Meritocracy and Quotas

[zebra16]

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Frits Staal and other historians such as Priyatosh Banerjee have dealt with the subject of creating elaborate yagnas -- this happened during the period of composition of the brahmanas (texts). That is, these rituals were created in kuru-panchala region during a specific period of time. They did not exist before that. The way rituals are performed do change with time. Once upon a time animals were sacrificed in yagnas, now they are not. Even simple rituals like punyahavachanam are not really constant, today any fruit readily available is used to represent the navagrahas.

Read Frits Staal carefully. He has traced the origins of the yajnas to prevedic period and has given a convincing reason for his conclusion.

You are also wrong regarding the composition of brahmanas. The brahmana texts are codification of the then existing rituals and inclusion of some philosophical insights howsoever primitive they may appear to be to us today . The rituals do not exist because of brahmana texts but it is the other way round. The seeds of aSwa medha yajna are in Rg veda (not according to me, but according to Witzel and Dumonte) which is much earlier to the kuru panchala times.

But I know you are not going to change your opinion so i leave it at that. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not accept it.

 

[kunjuppu]

Saibaba when he took his food (breakfast, lunch or dinner) he was rajasic predominently. When he slept in the night he was tamasic predominantly. When he gave lectures or met his devotees he was predominantly saatvik. Now what do you call saibaba? Was he a saatvik individual or a tamasic individual or a rajasic individual? The guna which is predominent determines one's personality. Dont you think so?

.

that's good. depending on the time of the day, one is satvic rajasic or tamasic. there is element of all 3 in each of us, and so it would be wrong to call anyone sativc person and such.

but i think many people here believe, that a person or caste, is wholly satvik or otherwise. what you say make sense, though may be unacceptable to many. after all, hitler too had satvik qualities - he was a vegetarian who loved animals. only jews and slavs, he hated.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear MrP raveen, I am Rishikesan posted a write-up addressed to your name. Please read the same & I sincerely feel if an initiative is taken it will not only help members who desire progress in our lot but also some Action Plan duly consulting persons in this forum & also persons known to you for serious consideration of a Full-fledged agenda . It is time we formulate important things & finalise with the persons with a consenses.

Sincerely,
Rishikesan
A. Srinivasan

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear MrP raveen, I am Rishikesan posted a write-up addressed to your name. Please read the same & I sincerely feel if an initiative is taken it will not only help members who desire progress in our lot but also some Action Plan duly consulting persons in this forum & also persons known to you for serious consideration of a Full-fledged agenda . It is time we formulate important things & finalise with the persons with a consenses.

Sincerely,
Rishikesan
A. Srinivasan

dear srini (can i call you srini please ?)

please post your thoughts here so that the public gets the benefit of the same. thank you.

i too am interested re 'formulate important things & finalise with the persons with a consenses'. cant wait to hear (or read i guess).

 

[palindrome]

Read Frits Staal carefully. He has traced the origins of the yajnas to prevedic period and has given a convincing reason for his conclusion.

Thanks for the advice. Yep, not only staal but keith, witzel and others also say fire rituals were performed in vedic period, however they were primitive rituals. Only during the period of composition of brahmanas (texts) they were developed and created in an elaborate way.

You are also wrong regarding the composition of brahmanas. The brahmana texts are codification of the then existing rituals and inclusion of some philosophical insights howsoever primitive they may appear to be to us today . The rituals do not exist because of brahmana texts but it is the other way round. The seeds of aSwa medha yajna are in Rg veda (not according to me, but according to Witzel and Dumonte) which is much earlier to the kuru panchala times.

proof please? may i know where witzel or dumonte say ashvamedha yagna existed prior to brahmanas period or prior to its development in the kuru-panchala region.

as for compositions and development of the brahmanas texts, we already dealt with it in this thread -
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philos...following-abrahamin-religious-practice-6.html; and in particular this post may help.

But I know you are not going to change your opinion so i leave it at that. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not accept it.

nobody asked you to accept it

 

[sangom]

Sufficient to represent a crowd. Just as a few hundred samples are sufficient to understand a few things about some things. Just as the behavior of a few here reflects upon the whole community. All informed readers know how this site functions.

