My Shirdi trip- some thoughts and questions

[tks]

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Religious people belonging to all religion loath to admit theirs is merely a faith, they bend over backwards to claim their religion does not demand unquestioning faith, and not only that, their own religion encourages critical thinking and questioning. Google the terms "critical questioning" concatenated with the religion you want to find out about. As a kind of short hand, look for a religious person claiming his religion is uniquely rational and encourages critical questioning, and that should set the alarm off for you to be skeptical of these claims. Further, without fail, ask them any truly difficult question and without fail all of them will insist you can see the answer only if you have proper commitment and determination to see the proper answers.

And then this tolerance, Muslims and Christians at least try to convert you, they think, in their own warped way, everybody has the right to the "good word". But Hindus have disdain for others, not tolerance -- tolerance involves respect.....

Let us separate how a religion is practiced by some from its foundation.

My statement is about the foundation of a religion.

1. *All* teachings are presented only as conversations (Q&A). Now you have to go beyond Google to study how critical questions are asked and answered by going to the *source*
2. Hindus worship using many forms - therefore they have no problem accepting (not just tolerating) someone using another form - there is no exclusivity in this approach.

All your statements come across as your own opinion so I have no comments..

 

[Nara]

1. *All* teachings are presented only as conversations (Q&A). Now you have to go beyond Google to study how critical questions are asked and answered by going to the *source*

This is obviously false. Vedantam proclaims three paramount texts and they are called prastana thraiyam.

(i) Vedas -- (a) the entirety of poorva mimamsa is not Q/A type, it is full of fanciful stories, rituals, the purported benefits of these rituals, and elaborate rules for conducting these rituals -- no Q/A here and it is a fact, not my opinion; and (b) only parts of uttara mimamsa, i.e upanishads, are formatted in the Q/A conversation type. Of the rest, some start nominally with a question to be followed by an one-way lecture of doctrine, and the remaining are just fanciful but confident narrations of whatever they assert as final and ultimate truth.

(ii) Brahmma Sutra -- a cryptic set of statements called sutras, nothing Q/A about them. Many smart people have been arguing for millenia about what they mean and have come to conclusions that cannot be more opposed. There is no Q/A here, and that is a fact.

(iii) Bhagavat Geeta is nominally Q/A in the sense Arjuna asks a few questions here and there, but it is essentially a one-way preaching of doctrine to a child-like arjuna, who is overawed by it all and says so himself on occasion.

So, the fact is, the most important texts upon which the various religions that fall under the rubric Vedantam are built, are in the most part not Q/A and the parts that are Q/A type are hardly significant to make the above sweeping claim that all, bracketed by asterisks, teachings are Q/A conversations. What I have stated in support are facts, not my opinion.

However, the larger point is, it does not logically follow that even if the so called teachings are presented in a Q/A conversation format that critical questioning of the doctrine is encouraged or even allowed. tks himself has repeatedly asserted that if one is unsatisfied with the answers provided, then, one must not think the answers are unsatisfactory, we must conclude that the questioner lacks commitment and/or effort, namely shraddha. This is not indicative of encouraging critical questioning, just the opposite of it.

Further, it is also an irrefutable fact that just as tks falsely asserts his religion encourages critical questioning, the tks's of other religions make the exact same claim, falsely of course. This is not my opinion, it is verifiable fact.

So, in summary, there is no fact to backup the assertion that the Vedantic religions allow critical questioning, let alone encourage it. Please note, none of what I have stated to make this summary statement is my opinion to be swept aside, these are facts.

2. Hindus worship using many forms - therefore they have no problem accepting (not just tolerating) someone using another form - there is no exclusivity in this approach.

Surely you realize this is just your opinion. Just because Hindus worship a myriad of gods and in myriad of forms does not mean they have a respectful tolerance of other religions, far from it. I know for a fact that the Jeeyar of Ahobila Matam was severely criticized for just meeting with Shankarachariyar -- one who has clean shaved his head and cut off his poonal. This is not a mark of tolerance, but the opposite. Not that the Shankaracharyas fair well, they have no tolerance for fellow Hindus of lower castes, let alone other religions.

All your statements come across as your own opinion so I have no comments..

