Procreate or Perish

[vgane]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

We have in previous posts discussed about how the Tambrahm community is constantly declining in numbers since the last 10 years due to IC/IR marriages, low fertility (mostly single child), late marriage of girls and decline in number of girls available for marriage with Tambrahm boys & late birth of first child...There were suggestions such as to advise our children at the onset puberty/adolescent age about the physical changes they undergo & the precautions there of to be taken, go for dialog with our children through a community counselor to advise against IC/IR, go far colleges/schools which are in line with our Brahminical culture etc to prevent IC/IR

Can we advise our children to plan for a larger family...I am not sure with girls being employed whether they will be willing to go for the second/third child..At best we can advise them indirectly to reduce the gap between 2 child from more than 5 years to 3-4 years..

We can also advise parents to get their children married early (boys around 25 years from earlier 27-30 years...

However in planning the family, if we can provide support to welcome the second child by helping them remove the obstacles for the birth of the second child (may be helping them go for a slightly larger house, helping the mother in child rearing, taking some role for the house hold chores, taking an active interest in the first child's growth including education, dropping the child in bus stop/bringing the child from school etc)

Another suggestion is welcoming the bride & making her feel comfortable on all fronts...In the last 2 years I have seen the change in attitude of mother-in-law with new bride being showered with gold and other gifts in the new family which I have not seen before..It is a welcome development!...The in-law's relationship has to undergo a change with the end in mind!

During a recent wedding one of my Tambrahm friend's wife commented that she is going to ask for dowry for her daughter who was just 5 years old, when she will get her married...So situations are changing...Our community has to adapt to the changing situations & go for the kill

Please read the recent article on Government providing incentives to increase the numbers in the Parsis community

India Urges One Community to Reproduce - India Real Time - WSJ

We may learn a few things for our community too!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Vgane,

The solution is not to procreate more to offset the declining numbers of tambrahm community but to increase the fidelity of the members to the community. That I think would be better in achieving the objective even in the longer run. The major obstacle I see is the decrease in the respect given to the scriptures by the younger generation. If this is set right, things will automatically look up for the community. The real value of what is said in the scriptures should be deeply inculcated into the minds of the youngsters. I think it is possible to implement this as the scriptures do have genuine value and relevance to the youngsters in helping them to have the right perspectives and make them grow into really mature and balanced adults.

The parents and other elders in the family should themselves really believe in the value of the scriptures to make the youngsters see that truth.

 

[Raji Ram]

........ 1. Can we advise our children to plan for a larger family...I am not sure with girls being employed whether they will be willing to go for the second/third child..At best we can advise them indirectly to reduce the gap between 2 child from more than 5 years to 3-4 years..

2. We can also advise parents to get their children married early (boys around 25 years from earlier 27-30 years.
............

Dear Sir,

1. 'thOLukku minjinAl thOzhan' was the proverb. Now a days it is 'thOLukku minjinAl boss!'. Please read what I have posted today -

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/literature/6400-a-54.html#post207948 (​யார் இருப்பார்கள்?)

2. This might be possible IFF boys agree to marry girls who are older than them because girls get established well in job only when

they near the age of 30!

 

[auh]

Does the "we" in the op presuppose some kind of central advisory body for the tb that would eek out suggestions to its flock? If so, the probability of such suggestion translating to reality is rather bleak.

If it is only to the members of the forum - the 1%(?) or less of the visitors who chose to post and opine, then perhaps it is further bleak, as all of those who jot down thoughts into words are not of the kindly type who listen to straight suggestions. Also, most of them are grandpas. So...

 

[prasad1]

Does the "we" in the op presuppose some kind of central advisory body for the tb that would eek out suggestions to its flock? If so, the probability of such suggestion translating to reality is rather bleak.

If it is only to the members of the forum - the 1%(?) or less of the visitors who chose to post and opine, then perhaps it is further bleak, as all of those who jot down thoughts into words are not of the kindly type who listen to straight suggestions. Also, most of them are grandpas. So...

