My Shirdi trip- some thoughts and questions

[zebra16]

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Post #36 for reference.

In the case of atheists, I think that there is no "God" agent to instill a fear or reverence, or to coerce the mind to adhere to certain principles. The fear of hell, or the desire of heaven, has been the most successful technique to bring about an order in society; to adhere to societal norms which the majority decides.

The rational atheist first and foremost should coin a nomenclature for himself and or his group. The very term "atheist" indicates his grouping is because of the existence of the original group called "theists". So the existence of his group is dependent upon the other group!!

The perception that an atheist is likely to be immoral stems from the fact that he is answerable to no higher agent.

The perception has historical beginnings. The original "moral" values were codified in religious scriptures and not in some atheist literature. An atheist who talks about moral values should be honest enough to admit that he picked up a few items of the vast theist literature which appealed to him and he feels that there is "some value" in what he picked up.

I think it takes a lot of courage and conviction to take the stand of an atheist; not to be swayed by the vicious whirls of life to ascribe to a higher power but to face the consequences head on.

I do not see any logical reasoning for this thought. It does not take any extra courage or conviction to aver or deny a higher power or to face the consequences "head on". A cowardly theist and a courageous atheist both will break their limbs if they choose to jump off the cliff, existence or non-existence of God or a Higher power notwithstanding.

This extra courage and/or conviction is a "gimmick" incorporated by "Atheists' Universal" to make them believe them that they are a unique lot and the atheists stand on a high pedestal vis-a-viz theists and is a morale booster. Nothing more.

One would have had to reflect deeply on the usefulness (or uselessness) of religion and its impact on day to day life before brushing away theological thoughts.

Do not agree that theists do not have to reflect deeply on the usefulness or uselessness of religion and its impact in life.
The very fact that rituals gave way to upaniSad teachings and to meditation and contemplation is a proof of the fact that theists also did introspect deeply.

Hence I see an atheist as a thinking person, a rational one, who is bound by the strength of relationships built around him.

To assume that all atheists are thinking persons and rational ones is to be presumptuous to say the least. There are no empirical records to aver one way or the other.

I hope you also do not mean the corollary that theists are ab initio non-thinking persons or irrational ones because they are theists.

It is not as if only irreligious ones are prone to criminal tendencies and religious ones are the purest souls out there. Hence we cannot generalize.

I wish you had brought out the same thing when a few posters repeatedly over generalised ad nauseum to cynically target theists or religious heads or some Godmen or some Babas because a few of the theists or Godmen or Babas did not live upto the reputation.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Sir,
Per Hinduism, a samadhi has divine powers only if the saint consciously opted for "jeeva samadhi". The Shirdi godman passed away from kidney failure. It truly baffles me as to how an itinerant person who survived on alms is now a revered "God". The mosque in Shirdi is now called "dwarakamayi", the godman simply used to call it 'masjid'. There is even a neem tree which is now the 'temple tree'. It was like a spiritual overload for me and I could see an amalgam of Hinduism+commerce+vested interests+corruption evolving.



I am not anti-religion, but the path taken by Hinduism is not really the best one.

Shirdi Saibaba is considered a GOD just like many of the Nath/Siddhas. Maharashtra is home to a particular branch of the Nath movement. Here even a non-hindu non-Indian can be considered a GOD by the Hindus. Bogar the Siddhar who established the Palani tempe was a Chinese and as not a born Hindu.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogar



Of course they have rewritten the history to say that Bogar as born in South India.


So the worship of Shirdi Sai Baba as GOD is not against the tenets of Hinduism. A number of samadhis of Siddhas have come up in Tamil Nadu in recent years. Peope do worship there.


I visited Shirdi ony once way back in 1968. A dusty little village with no accomodation for staying. We stayed in the guest house of the Sugar mills nearby.


