Meritocracy and Quotas

[rishikesan]

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Meeting

Renukaji says to stop, that is good enough for me.

But I still I am not clear as to what you are writing, explain your thought please.
What unity? This site is for exchanging views. We have differing views, and sometimes the exchanges are a bit more loud. Your post in this thread is not pertaining to this thread. What is that you want to say?

Mr Prasad. I would be happy if Mrs Renuka also offer a reply, to what is written by me. It is one part that the site is intended to x-change views on a subject started by any member. I fully understand. You say that sometimes the x-changes are bit more loud I feel it is more louder, & the subject matter gets diluted & others have no scope to contribute usefully to the Topic . Hope you realise my view as well .
The Tamil brahmin Forum, I am thinking , from the time i found this by chance when I was brousing in my Daughter;s house in Cape canaveral last October 2012. that Mr Praveen has started this forum to identify the difficulties faced by Tamil Brahmins in order to make an attempt to uplift our lot in a Holistic manner & not get bogged with only some general topics alone. Besides I also feel that for some of the topics / queries raised by some new members are such that the answer is available on line sites. Of course I have to admit that I am not a Computer savvy & only interested genuinely to have interaction face to face or atleast over phone--whoever may be interested?
In this context, I once again stress that our leader, who I am sure may be reading my write-ups which are onyl general & not specific. Please you also impress upon Mr Praveen to invite some in a common place or some one{s house to have a get get-to- gether . I volunteer for this .

Affectionately,
A.Srinivasan ( rishikesan)

 

[tks]

None of what is stated above is factual. Just because a lie is repeated thousand times it does not become truth. There is no proof that caste system arose from varna system. There is no proof that brahmins are the only architects of varna system. These are all lies spread to malign brahmins and spread hatred against them.

There is no proof that caste system or the varna system has always remained a static system. It cannot be said that always the same set of people remained victims of the caste system. We know for sure that, for the past several decades, brahmins are victims of caste-based discrimination - so replacing casteism with the term brahminism is beyond mere mischief, it is cruel and does not reflect truth or facts in any way. It is akin to blaming the victim for the discrimination perpetrated on him.

Thanks to the this constant hatemmongering and venom spewing against the brahmins, the brahmins are getting cleverer and can better differentiate between foes and friends. That is a happy outcome coming out of such vicious attitude!

Sri KB

You and few others have a lot of patience indeed responding to posts that are repeats of the same old recycled குதிரை output !

Posts here reflect the persona of a person.

Sometimes ignoring certain posts may possibly be the best response

Regards

 

[praveen]

Please you also impress upon Mr Praveen to invite some in a common place or some one{s house to have a get get-to- gether . I volunteer for this .

This is not easy.. Last time we tried, out of 30+ people who said they will come, only 5 turned up of which 2 to 3 were part of the team that organized it.
If at all a group of members want to meet, they can do so and share the minutes here with the others on the site. Nothing stopping them from doing so. In another forum, this is what we do. The admin is in a different country.. so locally a few of us get together from time to time, discuss things and one of us post it on the site as minutes of the meeting.

 

[Nara]

..... There is no proof that caste system arose from varna system. There is no proof that brahmins are the only architects of varna system. These are all lies spread to malign brahmins and spread hatred against them.

Dear KB, If these are lies, then I am afraid Paramacharya is responsible. If these are lies spread to malign brahmins and spread hatred against them, then again, you are holding Paramacharya responsible for it. Please take look at this from Kamakoti.org (I have highlighted the text that speaks quite directly to Brahminism -- varna, and casteism -- jAti):

இந்த ஜாதி மதமேதான் உள்ளூர அவரவருக்குப் பாரம்பரியமாக ஏற்பட்ட குணமாகவும் இருக்குமாதலால் குணத்தால் சதுர்வர்ணம் பிரிவதாக பகவான் சொன்னதும், பிறப்பால் இப்படி ஜாதியாகப் பிரிவதும் ஒன்றேதான், ஒன்றுக் கொன்று முரணானதல்ல. தியரி, ப்ராக்டீஸ் என்று வெவ்வேறு விஷயங்களைச் சொல்கின்ற தோஷம் பரமாத்மாவுக்கு ஏற்படவில்லை.

பரசுராமர், த்ரரோணாச்சாரியார் இவர்கள் பிராம்மணராயினும் க்ஷத்ரிய குணத்தோடு இருந்தார்கரே. விச்வாமித்திரர் புஜபல பராக்ரமத்தோடும் ராஜஸ குணத்தோடும் இருந்துவிட்டே அப்புறம் பிரம்மரிஷி ஆனாரே என்றால் இதெல்லாம் கோடியில் ஒன்றாக இருந்த exception கள் (விதிவிலக்கு) தான். எந்த ரூலானாலும் எக்ஸப்ஷன் உண்டோ இவ்வியோ, பொதுவாக வெளிப்பட வேறு குணம் தெரிந்த போது கூட உள்ளூரப் பிறப்பாலான ஜாதித் தொழிலுக்கேற்ற குணந்தான் இருக்கும் என்ற அபிப்ராயத்திலேயே பகவான் காரியம் பண்ணினதாகத்தான் தெரிகிறது.

​

Here is the link for this particular quote: ??????????? ??????? ???????? : ( ??????????? ????? - ???????? ????? ) : kamakoti.org:. There is more, much more in this site.

Please KB, do not get angry and emotional. Every Brahmin who thinks of himself/herself as Brahmin look upon one of the Shankarachariayrs or some Matham head as their revered spiritual leader. Each and every one of these leaders without exception consider Dharmashashras as the extracted essence of Vedic teachings of how to live one's life. They promote their sishyas to follow these Shasthras to the extent possible. Anyone who falls short the best practices cannot come near their inner circle. I have seen first hand the contempt with which NBs are treated in the Matams, except of course if the NB is a money bag. This is the face Brahmins project to the rest of the society and this is the face the rest of society sees. So, Brahmins own Brahminism/casteism. Who the original architect was really does not change any of these facts. Also, if Brahmins are not to be held responsible for this system why can't they reject it? Let the Martathipathees declare in public that Varna system or caste system is not their making, they are not the architects, and they reject it. Do you think this will happen in our life times?

There is no proof that caste system or the varna system has always remained a static system. It cannot be said that always the same set of people remained victims of the caste system.

Yes, this is true. Due to various reasons groups changed ranking relative to others, but the society was still arranged in a hierarchical gradation, some were by birth Brahmins at the top and some were panchamas down at the bottom. The sine quo non of Varna/jAti system is to regiment people into hierarchical grouping based on birth. Which group occupied a particular tier in a particular time period does not change this essential nature of the system.

