My Shirdi trip- some thoughts and questions

[sangom]

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Where do people like Tarun Tejpal , Justice Ganguly etc fit in ? This seems to be the new tip of another iceberg .

I consider the sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc., as frauds mainly based on the issue that they are intrinsically incapable of being such sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc., but manage to mislead groups of gullible people into believing them to be such sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc.

Tejpal is a sexual offender. He is not a fraud imo. As regards Ganguly, I have my own doubts and so will not group him with Tejpal until further evidence becomes available in the public sphere.

 

[ashwin_ash]

I consider the sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc., as frauds mainly based on the issue that they are intrinsically incapable of being such sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc., but manage to mislead groups of gullible people into believing them to be such sadhus, gurujis, godmen, etc.

Tejpal is a sexual offender. He is not a fraud imo. As regards Ganguly, I have my own doubts and so will not group him with Tejpal until further evidence becomes available in the public sphere.

How do you convince people that worshipping the graves of godmen is not going to benefit them in any which way? The more you try to think rationally, the more society derides you.

 

[sangom]

Reportedly, SSB used to enjoy the company of "nautch" girls (devadasis) and they used to dance for him. How does this gel with the current image of SSB as a pious saint who brought succour and happiness to billions?

He reportedly said his bones will speak from his tomb. Bones are made of calcium and phosphorus and disintegrate into dust after some years. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only thing dust causes is an allergy and sinus problems.

Dear Ashwin,

Both the above points about SSB (I presume you are referring to Shirdi Sai Baba) are news to me. Can you give some references please, or is it from hearsay you got during your visit?

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Ashwin,

Both the above points about SSB (I presume you are referring to Shirdi Sai Baba) are news to me. Can you give some references please, or is it from hearsay you got during your visit?

Chapter xxv- sai satcharita:

Baba's speech established its efficacy or greatness while He was living in the flesh, but wonder of wonders! It did the same even after His passing away. Baba said - "Believe Me, though I pass away, My bones in My tomb will give you hope and confidence. Not only Myself but My tomb would be speaking, moving and communicating with those who would surrender themselves whole-heartedly to Me. Do not be anxious that I would be absent from you. You will hear My bones speaking and discussing your welfare. But remember Me always, believe in Me heart and soul and then you will be most benefited.

Sai Satcharita- chapter 4

Rich and poor people were the same to Him.
He did not know, or care for, honor or dishonor. He was the Lord of all beings. He spoke
freely and mixed with all people, saw the acting and dances of Nautch-girls, and heard
Gajjal songs.

 

[renuka]

Chapter xxv- sai satcharita:

Baba's speech established its efficacy or greatness while He was living in the flesh, but wonder of wonders! It did the same even after His passing away. Baba said - "Believe Me, though I pass away, My bones in My tomb will give you hope and confidence. Not only Myself but My tomb would be speaking, moving and communicating with those who would surrender themselves whole-heartedly to Me. Do not be anxious that I would be absent from you. You will hear My bones speaking and discussing your welfare. But remember Me always, believe in Me heart and soul and then you will be most benefited.

Sai Satcharita- chapter 4

Rich and poor people were the same to Him.
He did not know, or care for, honor or dishonor. He was the Lord of all beings. He spoke
freely and mixed with all people, saw the acting and dances of Nautch-girls, and heard
Gajjal songs.

Dear Ashwin,

You see its clear now..that Shiridi Baba did not judge anyone..He saw everyone as the same be it a so called sinner or so called saint..isn't that a rare find?
He truly had Samadarshinah.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Ashwin,

You see its clear now..that Shiridi Baba did not judge anyone..He saw everyone as the same be it a so called sinner or so called saint..isn't that a rare find?
He truly had Samadarshinah.

A grand welcome to the SSB fanboys club!!

 

[renuka]

A grand welcome to the SSB fanboys club!!

Thank you Ashwin ji...I was a fan long long ago since the age of 8!

 

[prasad1]

Sigh..another SSB fanatic from the US of A. Not that I am not from the US of A, but India is equally my home and I make it a point to visit as many places in India as possible. I do not always sit in a heated living room in the US and get my feathers ruffled over something happening in India, without actually seeing what's happening.

Whenever I make an observation, I verify facts, and see things for myself if possible.. armchair fanatics are the worst possible kind. They know nothing, they pretend to know everything..​

Just because someone wants people to have personal freedom they do not become "SSB fanatic from USA". Please do not cloak yourself in Tricolor, you are not the only flag bearer.