About commrcialization, you can not single out Shirdi. Tirupathi was one of the first to do it. Other temples have followed suit. I read a research article long back about how Bratrhari took the Gupta kings to task for selling golden statues of gods/goddesses.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sir,

I have a feeling you might be in for a (not so) pleasant surprise when you visit Shirdi now. The auto drivers first fleece you (Rs 100-odd for 3 kms) and then try to dump you in a hotel of their choice (they tried convincing me the trust no longer manages accommodation, but I didn't fall for it). I booked a "VVIP" room in a building belonging to the Shirdi trust (I don't know why they give such bombastic names to rooms) and the room was very large and had two mosquito repellent mats. There was an LED TV with n no. of channels. The room also had a helpful map to the Shirdi water and amusement park (apparently it draws more crowds than the temple) so you can have 'fun' after 'darshan'.

Darshan is much like Tirumala, normal, special, super super special et al. Gates 1 and 2 are for 'people', and Gate 3 is for 'paying people'. Needless, Gate 3 is extremely clean and orderly. Just before the night arati, they cage you in a room for like 30-60 mins. They suddenly remove the barriers, and all hell breaks loose. People jostle, push, and trample each other to stand closest to the 'samadhi'. All rituals in the Samadhi are performed by brahmins according to Vedic traditions. The priests work in two shifts, and are from the Tryambakeshwar veda patasala. A huge rudraksha is placed on top of the samadhi (where the godman was buried per islamic traditions), and it is flanked by a huge marble statue of the godman (which also has a rudraksha).

Per Hinduism, a samadhi has divine powers only if the saint consciously opted for "jeeva samadhi". The Shirdi godman passed away from kidney failure. It truly baffles me as to how an itinerant person who survived on alms is now a revered "God". The mosque in Shirdi is now called "dwarakamayi", the godman simply used to call it 'masjid'. There is even a neem tree which is now the 'temple tree'. It was like a spiritual overload for me and I could see an amalgam of Hinduism+commerce+vested interests+corruption evolving.

Somehow, I feel people can have real time 'darshan' of Shirdi on their 3D LED TVs, some TVs now have a technology which allows you to touch and 'feel' what you see on the TV.

I am not anti-religion, but the path taken by Hinduism is not really the best one.

Dear Ashwin,

Luckily, I have not gone to Shirdi so far and it is next to impossible that I go there in the remaining period for me here.

I fully agree (and personally detest to the highest degree) the custom/practice/trick of the hindus to start worshipping like a godhead, dead personalities. I do not think there is anything in our scriptures to support such a practice, nor for building 'brindaavanams', samaadhis, etc., for 'saints' who reportedly took jeeva samaadhi (what is this? No such term is used even by Patanjali and one just cannot have any jeeva samaadhi! unless the disciples inter the guru before death after breaking a coconut on his skull and thus killing him!)

But, most of the so-called religious pilgrimage centers are like this only. Wise people should avoid expecting any religion in such places and go for only the fun & amusements, if any.

I agree hinduism degrades itself in these ways.

 

[sarang]

Sanatana dharma is not a religion. It is tree with many branches with sweet and not so sweet fruits. One can coexist without harming other living beings in the tree or take off in pursuit of another abode.

I am not anti-religion, but the path taken by Hinduism is not really the best one.

 

[auh]

The rational atheist first and foremost should coin a nomenclature for himself and or his group. The very term "atheist" indicates his grouping is because of the existence of the original group called "theists". So the existence of his group is dependent upon the other group!!

I dont agree with the highlighted as it is not a valid conclusion. We can only say that the name "atheist" is derived from (so as to infer the meaning "opposed to") the word "theist". We cannot extend this to mean that should there be no theists, there would be no atheists !

If you didn't mean that, then I have no argument with names...

The perception has historical beginnings. The original "moral" values were codified in religious scriptures and not in some atheist literature. An atheist who talks about moral values should be honest enough to admit that he picked up a few items of the vast theist literature which appealed to him and he feels that there is "some value" in what he picked up.

But we now know that any "values" need not have any religious sanctity. I dont understand what such an "admission" would seek to achieve except to gratify the ego of the theists.