Why do we need this bitter medicine of reality to ground us in our flight of fantasy?
I agree with Mr. Sravna's post #2.
There is another possibility. Why not accept conversion to TB? Always a new convert is more loyal than the old and tired.

 

[Nara]

Please take a look at this:

A Wedding With A Difference ? That Made A Difference! | The Better India

This is the kind of frontline we need to encourage our children to occupy, not urge them to procreate more babies earlier and faster .... This, apparently, was a wedding with 7 steps, not the சீர்திருத்தம் kind!!!!

 

[C RAVI]

Please take a look at this:

A Wedding With A Difference ? That Made A Difference! | The Better India

This is the kind of frontline we need to encourage our children to occupy, not urge them to procreate more babies earlier and faster .... This, apparently, was a wedding with 7 steps, not the சீர்திருத்தம் kind!!!!

Such Exceptional life style preferences and desires are rare, uncommon and so are exceptional. Such exceptions are admirable or not is a different thing and living a life of an ordinary human in a society, with desires to live a married life with off springs etc, in a family setup is totally different.

As long as people live and let others live and as long as people could feel like contributing to the needy within their capacity, the human kind can do better.

When humans wish to live in a marriage institution such that they could continue to adhere to their tradition, customs, culture etc..etc and desire to live a healthy life without wasting their precious time, energy and without getting carried away with the fantasies of materialistic life only to be left blinking without a clue at their old age, the OP and the following post no.2 is truly sensible and the need of the hour, especially for the Brahmin community.

 

[vgane]

Dear Sir,

1. 'thOLukku minjinAl thOzhan' was the proverb. Now a days it is 'thOLukku minjinAl boss!'. Please read what I have posted today -

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/literature/6400-a-54.html#post207948 (​யார் இருப்பார்கள்?)

2. This might be possible IFF boys agree to marry girls who are older than them because girls get established well in job only when

they near the age of 30!

Dear Madam,

1. Yes, I do agree that youngsters are not listening to elders...With nuclear families being the norm, meeting of relatives has become a rarity except during functions such as Marriage/Upanayanam etc....Meetings have got reduced because of absence of elderly people who used to be jointly with their kids...Also I have seen that when relatives (cousins/cousin children) from other cities come to your city it is up to them to communicate that they are coming to your city...I have found that sharing is becoming a rarity...So meeting has also become very rare..It is more business like..Meeting relatives is last in the priority

The link that you have shared is excellent...Shows the current reality in bare bones

2. On girls getting married late is that as there are large unmarried male population above 30 years among Tambrahms there should not be any problem for finding a bridegroom for the girl nearing 30 years...Also parents of girls should advise their girls to get married earlier...Settling in jobs is not TO BE recommended..Let theM study , work for 2-3 years and get married by 25-26 years..The above should be recommended to arrest the tide in the community

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vgane Sir,

It is very nice to see when the groom in the age below 30 and a bride in mid twenties get married.

But not many parents are able to achieve this. The late marriage and cost of education have made

the young parents think more than twice before getting their second child!

I have also noticed that tambram couples living in the U S of A go for 2 or more children, happily! :grouphug:

 

[vgane]

Such Exceptional life style preferences and desires are rare, uncommon and so are exceptional. Such exceptions are admirable or not is a different thing and living a life of an ordinary human in a society, with desires to live a married life with off springs etc, in a family setup is totally different.

As long as people live and let others live and as long as people could feel like contributing to the needy within their capacity, the human kind can do better.

When humans wish to live in a marriage institution such that they could continue to adhere to their tradition, customs, culture etc..etc and desire to live a healthy life without wasting their precious time, energy and without getting carried away with the fantasies of materialistic life only to be left blinking without a clue at their old age, the OP and the following post no.2 is truly sensible and the need of the hour, especially for the Brahmin community.

