Procreate or Perish

[biswa]

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Why do you say diluted and not strengthened? Let's say some TB marries a Sikh and the offspring can run like Milkha Singh. Is that such a bad thing?

Have you seen how too much inbreeding affects the thoroughbred race horses? Some can race really fast and then they break a leg and all that is left for them is a bullet to the head.

 

[renuka]

The objective of thread is about the low fertility in Brahmin...Of course we are not taking about 6 or 8 kids that our grand mothers and great grand mothers had

We are talking about 2-3 kids & that too for couples who have the wherewithals

Where is the question of quality getting compromised?

Dear Sir,

Education costs a lot these days out here.

I believe in giving a kick start to a child's life..that is :

1)Provide education up to post graduate level.

2)Buy a car before a child starts start work

3)Buy a house/property in child's name etc


So that when they start work they do not have to start from square one and save to buy a car or house etc and they can concentrate on finer things in life besides their work.

If there is more than 1 or 2 children..it would be difficult to be providing for everyone cars/houses/property etc.

So for me if you ask me the best number is still 1 child.

I am not too concerned about the population of a race/community etc cos technically it is the same Atma that gets recycled from life to life and being a person of mix caste origin I do not feel acute affinity to any one caste or community.

 

[Nara]

Why do you say diluted and not strengthened? Let's say some TB marries a Sikh and the offspring can run like Milkha Singh. Is that such a bad thing?

Have you seen how too much inbreeding affects the thoroughbred race horses? Some can race really fast and then they break a leg and all that is left for them is a bullet to the head.

Well, what about jAti purity? Procreate for caste purity or perish, there is nothing in between, uteruses must be protected at all cost, even if it means the kind of mind set that leads some lunatic to proclaim he rather cut up and throw his daughter in the river. More than sixtyfive years after independence that proclaimed all are equal some heads are still stuck in the jAti pride something that thrives where sun don't shine ....

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... Children are considered burden and are not willing to nurture more than one. They spoil their one and the only one child by keep pampering the single child and tend to make them arrogant, uncompromising, carefree etc.etc. ..........

Dear Ravi,
You have not seen my only son! eep:

 

[Raji Ram]

Well, what about jAti purity? Procreate for caste purity or perish, there is nothing in between, uteruses must be protected at all cost, even if it means the kind of mind set that leads some lunatic to proclaim he rather cut up and throw his daughter in the river. More than sixtyfive years after independence that proclaimed all are equal some heads are still stuck in the jAti pride something that thrives where sun don't shine ....

Dear Prof Sir,

This 'honor killing' is ONLY when the daughter selects a guy from a lower jAthi. You must be knowing that even in olden days,

a girl from a lower varNA was permitted to wed a guy from a higher varNA and not the other way!!

 

[renuka]

Dear Ravi,
You have not seen my only son! eep:

Dear RR ji ,

You are right..I too have an only child.

Most people think that only child means pampering etc and they grow up arrogant etc.

It all depends on how the parents guide their kids.

Last week my son came back sad from school cos he said some University students had come to his school to promote healthy eating for kids.

He said the main speaker started ridiculing a boy who was obese and told the crowd that if you over eat you will end up looking like this boy and the next time when you want to over eat have a mental image of this obese boy in your mind.

My son said he was shocked to hear that and felt sad that none of the teachers even tried to intervene and stop the speaker from insulting the student and at the same time my son said he felt very sad for his friend(the boy) who was mad fun of by the speaker.

I was also shocked to know this that no teacher had stood up for the boy.

Well.. my son is an only child and caring and loving.

I know many people who are only children and well balanced.

Arrogance can be seen in anyone..not solely in only children.

 

[vgane]

Dear Ravi,
You have not seen my only son! eep:

Dear RR Madam,

You have a wonder kid! Same with Doctor Madam too!

Fact of the matter is that when the child does not have any body at home of his or her age group(+- 3-5 years) the child is unable to have anybody to fall back but for parents!

There is a lot that we can learn from our own sisters and brothers as we grow up

 

[renuka]

There is a lot that we can learn from our own sisters and brothers as we grow up

Dear Sir,

Yes and No.

All I remember as a child is trying to stop fights between my elder bro and younger bro..they used to fight like cats and dogs!LOL

Now they are OK but as we age we realize that brothers or sisters are just play mates and when we grow older we are totally on our own and have to face life ourselves eventually.

Reality is we are actually Lone Rangers in the journey called Life.

