Malaysia Airlines..TVK

[tks]

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Dear RR ji,

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So technically all types of suffering or even happiness for that matter are "transient" hence we are advised to treat with Happiness and Sorrow alike.
Can Lord Krishna ever be wrong? Sukha Dukhe Same Krtva.

Dr Renu

It all depends on what 'treat' means in this 'advice'. In most instances that would be a meaningless and inapplicable advice in my view and people cannot apply or relate to.

This is no different than the book that advocates the power of positive thinking (which amounts to discounting a negative situation)

If the advice to some one who is suffering emotionally (like those passengers who are at a loss as to the whereabouts of their loved ones in this flight) to not take that feeling seriously because it will pass over time and that Lord Krishna says 'your feelings are like those of happiness' they will not be able to relate to that.

In fact we do not really control our spontaneous feelings that arise in our mind

To negate those feelings is to discount the existence of sadness which is not possible even in a story like Ramayana for Sri Rama,

I know this quote you mentioned is used by many the way you did. I do not agree with the context in which it is cited.

Could it be really all that simplistic? If that is the case even as the story of Mahabharatha is presented, all Lord Krishna would have to say to Arjuna is to treat Sukha and Dukha the same, your sadness will pass, just use my words as that of Bhagavan and fight. There will be no need for 700 verses in Gita then.

It is true that our body and mind will find a way to adopt. Even in sexual slaver situation, the victims tend to concoct some image of the violence happening to someone else and that is there coping mechanism. So I can understand your point about how we find ways to deal with sad situations and that over time the intensity of sadness decreases and even passes (in that sense they are transient but the time frame for the transiency may be years for some).

Regardless the so called advice as interpreted cannot be helpful.

It is not if Sri Krishna is wrong - instead it is the interpretation and applicability that is wrong in my view.

 

[tbs]

hi

see the latest news from malaysian govt.....somewhere something wrong....


?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ??????????? ???? ??????? ??????????:: ??????? - Dinamani - Tamil Daily News

 

[renuka]

Dr Renu

It all depends on what 'treat' means in this 'advice'. In most instances that would be a meaningless and inapplicable advice in my view and people cannot apply or relate to.

This is no different than the book that advocates the power of positive thinking (which amounts to discounting a negative situation)

If the advice to some one who is suffering emotionally (like those passengers who are at a loss as to the whereabouts of their loved ones in this flight) to not take that feeling seriously because it will pass over time and that Lord Krishna says 'your feelings are like those of happiness' they will not be able to relate to that.

In fact we do not really control our spontaneous feelings that arise in our mind

To negate those feelings is to discount the existence of sadness which is not possible even in a story like Ramayana for Sri Rama,

I know this quote you mentioned is used by many the way you did. I do not agree with the context in which it is cited.

Could it be really all that simplistic? If that is the case even as the story of Mahabharatha is presented, all Lord Krishna would have to say to Arjuna is to treat Sukha and Dukha the same, your sadness will pass, just use my words as that of Bhagavan and fight. There will be no need for 700 verses in Gita then.

It is true that our body and mind will find a way to adopt. Even in sexual slaver situation, the victims tend to concoct some image of the violence happening to someone else and that is there coping mechanism. So I can understand your point about how we find ways to deal with sad situations and that over time the intensity of sadness decreases and even passes (in that sense they are transient but the time frame for the transiency may be years for some).

Regardless the so called advice as interpreted cannot be helpful.

It is not if Sri Krishna is wrong - instead it is the interpretation and applicability that is wrong in my view.

Dear TKS ji,

Thank you for your reply.I do agree with what your wrote but let me add a few salient points with regards to this missing airplane incident.

Ok it was extremely stressful here..initially my eyes had tears reading the news everyday.

As I said that I stopped praying to an external God some time back and now I have to rely on my own inner self..handling this sort of situations is a double blow.

At that time you realize that praying to a external God is a stress reliever..it makes you forget your troubles but it might not actually deliver anything the way we want it to be.

Then after 1 week of going thru stress reading all the news then the next stage of emotions comes in..the feeling of helplessness.

The fact that humans are helpless in the real sense..no matter who you are or what you are when tragedy strikes it strikes with no exceptions.

After the helplessness feeling ..then you are directionless.

Your mind wants to tune off and not even read the news..then you ask yourself.."are you tuning off cos none of your loved ones are on that plane? Would you tune off if it was a loved on that plane?"

Then next step is..we realize that we always try to "personalize" any situation..we try to imagine that what if it was our loved ones to try to connect emotionally.