Dear Shri Ravi,

We can donate to charity, we can help a person in need or even adopt as per the exceptional inspirational story shared by Nara

The point that you have raised that when it comes raising families as per traditional values it is as normal as any other way of life is a relevant view..Let us not be ashamed of any thing & let us go about our duties with all the rigor to achieve success in life in terms of health, wealth and progeny;

 

[renuka]

It is very easy for guys to talk about having more kids cos it is not them who have go through pregnancy!LOL

Do guys know what Post Partum Blues is?

So not all woman might want to go through pregnancy more than once or twice.

BTW more kids means we have to work extra hard to put them through college and providing property for them..more kids means each kid inherits less..so it is better to have quality than quantity...less kids means we can retire earlier from job after getting them through college and getting them married.

 

[prasad1]

It is very easy for guys to talk about having more kids cos it is not them who have go through pregnancy!LOL

Do guys know what Post Partum Blues is?

So not all woman might want to go through pregnancy more than once or twice.

BTW more kids means we have to work extra hard to put them through college and providing property for them..more kids means each kid inherits less..so it is better to have quality than quantity...less kids means we can retire earlier from job after getting them through college and getting them married.

Dr. REnuka,
That is the ultimate goal of majority of men. Keep the women bare foot and pregnant. That cuts down on workplace competition, keeps women totally dependent, the man gets home cooked food. and there are much more hidden agendas.
:bounce::frusty:

 

[renuka]

Dr. REnuka,
That is the ultimate goal of majority of men. Keep the women bare foot and pregnant. That cuts down on workplace competition, keeps women totally dependent, the man gets home cooked food. and there are much more hidden agendas.
:bounce::frusty:

Dear Prasad ji,

But dont men know that if there are more children at home men get less attention from wife?

So the best is keep a minimum number of children so that one can pay spouse attention and also get attention from spouse.

 

[Raji Ram]

........ That is the ultimate goal of majority of men. Keep the women bare foot and pregnant. That cuts down on workplace competition, keeps women totally dependent, the man gets home cooked food. and there are much more hidden agendas. ......

Dear Prasad Sir,

I have seem many women who get pregnant, still go to work and cook food too! :ballchain:

 

[prasad1]

Dear Prasad ji,

But dont men know that if there are more children at home men get less attention from wife?

So the best is keep a minimum number of children so that one can pay spouse attention and also get attention from spouse.

Attention can be bought elsewhere? Starving children is good for jihad of all kinds.

 

[vgane]

It is very easy for guys to talk about having more kids cos it is not them who have go through pregnancy!LOL

Do guys know what Post Partum Blues is?

So not all woman might want to go through pregnancy more than once or twice.

BTW more kids means we have to work extra hard to put them through college and providing property for them..more kids means each kid inherits less..so it is better to have quality than quantity...less kids means we can retire earlier from job after getting them through college and getting them married.

The objective of thread is about the low fertility in Brahmin...Of course we are not taking about 6 or 8 kids that our grand mothers and great grand mothers had

We are talking about 2-3 kids & that too for couples who have the wherewithals

Where is the question of quality getting compromised?

 

[vgane]

Dr. REnuka,
That is the ultimate goal of majority of men. Keep the women bare foot and pregnant. That cuts down on workplace competition, keeps women totally dependent, the man gets home cooked food. and there are much more hidden agendas.
:bounce::frusty:

RR Madam has answered this...Where is the hidden agenda in this...The OP has clarified & the fertility of Brahmins was discussed thread bare in http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12760-community-digging-its-own-grave.html
We need to take a corrective action to arrest the down fall...Otherwise we go the Parsi way

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vgane Sir,

I have seen many tambrams living in the U S of A having 3 children. But the problem is that when the children grow up,

they are unable to find tambram partner willing to relocate and hence choose the partner from other religions. I already

wrote that none of the three children of my sister in law could choose any brahm spouse! Sad indeed!!