What was prescribed for brahmins? Eating meat, fish, drinking soma, getting women as dakshina for sacrifices, What is austere about this? They performed some havans, got a cush life, ate, drank, lived well. Copying rituals of an ascetic does not make them one.

Palindrome,

I was going through these exchanges and came across the highlighted portion above. I agree that "scientifically statistical random sampling" will enable knowledgeable people to learn about the group as a whole. But here, in this forum, I don't think you are speaking to such a "random" sample. It is a group with a very particular agenda.

I don't think there is any point in your arguing with this select group here. There is a proverb in Malayalam which is "കഴുതയ്ക്ക് വേദം ഓതുക" (kaḻutaykk vedaṃ otuka = trying to make a donkey learn the veda/s). It is a very brahminic proverb, fit for this forum.

I suggest that you don't waste your time and energy in this kind of exercise.

 

[Vaagmi]

post #152 by Nara:

That is precisely the logic you are using here, Boyd showed genetic changes occurred in one group that developed lactose tolerance while the other group did not, and you take this ஆனைக்கு அர்ரம் and want to apply it to your pet theory that Brahmins have developed their own cultural-gene in குதிரைக்கு குர்ரம் fashion.

It may be your view. But I do not accept it. I think I am on solid ground when I speak about culture's impact on genes and this includes the brahmin culture's impact on genes of brahmins. I have many people who agree with me.

Nuclear fission analogy does not work here as it was not mere speculation before it was experimentally proven, there was solid mathematical proof. Citing Boyd's lactose tolerance study and concluding Brahmin culture is hard coded into their gene is unconscionable. This can only remain your pet theory. Prove it the way Boyd did. Until then, don't make grandiose claims.
thank you ....

Simple 1+1=2 is also a mathematical proof of a certain fact. It is not necessary that only complicated long winding equations and calculations make a mathematical proof. This is not my theory -pet or not. It is something which many people have accepted. They have agreed with me. The bottom line as well as the top line is that it makes eminent sense. Proof will come in course of time. If you want to wait till the proof comes along, wait. I have no problem. But do not trash what I say. Again you are trying to play to the audience by saying "Citing Boyd's lactose tolerance study and concluding Brahmin culture is hard coded into their gene is unconscionable". It is not citing lactose tolerance study, but more importantly about the finding of the study - that culture impinges on the gene and fundamentally alter it. If you had worded your argument with "Citing Boyd's finding that genes and culture were intertwined in shaping human evolution and concluding that brahmin culture is hard coded into their gene is unacceptable (unconscionable is a harsh accusation)" it would have been nearer to the truth and a more honest presentation of your counterparty's views. Well, you perhaps thought that people will believe what you say more if you twist the facts out of shape and play with language. And finally my claim is not a grandiose one. It is a plain statement of fact as it exists. If you do not want to recognize it I have no problem. If tomorrow some one comes up with a proof that Boyd was wrong in his conclusion that cultures impinges on genes and changes them, I will take it without any tantrums and revise my views too. That is science.Thanks.

 

[auh]

I agree that "scientifically statistical random sampling" will enable knowledgeable people to learn about the group as a whole. But here, in this forum, I don't think you are speaking to such a "random" sample. It is a group with a very particular agenda.

With all due respects, the original message in #67 which started the debate about sampling goes like this:

Really? Well (maybe you did not meet the ones i met, esp the northie ones, so we are both entitled to our opinions. since some folks are so self-absorbed, they cannot bother about public opinion, i suppose).

Can you please elaborate which part of this pertains to "scientifically statistical random sampling"?

In view of the above, I would like to know about how you came to the conclusion that there are people with agenda. To me it seems that you have come to a half baked conclusion merely based on a sentence without understanding the underlying context. It seems, sir, that you may be harbouring some agenda after all !

I don't think there is any point in your arguing with this select group here. There is a proverb in Malayalam which is "കഴുതയ്ക്ക് വേദം ഓതുക" (kaḻutaykk vedaṃ otuka = trying to make a donkey learn the veda/s). It is a very brahminic proverb, fit for this forum.

Pardon me for my tanglish, but your behaviour seems to be typical of "ooraan veetu nei (ghee), en pondaati kai". It is so easy to make a scapegoat out of a brahmin that even a vagrant can comment flippantly and get away with it.

I suggest that you don't waste your time and energy in this kind of exercise.