So to a great extent without personalizing the situation we might not know the gravity of the situation.

Why?? Cos we humans need to identify all feelings with SELF..without which we can never feel anything.

Word of Sage Yajnavalkya come ringing in my mind where he said "Its not for the sake of husband/wife that husband/wife is loved but its for the sake of SELF"

Ok next step is guilt!

The guilt that "I am alive and someone could be dead?"

Next step is "why am I so affected??is it becos it happened in my country?"

Next step is "people die daily..and you do not shed a tear..so why are you so affected now"

So you see TKS ji..finally with all these questions running thru my mind..I realize that I cant afford to grieve or cant afford to be over excited for anything.

Being in the middle path of emotions neither depressed or euphoric makes the mind the most steady to actually care for anyone or face a situation.

Hence I feel Sukha Dukhe Same Krtva is the end point of the human emotions.

We go through all stages of emotions and finally choose to be equipoised not becos we do not care but becos we care so much that we do not want to be dysfunctional plagued with depression or euphoria...we want to be functional to keep on caring.

In this whole episode I totally salute the service of the Armed personnel in the Search and Rescue effort.

If anyone actually wants to pray its better to pray to the Armed Personnel the actual Living Gods!

 

[renuka]

Could This Be the Breakthrough in Search for Missing Malaysia Plane the World?s Been Waiting For? | TheBlaze.com

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Thank you for your reply.I do agree with what your wrote but let me add a few salient points with regards to this missing airplane incident.

Ok it was extremely stressful here..initially my eyes had tears reading the news everyday.

As I said that I stopped praying to an external God some time back and now I have to rely on my own inner self..handling this sort of situations is a double blow.

At that time you realize that praying to a external God is a stress reliever..it makes you forget your troubles but it might not actually deliver anything the way we want it to be.

Then after 1 week of going thru stress reading all the news then the next stage of emotions comes in..the feeling of helplessness.

The fact that humans are helpless in the real sense..no matter who you are or what you are when tragedy strikes it strikes with no exceptions.

After the helplessness feeling ..then you are directionless.

Your mind wants to tune off and not even read the news..then you ask yourself.."are you tuning off cos none of your loved ones are on that plane? Would you tune off if it was a loved on that plane?"

Then next step is..we realize that we always try to "personalize" any situation..we try to imagine that what if it was our loved ones to try to connect emotionally.

So to a great extent without personalizing the situation we might not know the gravity of the situation.

Why?? Cos we humans need to identify all feelings with SELF..without which we can never feel anything.

Word of Sage Yajnavalkya come ringing in my mind where he said "Its not for the sake of husband/wife that husband/wife is loved but its for the sake of SELF"

Ok next step is guilt!

The guilt that "I am alive and someone could be dead?"

Next step is "why am I so affected??is it becos it happened in my country?"

Next step is "people die daily..and you do not shed a tear..so why are you so affected now"

So you see TKS ji..finally with all these questions running thru my mind..I realize that I cant afford to grieve or cant afford to be over excited for anything.

Being in the middle path of emotions neither depressed or euphoric makes the mind the most steady to actually care for anyone or face a situation.

Hence I feel Sukha Dukhe Same Krtva is the end point of the human emotions.

We go through all stages of emotions and finally choose to be equipoised not becos we do not care but becos we care so much that we do not want to be dysfunctional plagued with depression or euphoria...we want to be functional to keep on caring.

In this whole episode I totally salute the service of the Armed personnel in the Search and Rescue effort.

If anyone actually wants to pray its better to pray to the Armed Personnel the actual Living Gods!

Dr Renu

If any of us are closer to a problem then as human beings we are subjected more emotions. Also flight related tragedies are something more affluent of us (with experience in flying in commercial Airlines) can relate to and empathize with.

If telling ourselves not to react or get over focused on a tragedy- however major it may be appear to us - is defined in your mind as following the middle path then there is no need for any scripture to be cited.

The experience for most people is that people cannot choose how they should feel - hence following any path (middle or otherwise) with respect to a rising emotion is not in our control.

What is in our control is our action to the rising emotion. For example we can choose not to read newspapers or watch TV for a long periods of time
Even Sri Vivekananda (from your own quotes) expressed sadness (and even cried?)..

The best coping mechanism in my limited knowledge is to undertake meditation - even if it means uttering the name of an 'external God'.
Seeking refuge to someone - even if it is imaginary in our thinking part of the brain - has value.

Scriptures need not come into the picture. Often they are misquoted and 'applied' .