I do not see any logical reasoning for this thought. It does not take any extra courage or conviction to aver or deny a higher power or to face the consequences "head on". A cowardly theist and a courageous atheist both will break their limbs if they choose to jump off the cliff, existence or non-existence of God or a Higher power notwithstanding.

Most people resort to fate/destiny (one of the effects of religion) when faced with unsurmountable odds, and the society itself, over a period of time, attunes itself to such a thought and the mentality changes. A "resigned" attitude creeps in which I think is detrimental, not only to the society, but to the self as well.

To shake off this languorous mindset, one definitely needs to have something extra, a cut above the ordinary.

Well, there you have your reasoning...

Do not agree that theists do not have to reflect deeply on the usefulness or uselessness of religion and its impact in life.
The very fact that rituals gave way to upaniSad teachings and to meditation and contemplation is a proof of the fact that theists also did introspect deeply.

I never meant that atheists only reflect deeply... and that theists dont...

To assume that all atheists are thinking persons and rational ones is to be presumptuous to say the least. There are no empirical records to aver one way or the other.

You are now stretching this beyond the substance meant in my words.

For example the definition of the word "mango" means:

man·go (m

ng

g

)n. pl. man·goes or man·gos 1. a. A tropical Asian evergreen tree (Mangifera indica) cultivated for its edible fruit.

b. The ovoid fruit of this tree, having a smooth rind, sweet juicy flesh, and a flat one-seeded stone. It is eaten ripe or pickled when green.



One can (logically) argue that not all ripe mangoes are sweet and so on, but that does not change the basic definition of a mango.

My statement was to highlight the stand of an atheist in the middle of theists.

I hope you also do not mean the corollary that theists are ab initio non-thinking persons or irrational ones because they are theists.

Well, actually I did not mean it, but now that you asked the question, there might be a doubt on their rationality... since the belief of the theists cannot be proved by logic. Oh yes, they certainly thought, or how else would we have got the delightful concoction of the puranas, epics etc.

I wish you had brought out the same thing when a few posters repeatedly over generalised ad nauseum to cynically target theists or religious heads or some Godmen or some Babas because a few of the theists or Godmen or Babas did not live upto the reputation.

I am no spokesperson for godmen or babas, and neither for religious heads, but I did express my views where I considered appropriate.

Regards,

 

[sarang]

Following the famous humourist who wrote - germans travel abroad to tourist spots to verify whether what the guide book said is true or not, the british to tell their friends and relatives that we had been there and the americans to meet and chat with their neighbours, shall we say, atheists visit temples and holy spots to confirm for themselves that there is no god!

There is no place for theists to visit and say - yes, there is no god here and the guide book is right.

 

[kunjuppu]

The rational atheist first and foremost should coin a nomenclature for himself and or his group. The very term "atheist" indicates his grouping is because of the existence of the original group called "theists". So the existence of his group is dependent upon the other group!!

any similar suggestions for the irrational atheist? thanks

 

[Nara]

.....To shake off this languorous mindset, one definitely needs to have something extra, a cut above the ordinary.,

Wow, I was not languorous, I googled the word and found out what it means .... but now I have to figure out a mnemonic to remember the word ....

 

[kunjuppu]

Wow, I was not languorous, I googled the word and found out what it means .... but now I have to figure out a mnemonic to remember the word ....

how about something related to food like langar...

 

[ashwin_ash]

Latest fall of a godman

how about something related to food like langar...

Reportedly, asaram 'bapu's' son has confessed to molesting a woman, and has also said his father is also not so pure. People who worship human-gods, do they care to verify the antecedents?

 

[sangom]

Reportedly, asaram 'bapu's' son has confessed to molesting a woman, and has also said his father is also not so pure. People who worship human-gods, do they care to verify the antecedents?

I have come to consider almost all the sadhus, sanyasis, gurujis, godmen, godwomen, -aanandas, etc., as frauds. They are all good examples of the "udaranimittham bahukritavesham" adage in one slokam.