Adi Shankara did not say 'Gatistvam Gatistvam Tvam Eka Bhavani" for nothing at all.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear RR Madam,

You have a wonder kid! Same with Doctor Madam too!

Fact of the matter is that when the child does not have any body at home of his or her age group(+- 3-5 years) the child is unable to have anybody to fall back but for parents!

There is a lot that we can learn from our own sisters and brothers as we grow up

​Exactly!!

 

[renuka]

Dear Vgane sir,

Since I am the only daughter with 2 brothers many people have told me that I do not know anything about the beauty of having a sister.

Now I have a son and people tell me that I do not know the beauty of having a daughter.

One person even told me that everyone in life besides my mother is a male!LOL

Even when I was being viewed by my husband's side...my FIL asked me "You do not have a sister..dont you feel you missed out something in life?"

I replied to him "what the mind does not know the mind wont miss"

So the same goes for the number of siblings..if we are born with siblings we can not imagine how would it be to be a single child and hence feel that being single child is not a good option.

Those who are single children also wont be able to imagine how life with siblings will be and might think life with sibling might not be a good option..so as I said "what the mind does not know..the mind wont miss"

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Vgane sir,

Since I am the only daughter with 2 brothers many people have told me that I do not know anything about the beauty of having a sister.

Now I have a son and people tell me that I do not know the beauty of having a daughter.

One person even told me that everyone in life besides my mother is a male!LOL

Even when I was being viewed by my husband's side...my FIL asked me "You do not have a sister..dont you feel you missed out something in life?"

I replied to him "what the mind does not know the mind wont miss"

So the same goes for the number of siblings..if we are born with siblings we can not imagine how would it be to be a single child and hence feel that being single child is not a good option.

Those who are single children also wont be able to imagine how life with siblings will be and might think life with sibling might not be a good option..so as I said "what the mind does not know..the mind wont miss"

A single girl child interacts with many other outsiders through out the growing process as much as a single boy child does. These single kids without siblings get to know how their friends are comfortable and enjoying in many many aspects, having 1 or 2 siblings.

I have come across couple of guys who are their parent's single child and have found them grumbling many times about not having a sibling (a brother or a sister). In their child hood age they could not have company of their sibling at home; they had to depend on their friends to give company for their personal work outside the home, to play, just to spend time together etc..etc; when they grow up they had to burden themselves to carry on outside work for their home on behalf of their parents.

Such single grown up child has to bear lots of emotional pains and insecurity concerning their parents when they had to go away from their parents, for their educational & career prospects, leaving behind their parents.

There are many things in life that can be listed out to show how a single child is burdened in due course of time and how he/she misses many of the charms of living, interacting, sharing etc. with a sibling who can be more trustworthy than an outsider.

Parents can as well realize later that how they been wrong having only 1 child. Whether the child turn out to be good or bad to the parents, the single person got his/her limitations while striving hard to live his/her personal life.

 

[renuka]

A single girl child interacts with many other outsiders through out the growing process as much as a single boy child does. These single kids without siblings get to know how their friends are comfortable and enjoying in many many aspects, having 1 or 2 siblings.

I have come across couple of guys who are their parent's single child and have found them grumbling many times about not having a sibling (a brother or a sister). In their child hood age they could not have company of their sibling at home; they had to depend on their friends to give company for their personal work outside the home, to play, just to spend time together etc..etc; when they grow up they had to burden themselves to carry on outside work for their home on behalf of their parents.

Such single grown up child has to bear lots of emotional pains and insecurity concerning their parents when they had to go away from their parents, for their educational & career prospects, leaving behind their parents.

There are many things in life that can be listed out to show how a single child is burdened in due course of time and how he/she misses many of the charms of living, interacting, sharing etc. with a sibling who can be more trustworthy than an outsider.

Parents can as well realize later that how they been wrong having only 1 child. Whether the child turn out to be good or bad to the parents, the single person got his/her limitations while striving hard to live his/her personal life.

As I said earlier...'what the mind does not know the mind won't miss"

And in later stages of life one realizes that it is our own journey..so even if we have 10 siblings or no sibling..we still go alone.

 

[C RAVI]

As I said earlier...'what the mind does not know the mind won't miss"

And in later stages of life one realizes that it is our own journey..so even if we have 10 siblings or no sibling..we still go alone.

If every one is so realized Gnyani then why should one go for a marriage and a child at first place, in general?

It is a well known fact that every one need to experience life personally, gain, lose, manage and go all alone at the end. In such a case I wonder why folks across the Globe with such basic understanding opt for marriage and having at least 1 child?