This might perhaps be good advice but not in the context you meant.

Regards,

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome,

I was going through these exchanges and came across the highlighted portion above. I agree that "scientifically statistical random sampling" will enable knowledgeable people to learn about the group as a whole. But here, in this forum, I don't think you are speaking to such a "random" sample. It is a group with a very particular agenda.

I don't think there is any point in your arguing with this select group here. There is a proverb in Malayalam which is "കഴുതയ്ക്ക് വേദം ഓതുക" (kaḻutaykk vedaṃ otuka = trying to make a donkey learn the veda/s). It is a very brahminic proverb, fit for this forum.

I suggest that you don't waste your time and energy in this kind of exercise.

I understand sir. Its been ages since i went losing my religion, met all kinds of arguments, all kinds of people all along, used to it by now, so well...life goes on.
R.E.M.-Losing My Religion(With Lyrics) *in the description box* - YouTube

 

[SANDHYAV]

reverting back to the topic!

reservations are a must. simple example u go to a General Hospital u will see farmers, sc, st, bc, mbc, brahmins etc. if there is no system to ensure a similar mix amongst employees in a hospital, there will be no care delivered.

 

[palindrome]

true meritocracy is
*when there is no reservation whatsoever. either in academic intitutions or in religion.
*where any individual develops his/her own potential based on inherent interests, proclivities and ability
*where varna is what ishvara-krishna conceptualized in bhagavad gita, not the system of dharmashastras

unfortunately as long as birth-based reservations exist in religion, we are bound to see reservations in secular education stay...

 

[prasad1]

true meritocracy is
*when there is no reservation whatsoever. either in academic intitutions or in religion.
*where any individual develops his/her own potential based on inherent interests, proclivities and ability
*where varna is what ishvara-krishna conceptualized in bhagavad gita, not the system of dharmashastras

unfortunately as long as birth-based reservations exist in religion, we are bound to see reservations in secular education stay...

I agree with the statement in general.
The last sentence is not true. Religion is a choice, particularly Hinduism gives so many options, and intelligence. If one does not like Hinduism because of their ignorance or greed they would opt for other religions.

 

[palindrome]

I agree with the statement in general.
The last sentence is not true. Religion is a choice, particularly Hinduism gives so many options, and intelligence. If one does not like Hinduism because of their ignorance or greed they would opt for other religions.

Religion at the grassroots results in a society of a certain type. I'd say stay in your own religion (for whatever it represents today) and clean it from within. There are too many pretenders who have somehow enforced a birth-based system. It will take time to clear the cobwebs they somehow try to keep intact.

 

[renuka]

Please tell me what do you have to say about saibaba. Selective amnesia is extremely dangerous.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

You are one of the most predictable persons I have ever "known"!LOL

In fact I was waiting for this question from you..you have used Sai Baba all of sudden in this debate when the OP is not even about Sai Baba and the whole discussion is about the Sattva Gene theory proposed by you which you somehow have lost memory about.

Ok now my answer to you..You remember the story you said about the train encounter you had with the short stature man who was intoxicated with alcohol who challenged you for a "fight"?

Before that I chose to use the word Short Stature which sounds more polite than the original word "Dwarf" used in your post.
So kindly excuse the substitution of words here.

Ok now back to the story..I learnt from you that it is not worth it actually getting into a brawl with a person who is just hoping for some '"fight" to prove some point or in this case to prove some "unproven" theory.

So in this case Vaagmi Ji..too bad yaar....you are the "short stature" man here intoxicated with a "theory" that has no basis.

At least that guy you met in the train was only intoxicated with alcohol which when metabolized by the liver ceases to have an effect anymore.

BTW if you want to know about Sai Baba kindly visit Sai Thread and you will have all your answers.

 

[Nara]

.....It may be your view. But I do not accept it. I think I am on solid ground when I speak about culture's impact on genes and this includes the brahmin culture's impact on genes of brahmins. I have many people who agree with me.

Is Boyd one of them? Many people agree with you, and therefore you are on solid grounds, nice (il)logic.

If you had worded your argument with "Citing Boyd's finding that genes and culture were intertwined in shaping human evolution and concluding that brahmin culture is hard coded into their gene is unacceptable (unconscionable is a harsh accusation)" it would have been nearer to the truth and a more honest presentation of your counterparty's views.