In B. Gita the scene starts with Arjuna having a panic attack. The teachings can help gain understanding like it is supposed to have happened for Arjuna , but that kind of understanding cannot take place for most of us at the time of an issue like in Gita.

If one has been learning for years and are still affected then there are two possibilities. The teaching and the model assumed is incorrect or the interpretation (how the scripture was taught or self taught from books etc) is incorrect. More often than not the later is the issue.

Having said this let us hope for the best outcome by those doing the searches.

 

[vgane]

We should get some news about the aircraft today..

US vessel Poseidon at the search site: An Australian aircraft is now at the scene, and a United States Poseidon vessel is also attending the operation. Two other aircraft, including one from New Zealand, are flying to the location, and a navy vessel is also en-route. Australia has received a number of offers of assistance from other nations to assist in the search operation, reports the Guardian.
11:05 79-foot 'debris' may be tail section of MH370: David Gallo, who co-led the search for Air France Flight 447 which crashed in 2009, tells CNN that the 79-foot object in the Indian Ocean is "maybe it's the tail section".

The announcement raises hopes of finding parts of the plane after a huge search that is now in its 13th day.

Previous reports of debris found in the sea have not turned out to be related to the passenger jet, which vanished over Southeast Asia earlier this month.

Australian search teams have been at the forefront of the hunt for the missing plane in the remote southern Indian Ocean.


11:00 US Navy P-8 spotter reports "significant radar returns" coming from site where possible MH370 objects spotted

 

[renuka]

The best coping mechanism in my limited knowledge is to undertake meditation - even if it means uttering the name of an 'external God'.
Seeking refuge to someone - even if it is imaginary in our thinking part of the brain - has value.

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Dear TKS ji,

If you ask me I feel meditation is technically not possible.
I dont really think the human mind can actually be still.

The Subconscious mind and Autonomic Nervous Sytem can never be shut down in a living person.

Even in deepest so called Samadhi the heart still beats but may be at a lower rate and respiration still goes on and the subconscious mind is still active.

So to be honest I feel most people are not really meditating but just sitting still and thinking of something in their mind.

Yes..seeking an imaginary refuge helps to a certain extent but as we age and mature we surely wont want to fool ourselves anymore.

Its like still thinking that Santa Claus exists!

So the best is to face our fears and emotions...there is nothing wrong in feeling fear and anxiety..and let that flow through our body and eventually we adapt as in to survive only to feel emotions and anxiety again for another situation..that is just being human.

This helps build character to a certain extent and make us stronger.Meditation,prayer etc are just stress relievers for our own selves mainly and they do not really help the outcome of any tragedy in any way.

 

[krish44]

according to australia debris 2 objects located 2500 km off perth in sub indian ocean ,could be of MH370

 

[renuka]

according to australia debris 2 objects located 2500 km off perth in sub indian ocean ,could be of MH370

Dear Krish ji,

If this is found to be true that means what I suspected that the system was hacked and false satellite signals were given to send everyone on a wild goose chase searching in opposite direction to where the plane actually could have crashed.

So plane could have flown east and everyone was searching on the west thinking that the plane turned back and flew west.

We just have to wait and see.

I was seeing a TV programme today where army personnel were learning how to detonate bombs and a mock bomb showing 5 minutes before it explodes exploded after 2 mins and the personnel were wondering why?

then their chief said that is part of the training to NEVER trust what you see...5 mins might actually be not 5 minutes in the mind of the enemy.

So that means we can never trust anything that meets the eye..including satellite signals cos someone could be sending fake signals to create chaos and confusion.

 

[Vaagmi]

Posts #201,203,205 and 207:

Elders interpret the word "Anandam" in upanishads where AtmA is said to be Anandamayam to mean "to be always helpful to the self" The translation is not accurate and so I give the equivalent: "தனக்கு எப்போதும் அனுகூலமாகவே இருத்தல்". So they say the Anandam there does not refer to happiness but to be this. May be what they say is true. Just some loud thinking.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

If you ask me I feel meditation is technically not possible.
I dont really think the human mind can actually be still.

The Subconscious mind and Autonomic Nervous Sytem can never be shut down in a living person.

Even in deepest so called Samadhi the heart still beats but may be at a lower rate and respiration still goes on and the subconscious mind is still active.

So to be honest I feel most people are not really meditating but just sitting still and thinking of something in their mind.

Yes..seeking an imaginary refuge helps to a certain extent but as we age and mature we surely wont want to fool ourselves anymore.

Its like still thinking that Santa Claus exists!

So the best is to face our fears and emotions...there is nothing wrong in feeling fear and anxiety..and let that flow through our body and eventually we adapt as in to survive only to feel emotions and anxiety again for another situation..that is just being human.