 

[C RAVI]

The objective of thread is about the low fertility in Brahmin...Of course we are not taking about 6 or 8 kids that our grand mothers and great grand mothers had

We are talking about 2-3 kids & that too for couples who have the wherewithals

Where is the question of quality getting compromised?

RR Madam has answered this...Where is the hidden agenda in this...The OP has clarified & the fertility of Brahmins was discussed thread bare in http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12760-community-digging-its-own-grave.html
We need to take a corrective action to arrest the down fall...Otherwise we go the Parsi way

Shri vgane,

The OP is very much clear and the objective of the OP is also reasonable. When people have ample free time they tend to make twist and turns to spice up the subject in hand by intellectually figuring out hidden agenda and stupidity, very much unreasonably.

---------

Unfortunately even well to do couples are opting for just 1 child so that they can have ample time for their own activities. Children are considered burden and are not willing to nurture more than one. They spoil their one and the only one child by keep pampering the single child and tend to make them arrogant, uncompromising, carefree etc.etc. Without having a sibling some child tend to get miss leaded/cheated by their outside friends as well. Such single child are left with no sibling to share their feelings, to play together, to get guidance and share many day to day stuff with each other.

There was a very good Neeya-Naana talk show in Vijay TV, couple of months before, on the same topic. The conclusion was mostly towards encouraging more than 1 child which would help having a lively & cheerful home and helping the child grow effectively as well. The only thing is, this topic in the show was in common for all the caste community.

 

[prasad1]

RR Madam has answered this...Where is the hidden agenda in this...The OP has clarified & the fertility of Brahmins was discussed thread bare in http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12760-community-digging-its-own-grave.html
We need to take a corrective action to arrest the down fall...Otherwise we go the Parsi way

Let us get personal, this is not to get up on a soap box and preach time. How many kids did you raise? if you did ask them how many they are going to raise? Get a feel among your personal circle? I am the youngest in my family all my sibling had 2 or less children. Some of cousins did not marry and others did not have children at all. Among my nephews an nieces no body has more than 2 child.

What with the demand on parents time being a premium in the high pressure world, it is difficult to raise children. Middle class families want their children to be more successful than themselves so allocate the resources accordingly.

So to sit an ivory tower and proclaim that the next generation should procreate more children is fruitless.

Young people on this site who think they can do better, should get married and raise religious kids at home.

Some other interesting reads:
A Small Family is a Happy Family : By Karan Kapoor
http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Small-Family-is-a-Happy-Family&id=2326864

It's not necessarily a fact that small families are the best, but the fact that raising just one child is extremely expensive. There is the hospital bill, one must have good medical/dental (very expensive) for those toothaches, possible braces, fevers, scrapes, childhood diseases, not to mention the many shots children get during their younger years. There is clothing, food, a good home to live in, education and other hidden costs. Your child is better adjusted if they (a boy) are put into a sport at the age of 5 or 6, or if it's a girl, into dancing, etc., to keeping them off the streets and also give them insight as to what the future can hold for them. It costs many thousands of dollars to raise one child. If a family can afford more than 2 children (good to have sibling) then they should go for it. I have known families during the 50s to 70s where there were 5 - 8 kids in a family and they were all well adjusted kids, not to mention the oldest child always ends up helping mom and pop out. Large families can be fun, but if you can't afford it this can cause a great deal of pressure on the parents and either shorten their life span or end in divorce.


Children From Small Families Fare Better Than Children From Large Families-Here's Why!
http://gmwilliams.hubpages.com/hub/...are-better-than-children-from-larger-families


A world map showing countries by total fertility rate (TFR), according to the CIA World Factbook's 2013 data.[TABLE="class: multicol, width: 546"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"] 7–8 Children
6–7 Children
5–6 Children
4–5 Children[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] 3–4 Children
2–3 Children
1–2 Children
0–1 Children[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate


The senior citizen in this site may have the grandiose idea of populating the world with our own genes, but the younger generation has a life to live.