We know for sure that, for the past several decades, brahmins are victims of caste-based discrimination

Let us be honest about this, the only caste-based discrimination Brahmins of Tamilnadu faced in the last few decades is reservation system in educational institutions. Even in this case, the only true discrimination middle-class Brahmins with less than stellar grades faced was they were locked out of MBBS, that is all. Brahmins with decent enough grades get admission in all other fields all the time.

Present day Brahmins may protest they are innocent of any oppression and why must they face any caste-based discrimination at all, why must they be shut out of MBBS unless they have near perfect grades. Well, whether the Brahmins like it or not, the burden of righting historical injustice has to fall on somebody and it will have to fall on the descendents of the past oppressors. Perhaps Brahmins may see them bearing an unfair share of the burden, even so, this unfair share is not that bad relative to over thousand years of oppression, I don't have to list them, we know it all too well. Also, by and large, over these past several decades Brahmins have done quite well economically, not a big burden after all!!!

- so replacing casteism with the term brahminism is beyond mere mischief, it is cruel and does not reflect truth or facts in any way. It is akin to blaming the victim for the discrimination perpetrated on him.

Why do you have to ascribe such mean motives to me? Why can't you stick to the issues? Your general tone is one of anger towards me, you see me as a hate monger, cruel, lier, playing mischief, spewing venom, etc., all because I think Brahminism, namely the religion of Dharmashashtras a taste of which I have cited above, is a vile ideology and Brahmins must repudiate it? If you disagree with my view please tell me why I am wrong. Just reacting in anger is not healthy.

Thanks to the this constant hatemmongering and venom spewing against the brahmins, the brahmins are getting cleverer and can better differentiate between foes and friends. That is a happy outcome coming out of such vicious attitude!

Sigh!!! Don't you see such language can only cause bad blood. I will take it on my chin, no problem, but it does take a toll man, please ease up a little.

Sri KB

You and few others have a lot of patience indeed responding to posts that are repeats of the same old recycled குதிரை output !

Posts here reflect the persona of a person.

Sometimes ignoring certain posts may possibly be the best response

Regards

Good advice, but tks, why do you have to use such comparison? If you disagree with me talk to me, or ignore me, must you say what I am saying is குதிரை output? As you have said above, could we take your comment to reflect your persona? Please don't tell me you didn't mean me, or something like -- if the glove fits own it. Who you intended is all too clear.

thank you ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear KB, If these are lies, then I am afraid Paramacharya is responsible. If these are lies spread to malign brahmins and spread hatred against them, then again, you are holding Paramacharya responsible for it.
<snip>
So, Brahmins own Brahminism/casteism. Who the original architect was really does not change any of these facts.

I am afraid the quotes provided are not proofs for the questions that I raised. The quotes make no mention of the origins of varna or the caste system. Even if one were to postulate the equivalency of varna and caste (i.e. varna based on guna, and guna based on birth), that in no way makes Brahmins owners of casteism or that the words brahminism (incidentally this word does not appear in the article at all) can be used interchangeably. That is your mischief and because this mischief is really an attempt to blame Brahmins for the practices of others, it is unjust and needs to be condemned.

Every Brahmin who thinks of himself/herself as Brahmin look upon one of the Shankarachariayrs or some Matham head as their revered spiritual leader.

The Paramacharya also says that the varna system is beneficial for the fourth varna. Do you also agree with this opinion of Paramacharya? If you don't agree with this, then the varna system that the Paramcharya talks about is not the same as casteism that you are referring to when you say it is a vile system. Therefore you are only fooling yourself if you based your hypothesis on Paramacharya's word. For these reasons, the attempts to bring Paramacharya to your defense is poor and invalid.

Also, if Brahmins are not to be held responsible for this system why can't they reject it?

There is no logic in this question at all. Why should Brahmins, even those who believe in the caste system, be held responsible for the casteism practiced by others? Or if take it that your question is logical, as a corollary, why should NOT the non-Brahmins who have not rejected it be held responsible for what they practice?

I have seen first hand the contempt with which NBs are treated in the Matams, except of course if the NB is a money bag. This is the face Brahmins project to the rest of the society and this is the face the rest of society sees.

These are not relevant to this discussion at all. The Matams don't have a strange-hold on anyone, whether B's or NB's. The NB's, if they are treated with contempt, are wise enough to avoid the Matam.

Yes, this is true. Due to various reasons groups changed ranking relative to others, but the society was still arranged in a hierarchical gradation, some were by birth Brahmins at the top and some were panchamas down at the bottom.
<Snip>
Present day Brahmins may protest they are innocent of any oppression and why must they face any caste-based discrimination at all, why must they be shut out of MBBS unless they have near perfect grades. Well, whether the Brahmins like it or not, the burden of righting historical injustice has to fall on somebody and it will have to fall on the descendents of the past oppressors.

When you yourself agree that for various reasons the ranking of groups changed, how can the present day Brahmins be considered the descendents of past oppressors?

Perhaps Brahmins may see them bearing an unfair share of the burden, even so, this unfair share is not that bad relative to over thousand years of oppression

The problem is that the burden that is being forced on the Brahmins today to benefit largely the oppressors of the past! The Brahmins do not have to share this burden at all.

..all because I think Brahminism, namely the religion of Dharmashashtras a taste of which I have cited above, is a vile ideology and Brahmins must repudiate it? If you disagree with my view please tell me why I am wrong. Just reacting in anger is not healthy.

That is not what you are saying. You are trying to blame Brahmins for what others practice in the name of casteism. That is not acceptable. What you are doing is actually vile and I am unable to say this nicely.

I acknowledge your efforts in reaching out ever since you came back to the forum. However, on this issue of assigning blame to Brahmins for faults of others, there can be no compromise.

 

[renuka]

Dear Prasad, & also Mrs Renuka, You have mentioned about my comments about Mrs Renuka, & requested me to apologise to her . Why not ? When any one including my 6 grand children,I never, ever hesitate to heartily apologise even if anyone has the slightest hurt ? So, I honestly apologise to Mrs Renuka & to you & also anyone else on our forum, who also may have thought like that.
Once again I appeal to All ---Let us show Unity at all costs.

A.Srinivasan ( rishikesan0

Dear Rishikeshan Ji,

I appreciate your gesture from the bottom of my heart.

Actually to be frank I was not really expecting an apology cos I was just kind of confused why my name was dragged in without a valid reason and nothing more.

Mostly I maintain Sai thread, write comments(mostly humorous and U tube aided),debate mainly based on either religious or scientific facts or hang out in chit chat section,dabble with sanskrit....in other words..I am all over the forum but I hope you understand that I have never shown any sort of superiority in any post and do not have "hatred" towards any caste,creed or person.Most importantly I am not anti TB.