This helps build character to a certain extent and make us stronger.Meditation,prayer etc are just stress relievers for our own selves mainly and they do not really help the outcome of any tragedy in any way.

Dr Renu

In my view, seemingly you are more affected by this tragedy than many others purely based on your recent posts on this topic.


Meditation is not a crutch anymore than taking a medication for a physical ailment that you prescribe to your patients.

I think use of words like Samadhi etc are totally irrelevant and inapplicable to what I was saying. They tend to confuse simple situations because they are rarely if ever understood and communicated.

Meditation is not about shutting down anything ...That is a wrong notion.

What most people may be doing under the name of meditation can be at best our guess but again how does that matter? Why bother about what others may or may not be doing? Speculation has no value for any of us.

All we know is that through scientific experiments meditation of any kind is helpful to improving our memory and achieve better clarity in thinking.

I have previously provided many references to such studies and recommendations in other threads I think.

Only well researched topics ever make into publications like Scientific American. The authors are usually experts having gained that status by their demonstrated work of major significance.

Here is a quote from Scientific American journal - October 2013 edition:

The reference is below:
How Does Meditation Change the Brain? - Scientific American

"How Does Meditation Change the Brain? Meditation can sharpen attention, strengthen memory and improve other mental abilities.Scientific American editor Ferris Jabr examines the changes in brain structure behind some of these benefits."

Life is not as complex as it appears. There is nothing wrong with feeling any of the human emotions. The issue is that one can lose perspective that can negatively affect us. It is for these reasons we suggest good habits.

Daily meditation could be one such habit.

You can ask someone to shower daily, be clean and have enough physical activity to feel better. These suggestions are not some crutch and is not recommended to avoid any human feeling. It is to feel better, make better life decisions and to continue to put things in perspective in the face of adversity.

So given the preponderance of scientific evidence, a concrete suggestion for those that are suffering due to this or other strategies is to undertake regular practice of meditation. It can help them to not just feel better but allow them to move on and make better life decisions.

There is no need to bring scriptures or quotes (which are often incorrectly understood anyway and tend to confuse more than help) when a simple explanation will suffice and can directly help.

 

[renuka]

There is no need to bring scriptures or quotes (which are often incorrectly understood anyway and tend to confuse more than help) when a simple explanation will suffice and can directly help.

Dear TKS ji,

I beg to differ from your opinion.

From what I can understand you actually tend to dissociate day to day life with scriptures..you keep saying this is not applicable and that is not applicable and this surprises me.

Yes I admit that I am affected by this incident....cos it makes us ponder about life and death etc.

In fact another doctor friend of mine was discussing with me yesterday that even he feels very affected and he realized that all those who claim to be praying for this plane are actually not that affected becos they just do routine prayer and then forget about it!

Its just that routine prayer is mechanical that as if "I have done my job and leave the rest to God"

So you will actually find that those who claim to be praying not actually affected by it cos technically they have tuned off by passing the buck to God.

At this times I feel scriptures make lots of sense..for me I always felt that we can not actually read the Bhagavad Geeta..it has to unfold to us..each stanza has a unique way of unfolding to us for each event in our life.

For me I do not dissociate scriptures from my day to day life...the purpose of scriptures is to incorporate its essence in our daily life which sadly many of us rarely want to do...cos when we do so we realize that sometime the truth is actually a very bitter pill to swallow and not everyone wants to taste it.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

I beg to differ from your opinion.

From what I can understand you actually tend to dissociate day to day life with scriptures..you keep saying this is not applicable and that is not applicable and this surprises me.

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.
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So you will actually find that those who claim to be praying not actually affected by it cos technically they have tuned off by passing the buck to God.

At this times I feel scriptures make lots of sense..for me I always felt that we can not actually read the Bhagavad Geeta..it has to unfold to us..each stanza has a unique way of unfolding to us for each event in our life.

For me I do not dissociate scriptures from my day to day life...the purpose of scriptures is to incorporate its essence in our daily life which sadly many of us rarely want to do...cos when we do so we realize that sometime the truth is actually a very bitter pill to swallow and not everyone wants to taste it.

Dr Renu

What I said had a conditional part - when there is a simple explanation then there is no need to bring any scriptures ..I know you differ in your view . I understood that.

The other part I bolded in your quote do not make any sense. I do not even know 'what passing the buck to a God' means. Who are you and I to pass any buck if the definition of God is almighty and cause of everything there is..