 

[prasad1]

Who is not a fraud? In life none of us have been honest all the time. So one fraud is pointing finger at another, remember that there are three fingers pointing back at you.
Maybe you know the saying, "When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." Jesus had a version of this wisdom when he said, "Don't focus on the speck in your brother's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye." When cruel accusations fly, we all need to hear the voice of reason that says, "Look in the mirror, sister. You might just be talking about yourself."
Three Fingers Pointing Back to You | Psychology Today

 

[sangom]

View attachment 3236

Who is not a fraud? In life none of us have been honest all the time. So one fraud is pointing finger at another, remember that there are three fingers pointing back at you.
Maybe you know the saying, "When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." Jesus had a version of this wisdom when he said, "Don't focus on the speck in your brother's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye." When cruel accusations fly, we all need to hear the voice of reason that says, "Look in the mirror, sister. You might just be talking about yourself."
Three Fingers Pointing Back to You | Psychology Today

Second coming of Jesus!!

 

[kunjuppu]

Second coming of Jesus!!

when?

 

[Nara]

when?

But first, who?

 

[biswa]

Why?

Is the world about to end?

 

[mkrishna100]

I have come to consider almost all the sadhus, sanyasis, gurujis, godmen, godwomen, -aanandas, etc., as frauds. They are all good examples of the "udaranimittham bahukritavesham" adage in one slokam.

Where do people like Tarun Tejpal , Justice Ganguly etc fit in ? This seems to be the new tip of another iceberg .

 

[ashwin_ash]

Where do people like Tarun Tejpal , Justice Ganguly etc fit in ? This seems to be the new tip of another iceberg .

Reportedly, SSB used to enjoy the company of "nautch" girls (devadasis) and they used to dance for him. How does this gel with the current image of SSB as a pious saint who brought succour and happiness to billions?

He reportedly said his bones will speak from his tomb. Bones are made of calcium and phosphorus and disintegrate into dust after some years. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only thing dust causes is an allergy and sinus problems.

 

[tks]

Reportedly, SSB used to enjoy the company of "nautch" girls (devadasis) and they used to dance for him. How does this gel with the current image of SSB as a pious saint who brought succour and happiness to billions?

He reportedly said his bones will speak from his tomb. Bones are made of calcium and phosphorus and disintegrate into dust after some years. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only thing dust causes is an allergy and sinus problems.

Why do YOU care? Why mock whatever someone believes..

Someone said something that some people may find it useful and made that someone as a God-man. Let those people spend their resources and time for whatever they feel they can get- it need not bother you if you are not one of those people deriving anything.

Atheism and theism are at the same level of ignorance and are two sides of the same coin .. both have no basis and so atheist need not feel pride for being logical !

 

[ashwin_ash]

Armchair fanatics..

Why do YOU care? Why mock whatever someone believes..

Someone said something that some people may find it useful and made that someone as a God-man. Let those people spend their resources and time for whatever they feel they can get- it need not bother you if you are not one of those people deriving anything.

Atheism and theism are at the same level of ignorance and are two sides of the same coin .. both have no basis and so atheist need not feel pride for being logical !

Sigh..another SSB fanatic from the US of A. Not that I am not from the US of A, but India is equally my home and I make it a point to visit as many places in India as possible. I do not always sit in a heated living room in the US and get my feathers ruffled over something happening in India, without actually seeing what's happening.

Whenever I make an observation, I verify facts, and see things for myself if possible.. armchair fanatics are the worst possible kind. They know nothing, they pretend to know everything..​

 

[auh]

P.C.Sorcar Jr had challenged the godman ...