If I dont know anything I admit my lack of knowledge and learn from others too and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt too.

If you had gone through the previous rape thread and saw my reply to Sangom Ji..you would have known that despite the fact medical psychological case studies done on Western rapist seemed to show that clothing of victims had hardly any influence on the rapist..I still gave the benefit of the doubt to those who believed that revealing clothings increases incidence of rape in India owing to the fact that a Desi case study was not done..so a cultural difference between a Desi rapist and Western rapist could actually make the outcome of any study differ.

This is how I think...always open to anything..and out of the box mainly.

So I was quite taken a back that you assumed that I displayed superiority in my post.
That was what I was wondering..when and how?

But anyway I am glad that everything has been cleared now and everyone can move on.

Thank you very much Sir..hope we all can engage more in day to day discussions on topic we might agree or disagree.

regards
Renuka

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Rishikeshan Ji,

I appreciate your gesture from the bottom of my heart.

Actually to be frank I was not really expecting an apology cos I was just kind of confused why my name was dragged in without a valid reason and nothing more.

Mostly I maintain Sai thread, write comments(mostly humorous and U tube aided),debate mainly based on either religious or scientific facts or hang out in chit chat section,dabble with sanskrit....in other words..I am all over the forum but I hope you understand that I have never shown any sort of superiority in any post and do not have "hatred" towards any caste,creed or person.Most importantly I am not anti TB.

If I dont know anything I admit my lack of knowledge and learn from others too and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt too.

If you had gone through the previous rape thread and saw my reply to Sangom Ji..you would have known that despite the fact medical psychological case studies done on Western rapist seemed to show that clothing of victims had hardly any influence on the rapist..I still gave the benefit of the doubt to those who believed that revealing clothings increases incidence of rape in India owing to the fact that a Desi case study was not done..so a cultural difference between a Desi rapist and Western rapist could actually make the outcome of any study differ.

This is how I think...always open to anything..and out of the box mainly.

So I was quite taken a back that you assumed that I displayed superiority in my post.
That was what I was wondering..when and how?

But anyway I am glad that everything has been cleared now and everyone can move on.

Thank you very much Sir..hope we all can engage more in day to day discussions on topic we might agree or disagree.

regards
Renuka

Dear Mrs renuka, I have read what is written by you. Fact remains that you are very active, along with some others are called as veterens / does it mean Sr to this forum or anything else ? In my write up I mainly requested Mr praveen to let me know , if some serious thought can be given in identifying the needs of Tamil brahmins as a whole or any particular area , we have pay attention for the betterment/ upliftment , so that persons like you & your forum friends who have correctly understood your writings can think seriously=== if at all the Tamil brahmins need any such assistance from this forum , if so serious thought can be given.
But Mr Praveen has categorically mentioned in his reply to me that he tried & about 30 persons showed interest & in the end it was only single digit ?So are we to keep quite & go our way leaving this forum only for topics/ discussions based on them & be with it / My feeling is that, we should try to think big & rope in persons who may have original ideas &energetic & willingly take up issues / for lofty goals. As I mentioned, I am not an Organizer, but be useful with my ideas because of experiences in life & have first hand knowledge of Tamil brahmins & their predicaments in marriage & Job/ health Etc.
i also request MR praveen as to whether I CAN GET INTO ANOTHER forum in which he is actively contributing / let us keep our UNITY

sincerely,
A.srinivasan 9 rishikesan)

 

[tks]

Good advice, but tks, why do you have to use such comparison? If you disagree with me talk to me, or ignore me, must you say what I am saying is குதிரை output? As you have said above, could we take your comment to reflect your persona? Please don't tell me you didn't mean me, or something like -- if the glove fits own it. Who you intended is all too clear.

thank you ....

Sri Nara

You can use my comment to draw any conclusion you want.

I mostly skip details of your posts often and I have mentioned why. I was only sharing with KB what I tend to do.

Now why single out a few posts to make a point?

One can disagree and present counter points - but the response has to display an understanding of what the opposing view pointed out.

Your response (and you can review all your past postings ) are recycled views like a broken record with no value added other than spread a message of hatred towards an 'ism' - which by itself is attempt at being clever but fails to do so. Let me make a few specific points and I know your response will not include processing any of this (and hence it is useless to continue)

1. Sri Vaagmi told you that (and I am paraphrasing) that he does not accept outsiders writing of Brahminism. Why do you insist on equating caste-ism to Brahminism and put down everyone while no one that I know here supports Caste-ism (except I am not sure about you and I have given reasons for my assessment)

2. I have posted what I understand Brahminism to mean - All Sanskrit words have verbal roots and are not arbitrary words. The meaning does not say go and discriminate people on the basis of birth.

3. You can quote Manu Smrithi or Kanchi site. What people have told you is that you have to understand the full context before drawing conclusion. Inability for your posts to comprehend context was our first debate point. Have you read all of Daivatthin Kural? I dont think so.

4. When anyone describes hateful comments about anything repeatedly there is an issue that only a psychotherapist can competently address. Object of hate can evolve easily and even in milder form people holding such views cannot be trusted.

KB has given you some specific points,

What is the point in acting 'holier than thou' - do you think anyone is going to give you special recognition for speaking against Brahminism when everyone here is against caste-ism? What is the cause of this obsession?

There are major social issues of today - sex trafficking, practical slavery of poor by very rich and today's social order allows and enhances it, child labor, cruelty against animals ... you can your pick and if you are speaking with scholarly points I can even understand what you are made of (not that it matters to you) and will have immense respect to your posts.

The phrase communicates (American expression when translated) what I think of the recycled ideas - it was not personal, directed only at the posts

Regards

 

[prasad1]

Naraji,
By your own admission you are from SV background, and as such have no special veneration for Shankaracharya. You quote him to suit your arguments, but I bet you do not follow any of his teachings. You take pride in parsing the Shankaracharya site, and even take a comment out of context to bolster your point.

Let us assume that (even though he never said it as per KB) he said Brahmins should be proud of their heritage. There is nothing wrong, him being a brahmin, and most of his audience being same. He is not the only leader of Hinduism.
The Indian government and Indian society is not run by Shankaracharya. Todays Hindus are governed by a secular organization (?). Rhe society run by itself (look like it).
Why do you keep tying to blame Brahmins (you included), for what ever malady is there in the society. What is the guilt you carry? You need professional help to overcome this guilty feeling you have.
This is not my usual argument, but a serious suggestion.

