,but definitely i take advise from realized souls and great saints,their Honors Sri Arunagirinathar,Sri RamanaMaharshi,Sri Chaitanya,Sri ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada,Sri Tulsidas,Sri Tukaram,Sri Purandaradasa,Sri Tyagaraja Etc.Neither do i claim to know all of the literature left by these Acharyas completely,but what i do know is, the basic truth expounded in all and by all of them.

We conditioned souls are having four defects and hence we cannot claim that we know everything.But taking advise and instructions from realized souls and repeating them like parrot is perfect.This is the way to perfect knowledge.

For eg: a child may not understand a table,but if it simply knows that the object is a table as told by its father,its knowledge is perfect.Over time its knowledge will mature and reveal everything about the table. Its in this light,i do blog,if i find something wrong as per the revealed knowledge.

Now coming to the subject matter of " who is a Brahmin".
Ref: Bhagavad Gita-Chapter 4,verse 13,Chapter 18,verses 41,42,43,44,45;,Srimad Bhagavatham by ACBhaktivedanta Swamy Prabhupada.

Lord Krishna created Varna system,which later degenerated into the present degraded caste system,based on birth.
Lord created this based on Guna,Karma,Karmani[work,occupation] and Nature[svabhava] ,but NOT on Birth.

Now people think that one is a brahmin,just because he or she is born into a brahmin family,or a chetty because being born in a chettiar family or naidu because in naidu family or so on.. Its this that which is causing problems. Many of the present day saints or so called spiritual leaders dont follow this or tell this truth to the people,because they themselves are ignorant.This is called as body consciousness or animal thinking.

For eg: A doctor.His children will not be doctors.They have to study,get degree and qualify to become doctors.Similary for all professions also.
Its the same with Caste or Varna also. A father is Qualified brahmin.His children need not be brahmins automatically.They have to qualify to become brahmins.Simply they cannot claim that they are brahmins,because of by birth.Very few people hardly understand this and this is causing the society to degenerate. Its a separate topic as to how to qualify to become a brahmin.

A brahmin father can have a doctor son-who is a shudra by qualification,a vaishya son who is in business,a kshatriya son in military or administration,a brahmana son who is in temple or studying all scriptures.This is real varna system. But all of these sons, now a days claim to be brahmins.A shudra-doctor by profession will claim he is a brahmin doctor and so on. This is the present day degradation.

Neither the varna or caste system apply to women.Women are always considered low class whether they are in brahmin,kshatriya,vaishya or shudra family. Reference:Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9 Verse 32 and SrimadBhagavatham.

So this animal consciousness or body consciousness is percolating into all peoples mind and causing so much of strife,peacelessness etc now a days.

Now how many people will take this truth? will they apply it in their life? will they accept it? will the so called community spiritual leaders correct and communicate this in right spirit? will society change on this facts?

Its anybodys guess.

We can have healthy discussion to educate ourselves and purify ourselves,as Krishna says in Chap 10,verse 9.

Thank you once again.

Regards
prepsuna

 

[Nara]

...But taking advise and instructions from realized souls and repeating them like parrot is perfect. (emphasis mine) This is the way to perfect knowledge.

Hi, is this the reason you are parroting the same response again and again in this thread? While this may benefit you in convincing yourself of what you want to believe as truth, it is getting tiresome to see the same thing repeated.

You talk of "truths" as though they are so just because some people whom you consider "great saints" said so. If this is the standard to determine what truth is, i.e. truth is what is uttered by people whom one considers "great saints", then, there will be no dearth of "truths", anything can be claimed to be the immutable truth. Take the case of Mohammad, being such a great saint for Muslims that peace is declared upon him at every mention of his name, and every last word he uttered is truth incarnate to them.

Let us forget all this parroting. Human evolution has endowed each of us with an organ called brain, which when applied critically can reveal a lot of wonderful stuff. No blind accepting is required. Sure, human knowledge is incomplete, and it is this incompleteness where peddlers of blind belief hide and thrive. As human knowledge expands, the space for blind belief shrinks. But, it is very unlikely that this space will shrink to zero. There will always be space from which gullible human mind can be manipulated.

Cheers!

p.s. Shri KRS, is the Advaitam thread closed for further discussion?