Of course, I cannot expect anyone to comment on my opinions. I understand that. However, the point here is not my opinion, but it is about claims made that are contrary to facts.

Thanks ....

 

[tks]

This is obviously false. Vedantam proclaims three paramount texts and they are called prastana thraiyam.

(i) Vedas -- (a) the entirety of poorva mimamsa is not Q/A type, it is full of fanciful stories, rituals, the purported benefits of these rituals, and elaborate rules for conducting these rituals -- no Q/A here and it is a fact, not my opinion; and (b) only parts of uttara mimamsa, i.e upanishads, are formatted in the Q/A conversation type. Of the rest, some start nominally with a question to be followed by an one-way lecture of doctrine, and the remaining are just fanciful but confident narrations of whatever they assert as final and ultimate truth.

(ii) Brahmma Sutra -- a cryptic set of statements called sutras, nothing Q/A about them. Many smart people have been arguing for millenia about what they mean and have come to conclusions that cannot be more opposed. There is no Q/A here, and that is a fact.

(iii) Bhagavat Geeta is nominally Q/A in the sense Arjuna asks a few questions here and there, but it is essentially a one-way preaching of doctrine to a child-like arjuna, who is overawed by it all and says so himself on occasion.

So, the fact is, the most important texts upon which the various religions that fall under the rubric Vedantam are built, are in the most part not Q/A and the parts that are Q/A type are hardly significant to make the above sweeping claim that all, bracketed by asterisks, teachings are Q/A conversations. What I have stated in support are facts, not my opinion.

However, the larger point is, it does not logically follow that even if the so called teachings are presented in a Q/A conversation format that critical questioning of the doctrine is encouraged or even allowed. tks himself has repeatedly asserted that if one is unsatisfied with the answers provided, then, one must not think the answers are unsatisfactory, we must conclude that the questioner lacks commitment and/or effort, namely shraddha. This is not indicative of encouraging critical questioning, just the opposite of it.

Further, it is also an irrefutable fact that just as tks falsely asserts his religion encourages critical questioning, the tks's of other religions make the exact same claim, falsely of course. This is not my opinion, it is verifiable fact.

So, in summary, there is no fact to backup the assertion that the Vedantic religions allow critical questioning, let alone encourage it. Please note, none of what I have stated to make this summary statement is my opinion to be swept aside, these are facts.

Surely you realize this is just your opinion. Just because Hindus worship a myriad of gods and in myriad of forms does not mean they have a respectful tolerance of other religions, far from it. I know for a fact that the Jeeyar of Ahobila Matam was severely criticized for just meeting with Shankarachariyar -- one who has clean shaved his head and cut off his poonal. This is not a mark of tolerance, but the opposite. Not that the Shankaracharyas fair well, they have no tolerance for fellow Hindus of lower castes, let alone other religions.

Of course, I cannot expect anyone to comment on my opinions. I understand that. However, the point here is not my opinion, but it is about claims made that are contrary to facts.

Thanks ....

1. Vedas: The teaching part relates *ONLY* to the knowledge section (Jnana) which is the last part of the Vedas (Upanishads). The first three parts do not apply to what I said because of the nature of the content (Karma, Upasana etc) and its associated objective.

Regarding so called 'one-way lecture' comment: When teachings begin in your lecture I assume people are not constantly interrupting. If the teaching seems cryptic then there are Bhashyakaras, & Tika-karas who have presented details behind the so called lectures with context and in Q&A form. Please go to the source. (Reading some western books or google references for anyone will leave them unsatisfied with my answer)

2. Brahma Sutras are just essence of what is already taught elsewhere. The format is chosen for different reasons and not teach a new concept. Again Bhashyakaras have explained the Sutras by using the principles of Purva-Paksha which is more like Q&A.
Unless you go to the source (like Bhashays it is not possible to get the essence of what is taught). It is irrelevant how many great minds have been arguing about what. The only thing that matters if a sincere student is able to understand the presentation without contradictions. The possibility of this happening is all that can be asserted here. One has to expend efforts to find out.