 

[Nara]

... The quotes make no mention of the origins of varna or the caste system ...... Even if one were to postulate the equivalency of varna and caste (i.e. varna based on guna, and guna based on birth), that in no way makes Brahmins owners of casteism or that the words brahminism .... That is your mischief and because this mischief is really an attempt to blame Brahmins for the practices of others, it is unjust and needs to be condemned.

KB, do you really think Brahmanas do not own varna ideology because in your mind there is ambiguity of its origins? Even if there is this ambiguity, Dharmashasthras have been revered as the distilled essence of "good" living by the acharya lineage of all brahmins, from Adi Shankara, Ramanuja, etc., to the present day acharyas. So, Brahmins do own Brahminism/casteism irrespective of its origin. BTW, the term Brahminism has been in use for a long time among a range of groups including academics. I didn't invent it. I know you don't want to hear any of this, but it is not my mischief, these are indisputable facts.

The Paramacharya also says that the varna system is beneficial for the fourth varna. Do you also agree with this opinion of Paramacharya? If you don't agree with this, then the varna system that the Paramcharya talks about is not the same as casteism that you are referring to when you say it is a vile system. Therefore you are only fooling yourself if you based your hypothesis on Paramacharya's word. For these reasons, the attempts to bring Paramacharya to your defense is poor and invalid.

I don't get this. If I understood you correctly, your claim was that varna system and casteism are different. I quoted Paramacharya's own words that connect Chaturvarnya to jAti. So it is indisputable that at least according to one of the most revered Brahmincal acharya of these times there is a connection between the two. Whatever may have been the kind of casteism Paramacharya had in mind I have clearly shown you are wrong to deny any connection between varna system and caste system.

Why must I agree with Paramacharya's claim that varna system benefits the fourth varna? It is besides the point anyway. It is silly to say I can't comment on it because I don't agree with Paramacharya. What makes this all the more inexcusable is Brahmins telling the fourth varna what is good for them.

There is no logic in this question at all. Why should Brahmins, even those who believe in the caste system, be held responsible for the casteism practiced by others? Or if take it that your question is logical, as a corollary, why should NOT the non-Brahmins who have not rejected it be held responsible for what they practice?

If Brahmins insist they have no responsibility for the caste system but get blamed for it, it is of course logical to ask why can't you repudiate it. If you glorify Varna system and the connected caste system, ones that put Brahmins on top of everybody else, then you will be held responsible. Yes, non-brahmins also should reject this system. Everyone should.

These are not relevant to this discussion at all. The Matams don't have a strange-hold on anyone, whether B's or NB's. The NB's, if they are treated with contempt, are wise enough to avoid the Matam.

It is relevant because casteism in its ugly form is practiced in these bastions of Brahminism. So, Brahmins are into casteism up to their neck. That is why it is relevant. The thought that NBs must avoid going to Matams, or, if they dare go there, must be prepared to be treated with contempt smacks of exclusivity and supremacy.

When you yourself agree that for various reasons the ranking of groups changed, how can the present day Brahmins be considered the descendents of past oppressors?

KB, you are misunderstanding me completely. I am not blaming anybody. It is the system that I am railing against. This system is oppressive and it must be dismantled, and I think Brahmins can play an important role, if only they stop being defensive.

The problem is that the burden that is being forced on the Brahmins today to benefit largely the oppressors of the past! The Brahmins do not have to share this burden at all.

The burden Brahmins had to face is relatively minor. Brahmins have prospered in the past several decades. Instead of nursing a victimhood mentality they need to move on, and I think they are indeed doing that in a big way --thats good.

That is not what you are saying. You are trying to blame Brahmins for what others practice in the name of casteism. That is not acceptable. What you are doing is actually vile and I am unable to say this nicely.

So now you are going to tell me what I am saying? I have never said Brahmins are to blame for the casteism practiced by others. My argument is that in as much as the varna and its adjunct jati are glorified by Brahmins, they cannot shirk their share of the blame. Brahmins provide the intellectual justification for this monster and therefore they cannot avoid blame. If you look through your Brahmin-colored eye glasses I am sure this will seem vile.

thank you ....

 

[sarang]

How can brahmins be oppressors whether in the past or now? they were a minority, physically weak, abhorred violence, were never in power, minded their own business, did not possess wealth, had to depend on all other varnas for their existance. Only failing one can attribute is perhaps intellectual arrogance.

Brahmins never oppressed anybody; this blame hoisted on a brahmin's head must be rejected by all brahmins.

When you yourself agree that for various reasons the ranking of groups changed, how can the present day Brahmins be considered the descendents of past oppressors?



The problem is that the burden that is being forced on the Brahmins today to benefit largely the oppressors of the past! The Brahmins do not have to share this burden at all.



That is not what you are saying. You are trying to blame Brahmins for what others practice in the name of casteism. That is not acceptable. What you are doing is actually vile and I am unable to say this nicely.

I acknowledge your efforts in reaching out ever since you came back to the forum. However, on this issue of assigning blame to Brahmins for faults of others, there can be no compromise.

 

[Nara]

All the irrelevant claptrap deleted .... I will choose what topics I want to talk about, it is none of your damn business ....

The phrase communicates (American expression when translated) what I think of the recycled ideas - it was not personal, directed only at the posts

I am aware of some quintessential American expressions that fit very well for the kind of posts you make, but I will not stoop, nothing personal, only the kind of posts you make ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

BTW, the term Brahminism has been in use for a long time among a range of groups including academics. I didn't invent it. I know you don't want to hear any of this, but it is not my mischief, these are indisputable facts.

Whether the term already existed is a moot point. Did I say that this term was invented by you? The point is whether this term can be used interchangeably with casteism. No they cannot. That is your mischief.

I don't get this. If I understood you correctly, your claim was that varna system and casteism are different. I quoted Paramacharya's own words that connect Chaturvarnya to jAti. So it is indisputable that at least according to one of the most revered Brahmincal acharya of these times there is a connection between the two. Whatever may have been the kind of casteism Paramacharya had in mind I have clearly shown you are wrong to deny any connection between varna system and caste system.

Why must I agree with Paramacharya's claim that varna system benefits the fourth varna? It is besides the point anyway.

Sorry. The link you provided does not show any historical information. The Paramacharya was philosophizing and trying to show the connection between varna and jari. So if that is the only proof that you can offer then you have to consider the whole philosophy - not pick parts that suits you and ignore that is detrimental to your argument.

It is silly to say I can't comment on it because I don't agree with Paramacharya.

You can comment on it. But you cannot interpret him in the way you want by taking his words selectively. It is certainly silly to show Parmacharya's words as proof for your contention while simultaneously disagreeing with it! In essence, you are disagreeing with yourself.

What makes this all the more inexcusable is Brahmins telling the fourth varna what is good for them.