To me it seems, folks as grown up adults are calculative to live their life with comfort, thinking only about their preferences and easiness, make their choices/decisions accordingly and justify them all with such spiritual philosophies..LOL!!

Let us talk objectively on the subject in the mundane level rather reckoning spiritual philosophies.

If Spiritual philosophies are the Only mantra of our living, we would not be present her even to interact through this cyber world.

------------------

My personal request to well settled and well to do couples/parents who are healthy -

"At least go for two child so that the child can also enjoy the charm of sibling relationship just like you guys had. Kindly do not deprive your child with such a life time opportunity due your priorities of comfort. Provide good parenting, care, love, education to children and let them build/form and prosper themselves with all their good character, attitude, knowledge, experiences and buy their own house, own car etc. Let them understand the value of righteous hard work, money earned and take pride in their achievements rather spoon feeding them everything."

 

[kunjuppu]

i come from a small family of 2. mrs K has 4 siblings. when we married, i wanted 4 kids, but due to circumstances, we settled for 3. 3 i found is a good number, atleast for me. my chithi has 3 children, and i have heard my cousin say that 3 is a good number. i tend to agree.

having said that, i find that most of my nieces and nephews late 20s or early 30s have no children, more so in india than abroad. in india, one niece had a son 2 years ago, and found it such a problem to raise it - herself, her mother and her grand mother together could not manage this little boy. i think she is stopping with one. as the grand mother said, even with just one, she is unable to manage it.

nowadays, girls, with education & career in mind, think like the boys of old - ie jobs, career etc. child rearing and cooking and house keeping, are last things in their mind. and unlike what my mother did to my sister, today's teenage girls are not introduced to cooking and such. this is the way i think the vast majority of our community have moved.

.. and it appears that other tamil communities are moving in the same direction. with the education of women and their empowerment, the old standards and values have changed. and so be it. while some of us may rue the loss of large families, and the future impact of our current procreation trends, all i can is, that none of us can predict the future. we tend to measure 'what is coming' with our own limited visions. what really happens is not all so bad after all.

i have seen this in the changing face of canada over past 40 years - from an almost lily white country to one of several hues and shapes. whereas a non white dil or sil would have raised eyebrows in the 70s or 80s, today, it is treated as just another event without any fuss. with the change of times, and when faced with different realities, our values too will change. that i am sure. after all, just look at ourselves now, and how much we as a community have changed in the past 50 years. with this in mind, how can we predict our attitudes, 50 years hence?

 

[renuka]

If every one is so realized Gnyani then why should one go for a marriage and a child at first place, in general?

It is a well known fact that every one need to experience life personally, gain, lose, manage and go all alone at the end. In such a case I wonder why folks across the Globe with such basic understanding opt for marriage and having at least 1 child?

To me it seems, folks as grown up adults are calculative to live their life with comfort, thinking only about their preferences and easiness, make their choices/decisions accordingly and justify them all with such spiritual philosophies..LOL!!

Let us talk objectively on the subject in the mundane level rather reckoning spiritual philosophies.

If Spiritual philosophies are the Only mantra of our living, we would not be present her even to interact through this cyber world.

------------------

My personal request to well settled and well to do couples/parents who are healthy -

"At least go for two child so that the child can also enjoy the charm of sibling relationship just like you guys had. Kindly do not deprive your child with such a life time opportunity due your priorities of comfort. Provide good parenting, care, love, education to children and let them build/form and prosper themselves with all their good character, attitude, knowledge, experiences and buy their own house, own car etc. Let them understand the value of righteous hard work, money earned and take pride in their achievements rather spoon feeding them everything."

I am no Jnaani but I am speaking from experience that too 1st hand experience of being married and having been pregnant and having a child.

Pregnancy can be Ok but post delivery can be testing to one's patience and tolerance.

Till the child is at least 2 years old..one hardly gets rest and proper sleep and this can take toll on our general well being too.

So after going through pregnancy once not all woman would like to go through that phase again.

I am being honest here..not selfish etc..not many women will admit that pregnancy and post delivery takes toll on us..cos they fear being labelled an unfit mother.

For a man there is nothing..there are no hormonal changes..no bodily changes..no mood changes etc.

As a bachelor that too a male..I doubt you can ever understand the changes a woman goes thru during pregnancy and post pregnancy.

So it is not easy for you to generalize that people are selfish etc when they decide to have less children..that is purely a personal choice..I have no problems if people opt not to have kids or have even 10 as long they are happy with their personal choice.