 

[tks]

Sir,

I apologize since you seem rather upset now. It is rather funny that you're not a devotee yet you seem to defend the true devotees with a never-before seen vengeance. It is also funny that you say the truth is irrelevant just because people hold a person in high regard.

Seems there's no place for rational discussions in any fora nowadays. Fanaticism rules. Sad.

Actually I am not upset - I was pointing out issues in the statement. If I were upset my reaction would have been different.
Let me try once more to explain the larger point I was making.

Truth matters but some so called facts (true or not) are simply *irrelevant*. There is a larger truth which is to treat others like we like to be treated (Christians call this the 'Golden Rule)

What people do is their business - if someone wants to worship a person or do any other act provided those acts do not cause harm to others then who are we to judge them. If we think someone is gullible let them be gullible. We need not bother ourselves or make judgement or mock them. Any judgement comes across as if the person making the judgement has opportunity to grow as a person as to how they relate to others.

I think the above attitude is a form of respect given to other human beings in our mind.


It is legitimate - if you are a SSB devotee - to ask how the devotees reconcile with the notion that he was enjoying the performances of Devadasis.

There may be a few possible explanations - I am neither endorsing nor opposing the views below of SSB - It is just to show how a devotee could reason of tghe so called God-man which need not be a ridiculous concept.

Dr Renu gave you one such explanation of a person being Samadarshini - this is one of the highest levels of maturity a person could grow into in Hindu thinking.

In Hindu thinking all are manifestations of God - you are not any different from SSB in your nature as to who you are. The only difference is the so called 'God-men' realize this and you do not. This has nothing to do with any so called 'miracles' being reported.

So there are reasons that people may want to have a God men in their lives that may be helping them. Even if it seems wrong to you it is their lives in the end.

I hope the above point clarifies what I was trying to say in the past posts.

 

[Nara]

....Atheism and theism are at the same level of ignorance and are two sides of the same coin .. both have no basis and so atheist need not feel pride for being logical !

uncalled for swipe at atheists, and theists to boot --

why do you care? why mock the atheists and theists? let them spend their time in whatever, it need not bother you if you are not one of those people who are atheists and theists .... etc., etc.

 

[tks]

uncalled for swipe at atheists, and theists to boot --

why do you care? why mock the atheists and theists? let them spend their time in whatever, it need not bother you if you are not one of those people who are atheists and theists .... etc., etc.

Nara - there you again ...

I did not say anything about atheist and theist ..

Why do you think this is mocking?

If you are an atheist tell me why you think you have more knowledge and insights about universe any more than anyone else.

If you are a theist same question applies.

Both are belief oriented activities - that is the point.

It is simply statement about what the ism is about - you dont have to feel the need to defend the atheism or interpret this as a attack.

There is no need for believers of either ism to feel proud - that is the point

 

[auh]

...

Both are belief oriented activities - that is the point

Ah, there it is... Thank you.

 

[Nara]

....It is simply statement about what the ism is about - you dont have to feel the need to defend the atheism or interpret this as a attack.

The point is, as you were tutoring ash about why he should care, you were making unrelated statements about atheism and theism in your post #69. I just typed your own words back to you, why do you care?

Go and read your post #69 again and tell me what is the relevance of the last statement. If I were to now say Advaitam and VA are both stupid -- just to be on the safe side, let us be clear, I am not saying it, it is only a rhetoric device -- two sides of the same coin, it would have as much relevance as your last statement in post #69.

If you want to debate atheism let us do it, but don't keep making disparaging remarks without any substance....

 

[ashwin_ash]

<removed>

 

[tks]

The point is, as you were tutoring ash about why he should care, you were making unrelated statements about atheism and theism in your post #69. I just typed your own words back to you, why do you care?

Go and read your post #69 again and tell me what is the relevance of the last statement. If I were to now say Advaitam and VA are both stupid -- just to be on the safe side, let us be clear, I am not saying it, it is only a rhetoric device -- two sides of the same coin, it would have as much relevance as your last statement in post #69.

If you want to debate atheism let us do it, but don't keep making disparaging remarks without any substance....

Nara

I did not use the word stupid .. there was nothing disparaging .. it is how one reads it.

I said atheism and theism are at the same level of ignorance (if you want I can say ignorance and knowledge)..

Word ignorance is not derogatory .. there is nothing new to the table by the word atheism.