I have no idea what bitter pills there are other than what Doctor may prescribe
The truth is not bitter, it is only bitter if we have preconceived notions that gets challenged. In that case all it points to is that the original understanding is wrong

Regards

 

[renuka]

I have no idea what bitter pills there are other than what Doctor may prescribe
The truth is not bitter, it is only bitter if we have preconceived notions that gets challenged. In that case all it points to is that the original understanding is wrong

Regards

Dear TKS ji,

Exactly! Preconceived notions that gets challenged! That is the bitter truth...but it does taste sweet when we know what its all about!LOL


From what I have been reading and understanding that actually Sanathana Dharma is not about prayer at all.

Its all about "Being" and nothing more.


So the next question is "why not even one Guru ever advocated speaking the Truth for a change?..why did everyone sugar coats their words and keep telling prayer prayer blah blah blah..I have a feeling there ain't no business like prayer business..may be that's why"


Note: for those who might feel that the word Sanathana Dharma does not exists in any religious text..I would like to state that it actually exists in the Geeta Chapter 14 stanza 27 but with the word śāśvatasya ca dharmasya which carries the same meaning as Sanathana Dharma.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Exactly! Preconceived notions that gets challenged! That is the bitter truth...but it does taste sweet when we know what its all about!LOL


From what I have been reading and understanding that actually Sanathana Dharma is not about prayer at all.

Its all about "Being" and nothing more.


So the next question is "why not even one Guru ever advocated speaking the Truth for a change?..why did everyone sugar coats their words and keep telling prayer prayer blah blah blah..I have a feeling there ain't no business like prayer business..may be that's why"


Note: for those who might feel that the word Sanathana Dharma does not exists in any religious text..I would like to state that it actually exists in the Geeta Chapter 14 stanza 27 but with the word śāśvatasya ca dharmasya which carries the same meaning as Sanathana Dharma.

Dharma was never about Prayer - I am not sure where you got that idea in the first place. So it will be a bitter pill.

But that does not mean Prayer does not have a value when it is understood for what it is.
There were atheists (who never 'prayed' to any God in human image) in vedic times but could still support essence of teaching in Vedas.

The scriptures like Gita most often address areas that are not obvious and when simple & rational explanation exist, it never contradicts rational explanations.
It is often scriptures that are used as crutches and used one to not face the reality - that was my larger point. Most are basically misquotes and inapplicable

 

[renuka]

Dharma was never about Prayer - I am not sure where you got that idea in the first place. So it will be a bitter pill.

But that does not mean Prayer does not have a value when it is understood for what it is.
There were atheists (who never 'prayed' to any God in human image) in vedic times but could still support essence of teaching in Vedas.

The scriptures like Gita most often address areas that are not obvious and when simple & rational explanation exist, it never contradicts rational explanations.
It is often scriptures that are used as crutches and used one to not face the reality - that was my larger point. Most are basically misquotes and inapplicable

I am well aware the Dharma was never about prayer but yet prayer is advocated for almost everything and anything...that is my point.

Ok now you tell me..

1)Why should anyone pray?

2)Does it really make a difference in anything?

3)Isn't it obvious that the Law of Cause and effect is in action and all these while if we actually thought prayers worked its becos we had the Karmic balance that made it seem that the prayers were 'answered'?..now this is the Truth I am talking about that there are NO MIRACLES and what seemed like a Miracle was actually what was meant to be.

Now if only this is told to people up front that would make anyone and everyone stronger to face lifes challenges instead of hoping for the non existent. Life is actually very technical.God is a logician and not a magician!

I was just reading an article where a doctor noted that blood adrenaline levels are higher in patients who have a group of unknown people or a host of relatives praying for their recovery...cos it made the patient feel anxious that he/she should recover to prove that their are not a sinner to die and also they were anxious that their condition must be so bad that so many people needed to pray for them to recover.

So this group prayer does have negative effects too.

 

[tks]

I am well aware the Dharma was never about prayer but yet prayer is advocated for almost everything and anything...that is my point.

Ok now you tell me..

1)Why should anyone pray?

2)Does it really make a difference in anything?

3)Isn't it obvious that the Law of Cause and effect is in action and all these while if we actually thought prayers worked its becos we had the Karmic balance that made it seem that the prayers were 'answered'?..now this is the Truth I am talking about that there are NO MIRACLES and what seemed like a Miracle was actually what was meant to be.

Now if only this is told to people up front that would make anyone and everyone stronger to face lifes challenges instead of hoping for the non existent. Life is actually very technical.God is a logician and not a magician!