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Varna system and the benefits it gave when it was followed with sincerity

eager to know, how and why Varna system failed to deliver those benefits to the society in modern era.. If it was benefiting in past, it must be doing the same too.. Benefits were not denied by any society , come what the time line is. awaiting a detailed reply Sh.Parthasarathy to quency my intellectual quest

I'll attempt to quench the intellectual quest of Shri.ShivKC. Varna system was originally based on profession and not on birth. What we now have is a degraded system called caste. Varna system meticulously took care of all the needs of the society. It was based on professions(or occupations) and not on birth. This was prevalent even in other societies foreign to us. In those days, the society required specific tasks to be completed by people with specific skills. No body initially ordained these skills to be mastered by these societal groups or families. The system was restricted to villages and slowly developed and spread to larger centres.

Example: In a small village, let's say, there is a temple. It needs a priest who can recite mantra. There would be a family of priests who can also perform rituals and ceremonies to other families as well as at the temple. There would be a family of masons who can build houses for others. Similarly, carpenters, goldsmith, ironsmith etc. Specific needs were met by such groups.

No body forced the carpenter's son to be a carpenter. It so happened naturally as it was easier for him to continue to be carpenter( whatever his father knew he would have learnt easily) compared to shifting to some other profession. Similarly with other professions.

The system started degrading when varna was confused with caste. A person born in a family of masons was not allowed to study or do some other profession, like carpentry. So, somehow, each family started isolating themselves from the society and started seeing themselves as belonging to a different group which we now call caste. When, a carpenter meets a fellow carpenter from another village, he feels happy and starts interacting with him better since they have more things in common. This is natural even now. This is human psychology. This kind of segregation by choice lead to groups fighting with each other in issues that are not mutually agreeable to each other. Also Caste became a serious problem when "choice of one's profession" was not given but forced. When a carpenter tried to do any other job, he was mocked at by other carpenters and others in the society. That lead to the downfall of the varna system.

Again I would like to make it clear that Varna was not based on birth originally. It was based on profession of choice. Only when the society refused to accept it, it degraded to caste.

As for the specific benefits it gave to the society when it was followed with sincerity --
1) Varna system allocated and distributed specific tasks to specific groups.
2) If a mason refuses to build a house, then there must be another person ready to learn and build it. Till that happens, everybody has to wait. Meanwhile, the mason's family has to starve. Similarly, any other profession.

3) Each group is ordained to do specific tasks which others cannot do readily or suddenly.

This is a mutual agreement and understanding prevalent in the varna system to ensure harmony. " When scavengers are not there, even a brahmin has to do scavenging by himself just like how he cleans himself everyday. "


Power and authority in the varna system were not given like quotas are given today. They were earned. Nobody stopped a warrior from going to the battlefield. A King was not appointed on Quota. There was no reservation those days. A King earned a kingdom through his power and hardwork. Who stopped a priest from fighting with a king to earn a kingdom ..?

A priest must have decided on his own that he cannot fight since he was not trained to fight. He got used to doing pujas and learning vedas and he thougth it was safe to continue in the same profession. Same with other professoins. That's how varna became caste and started getting associated with birth.

Gita clearly says, no body can become brahmin by birth. It has to be earned by behavior. Each varna has its own dharmas. It can be followed by anybody. A brahmin can take a sword and ride a horse and become a kshatriya if he wants to follow kshatriya dharma. Then he has to fight battles and win. Similarly, a scavenger can learn vedas if he wants to. But he has to follow brahmana dharma. Can he..? is the question. If he can, then he becomes a brahmin, a true one.

In modern era, each of these groups including brahmins, failed to follow their respective dharmas. I'm not supporting any groups. But I can still argue that Brahmins are the worst sufferers since their dharma is the toughest to follow. So, the society collectively allowed the varna system to degrade and allowed its benefits to go down the drain.

PS: These are my humble opinions. They may be correct or wrong. I might not have quenched the intellectual quest of Shri. ShivKC. I don't argue whatever I said is truth. These are just my humble opinions. Take it if you feel they are correct. Don't take it to heart if any of my statements hurt anybody.

Manava Sevaye Madhava Seva.

JAI HIND...!! JAI HIND..! JAI HIND..!! BHARATH MATA KI JAI.!!