It was relevant in that post because if someone mocks SSB (believers could be considered theist ) I wanted to say that atheism is not in any higher footing.

There was no disparaging put down of either ism - they are just facts that both are belief based isms

You dont have to start the meta discussion - you can respond in what way atheism brings new information to the table

 

[Nara]

The most disgusting part is, some people have claimed to have 'seen' SSB's private parts (see Satcharita) and hence say he was a hindu (and born to brahmin parents, to give a new spin), while some say he was circumcized hence not hindu.

Is there anything special about Brahmin foreskin that is distinguishable from NB foreskin? If not how can one tell he was B Hindu or NB Hindu?

ash, you have done a lot of research into this, haven't you? I welcome you exposing these absurdities ....

 

[mkrishna100]

Is there anything special about Brahmin foreskin that is distinguishable from NB foreskin? If not how can one tell he was B Hindu or NB Hindu?

ash, you have done a lot of research into this, haven't you? I welcome you exposing these absurdities ....

:rockon:

 

[ashwin_ash]

The conversation between me and the tambram couple in the Shirdi waiting hall went like this:

<them> Neenga tamila?

<me> appadithan ellarum solranga

<them> ana neenga north indian madhiri irukinga

<me> naan tamila-nu neengathan kaetinga..

<them> anaaa.. ungala partha north indian illa arab madhiriyeee iruke..

<me> appadiya.. adhuku naan enna panna.. oru velai enaku pigmentation deficiency iruko.. edhukum nalla skin specialist-a parpom..

<them> neenga enga velai panringa?

<me, whispering> velai-nu onnu irundhathan nalla irukume.. naane vetti payan.. pala naal usa-la vettiya irupen.. sila naal chennai-la vetti

<me> neenga enga velai panringa?

<them, the man> naan BEML-la velai panren- in kolar gold fields

<me> KGF thiruttu pasangaluku romba famous ache (it's a fact)..

<them> illalla.. naanga 'quarters'-la irukom.. romba nalla idam..naanga adikadi shirdi varom..once a month

<me, muttering> adhan theriyudhe.. central government vetti pasanga..ellarum kattara tax-la nee shirdi-ku pove..kailasathukum pove..

<them> naanga dinamum internet-la naal poora shirdi darshan parpom..

<me> pesama neenga oru 3-D TV with latest touch n feel technology vangineengana.. shirdi-ye unga veetuku varum

<them> pona thadavai naanga pathri poirundhom.. baba-voda ancestral veedu.. engaluku kannula alugaya vandichu..

<me> enna, edhavadhu madras-eye epidemic-a?

<them> illalla.. naanga romba emtional ayitom..

<me> kanna thodachitu konjam eye drops oothina ellam seriya poidum..

<them> baba-voda snanam enna kankolla katchi..

<me, muttering> never knew dead people bathe.. Megan Fox-oda snanumum-than kankolla katchi..

Thus went the conversation..

 

[renuka]

Dear Ashwin,

Your posts make me smile....you are really focusing some much on Shiridi Baba much more than any devotee....this I can safely bet.

 

[tks]

The conversation between me and the tambram couple in the Shirdi waiting hall went like this:

<them> Neenga tamila?

<me> appadithan ellarum solranga

<them> ana neenga north indian madhiri irukinga

<me> naan tamila-nu neengathan kaetinga..

<them> anaaa.. ungala partha north indian illa arab madhiriyeee iruke..

<me> appadiya.. adhuku naan enna panna.. oru velai enaku pigmentation deficiency iruko.. edhukum nalla skin specialist-a parpom..

<them> neenga enga velai panringa?

<me, whispering> velai-nu onnu irundhathan nalla irukume.. naane vetti payan.. pala naal usa-la vettiya irupen.. sila naal chennai-la vetti

<me> neenga enga velai panringa?

<them, the man> naan BEML-la velai panren- in kolar gold fields

<me> KGF thiruttu pasangaluku romba famous ache (it's a fact)..

<them> illalla.. naanga 'quarters'-la irukom.. romba nalla idam..naanga adikadi shirdi varom..once a month

<me, muttering> adhan theriyudhe.. central government vetti pasanga..ellarum kattara tax-la nee shirdi-ku pove..kailasathukum pove..

<them> naanga dinamum internet-la naal poora shirdi darshan parpom..