Why it is inexcusable? It is up to the people to decide whether they want to accept or reject what Paramacharya is saying.

By the same logic why should Nara say what is good for the Brahmins or what is good for the fourth varna?

If Brahmins insist they have no responsibility for the caste system but get blamed for it, it is of course logical to ask why can't you repudiate it. If you glorify Varna system and the connected caste system, ones that put Brahmins on top of everybody else, then you will be held responsible. Yes, non-brahmins also should reject this system. Everyone should.

You are purposefully not answering the question that I raised.
The question is why should the Brahmins be held responsible or blamed for the casteism practiced by NBs?
What NBs practice is their business. Why should the Brahmins repudiate what others practice in order to absolve themselves of any blame?

It is relevant because casteism in its ugly form is practiced in these bastions of Brahminism. So, Brahmins are into casteism up to their neck.

It is not relevant to the question of why Brahmins should be held responsible for casteism practiced by others?

I have no issue if you blame Brahmins for what they do. But do not blame brahmins for what others do.

KB, you are misunderstanding me completely. I am not blaming anybody. It is the system that I am railing against. This system is oppressive and it must be dismantled, and I think Brahmins can play an important role, if only they stop being defensive.

By calling the system which is casteism as "brahminism" you are indeed trying to blame Brahmins. It is wrong to do so because brahmins have also been victims of this system. The Brahmins have every right to be defensive if they are accused of something in which they are at the receiving end.

Instead of nursing a victimhood mentality they need to move on, and I think they are indeed doing that in a big way --thats good.

Brahmins can tolerate this burden now but they also note that the burden is ever increasing. In any case, the brahmins won't tolerate if you blame the brahmins thesemlves for this burden that is forced on them.

 

[Nara]

KB, as the back and forth continues we sometimes lose track of the point of contention. The question is whether Brahminism can be associated with casteism the way I often do. I have shown that I just didn't make this connection up, even the much revered Acharyas made this connection. What I see in the texts and the society is what Paramacharya also saw. This does not mean I am agreeing with Paramacharya, or Paramacharya agrees with me, just that we both have the same view on this issue. It must be obvious that all this does not mean Paramacharya agrees with everything I say any more than I agreeing with him on everything. All this talk that I am picking and choosing does not add up. Thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in 304:

Dear KB, If these are lies, then I am afraid Paramacharya is responsible. If these are lies spread to malign brahmins and spread hatred against them, then again, you are holding Paramacharya responsible for it. Please take look at this from Kamakoti.org (I have highlighted the text that speaks quite directly to Brahminism -- varna, and casteism -- jAti):

I have highlighted your words to point out the spin you have given there in them. How come brahminism = varna and Casteism= jAti? This is what I call twisting the facts to suit one’s convenience. You have taken a position for long that there is an ism called brahminism and when I asked you long back to define it you had referred me to Wikipedia for the definition as if Wikipedia is the final arbiter in such matters.) Every Brahmin is aware that castes and casteism are two different things. Caste is a given fact, that there are groups among people with different cultures, traits, food habits etc., etc., whereas casteism is allocating the various castes various positions in a caste totem pole. With this positioning comes all the atrocities and discriminations. The atrocity can be denying a person his normal right by merit to get a seat in a medical college or denying a person the right to draw water from the common well in the village which may be the only source of water there. “People are born equal” is only a way of saying that each one born in this world has his right to enjoy a share in the commonwealth of the country/world. It can not be extended to mean that each one is endowed with the same level of health, wisdom, beauty etc at birth. When you equate caste with casteism you are mixing up these two fundamentally different facts. All the recycling you do of your views arise from this basic misunderstanding of a given situation. Even if we take it that varnas and jAtis are the same you have not given any proof that Brahmins were the architects of the caste system. My repeated demand to solve the puzzle of numbers-less than 2% of the population said to have committed atrocities on the rest 98% of the population-has not been addressed by you.

இந்த ஜாதி மதமேதான் உள்ளூர அவரவருக்குப் பாரம்பரியமாக ஏற்பட்ட குணமாகவும் இருக்குமாதலால் குணத்தால் சதுர்வர்ணம் பிரிவதாக பகவான் சொன்னதும், பிறப்பால் இப்படி ஜாதியாகப் பிரிவதும் ஒன்றேதான், ஒன்றுக் கொன்று முரணானதல்ல. தியரி, ப்ராக்டீஸ் என்று வெவ்வேறு விஷயங்களைச் சொல்கின்ற தோஷம் பரமாத்மாவுக்கு ஏற்படவில்லை…………..பகவான் காரியம் பண்ணினதாகத்தான் தெரிகிறது. Every Brahmin who thinks of himself/herself as Brahmin look upon one of the Shankarachariayrs or some Matham head as their revered spiritual leader. Each and every one of these leaders without exception consider Dharmashashras as the extracted essence of Vedic teachings of how to live one's life. They promote their sishyas to follow these Shasthras to the extent possible. Anyone who falls short the best practices cannot come near their inner circle. I have seen first hand the contempt with which NBs are treated in the Matams, except of course if the NB is a money bag. This is the face Brahmins project to the rest of the society and this is the face the rest of society sees.

What Paramacharya says is the same as what I have said above. He speaks about the way human beings are born and live in this world. There is no scope to interpret it as casteism with all the atrocity and discrimination connotations. Those who are prejudiced can of course look at it only that way. Every Brahmin considers these acharyas as revered spiritual leader. So what? These leaders do not talk about jAti alone when we go them-that we have other jAti leaders who ask their followers to burn public property and they are either tolerated or ignored by our intellectuals is another matter- they talk about a hundred other things. Even when they speak about jAtis they do not advise us to hate other people on the basis of caste. Brahmins never rub the dharmashastras and vedic teachings on other communities. So they have no locus standi to question what we talk among ourselves about these D.Shastras and Vedas and upanisheds.

So, Brahmins own Brahminism/casteism. Who the original architect was really does not change any of these facts. Also, if Brahmins are not to be held responsible for this system why can't they reject it? Let the Martathipathees declare in public that Varna system or caste system is not their making, they are not the architects, and they reject it. Do you think this will happen in our life times?

Brahmins do not own any ism. They are intelligent enough to understand the existence of differences among groups of people. And why should they reject any thing? It is like demanding you to declare that you have stopped beating your wife. This advice would be suitable for those who burn houses and buses for a inter-caste marriage. We do not kill or maim people in the name of caste, we do not deny any body anything in the name of caste (you may talk about Vedas being denied to shudras, which I have already proved with chapter and verse to be untrue, but then who is bothered about Vedas these days though everything is available in net).