I was just reading an article where a doctor noted that blood adrenaline levels are higher in patients who have a group of unknown people or a host of relatives praying for their recovery...cos it made the patient feel anxious that he/she should recover to prove that their are not a sinner to die and also they were anxious that their condition must be so bad that so many people needed to pray for them to recover.

So this group prayer does have negative effects too.

Dr Renu

First, I do not know who is advocating Prayer and I do not know why I should listen to them. So this is not an issue from my perspective.


I am not sure what your understanding of prayer is - you can clarify that so I can share my understanding better to your questions.
Also what are chapters 11 and 12 of B.Gita about in your understanding - Was Arjuna praying?

Responses to your questions based on my assumptions about what you may be asking.

1. There are no 'should in' what I have said so far. All I say is that if someone prays and they are not causing harm to others let us respect that person and not knock that activity. If you or I do not want to pray that is fine. Let those who want to go on - they may have different understanding of the word prayer.

2. Question at a deeper level is meaningless. We can only control our action and not the results which are based on many factors. In a more simplistic version of the question the simple answer is that prayer allows one to face the issue at hand by getting one to accept the reality of the situation with their 'faith' in a larger force being taken to be on their side. Being stuck is detrimental to seeing all our available responses to a given situation. If one is under a grave threat of any kind they have to keep their mental faculty intact to deal with the situation. A prayer helps to calm the mind and then they can take their chance leaving the results to the almighty.

3. The law of Karma is but a a model and is subject to a set of beliefs. Within the context of this model no one can say what action (and when done ) caused what results now. Prayer is but another mental action (Karma) and therefore comes within the domain of Karma model for consequences. We have no idea when and how the consequence of prayer will unfold in this model. So karma model cannot be used to prove or refute anything about the action of prayer. So why even bring Karma discussion up in this context?

There are miracles - but not one that goes against nature. The simple act of typing a letter is a miracle where billions of messages are coordinated to make an event happen. That is a miracle.

If someone shows something that challenges of law of nature like creating objects out of nothing it is most likely an illusion based on entertaining people. If the Ganesha was drinking milk then it was a miracle until the capillary action (due to surface tension) was used to explain what was happening in reported cases.

 

[renuka]

My answers in blue..Dear TKS ji,

Dr Renu

First, I do not know who is advocating Prayer and I do not know why I should listen to them. So this is not an issue from my perspective.


I am not sure what your understanding of prayer is - you can clarify that so I can share my understanding better to your questions.
Also what are chapters 11 and 12 of B.Gita about in your understanding - Was Arjuna praying?

In my opinion Arjuna was not facing his fears..he was trying to escape..classic fear induced anxiety becos of extreme attachment to kith and kin.A man who could slay others could not slay his own blood.So Krishna dragged him back to fight and giving Arjuna a Universal Outlook to life and its sequence of events to be faced with a equipoised mind.

Responses to your questions based on my assumptions about what you may be asking.

1. There are no 'should in' what I have said so far. All I say is that if someone prays and they are not causing harm to others let us respect that person and not knock that activity. If you or I do not want to pray that is fine. Let those who want to go on - they may have different understanding of the word prayer.

Agreed..I am not stopping anyone from praying.I am not being the Anti Christ.I am just questioning the need for prayer.

2. Question at a deeper level is meaningless. We can only control our action and not the results which are based on many factors. In a more simplistic version of the question the simple answer is that prayer allows one to face the issue at hand by getting one to accept the reality of the situation with their 'faith' in a larger force being taken to be on their side. Being stuck is detrimental to seeing all our available responses to a given situation. If one is under a grave threat of any kind they have to keep their mental faculty intact to deal with the situation. A prayer helps to calm the mind and then they can take their chance leaving the results to the almighty.

Again..agreed..yes it helps calm the mind..I have done this and been thru this before but now I feel that one can calm the mind by facing the fears too without the need to hold on to an external imaginary figure.Its not easy..the anxiety build up can be hard to handle but its still possible..done this too and so far so good.

3. The law of Karma is but a a model and is subject to a set of beliefs. Within the context of this model no one can say what action (and when done ) caused what results now. Prayer is but another mental action (Karma) and therefore comes within the domain of Karma model for consequences. We have no idea when and how the consequence of prayer will unfold in this model. So karma model cannot be used to prove or refute anything about the action of prayer. So why even bring Karma discussion up in this context?

I prefer to call it Law of Cause and Effect from now on..cos that sounds more technical.(even though I used the word Karmic balance in my earlier post)
When we use words like Karma which has no exact English equivalent than it becomes all Jargon and people start describing it the way they think it might be...I too could be guilty for that.