One does not have to be Jnaani to realize that we come alone and go alone..I have never seen mass graves unless during some Tsunami or Earth Quake!

BTW why are you advocating 2 kids..you know for some communities out here 2 kids is considered too less..so just becos you like 2 that does not mean everyone has to follow what you feel is right..as I said..the number of kids is a personal choice..some opt for none..some for one and some for 10!

Just to add I do not feel having a sibling adds anything extra special..even though I have 2 brothers we never had any similar interest and I always hung out with my mum and my dog. To me I felt I lead my own life.

 

[sangom]

< snipped >

i have seen this in the changing face of canada over past 40 years - from an almost lily white country to one of several hues and shapes. whereas a non white dil or sil would have raised eyebrows in the 70s or 80s, today, it is treated as just another event without any fuss. with the change of times, and when faced with different realities, our values too will change. that i am sure. after all, just look at ourselves now, and how much we as a community have changed in the past 50 years. with this in mind, how can we predict our attitudes, 50 years hence?

Dear Kunjuppu,

While I agree with the above observation in a general way, don't you think our present wisdom is adequate enough to show that at least in India, the tabra girls are very unlikely to go back to the old ways of being housewives and mothers only, depending on the income of the husband. If anything, the present situation is that we may soon have households with "househusbands" who, failing to get any satisfactory jobs, will settle down to managing the household, looking after the kids (which are given birth to by the mothers, of course!) and trying to earn whatever little they can, by "working from home" kind of jobs.

Perhaps that will be the point of departure when the girls will merrily give birth to 4 or even 5 kids, depending upon their income levels, and leave the husbands to the rest of the task of "bringing up" children.

 

[Nara]

This 'honor killing' is ONLY when the daughter selects a guy from a lower jAthi.

Dear Mrs. RR, I don't understand your point. My point was about the mindset that values jAti purity over the happiness of our own children. This guy on Neeya Naana was stupid enough to say he would cut up his girl is she married a lower jAti boy, and would cut all contact with her but not cut her up if she marries an upper varna boy. My guess is he would do neither if it comes down to it. Those in this forum who vehemently oppose IC/IR marriages are no different from this silly man, except their rhetoric does not include cutting the girl up.

You must be knowing that even in olden days, a girl from a lower varNA was permitted to wed a guy from a higher varNA and not the other way!!

What this means is the boy can get his way but not his sister. This is what the girls see all around and they are not taking it anymore like you women did when you were girls. (by "you" I don't mean you Mrs. RR in particular, it is a general "you" covering all women with young adult children.)

I find it funny that old fogies like myself talking about love, why boys and girls fall in love, and that all this is only INFATUATION, yes, they use capital letters to show how certain they are about it. Gopinath himself took this issue head on and asked this silly man whether he has not felt some stirring for a girl in his youth and he had to admit to it. Who among us can say they never had such tender feelings for a sweetheart in their youth? If anybody does, surely there is something wrong with him or her, or it is a lie. We are from a different generation, diffident, lacking in courage, very little opportunity to express our feelings and such feelings had to be consigned to deep crevices of our minds.

Times are different. Girls and boys today are no longer shy, and opportunities galore. Resisting this only brings grief for everyone. The wannabe Brahmins love to compare themselves to the Jews, so I say, why not take a page from their playbook and accept IC/IR and make sure the children of these marriages are raised in a Brahmin cultural way? Being the girls parents you will have more say in this matter than the boy's parents.

The older people can hope the youngsters will marry within jAti and will have more babies, earlier and faster, but it ain't happening folks. Look for more practical solutions to keep your Brahmin traditions going.

regards ...

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Kunjuppu,

While I agree with the above observation in a general way, don't you think our present wisdom is adequate enough to show that at least in India, the tabra girls are very unlikely to go back to the old ways of being housewives and mothers only, depending on the income of the husband. If anything, the present situation is that we may soon have households with "househusbands" who, failing to get any satisfactory jobs, will settle down to managing the household, looking after the kids (which are given birth to by the mothers, of course!) and trying to earn whatever little they can, by "working from home" kind of jobs.

Perhaps that will be the point of departure when the girls will merrily give birth to 4 or even 5 kids, depending upon their income levels, and leave the husbands to the rest of the task of "bringing up" children.

:lol:


But, ironically only a women/wife got to go through pregnancy/delivery phases and suffer hell during pregnancy and post pregnancy!!