3. B.Gita is presented as a conversation. Your characterization is your own opinion. Anyone that teaches with *proper authority to teach* will welcome thoughtful questions from serious students. It will be silly to expect Arjuna to have asked all the questions that go through every Tom, Dick and Harry's mind in today's world. The Bhashyas (like that of Sri Sankara ) goes into extensive details in a Q&A form in terms of interpretations. In any case the presentation as Q&A is enough to appreciate the *importance* of questioning the teaching in our tradition . By the way there are many sections in the epic MB where teaching sections are always presented as Q&A (e.g., Moksha Parva)


Vedantam is not built on the first three parts of Vedas. The knowledge part stands by itself (and in some sense break-away from the first three parts of Vedas) - There are excellent reasons for this set up and it will be distraction to get into those details here.

I am only responding to what you have presented as 'facts' and providing context why those so called 'facts' are inapplicable to the main point that the foundation of our tradition encourages questioning.

Regarding Shraddha: There is no equivalent English word to translate this. It is needed to understand any material that requires great effort. One has to start with the idea that there is something of value here (which is an initial faith) which then gets ratified by understanding later. The best way to learn is to expend efforts like what a (sincere) Science PhD student is a top school would do. There is no pre-requisite that you have to agree apriori that what is taught is right always. In fact it is even better to assume the opposite and discover the precision & accuracy of the teaching. Critical questioning means one has done some home work before raising a question.

Bottomline: You have not refuted anything I have stated with any facts other than dismiss with your opinions to which I cannot respond.

Regarding Hindu mode of worship: I said upfront that I am not talking about what someone is doing or not doing. I can only tell you what our tradition is based on as a foundation. Our way of doing Puja is an act of role play - the priest will say this turmeric paste for the moment is Ganesha and then do pooja. Many Hindus of modern times have no clue and think that the priest is telling you to pray to the lump of turmeric. That is incorrect. In fact there are not many Gods in Hindu worship at the foundation level .

A key word is missing if one states - You are praying to a lump of Turmeric paste. This has to be modified as "You are praying to Isvara in the form of Ganesha through this lump of Turmeric"

The Hindu does not worship a four legged animal that says moo .. Instead the Hindu worships Isvara in the form of cow that sustains our life with its milk


So it is fine to worship SSB - a human as a form of Isvara for whatever qualities that the devotee sees in that person

Given this foundation in every aspects of our tradition any form of worship is fine and hence at the foundation a true Hindu can have no problem if a Christian worship a form of God in a Cross or "formless form" as in a Mosque (or in Chidambaram ). The issue has to do with the exclusivity in the theology of those religions which is the problem.

I am sure there are ignorant people in all traditions and I am not surprised if some sub-sect fought with another. That has nothing to do with the foundational aspects of our traditions which can be recognized in all key areas of our rituals.

Just because I am making comments about Puja please do not come to the conclusion that I am a theist . I am not.

 

[sangom]

< snipped >

A key word is missing if one states - You are praying to a lump of Turmeric paste. This has to be modified as "You are praying to Isvara in the form of Ganesha through this lump of Turmeric"

The Hindu does not worship a four legged animal that says moo .. Instead the Hindu worships Isvara in the form of cow that sustains our life with its milk


So it is fine to worship SSB - a human as a form of Isvara for whatever qualities that the devotee sees in that person

Given this foundation in every aspects of our tradition any form of worship is fine and hence at the foundation a true Hindu can have no problem if a Christian worship a form of God in a Cross or "formless form" as in a Mosque (or in Chidambaram ). The issue has to do with the exclusivity in the theology of those religions which is the problem.

< snipped >

I think that worshipping a lump of turmeric paste as ganesha, worshipping a cow, etc., are really not done in the manner sought to be described above, because the "sankalpa mantra" in each case does clearly specify that the devotee is about to (going to) do pooja of vighneswara (not even ganesha), kammadhenu, etc. When the sankalpa (or, the will) itself does not say that the devotee is doing pooja of Isvara, how then can such a thing be presumed?

Secondly, our saastras also prohibit doing aavaahanam of, say, ganesha on a sivalingam, or even in kumkumam paste instead of turmeric paste. Of course, we do not consider doing poojs of Kaamadhenu on a buffalo/donkey/pig since buffalo is Isvara and so cow-Isvara can be superimposed on the buffalo/donkey/pig etc.!