You





tats on it, but it has since changed.If a family can afford more than 2 children (good to have sibling) then they should go for it. I have known families during the 50s to 70s where there were 5 - 8 kids in a family and they were all well adjusted kids, not to mention the oldest child always ends up helping mom and pop out. Large families can be fun, but if you can't afford it this can cause a great deal of pressure on the parents and either shorten their life span or end in divorce. To have a large family you have to be well organized. If you are interested, please rent the DVD of "Cheaper By The Dozen" the first version has Henry Fonda and Lucille Ball in it and together they have 11 children and

 

[v arun kumar]

It is all so well for the community to have a sense of identify within the geographical confines of TN. Step out of the state and one gets starting to be disoriented . What do we as a community idenfity ourself with, our lifestyle ? our beliefs ? our practices ? none of these stand the test of time when the members of the community go out on the streets, outside of the state of TN. what is that we want to protect, the world has changed, the children go out to world which is alien to them, we preach things at home which are not at all relevant outside, if any thing leading a good life is now associated with living in the best of the condominiums, eating at pizza hut,(so what if it is a Saturday, no palaharams, poondu pota palaharam dan. ) children like momos better than kohakattais, golgappas better than upmas, In such a scenario, do we have a set believes, learnings, culture that needs to be propagated to the young, is it relevant to the times, how do they relate to things that they learn at home,(ecchai panada da) with the sharing of samosa from the same plate outside, these are few and many more of the challenges that we have to meet if we are to remain with a unique identity.

 

[biswa]

Dear Vgane Sir,

I have seen many tambrams living in the U S of A having 3 children. But the problem is that when the children grow up,

they are unable to find tambram partner willing to relocate and hence choose the partner from other religions. I already

wrote that none of the three children of my sister in law could choose any brahm spouse! Sad indeed!!

This is kind of expected when we talk about the US of A isnt it? What is the fraction of TB there? 0.0001% ? What is the chance that you will meeting a like minded one? Specially if you are in the hinterlands. Once you are in a foreign country which does not care about castes one way or another, expectations should be different IMHO.

 

[kunjuppu]

There was a very good Neeya-Naana talk show in Vijay TV, couple of months before, on the same topic. The conclusion was mostly towards encouraging more than 1 child which would help having a lively & cheerful home and helping the child grow effectively as well. The only thing is, this topic in the show was in common for all the caste community.

ravi, i also watched that show. incidentally, all the participants (unusually for neeya naana) were hindus (or had hindu names and the females had kungumam on their forehead), of all castes, from the look of it.

i think, with increased prosperity, folks tend to have smaller families. i read a few weeks ago, in the hindu online, that the next set of labour will be coming from bimaru states, as these have the highest fertility and also the highest poverty.

tamil nadu has always been the leader in family planning, thanks to the influence of reformers. as a result it has lost, i think, 2 lok sabha seats, due to comparative population weight when compared to others. ie to 39 from 41. i may be wrong here though.

 

[C RAVI]

ravi, i also watched that show. incidentally, all the participants (unusually for neeya naana) were hindus (or had hindu names and the females had kungumam on their forehead), of all castes, from the look of it.

i think, with increased prosperity, folks tend to have smaller families. i read a few weeks ago, in the hindu online, that the next set of labour will be coming from bimaru states, as these have the highest fertility and also the highest poverty.

tamil nadu has always been the leader in family planning, thanks to the influence of reformers. as a result it has lost, i think, 2 lok sabha seats, due to comparative population weight when compared to others. ie to 39 from 41. i may be wrong here though.

Shri Kunjuppu,

Yes!!! There are pros and cons in anything that we choose. Everything has its reasonability and justification, benefits and comforts.