Since its almost impossible to understand Karma..I prefer to think one line of "For every action there is a reaction"

There are miracles - but not one that goes against nature. The simple act of typing a letter is a miracle where billions of messages are coordinated to make an event happen. That is a miracle.

There are no miracles..only when we do not understand how something happened we call it a miracle.I still stick to the believe that the Universal Consciousness is a Master Logician.
Humans weaved magic into religion to make it palatable and marketable.

If someone shows something that challenges of law of nature like creating objects out of nothing it is most likely an illusion based on entertaining people. If the Ganesha was drinking milk then it was a miracle until the capillary action (due to surface tension) was used to explain what was happening in reported cases.

I never disbelieve anything right away. "Ganesha" could have drunk milk for all I know.The Universal Consciousness takes the shape of what the mind of the seeker wants.The Mind sees what it desires.

 

[tks]

My answers in blue..Dear TKS ji,

1. Not sure what you mean by 'face' any emotion like fear or for that matter any emotion. This is another version of 'let us not pass the buck to God' ... We do not have any control over emotions - only over our actions. Facing fear means doing what for Arjuna or for any of us? What actions should he have done in the story differently if he had 'faced his fears' like a 'man'? This line of reasoning cannot stand the test of further scrutiny in my view. In any case in the context of prayer which was the original discussion- Chapter 12 is all about so called Bhakthi ! How is prayer different from Bhakthi?


2. If law of cause and effect is acting all the time why could not there be a an action for a cause called prayer which is a mental action? The fact that we can never know neither confirms nor deny the value of prayer - hence even this law itself need not be brought into discussion around value of prayer.

3. What anyone believes is their business - it is not possible to have debate about beliefs.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

The exchange of views between two knowledgeable members of the Forum reminds me of a Tamil Scholar -'SUGI Sivam'. In one of his lectures(which I heard in a Tamil TV Channel a few years back) he narrated how
good things do happen even in the midst of worst calamities.
He was traveling in a Train which was involved in a major accident in which many passengers died.In the midst of that tragedy,he could witness the best human behavior among the people who came for rescue and relief.

 

[renuka]

1. Not sure what you mean by 'face' any emotion like fear or for that matter any emotion. This is another version of 'let us not pass the buck to God' ... We do not have any control over emotions - only over our actions. Facing fear means doing what for Arjuna or for any of us? What actions should he have done in the story differently if he had 'faced his fears' like a 'man'? This line of reasoning cannot stand the test of further scrutiny in my view. In any case in the context of prayer which was the original discussion- Chapter 12 is all about so called Bhakthi ! How is prayer different from Bhakthi?


2. If law of cause and effect is acting all the time why could not there be a an action for a cause called prayer which is a mental action? The fact that we can never know neither confirms nor deny the value of prayer - hence even this law itself need not be brought into discussion around value of prayer.

3. What anyone believes is their business - it is not possible to have debate about beliefs.

Dear TKS ji,

Yesterday another friend of mine..in fact my childhood friend also a doctor called me up to discuss about the airplane.He was feeling very worried and said he feels that life is like a gloomy cloud these days.

He is a staunch Catholic and he said he feels he has lost faith in God after this episode and wondering if there is actually a God at all.

I told him..not to lose faith ever.

Faith and Hope is all we humans have but the problem is we humans have been "misguided" to a certain extent that an external God will run to our rescue in need etc.

I explained to him the law of cause and effect and also told him that Universal Consciousness a.k.a God is actually a silent witness and its our actions that decide our life and its outcome.

Prayers that seem to be "answered" are becos of our own entitlement etc.


So I told him not to lose faith in God but no harm losing faith in religion cos religion seldom tells us the Truth.

He finally agreed with what I said and decided to focus on right actions more than actual praying.

 

[P.J.]

Missing jet WAS carrying highly flammable lithium batteries:

Missing jet WAS carrying highly flammable lithium batteries:



When asked days ago, he said it was carrying 'tonnes of mangosteens'
Lithium-ion batteries have caused 140 mid-air incidents in last 20 years
The devices are commonly used in mobile phones and laptops
Classed as dangerous by The International Civil Aviation Organisation

Reignites theory that missing flight may have crashed after on-board fire
Aviation expert said it re-affirm belief that flames started in cargo hold

One cargo plane crashed in 2010 after attempting an emergency landing
Safety report said battery caught fire and filled the flight deck with smoke

​

Malaysian Airlines today confirmed that flight MH370 had been carrying highly flammable lithium-ion batteries in its cargo hold, re-igniting speculation that a fire may have caused its disappearance.