Over a decade ago, the magician PC Sorcar was refused entry into Sai Baba’s presence. He went under a false name and when the Baba miraculously produced a sandesh, Sorcar returned the compliment by miraculously producing a rasgulla. The Baba began shouting and Sorcar was physically evicted from the ashram.
The magician wrote about the encounter in Sunday magazine. But since then, he has come under so much pressure from the Sai Baba lobby that he’s reluctant to repeat the experience. No matter. There are enough people who can do the same tricks. Sanal Edamaraku of the Indian Rationalist Association, who does not even claim to be a magician, will cheerfully reproduce any of the old boy’s ‘miracles’ on demand.

Truth about Sathya Sai Baba - Hindustan Times

 

[tks]

Sigh..another SSB fanatic from the US of A. Not that I am not from the US of A, but India is equally my home and I make it a point to visit as many places in India as possible. I do not always sit in a heated living room in the US and get my feathers ruffled over something happening in India, without actually seeing what's happening.

Whenever I make an observation, I verify facts, and see things for myself if possible.. armchair fanatics are the worst possible kind. They know nothing, they pretend to know everything..​

Please watch your posts .. I did not call you names.
I asked you why you care in pointing out negative information (it is irrelevant what is true or not, since it is not your business) about someone that millions of people hold in high regard.

You claim to see things for yourself and yet you conclude I must be a fanatic of SSB - that is not very logical.

USof A is irrelevant to the discussion.

My feathers are not ruffled - that is your conclusion based on no facts. Again my question was towards lack of sensitivity towards people who are believers of a historical person.

I think the moderator specifically told you not to say disparaging things about a specific figure. Adding SSB fanatic is an insult to all those believers.

Contrary to your conclusion I am neither a devotee of SSB nor a critique - so please think before you post.

 

[renuka]

Reportedly, SSB used to enjoy the company of "nautch" girls (devadasis) and they used to dance for him. How does this gel with the current image of SSB as a pious saint who brought succour and happiness to billions?

Dear Ashwin,

Have you seen the movie Shridi Ke Sai Baba?

There is a scene there where a Nautch girl is sent to dance for Shiridi Baba as to seduce Him but Shiridi Baba reminds her of her true self as a pure Atma..then the girl gets transformed and leaves her job as a Nautchwali and devotes her life to Baba.

Like wise even Jesus and Lord Buddha had only seen goodness in so called fallen woman...even Swami Vivekananda got reminded of Advaita from a song a courtesan sang.

I am writing this just to give you a clearer picture and I leave it to you to form your opinion as to reject or accept this explanation.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Please watch your posts .. I did not call you names.
I asked you why you care in pointing out negative information (it is irrelevant what is true or not, since it is not your business) about someone that millions of people hold in high regard.

You claim to see things for yourself and yet you conclude I must be a fanatic of SSB - that is not very logical.

USof A is irrelevant to the discussion.

My feathers are not ruffled - that is your conclusion based on no facts. Again my question was towards lack of sensitivity towards people who are believers of a historical person.

I think the moderator specifically told you not to say disparaging things about a specific figure. Adding SSB fanatic is an insult to all those believers.

Contrary to your conclusion I am neither a devotee of SSB nor a critique - so please think before you post.

Sir,

I apologize since you seem rather upset now. It is rather funny that you're not a devotee yet you seem to defend the true devotees with a never-before seen vengeance. It is also funny that you say the truth is irrelevant just because people hold a person in high regard.

Seems there's no place for rational discussions in any fora nowadays. Fanaticism rules. Sad.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Ashwin,

Have you seen the movie Shridi Ke Sai Baba?

There is a scene there where a Nautch girl is sent to dance for Shiridi Baba as to seduce Him but Shiridi Baba reminds her of her true self as a pure Atma..then the girl gets transformed and leaves her job as a Nautchwali and devotes her life to Baba.

Like wise even Jesus and Lord Buddha had only seen goodness in so called fallen woman...even Swami Vivekananda got reminded of Advaita from a song a courtesan sang.

I am writing this just to give you a clearer picture and I leave it to you to form your opinion as to reject or accept this explanation.

Whether it is Chennai Express or Godmen, Bollywood rulez lol !!