Of course you would word it that way, as sympathetic to your POV as possible. But the fact is, you are twisting Boyd out of shape and that is unconscionable to put it mildly.

You claim a Brahmin cultural gene that embodies such things as vegetarianism, intelligence, honesty, etc. To make such a claim you have to do two things, (i) Brahmins in general do have these characteristics, and (ii) isolate the gene sequence that is exclusive to Brahmins and one that switches on these characteristics. This is what Boyd did, he showed lactose tolerance among a homogeneous population of cattle herders, and he isolated the gene sequence that was responsible for it. In the absence of such painstaking research any claim of Brahmin cultural gene being responsible for asserted characteristics such as natural inclination to vegetarianism, honesty, intelligence, but not established through verifiable data, is at best supremacist and at worst Nazi-like.

That is science.Thanks.

Yea, that is science as much as astrology is science.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

You had asked why should there be sattva qualities? Being sattvic signifies that you have moved on to appreciating and practising the finer aspects. You have learnt to be refined. The world needs these people for a balance just as it needs the rajassic people for balance.

 

[tks]

There seem to be a lot of 'குதிரை output' of late and hard to keep up with my limited Quadrant 4 time LoL
Is there anyone who can summarize what the argument is about?

Suppose a Jewish person says 'jews are the chosen people by God' so what?

Suppose a born again Christian says we are all destined to go to hell, so what?

Suppose there is a gene that promotes gentle reaction to situations and that today's Brahmins are endowed with that - so what? How does one process this information regardless of the existence of such a gene?

What is the debate about?

 

[tks]

Dear Renuka,

You had asked why should there be sattva qualities? Being sattvic signifies that you have moved on to appreciating and practising the finer aspects. You have learnt to be refined. The world needs these people for a balance just as it needs the rajassic people for balance.

Signifies to who? who cares?? world is balanced already - it does not need any re-balancing

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

You had asked why should there be sattva qualities? Being sattvic signifies that you have moved on to appreciating and practising the finer aspects. You have learnt to be refined. The world needs these people for a balance just as it needs the rajassic people for balance.

Dear Sravna,

I wonder if you are referring to the post I wrote in a lighthearted manner about "why would anyone want to be Sattva".It was just a fun filled post.

But I did not ask that why should there be Sattva qualities?

Ok now coming to hardcore Guna discussion..if you go through my post where I had asked about fitting the Sattva Gene theory into the process of Panchikarana...that itself would be evident that I do believe in the Trigunas as in Sattva Rajas and Tamas and its influence in the creation of gross bodies and subtle and causal bodies.

It is just that the whole gene factor just seems totally out of this world for now cos I wonder if we can actually isolate a Guna effect on a gene.

Guna is subtle and DNA is gross.

I am sure you are well aware that we humans have yet to detect the subtle body/causal body/atma is the real sense.

I wonder if it is actually possible cos the invention has to be a gross instrument and can a gross instrument actually pick up a subtle object?

So for now all I can say that the Gunas have a pre determined proportions on the gross body,karmendriyas and jnanendriyas for creation to even happen per Panchikaranam Vedantic Theory..anything titling the scale to either side will not create anything compatible for life to even exists.

So Sravna..when the proportions themselves are pre determined before creation or in this case conception of human life..any feeling that a certain Guna is.. Refined..Pure..inclined to Intelligence and only certain individual posses this..remains just an altered state of mind..having an altered state of mind is fine as long it remains in the confines of the person who believes so without infecting others.

The only problem is when this altered state of mind becomes a delusion we might see likes of Hitler.

 

[sravna]

Signifies to who? who cares?? world is balanced already - it does not need any re-balancing

I do not want to argue with you on how the world balances itself but my point is that if the world is bereft of people with noble qualities sooner or later it will lead to the destruction of the world

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,
exists.

So Sravna..when the proportions themselves are pre determined before creation or in this case conception of human life..any feeling that a certain Guna is.. Refined..Pure..inclined to Intelligence and only certain individual posses this..remains just an altered state of mind..having an altered state if mind is fine as long it remains in the confines of the person who believes so..

The only problem is when this altered state of mind becomes a delusion we might see likes of Hitler.