 

[v arun kumar]

My personal request to well settled and well to do couples/parents who are healthy -

"At least go for two child so that the child can also enjoy the charm of sibling relationship just like you guys had. Kindly do not deprive your child with such a life time opportunity due your priorities of comfort. Provide good parenting, care, love, education to children and let them build/form and prosper themselves with all their good character, attitude, knowledge, experiences and buy their own house, own car etc. Let them understand the value of righteous hard work, money earned and take pride in their achievements rather spoon feeding them everything."

[/QUOTE]
I fully agree, sibling company is something which is very comforting and need of the hour, when the parents are away for 14 hours a day, both for emotional support, vigilance and mental health of the children there needs to be more than one, one suddenly realises that given the widening gap of understanding with cousins, life can be very lonely if a person unfortunately loses his parents early. yes in most cases siblings fight and follow their own path in life, but reunite when it really matters, and those precious moments of union more than make up for all the differences they may have as individuals. same cannot be said for friends or distant relatives

 

[v arun kumar]

[Perhaps that will be the point of departure when the girls will merrily give birth to 4 or even 5 kids, depending upon their income levels, and leave the husbands to the rest of the task of "bringing up" children.
[/QUOTE]

In a competitive world, where will the female ever get the time to give birth to 4 or 5 kids ? its not like making a chappati, or idli for gods sake. getting a maternity leave for two kids is a bother, although the companies will oblige because of legal compulsions, what ensures that they are left behind in the rat race when they are away giving birth. that's what normaly happens, some one else takes over your portfolio, and that's it you are redundant when u come back, full of aches and pains.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,

While I agree with the above observation in a general way, don't you think our present wisdom is adequate enough to show that at least in India, the tabra girls are very unlikely to go back to the old ways of being housewives and mothers only, depending on the income of the husband. If anything, the present situation is that we may soon have households with "househusbands" who, failing to get any satisfactory jobs, will settle down to managing the household, looking after the kids (which are given birth to by the mothers, of course!) and trying to earn whatever little they can, by "working from home" kind of jobs.

Perhaps that will be the point of departure when the girls will merrily give birth to 4 or even 5 kids, depending upon their income levels, and leave the husbands to the rest of the task of "bringing up" children.

dear sangom,

this situation is a reality here in canada, though not in large numbers. many fathers who can work out of home, in jobs like consultants, artistes and such, are very happy being a housebound, taking care of the kids.

the mothers go outside the house to work. like everything else, nowadays, nothing raises an eyebrow, in toronto, atleast where i live.

behind my house, there is a gay couple. out of the sperm of one, one of his cousins bore him a baby boy. the gay men are among the most caring and happiest of parents i have seen. one of them took a year leave of absence to take care of the baby.

now comes the punchline. these are of indian ancestry

 

[v arun kumar]

LOL while we are discussing the IC/IR marriages out there, I see a Advertising flashing on the site on my left hand corner, about ARYA SAMAJ MARRIAGE - CAN BE ARRANGED IN ONE DAY.:wof:

 

[kunjuppu]

LOL while we are discussing the IC/IR marriages out there, I see a Advertising flashing on the site on my left hand corner, about ARYA SAMAJ MARRIAGE - CAN BE ARRANGED IN ONE DAY.:wof:

.. and the ad on my left corner reads 'i have gained 2 cups in weeks'.. for natural breast cream :cheer2: :kev:

for the unbelievers, i copied the image and pasting it below.



and the above is better than the islamic marriage ads that i normally find at that spot!!

 

[biswa]

The wannabe Brahmins love to compare themselves to the Jews, so I say, why not take a page from their playbook and accept IC/IR and make sure the children of these marriages are raised in a Brahmin cultural way? Being the girls parents you will have more say in this matter than the boy's parents.

Absolutely true. Nowadays the mother has far more control about how the children grow up than the father. The mother has more chance to sow the seeds of "Brahminism" or any other culture in the children. If people believe in caste, I think the caste of the children should follow the mother than the father, in the present age. That solves the ICM part of the "procreate or perish problem" right?

 

[biswa]

.. and the ad on my left corner reads 'i have gained 2 cups in weeks'.. for natural breast cream :cheer2: :kev:

for the unbelievers, i copied the image and pasting it below.

View attachment 3092

and the above is better than the islamic marriage ads that i normally find at that spot!!

Mr K, regardless, we should click some of the ads (closing our eyes if necessary) so that the site can generate some revenue. Words are cheap.