So, let us be aware that all these are not based on the highfaluting Ishvara or anything. The cow is a valuable animal and was an asset in those olden days to the brahmins and so it was prescribed that doing pooja of the cow (to be inevitably followed by gifting it to a braahmana (braahmana daana is the only thing emphasized repeatedly in most puranas and the yajur veda) will add to the income of brahmins. That was the simple, honest reality. Otherwise, the Isvara of tks is there in a pig or donkey or he-buffalo also, and why did not our scriptures advise the doing of pooja of these animals as forms of Isvara?

Or, is it the case that tks' Isvara is not present in donkey/pig/he buffalo? Let thinking readers think & decide.

 

[renuka]

So, let us be aware that all these are not based on the highfaluting Ishvara or anything. The cow is a valuable animal and was an asset in those olden days to the brahmins and so it was prescribed that doing pooja of the cow (to be inevitably followed by gifting it to a braahmana (braahmana daana is the only thing emphasized repeatedly in most puranas and the yajur veda) will add to the income of brahmins. That was the simple, honest reality. Otherwise, the Isvara of tks is there in a pig or donkey or he-buffalo also, and why did not our scriptures advise the doing of pooja of these animals as forms of Isvara?

Or, is it the case that tks' Isvara is not present in donkey/pig/he buffalo? Let thinking readers think & decide.

Dear Sangom ji,

Just over lunch today I was telling my husband that we Hindus consider the cow sacred cos the bull is a beast of burden and the cow is a valuable asset cos it provides milk, fuel from its dung and also ghee for religious rites and indispensable to a Brahmin and they received Cows in Go Dhaan.

I was telling him that I feel its for these reasons Cows got rated as sacred..cos if God is present in every creature then why no donkey is worshiped??

Dear Sangom ji.. you know at times its kind of scary that I am starting to think a lot like you!LOL

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

Just over lunch today I was telling my husband that we Hindus consider the cow sacred cos the bull is a beast of burden and the cow is a valuable asset cos it provides milk, fuel from its dung and also ghee for religious rites and indispensable to a Brahmin and they received Cows in Go Dhaan.

I was telling him that I feel its for these reasons Cows got rated as sacred..cos if God is present in every creature then why no donkey is worshiped??

Dear Sangom ji.. you know at times its kind of scary that I am starting to think a lot like you!LOL

Smt. Renuka,

You have not started thinking like myself, but you have started thinking. period.

BTW, I had read a book, some years ago, in google (old publication but NA in interent archives then) which gave the account of how various daanaas were eminently tailored to the material progress and prosperity of the priestly classes among the hindus. Unfortunately, the records of that book (along with some more data) have been lost when my HDD got damaged and possible data were extracted therefrom. If ever I get a clue I shall give the details; it makes interesting reading.

 

[zebra16]

I think that worshipping a lump of turmeric paste as ganesha, worshipping a cow, etc., are really not done in the manner sought to be described above, because the "sankalpa mantra" in each case does clearly specify that the devotee is about to (going to) do pooja of vighneswara (not even ganesha), kammadhenu, etc. When the sankalpa (or, the will) itself does not say that the devotee is doing pooja of Isvara, how then can such a thing be presumed?

Secondly, our saastras also prohibit doing aavaahanam of, say, ganesha on a sivalingam, or even in kumkumam paste instead of turmeric paste. Of course, we do not consider doing poojs of Kaamadhenu on a buffalo/donkey/pig since buffalo is Isvara and so cow-Isvara can be superimposed on the buffalo/donkey/pig etc.!

So, let us be aware that all these are not based on the highfaluting Ishvara or anything. The cow is a valuable animal and was an asset in those olden days to the brahmins and so it was prescribed that doing pooja of the cow (to be inevitably followed by gifting it to a braahmana (braahmana daana is the only thing emphasized repeatedly in most puranas and the yajur veda) will add to the income of brahmins. That was the simple, honest reality. Otherwise, the Isvara of tks is there in a pig or donkey or he-buffalo also, and why did not our scriptures advise the doing of pooja of these animals as forms of Isvara?

Or, is it the case that tks' Isvara is not present in donkey/pig/he buffalo? Let thinking readers think & decide.