… but the society was still arranged in a hierarchical gradation, some were by birth Brahmins at the top and some were panchamas down at the bottom. The sine quo non of Varna/jAti system is to regiment people into hierarchical grouping based on birth. Which group occupied a particular tier in a particular time period does not change this essential nature of the system.

When you recycle, I have to repeat and I have no option. Brahmins have nothing to do with this so called gradation

Let us be honest about this, the only caste-based discrimination Brahmins of Tamilnadu faced in the last few decades is reservation system in educational institutions. Even in this case, the only true discrimination middle-class Brahmins with less than stellar grades faced was they were locked out of MBBS, that is all. Brahmins with decent enough grades get admission in all other fields all the time.
Present day Brahmins may protest they are innocent of any oppression and why must they face any caste-based discrimination at all, why must they be shut out of MBBS unless they have near perfect grades. Well, whether the Brahmins like it or not, the burden of righting historical injustice has to fall on somebody and it will have to fall on the descendents of the past oppressors. Perhaps Brahmins may see them bearing an unfair share of the burden, even so, this unfair share is not that bad relative to over thousand years of oppression, I don't have to list them, we know it all too well. Also, by and large, over these past several decades Brahmins have done quite well economically, not a big burden after all!!!

It is not as simple as that to be dismissed lightly. The reservation is there not only in educational institutions, it is there in who gets a scholarship, who gets a job who gets a promotion and who wields power. Any one born in a country should have the right to have an equal share in the commonwealth of the country. This is denied to Brahmins. Again please solve the number puzzle and then talk about who should bear what burden and who is responsible for the so called historical injustice.

Most of what you have written is all recycled materials and what I have given reply is also the same category. But you are not leaving me with any other option. Thanks.

 

[sangom]

This is just an attempt to put forward what little I have learned and I feel is the present position in regard to Brahminism/casteism etc.

What I have found that the western scholars referred to the social standing at the highest level given to (and also claimed by) Brahmins. One sample:

"Brāhmaṇism grew out of Vedic religion. It teaches the identification of all the forces and phenomena of Nature with one spiritual Being — the only real Entity — which when unmanifested and impersonal, is called Brahma (neut.); when manifested as a creator, is called Brahmā (masc.); as a disintegrator, śiva; as a preserver, viṣṇu; and when manifested in the highest order of men, is called Brāhmaṇa ('the Brāhmans'). Brāhmaṇism is rather a philosophy than a religion."
(Brahmanism and Hinduism : Or Religious Thought and Life in Asia By Sir Monier Monier-Williams)

Thus the word "Brāhmaṇism" presupposes the concept or belief in the superiority of the Brāhmaṇas among humans. The caste system may or may not have arisen directly out of this Brāhmaṇism; at least we have no definite proof to believe so. The four-classes system or the four-castes system (cāturvarṇyaṃ) might have been imposed or it might have come inside the Vedic society as a mere continuation of the three-class (some references give four)system which was prevalent in the ancient Iranian society. But somehow it stuck to the sub-continental society for millennia. The main charge against it (cāturvarṇyaṃ) is that it became a birth-based classification and ended up as highly discriminatory against the lowest classes. There is a good possibility that the śūdras & pañcamas were not considered as full-fledged members of the society but as some sort of quasi slaves, much like how the African Americans are, or have till recently been, treated as in the US.

We tabras, all of whom claim to be Brāhmaṇas because of our birth and the Government's classification for various purposes, are in truth in a non man's land, I feel. Because of our various kinds of avocations/occupations today, many of us (almost all, I feel) are no longer Brāhmaṇas in the sense of the ancient cāturvarṇyaṃ parameters; at the same time, many among us are unable to shake off (forget) the sense of superiority and latent pride that we, the Brāhmaṇas, the special manifestation of the one Supreme Brahman in the human level, have been bestowed upon, in terms of the Brāhmaṇism philosophy. This seems to be the predicament.

The world has changed a lot - from the era of the acme of cāturvarṇyaṃ, Brāhmaṇism, etc. - with time and the old philosophy of Brāhmaṇism can no longer work today and these realities have forced the Brāhmaṇa community to even take up menial tasks, including cleaning of the Sulabh Souchalayas. Tabras may not have come to this kind of situation, possibly because most of our younger generation people are nothing but śūdras serving the Vaisyas, śūdras or the mḷecchas in foreign lands and are thus, at best eligible for śūdra status only and nothing more, but none of us can accurately predict what all may happen in future. The condition could only worsen, judging by the current trends. So, it is better for all of us as a group to become acutely aware of the critical stage in which the Brāhmaṇa community/caste/class finds itself today, feel humbled and accept a cease-fire on this topic of Brāhmaṇa superiority, Brāhmaṇa exclusivity or Brāhmaṇa greatness, etc.

I used to hold the view that the present day brahmins must share the blame for the caste-based atrocities perpetrated on the śūdras & pañcamas from the ancient times. I am not making any statement in regard to this point now. After more study on this topic I will come back to express my views.

 

[prasad1]

How can brahmins be oppressors whether in the past or now? they were a minority, physically weak, abhorred violence, were never in power, minded their own business, did not possess wealth, had to depend on all other varnas for their existance. Only failing one can attribute is perhaps intellectual arrogance.

Brahmins never oppressed anybody; this blame hoisted on a brahmin's head must be rejected by all brahmins.

I agree with you 100%, being that Brahmin. I do not have any superiority complex because of my birth. I have other reason to be proud of my accomplishments.

 

[renuka]

Dear Mrs renuka, I have read what is written by you. Fact remains that you are very active, along with some others are called as veterens / does it mean Sr to this forum or anything else ? In my write up I mainly requested Mr praveen to let me know , if some serious thought can be given in identifying the needs of Tamil brahmins as a whole or any particular area , we have pay attention for the betterment/ upliftment , so that persons like you & your forum friends who have correctly understood your writings can think seriously=== if at all the Tamil brahmins need any such assistance from this forum , if so serious thought can be given.
But Mr Praveen has categorically mentioned in his reply to me that he tried & about 30 persons showed interest & in the end it was only single digit ?So are we to keep quite & go our way leaving this forum only for topics/ discussions based on them & be with it / My feeling is that, we should try to think big & rope in persons who may have original ideas &energetic & willingly take up issues / for lofty goals. As I mentioned, I am not an Organizer, but be useful with my ideas because of experiences in life & have first hand knowledge of Tamil brahmins & their predicaments in marriage & Job/ health Etc.
i also request MR praveen as to whether I CAN GET INTO ANOTHER forum in which he is actively contributing / let us keep our UNITY

sincerely,
A.srinivasan 9 rishikesan)

Dear Sir,

I can understand what you mean.