Dear Renuka,

I see nothing wrong in saying that sattva guna reresents refinement. Do not the scriptures say that? Also saying some people possess such wrong is also not wrong. Do not some people possess such qualities? But what you cannot say is that all the brahmins today possess such qualities . That I deinitely accept.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I see nothing wrong in saying that sattva guna reresents refinement. Do not the scriptures say that? Also saying some people possess such wrong is also not wrong. Do not some people possess such qualities? But what you cannot say is that all the brahmins today possess such qualities . That I deinitely accept.

Dear Sravna,

I feel the better terminology to be used is a Svabhava...then it will not involve any gene theory here cos Bhava is technically an " innate feeling".

Sattva means Pure literally.

So Sattva Svabhava means Pure Innate Feeling.

Scriptures do say that Sattva Svabhava is also seen in animals besides humans.

I have no problems with anyone possessing any Svabhava and I surely would not want to drag caste in that too..so even if all Brahmins have Sattva Svabhava that is fine with me.

I am not really identifying anyone by caste..my discussion is whatever said and done Sattva Svabhava remains a state of mind and not an isolated genetic sequence.

I hope you understand the point I am trying to convey.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I feel the better terminology to be used is a Svabhava...then it will not involve any gene theory here cos Bhava is technically an " innate feeling".

Sattva means Pure literally.

So Sattva Svabhava means Pure Innate Feeling.

Scriptures do say that Sattva Svabhava is also seen in animals besides humans.

I have no problems with anyone possessing any Svabhava and I surely would not want to drag caste in that too..so even if all Brahmins have Sattva Svabhava that is fine with me.

I am not really identifying anyone by caste..my discussion is whatever said and done Sattva Svabhava remains a state of mind and not an isolated genetic sequence.

I hope you understand the point I am trying to convey.

Dear Renuka,

Yes indeed it is a state of mind. But to me the real problem is how many people are willing to be in that state of mind? Only a few people choose to be in that pure state of mind. That at least a few people are in that state of mind is important. Even if the sattvic nature of brahmins is a myth my point is that we need such qualities to be present in the world.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Yes indeed it is a state of mind. But to me the real problem is how many people are willing to be in that state of mind? Only a few people choose to be in that pure state of mind. That at least a few people are in that state of mind is important. Even if the sattvic nature of brahmins is a myth my point is that we need such qualities to be present in the world.

Dear Sravna,

When you use words like "how many people are willing to be in that state of mind? Only a few people choose to be in that pure state of mind"..it sounds as if a Sattva state of mind is something that needs to be chosen and put on.

Doesn't that make it like a garment worn by us just covering our body?


I am talking about Svabhava here which is from within and not "chosen".

If one has to choose to remain Sattva or be Sattva that is just being pretentious in my opinion.

Dear Sravna BTW I hope in discussions with me you could kindly refrain from talking about caste becos from what I can gather about you....I feel that you have thoughts that are less mundane and more "Advaitic"... not caste based ....so I feel that mentioning that "Even if the sattvic nature of brahmins is a myth" line was not really necessary.

Lets just discuss about facts without the need to spice it with caste tags here.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

When you use words like "how many people are willing to be in that state of mind? Only a few people choose to be in that pure state of mind"..it sounds as if a Sattva state of mind is something that needs to be chosen and put on.

Doesn't that make it like a garment worn by us just covering our body?


I am talking about Svabhava here which is from within and not "chosen".

If one has to choose to remain Sattva or be Sattva that is just being pretentious in my opinion.

Dear Sravna BTW I hope in discussions with me you could kindly refrain from talking about caste becos from what I can gather about you....I feel that you have thoughts that are less mundane and more "Advaitic"... not caste based ....so I feel that mentioning that "Even if the sattvic nature of brahmins is a myth" line was not really necessary.

Lets just discuss about facts without the need to spice it with caste tags here.

Dear Renuka,

I was using your line of reasoning that qualities such as sattva nature is not inherited. If you ask me it doesn't matter whether they are inherited or not. If one can acquire such qualities why not? Even intelligence it is said is not totally inherited . So I am not saying that you be pretentious but only that you make a sincere effort to acquire them. But I am also concvinced that not many people will take that effort because their nature is overwhelmingly against making the effort.