Because the thinking readers think and decide, many of the spurious goods that are being attempted to be sold on this website remain unsold.

The thinking and deciding readers immediately question as to why a buffalo or a bull or a ram or a goat or a deer or even a porcupine was not found to be worthy of a gift, though there are vedic passages indicating that their meat was consumed.

The non-gift status of bulls and buffaloes during yajurveda times when the nomadic tribes had to settled down and started to grow crops should alert a thinking reader that bulls were not an asset category because the brahmins were not a land owning class and land usurpers.

The thinking readers are also keenly aware of the constant to-ing and fro-ing by some posters here between vedic and puranic periods rather seamlessly and attempting the proverbial moTTa thalai and muzhangAl mudichu and laughable logic being provided.

 

[sarang]

Like unauthorised foot path traders. Even when evicted by the authorities, return soon to peddle the same heaped on a new cart (or name).

Because the thinking readers think and decide, many of the spurious goods that are being attempted to be sold on this website remain unsold.

***
The thinking readers are also keenly aware of the constant to-ing and fro-ing by some posters here between vedic and puranic periods rather seamlessly and attempting the proverbial moTTa thalai and muzhangAl mudichu and laughable logic being provided.

 

[ashwin_ash]

<removed>

 

[Raji Ram]

........... Just over lunch today I was telling my husband that we Hindus consider the cow sacred cos the bull is a beast of burden and the cow is a valuable asset cos it provides milk, fuel from its dung and also ghee for religious rites and indispensable to a Brahmin and they received Cows in Go Dhaan.

I was telling him that I feel its for these reasons Cows got rated as sacred..cos if God is present in every creature then why no donkey is worshiped??......

Dear Renu,

Sorry for the interruption! The dung of bulls should be as good as cow's dung, to produce fuel!

Lord Shiva is worshiped with his Vrishabha vahana. So, there exists a holy bull! :hail:

 

[Raji Ram]

Courtesy: Google images

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Sorry for the interruption! The dung of bulls should be as good as cow's dung, to produce fuel!

Lord Shiva is worshiped with his Vrishabha vahana. So, there exists a holy bull! :hail:

Dear RR ji,

Yup I am aware of this..but it is easier handling a cow than a bull..ever seen a raging bull?

Bulls are very temperamental....so collecting cow dung is much easier than collecting bull dung.

Bulls mean business and you cant really mess with them..ever wondered why the swear word is Bull Sh*T and not Cow Sh*t?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

There is no swear word as cow sh*t because tambram mAmis in villages use them as a cleaning agent!

When I had to do the 'echchal idal' after a lunch session in the village, I refused to use cow sh*t along with the water! :nono:

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

There is no swear word as cow sh*t because tambram mAmis in villages use them as a cleaning agent!

When I had to do the 'echchal idal' after a lunch session in the village, I refused to use cow sh*t along with the water! :nono:

Dear RR ji,

You know when I was 9 years old..my small town school had some cows walking into our school field and I did not realize once that there was some fresh dung and I stepped on it..my friends screamed saying "Aiyoo you stepped on cow dung"

You know I actually did not jump..in fact I stood in the cow dung cos it was very warm..you see it was a cold day and the feeling of warmth on my feet was a boon.

So I stood quite some time in Cow Dung..so if you ask me I would do it again..cos that warmth of a fresh cow dung is a different feel all together..you should try it!

 

[zebra16]

Dear Renu,

Sorry for the interruption! The dung of bulls should be as good as cow's dung, to produce fuel!

Lord Shiva is worshiped with his Vrishabha vahana. So, there exists a holy bull! :hail:

You might not be reading the scriptures in a nuanced manner. Somewhere in the internet google searches you will find that bull's dung is not as pavitram as that of the cow's and was not used as a fuel. You, like me is a paTTikADu asking the obvious questions !!!!!!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

When an elephant comes to our village, the kids used to run behind it, awaiting the arrival of 'ladhdhi'!

The superstition is that whoever stamps on it for a few minutes will never get knee problems in future.