The admission by CEO Ahmad Jauhari comes four days after he denied the aircraft was carrying any dangerous items and nearly two weeks after the plane went missing.

He said the authorities were investigating the cargo, but did not regard the batteries as hazardous - despite the law dictating they are classed as such - because they were packaged according to safety regulations.

The revelation has thrown the spotlight back on the theory that the Boeing 777 may have been overcome by a fire, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious after inhaling toxic fumes.


Lithium-ion batteries - which are used in mobile phones and laptops - have been responsible for a number of fires on planes and have even brought aircraft down in recent years.

MH370 WAS carrying highly flammable lithium batteries admits CEO of Malaysian Airlines | Mail Online
​

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Yesterday another friend of mine..in fact my childhood friend also a doctor called me up to discuss about the airplane.He was feeling very worried and said he feels that life is like a gloomy cloud these days.

He is a staunch Catholic and he said he feels he has lost faith in God after this episode and wondering if there is actually a God at all.

I told him..not to lose faith ever.

Faith and Hope is all we humans have but the problem is we humans have been "misguided" to a certain extent that an external God will run to our rescue in need etc.

I explained to him the law of cause and effect and also told him that Universal Consciousness a.k.a God is actually a silent witness and its our actions that decide our life and its outcome.

Prayers that seem to be "answered" are becos of our own entitlement etc.


So I told him not to lose faith in God but no harm losing faith in religion cos religion seldom tells us the Truth.

He finally agreed with what I said and decided to focus on right actions more than actual praying.

Dr Renu

Sharing my view!

If your friend feels he is losing faith in God - it may point to the fact that his belief is being challenged by events as he perceives them. There are two options for him - one is to examine how his faith (which is usually suspension of logic) is not serving him well and continue his queries to a more satisfactory conclusion even if it means giving up his current notion of 'God'.

The other option is to hold onto his faith in God .

I would have recommended the first option.

"God is actually a silent witness and its our actions that decide our life and its outcome" - This is also a belief/faith in my understanding and *more aligned* with Christian theology. There are issues in my mind with these statements and let me share them here.

1. Our actions do not decide our life and its outcome. Our actions coupled with many hidden variables determines the outcome. After all the passengers of this flight made a choice to take this flight and wanted to reach their destination. Most passengers did not plan or dream for this outcome (whatever that has happened).

2. If God is a silent witness and is a universal consciousness then that God must know what has happened in the past , what is happening in the present and what is going to happen in the future by any of us and our actions. Then the God knew what will happen to this flight even before it took off.

3. If God does not know then he or she cannot be universal consciousness.

4. If he or she or it already knows then why subject the beings to consequences. It would mean that the hijackers if they existed could not help themselves. It would mean the one doing 'good' to others cannot help themselves from doing so. (Of course the Christian theology adds eternal damnation in Hell or forever wonderful life in heaven for these beings whose fate is predetermined and known to God!). That would make this God ludicrous and silent observing what is already predetermined

My point is that this line of reasoning obviously leads to all kinds of contradictions in the statements. So it cannot be right.

Regards

PS: Dr Renu - I know you are very sincere and caring for others . In the last few months I understood from your posts that you were re-examining your foundation of your understanding ( I may be wrong if I have misunderstood that ) - hence I kept responding to your statements because I wanted to share my counter views to what you were saying.

PPS: You still have to share what you think is the difference in your mind between prayer to a God and what is taught as Bhakthi is Chapter 12 of B.Gita

 

[renuka]

PPS: You still have to share what you think is the difference in your mind between prayer to a God and what is taught as Bhakthi is Chapter 12 of B.Gita

Dear TKS ji,

I will certainly share my opinion..cos right now I am doing some revision Sanskrit lessons on Geeta..the author jumps from chapter to chapter as he is focusing on grammar and group similar grammar stanzas together.Chapter 12 stanzas have not come into the picture yet.

When I reach there I will surely share my opinion..need some time.
If I get time by this week I will surely reply you.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

I will certainly share my opinion..cos right now I am doing some revision Sanskrit lessons on Geeta..the author jumps from chapter to chapter as he is focusing on grammar and group similar grammar stanzas together.Chapter 12 stanzas have not come into the picture yet.

When I reach there I will surely share my opinion..need some time.
If I get time by this week I will surely reply you.

These topics can keep one engaged for a long time, there is no hurry - and it is not even necessary to share. If you have a clarity in your mind that is all that matters. The only reason I asked the question is because of your stated stance on prayer in other posts Thanks