What bothers me is, even well to do couples who are healthy and could have more than 1 child seem to be inclined towards having Only 1 Child. The irony that makes me feel is- the more people are moving towards comfort zones with the help of technology, the more people seem to feel suffocated with more members in a family relationship, no matter how high is their economic standard.

 

[vgane]

Let us get personal, this is not to get up on a soap box and preach time. How many kids did you raise? if you did ask them how many they are going to raise? Get a feel among your personal circle? I am the youngest in my family all my sibling had 2 or less children. Some of cousins did not marry and others did not have children at all. Among my nephews an nieces no body has more than 2 child.

What with the demand on parents time being a premium in the high pressure world, it is difficult to raise children. Middle class families want their children to be more successful than themselves so allocate the resources accordingly.

So to sit an ivory tower and proclaim that the next generation should procreate more children is fruitless.

Young people on this site who think they can do better, should get married and raise religious kids at home.

Some other interesting reads:
A Small Family is a Happy Family : By Karan Kapoor
http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Small-Family-is-a-Happy-Family&id=2326864

It's not necessarily a fact that small families are the best, but the fact that raising just one child is extremely expensive. There is the hospital bill, one must have good medical/dental (very expensive) for those toothaches, possible braces, fevers, scrapes, childhood diseases, not to mention the many shots children get during their younger years. There is clothing, food, a good home to live in, education and other hidden costs. Your child is better adjusted if they (a boy) are put into a sport at the age of 5 or 6, or if it's a girl, into dancing, etc., to keeping them off the streets and also give them insight as to what the future can hold for them. It costs many thousands of dollars to raise one child. If a family can afford more than 2 children (good to have sibling) then they should go for it. I have known families during the 50s to 70s where there were 5 - 8 kids in a family and they were all well adjusted kids, not to mention the oldest child always ends up helping mom and pop out. Large families can be fun, but if you can't afford it this can cause a great deal of pressure on the parents and either shorten their life span or end in divorce.


Children From Small Families Fare Better Than Children From Large Families-Here's Why!
Children From Small Families Fare Better Than Children From Large Families-Here's Why!
View attachment 3091

A world map showing countries by total fertility rate (TFR), according to the CIA World Factbook's 2013 data.[TABLE="class: multicol, width: 546"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"] 7–8 Children
6–7 Children
5–6 Children
4–5 Children[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] 3–4 Children
2–3 Children
1–2 Children
0–1 Children[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Total fertility rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The senior citizen in this site may have the grandiose idea of populating the world with our own genes, but the younger generation has a life to live. to have sibling) then they should go for it. I have known families during the 50s to 70s where there were 5 - 8 kids in a family and they were all well adjusted kids, not to mention the oldest child always ends up helping mom and pop out. Large families can be fun, but if you can't afford it this can cause a great deal of pressure on the parents and either shorten their life span or end in divorce. To have a large family you have to be well organized. If you are interested, please rent the DVD of "Cheaper By The Dozen" the first version has Henry Fonda and Lucille Ball in it and together they have 11 children and

We are not preaching others...I had 20 maternal & paternal cousins who had on an average of 2 kids..The children of cousins are having just about 0.6 kids ..May be as some are yet to be married may be it goes to 0.7 or at most 0.8 not beyond that...This is the practical reality...May be in the next generation it is less than 0.5

As shared by Sravna these are symptoms...May be they wish to enjoy life with just 1 kid or even no kid

We are questioning that..Our Tambrahm community becomes diluted in foreign shores because of low population of community & also cultural onslaught in society

How about Chennai or Bangalore or even Hyderabad?

Can Brahmins work together to solve this problem...If we are diluted without any binding force we wither away

Let us not compare with foreign examples...Having 2 kids is not a big deal unless you have some real medical issue such as old age (woman above 35 years), High BP, Caesarian operation impact or even partial infertility

Our community is not so poor that we cannot rear 2 kids (In fact poor people rear more than 3 kids)