But one girl who did so is suffering with knee pain as a senior citizen now! So, that superstition is wrong, imho! :sad:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Narayan Sir,

I know that cow dung is pavithram! But the search for 'biogas' enlightened me with the following note:

"Biogas is produced by anaerobic digestion with anaerobic bacteria or fermentation of biodegradable materials such as

manure, sewage, municipal waste, green waste, plant material, and crops. It is primarily methane (CH4) and

carbon dioxide (CO[SUB]2[/SUB]) and may have small amounts of hydrogen sulphide (H2S), moisture and siloxanes."

I thought bull sh*t is better than sewage! Don't you think so??

 

[ashwin_ash]

<edited. Please be wary of what you say. This is a family friendly forum and there are unwritten rules and guidelines when it comes to saying what is on your mind. First warning. - praveen>

 

[sangom]

Because the thinking readers think and decide, many of the spurious goods that are being attempted to be sold on this website remain unsold.

The thinking and deciding readers immediately question as to why a buffalo or a bull or a ram or a goat or a deer or even a porcupine was not found to be worthy of a gift, though there are vedic passages indicating that their meat was consumed.

The non-gift status of bulls and buffaloes during yajurveda times when the nomadic tribes had to settled down and started to grow crops should alert a thinking reader that bulls were not an asset category because the brahmins were not a land owning class and land usurpers.

The thinking readers are also keenly aware of the constant to-ing and fro-ing by some posters here between vedic and puranic periods rather seamlessly and attempting the proverbial moTTa thalai and muzhangAl mudichu and laughable logic being provided.

Some can think of only ideas being sold (& bought); may be the blood of a trader (or, still better, of multi-national companies existing on the oxygen of "profit" alone) is known to them. Ideas and thinking are unlike traded goods, nor is this Forum a market.

One fact cannot however be contradicted, and that is that the cows which lived during yajurveda times cannot be living (and giving milk) even today. Hence, new cows were being born all the time and this should have entailed the services by bulls. Bulls, therefore, might most probably have been assets of some category other than the priests and there has been a hoary practice of gifting bulls as assets of temples. Hence there is no evidence to conclude that bulls had any non-gift status. Similar is the position w.r.t. buffalos also. But here again, brahmins did not favour keeping buffalos because of the animal's preferred habitat (swamp) and its taming problems.

Whether brahmins owned land in the "yajurveda times when the nomadic tribes had to settled down and started to grow crops" is another topic which will call for detailed discussions but let me inform readers that land was not "owned" even in historical times in India; land could only be cultivated by those who were ready for that, and, brahmins were essentially consumers of the agricultural surplus of the society — and were never tillers or producers.

vedic- & puranic- definitely represent two distinct phases in the growth of what is known as hinduism today. It is no sin, neither an offence to cite vedic- and/or puranic- evidence in support of any point as long as such evidence is valid.

 

[prasad1]

In the name of knowledge, all that is being done is trampling others dreams. You may not have dreams, or you killed all your dreams because of your superego but that does not give you any right to trample on others dreams.

Santa clause is a fictional character, but some 3 year old kids (?) believe in it, and their parents go along with it, who gives you () the moral right to make that child cry by telling that child the TRUTH. Yes it is a free country, and there is freedom of speech, and moderator allows it.
You might be hopeless, but give others the right to their life style.

Decency is not a law, it is a learned .

 

[sangom]

SSB used to dole out mutton testicles (read satcharita) and fish to muslim devotees. I still do not get how he was "brahminized". I don't know if I'm a rationalist or a believer, but lot of things struck me as odd in Shirdi.

The person who wrote the satcharita was Govind Raghunath Dabholkar. His house in Bandra West is known as 'Sai Nivas'. Paradoxically, his family has practically disowned SSB and latched on to a new godman named "Aniruddha Bapu" who preaches to the masses from a golden throne. Vinasa kale vipareetha buddhi..

Again, paradoxically, they say the bodies of godmen remain in pristine condition long after they are gone. Mao's and Lenin's bodies are as fresh as a daisy. Will wonders ever cease...

Dear Shri ashwin,

I don't understand what you refer to as "mutton testicles". Even if SSB doled out these and fish to muslim devotees, does that make him ineligible for respect? Secondly, is your opposition to the worshipping of SSB itself - in any manner whatsoever, or is it against SSB being depicted as a brahmin?