But I really don't know how I can ever contribute anything as you suggested cos being a Non TB and citizen of Malaysia..I have the faintest idea about anything TB in terms of culture,lifestyle and problems faced in life by TBs.

All my knowledge about TBs are just from this Forum further more I have hardly met any TB out here in Malaysia in real life.

The only unity I know is Unity in Diversity and to pray for the welfare of mankind as a whole besides the charity I usually do from time to time for any race and religion out here.

I feel your need to discuss your plans with senior by age TB members here who know exactly what is needed by TBs of the present era.

Your ideas are noble..so lets hope you are able to implement them as soon as possible.

BTW sir...veteran here means means the number of posts a person has written not by age.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in # 316:

What I have found that the western scholars referred to the social standing at the highest level given to (and also claimed by) Brahmins. One sample:
"Brāhmaṇism grew out of Vedic religion. It teaches the identification of all the forces and phenomena of Nature with one spiritual Being — the only real Entity — which when unmanifested and impersonal, is called Brahma (neut.); when manifested as a creator, is called Brahmā (masc.); as a disintegrator, śiva; as a preserver, viṣṇu; and when manifested in the highest order of men, is called Brāhmaṇa ('the Brāhmans'). Brāhmaṇism is rather a philosophy than a religion."
(Brahmanism and Hinduism : Or Religious Thought and Life in Asia By Sir Monier Monier-Williams)

That we are comfortable quoting a western “scholar” and adopting his wisdom without hesitation while we are unable to accept an Indian “scholar”(the Paramacharya) and his interpretation of what is caste (the Kamakoti extract discussed here above) speaks volumes about our strange orientations. Leaving that at that, this quote from Monier does not say anything about the vocation of one who has accepted “Brahmanism”. If any thing this speaks about a lofty philosophical concept and nothing else. This sounds more like the Jaina philosophy in which evolved souls become just Tirthankaras and keep going up and up.

Thus the word "Brāhmaṇism" presupposes the concept or belief in the superiority of the Brāhmaṇas among humans. The caste system may or may not have arisen directly out of this Brāhmaṇism; at least we have no definite proof to believe so. The four-classes system or the four-castes system (cāturvarṇyaṃ) might have been imposed or it might have come inside the Vedic society as a mere continuation of the three-class (some references give four)system which was prevalent in the ancient Iranian society. But somehow it stuck to the sub-continental society for millennia. The main charge against it (cāturvarṇyaṃ) is that it became a birth-based classification and ended up as highly discriminatory against the lowest classes. There is a good possibility that the śūdras & pañcamas were not considered as full-fledged members of the society but as some sort of quasi slaves, much like how the African Americans are, or have till recently been, treated as in the US.

This being a statement of the facts there is no dispute whatsoever. I agree with all that is said in this para.

We tabras, all of whom claim to be Brāhmaṇas because of our birth and the Government's classification for various purposes, are in truth in a non man's land, I feel. Because of our various kinds of avocations/occupations today, many of us (almost all, I feel) are no longer Brāhmaṇas in the sense of the ancient cāturvarṇyaṃ parameters; at the same time, many among us are unable to shake off (forget) the sense of superiority and latent pride that we, the Brāhmaṇas, the special manifestation of the one Supreme Brahman in the human level, have been bestowed upon, in terms of the Brāhmaṇism philosophy. This seems to be the predicament.

Here the problem starts. If what we have been talking about is Brahmanism as a philosophy why this sudden injection of avocations, occupations, sense of superiority, pride etc., into the reckoning? Dress, tuft, physical appearance, the weapons carried, the avocations, occupations, the food habits and in short the cultural aspects never stay static. They keep changing according to the demands of changing time. The member has not made out a case that the philosophy gave an edict about all these cultural aspects that they should never change and remain frozen. Nor is a case made out that the superiority that was envisaged in the philosophy was necessarily to be converted into “supremacist” or “chauvinist” flaunting. So those who were “manifestation of the highest order of men” can change with time in peripheral matters without suffering in the horns of a dilemma. As long as they keep the essence of the higher order manifestations in them in tact they can live here as brahmanas/Brahmins.

The world has changed a lot - from the era of the acme of cāturvarṇyaṃ, Brāhmaṇism, etc. - with time and the old philosophy of Brāhmaṇism can no longer work today and these realities have forced the Brāhmaṇa community to even take up menial tasks, including cleaning of the Sulabh Souchalayas. Tabras may not have come to this kind of situation, possibly because most of our younger generation people are nothing but śūdras serving the Vaisyas, śūdras or the mḷecchas in foreign lands and are thus, at best eligible for śūdra status only and nothing more, but none of us can accurately predict what all may happen in future. The condition could only worsen, judging by the current trends. So, it is better for all of us as a group to become acutely aware of the critical stage in which the Brāhmaṇa community/caste/class finds itself today, feel humbled and accept a cease-fire on this topic of Brāhmaṇa superiority, Brāhmaṇa exclusivity or Brāhmaṇa greatness, etc.

Menial labour is not at all an issue. And just because the occupation happens to be in a souchalaya a brahmana does not become a sudra. He becomes a sudra when he ruthlessly slaughters an animal or kills a fellow human being for whatever reasons or when he short-changed an user of the sulabh souchalaya!. He becomes a sudra when he destroys recklessly the public properties for whatever reason. An IT pro does not become a sudra serving a vaishya just because of his profession. He becomes a sudra when he burns his wife for not getting enough dowry for him. He becomes a sudra when he cheats people and while away his time and yet claims USD for the time thus wasted. Anything which is in conflict with the great things which have become the manifestation in him will deny him the status that he is a manifestation of those great things. When a Brahmin realizes this superiority he can really be confident about himself. There is nothing supremacist about this confidence.

What is needed is understanding the brahminhood for what it is. Thanks.

 

[renuka]

Menial labour is not at all an issue. And just because the occupation happens to be in a souchalaya a brahmana does not become a sudra. He becomes a sudra when he ruthlessly slaughters an animal or kills a fellow human being for whatever reasons or when he short-changed an user of the sulabh souchalaya!. He becomes a sudra when he destroys recklessly the public properties for whatever reason. An IT pro does not become a sudra serving a vaishya just because of his profession. He becomes a sudra when he burns his wife for not getting enough dowry for him. He becomes a sudra when he cheats people and while away his time and yet claims USD for the time thus wasted. Anything which is in conflict with the great things which have become the manifestation in him will deny him the status that he is a manifestation of those great things. When a Brahmin realizes this superiority he can really be confident about himself. There is nothing supremacist about this confidence.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

I do not get it...I thought you believed in a birth based or rather a gene based status for Varna.

But now from this post..it seems that you feel that a Birth Brahmin can become a Guna Shudra by the actions like :

1)Ruthless slaughters animals.