<me> pesama neenga oru 3-D TV with latest touch n feel technology vangineengana.. shirdi-ye unga veetuku varum

<them> pona thadavai naanga pathri poirundhom.. baba-voda ancestral veedu.. engaluku kannula alugaya vandichu..

<me> enna, edhavadhu madras-eye epidemic-a?

<them> illalla.. naanga romba emtional ayitom..

<me> kanna thodachitu konjam eye drops oothina ellam seriya poidum..

<them> baba-voda snanam enna kankolla katchi..

<me, muttering> never knew dead people bathe.. Megan Fox-oda snanumum-than kankolla katchi..

Thus went the conversation..

Nara is right .. I had a hearty laugh reading your narration of your conversation ..

 

[ashwin_ash]

Nara is right .. I had a hearty laugh reading your narration of your conversation ..

Thank you..I'm actually a serious-minded person and the conversation was not made up at all..

 

[ashwin_ash]

The conversation between me and the tambram couple in the Shirdi waiting hall went like this:

<them> Neenga tamila?

<me> appadithan ellarum solranga

<them> ana neenga north indian madhiri irukinga

<me> naan tamila-nu neengathan kaetinga..

<them> anaaa.. ungala partha north indian illa arab madhiriyeee iruke..

<me> appadiya.. adhuku naan enna panna.. oru velai enaku pigmentation deficiency iruko.. edhukum nalla skin specialist-a parpom..

<them> neenga enga velai panringa?

<me, whispering> velai-nu onnu irundhathan nalla irukume.. naane vetti payan.. pala naal usa-la vettiya irupen.. sila naal chennai-la vetti

<me> neenga enga velai panringa?

<them, the man> naan BEML-la velai panren- in kolar gold fields

<me> KGF thiruttu pasangaluku romba famous ache (it's a fact)..

<them> illalla.. naanga 'quarters'-la irukom.. romba nalla idam..naanga adikadi shirdi varom..once a month

<me, muttering> adhan theriyudhe.. central government vetti pasanga..ellarum kattara tax-la nee shirdi-ku pove..kailasathukum pove..

<them> naanga dinamum internet-la naal poora shirdi darshan parpom..

<me> pesama neenga oru 3-D TV with latest touch n feel technology vangineengana.. shirdi-ye unga veetuku varum

<them> pona thadavai naanga pathri poirundhom.. baba-voda ancestral veedu.. engaluku kannula alugaya vandichu..

<me> enna, edhavadhu madras-eye epidemic-a?

<them> illalla.. naanga romba emtional ayitom..

<me> kanna thodachitu konjam eye drops oothina ellam seriya poidum..

<them> baba-voda snanam enna kankolla katchi..

<me, muttering> never knew dead people bathe.. Megan Fox-oda snanumum-than kankolla katchi..

Thus went the conversation..

If we never courted controversy and criticized godmen and religion etc etc, would religion have flourished in the first place? It is due to diversity of thought that society still believes in 'religion'.

 

[venkat2206]

Dear All,

I am Venkat K posted the thread some foujr days back and subsequently went out of station. Today when I see the thread, I saw there are more than 60 posts after mine.

Even though I may not agree with most of "childish" comments in this thread, I decide to tell a big thanks for all the participants.

Venkat K

 

[tks]

If we never courted controversy and criticized godmen and religion etc etc, would religion have flourished in the first place? It is due to diversity of thought that society still believes in 'religion'.

Our religious tradition already allows questioning and Hindus are not just tolerant but accepting of all forms of worship including God men.

The goal of the society need not be to get them to believe in any religion.

The only growth that is possible is our own growth by what we do and how we act

 

[Nara]

Our religious tradition already allows questioning and Hindus are not just tolerant but accepting of all forms of worship including God men.

Religious people belonging to all religion loath to admit theirs is merely a faith, they bend over backwards to claim their religion does not demand unquestioning faith, and not only that, their own religion encourages critical thinking and questioning. Google the terms "critical questioning" concatenated with the religion you want to find out about. As a kind of short hand, look for a religious person claiming his religion is uniquely rational and encourages critical questioning, and that should set the alarm off for you to be skeptical of these claims. Further, without fail, ask them any truly difficult question and without fail all of them will insist you can see the answer only if you have proper commitment and determination to see the proper answers.

And then this tolerance, Muslims and Christians at least try to convert you, they think, in their own warped way, everybody has the right to the "good word". But Hindus have disdain for others, not tolerance -- tolerance involves respect.....