I don't think Baba is depicted as brahmin; the idol has no poonal, kudumi, sacred ash on the forehead or rudraksham in the neck nor even the tell-tale dhoti-panchakaccham.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Shri ashwin,

I don't understand what you refer to as "mutton testicles". Even if SSB doled out these and fish to muslim devotees, does that make him ineligible for respect? Secondly, is your opposition to the worshipping of SSB itself - in any manner whatsoever, or is it against SSB being depicted as a brahmin?

I don't think Baba is depicted as brahmin; the idol has no poonal, kudumi, sacred ash on the forehead or rudraksham in the neck nor even the tell-tale dhoti-panchakaccham.

The idol has everything except the sacred thread and kudumi. Please see the live arati on their website from 2230-2300 IST. Btw which hindu 'god' has kudumi? Most are handsome and very manly, not really depicted as old men. And most goddesses are nubile. Even Ganesha is depicted as a virile young God in one of his forms (ucchista ganapathi)..

Point is, when there are so many pretty gods and goddesses to worship, why would people fall for a cult which worships a meat-eating old man who had little interest in worldly pleasures?

 

[Vaagmi]

Chapter xxv- sai satcharita:

Baba's speech established its efficacy or greatness while He was living in the flesh, but wonder of wonders! It did the same even after His passing away. Baba said - "Believe Me, though I pass away, My bones in My tomb will give you hope and confidence. Not only Myself but My tomb would be speaking, moving and communicating with those who would surrender themselves whole-heartedly to Me. Do not be anxious that I would be absent from you. You will hear My bones speaking and discussing your welfare. But remember Me always, believe in Me heart and soul and then you will be most benefited.

Sai Satcharita- chapter 4

Rich and poor people were the same to Him.
He did not know, or care for, honor or dishonor. He was the Lord of all beings. He spoke
freely and mixed with all people, saw the acting and dances of Nautch-girls, and heard
Gajjal songs.

Dear Ashwin,

Just a question to know where you stand:

Do you believe in the story of Bible that Christ came back alive after he died at the cross and then went to heaven?

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Ashwin,

Just a question to know where you stand:

Do you believe in the story of Bible that Christ came back alive after he died at the cross and then went to heaven?

Where are you getting at? Are you also one of the fanboys who brook no criticism of their 'enlightened masters'?

Btw, google codex bible.

 

[Vaagmi]

Religious people belonging to all religion loath to admit theirs is merely a faith, they bend over backwards to claim their religion does not demand unquestioning faith, and not only that, their own religion encourages critical thinking and questioning. Google the terms "critical questioning" concatenated with the religion you want to find out about. As a kind of short hand, look for a religious person claiming his religion is uniquely rational and encourages critical questioning, and that should set the alarm off for you to be skeptical of these claims. Further, without fail, ask them any truly difficult question and without fail all of them will insist you can see the answer only if you have proper commitment and determination to see the proper answers.

And then this tolerance, Muslims and Christians at least try to convert you, they think, in their own warped way, everybody has the right to the "good word". But Hindus have disdain for others, not tolerance -- tolerance involves respect.....

Nara,

In a forum like this you can write anything and get away with it. But let me try with what you have written above:

1.Without bending over backwards I am making a straight and simple claim that my faith-hinduism, the vedic religion- does not demand unquestioning faith, encourages critical thinking and questioning. Please prove me wrong here in this forum with your argument. Please dont tell us that it will involve recycling. If you have recycle you are welcome to do that. We will show indulgence. But you have to prove your tongue in cheek assertion.

2. You have said "Further, without fail, ask them any truly difficult question and without fail all of them will insist you can see the answer only if you have proper commitment and determination to see the proper answers". Please ask me your difficult questions. I promise I will not ask you show your commitment and determination. Please.

3.You also said "But Hindus have disdain for others, not tolerance -- tolerance involves respect..". In any of the gulf countries there is no Hindu or a christian or a jain or budhdhist citizen. In India you have a citizen of every religion in the world. Some disdain this. If disdain was there, moghuls and Nawabs of other dynasties would not have ruled this country peacefully, happily maintaining a zenana full of concubines.

Nara, let me see how you are going to defend your position. You need not reply to me directly. You can address your post to any member here including Tks. I am only curious. Thanks.