2)Kills a fellow human being.

3)Destroys public property

4)Burns his wife for dowry

5)When he cheats etc.


Ok now my question is how would this be even possible going by the theory of Sattva genes?

BTW if doing menial works does not translate as being Shudra....then what was the Varna system based on?

The Varna system as we all know was based on occupation mainly and not on criminal acts like you stated above.

 

[zebra16]

This post is addressed in general and not to Sri Nara particularly. Sri Nara's views are well known and I am not looking for any change in his perception.

Let us be honest about this, the only caste-based discrimination Brahmins of Tamilnadu faced in the last few decades is reservation system in educational institutions.

It is being disingenuous to say that honestly the only discrimination is reservation to educational institutions. Very astonishing indeed that the affront to the personal dignity of a class of persons by cutting off the tufts and pooNool etc. does not mean anything to the champions of the social equality. What is all the more perplexing is, they found the cause of hate and discrimination against the present day brahmins to be the supposed indignities meted out to the non brahmins by their forefathers.

Even in this case, the only true discrimination middle-class Brahmins with less than stellar grades faced was they were locked out of MBBS, that is all.

It is absurd to say the least, that a handful of non admission cases of a few resulted in disenchantment of the whole community. The discrimination was wide spread to be felt by most of the middle class brahmins. The dismissive tone that a few non-stellar brahmins did not get admission to MBBs is clearly no reason for other non-stellar NBs to get admission to MBBs.

Brahmins with decent enough grades get admission in all other fields all the time.

Sri Nara should use the same logic and should advise the NBs feeling discrimination at maTams to flock to other maTams because there have been other maTams all the time.

Present day Brahmins may protest they are innocent of any oppression and why must they face any caste-based discrimination at all, why must they be shut out of MBBS unless they have near perfect grades. Well, whether the Brahmins like it or not, the burden of righting historical injustice has to fall on somebody and it will have to fall on the descendents of the past oppressors.

The silliest argument ever. People should really have at least have a glance at the judicial system prevailing and how it has clearly moved away from thrusting guilt on a community or society or race. The act of vengence and retribution is eschewed upon and it is surprising one should resort to these emotional tactics while arguing and simultaneously exhorting others to be rational.

Perhaps Brahmins may see them bearing an unfair share of the burden, even so, this unfair share is not that bad relative to over thousand years of oppression, I don't have to list them, we know it all too well. Also, by and large, over these past several decades Brahmins have done quite well economically, not a big burden after all!!!

Reluctant and grudging acceptance that there may be a discrimination after all. But asking the brahmins not to mind the burden because they seem to be doing quite economically is the sum and substance of this para. What is on display is an attitute of "Does not matter if fairness is totally absent." Cant be called rational by any logic.

 

[sarang]

Well said sir. Perhaps it is ripe time to say with 'garvam' - we are brahmanas; satvik garvam is respected by many.

I have not faced any disrespect from any community all my life - from school student days to long working life both in india and abroad.

This post is addressed in general and not to Sri Nara particularly. Sri Nara's views are well known and I am not looking for any change in his perception.

It is being disingenuous to say that honestly the only discrimination is reservation to educational institutions. Very astonishing indeed that the affront to the personal dignity of a class of persons by cutting off the tufts and pooNool etc. does not mean anything to the champions of the social equality. What is all the more perplexing is, they found the cause of hate and discrimination against the present day brahmins to be the supposed indignities meted out to the non brahmins by their forefathers.

It is absurd to say the least, that a handful of non admission cases of a few resulted in disenchantment of the whole community. The discrimination was wide spread to be felt by most of the middle class brahmins. The dismissive tone that a few non-stellar brahmins did not get admission to MBBs is clearly no reason for other non-stellar NBs to get admission to MBBs.

Sri Nara should use the same logic and should advise the NBs feeling discrimination at maTams to flock to other maTams because there have been other maTams all the time.

The silliest argument ever. People should really have at least have a glance at the judicial system prevailing and how it has clearly moved away from thrusting guilt on a community or society or race. The act of vengence and retribution is eschewed upon and it is surprising one should resort to these emotional tactics while arguing and simultaneously exhorting others to be rational.

Reluctant and grudging acceptance that there may be a discrimination after all. But asking the brahmins not to mind the burden because they seem to be doing quite economically is the sum and substance of this para. What is on display is an attitute of "Does not matter if fairness is totally absent." Cant be called rational by any logic.

 

[renuka]

Well said sir. Perhaps it is ripe time to say with 'garvam' -.

Dear Sir,

By Garvam here do you mean Gauravam?

Can you kindly answer?

 

[sangom]

Post # 321,

Shri Zebra,

You have addressed the above post "in general" and hence I am writing my views.

The brahmins of Tamil Nadu, unlike their counterparts in the rest of the country, got a really bad (or should it be 'good'?) thrashing at the hands of the Dravida Kazhagam followers during the middle of the last century and, since then, the Kazhagams have captured political power in Tamil Nadu and since there seems to be no end coming to it anytime in the near future, the minuscule Tamil Nadu Brahmin community is, itself, like an endangered species.

Though your statement that "the judicial system prevailing and how it has clearly moved away from thrusting guilt on a community or society or race", may be very factual, I am of the view that the reservations enshrined in our constitution, display the combined pronouncement of the Constitutional Assembly to consciously favour certain groups and take away equal treatment rights from certain others and this was nothing but the Constituent Assembly's considered verdict to punish the latter groups as communities, races or castes. The only technical difference is that the Constituent Assembly was itself not named as "Court" but it was the "gangotri" of all our present day judiciary and the latter are singularly helpless or unconvinced about removing this reservation system, even for elected seats in Municipalities and gram panchayats. Hence, in reality, some of us are paying the fines for past actions of our forebears; the only saving grace has been that the Constitution itself does not explicitly say so (but the records of the proceedings of the Constituent Assembly clearly show).

My only submission is that the whole country is aware of all these developments and no other brahmin group in India seems to be so much exercised by whatever they have lost, nor preoccupied with any notions of grandeur, superiority, special genetic developments/alterations, and so on, as is found in this web forum named after Tamilbrahmins. Why don't we also, like the rest of the brahmins in India, let bygones be bygones, accept our weaknesses in the present political system of the country and concentrate more about our lives today and how to move on with the changing world? Can we not put a stop to all arguments/discussions about reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc? (If other castes of Tamil Nadu trumpet their greatness, may be they have the political clout and social unity within their respective castes which makes them strong enough to make such claims; but we do not have either of these and so is it not preferable to remain silent on such things?)

 

[amala]

Renu garvam in Tamil means pride.