Reverse wired nostrils

[Nara]

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Both could have avoided some name calling

I reject this false equivalency. ...

 

[Vaagmi]

I reject this false equivalency. ...

I, for once, agree with Nara. Yes I too reject this false equivalency.........

 

[Nara]

.....Thus, for 'us people', சேஷம் and எச்சில் were and are two different things altogether.

Dear Sangom, for SVs also, in the most part, but not always, சேஷம் does not include leftover எச்சில். The point I was trying to make was, in as much as சேஷம் means leftover one could interpret it to mean leftover எச்சில் in இலை. But SV Brahmins don't accept it. So, let us take the interpretation their own early acharyas have given, and that is, even if it is a butcher, as long as he is a reformed SV, then, the leftover food (சேடம்) after he has eaten (போனகம் செய்த), is pure (புனிதம்).

Let us look at the practice of SV Brahmins on this standard, one set by their own commentators celebrated by them as the emperor of commentators (வியாக்யான சக்ரவர்த்தி). The more practicing SV Brahmin you are, in other words the more familiar you are with this commentary, the less likely you are to apply this dictum given by the Azhvar and their own commentator. Let us not even talk about reformed butchers, let us take a look at other SV Brahmins themselves within their own circle. One who wants to observe more acharam won't eat if food from the same batch of cooking if some of it has already been served to other SV Brahmins who didn't meet their acharam standard. Can't they find even one SV Brahmin in all these years and all over India who is a worthy bahagavatha among their own kind, let alone an NB one, to accept their சேஷம்?

About எச்சில், there is a story in ஈடு வியாக்யானம் that Ranganatha preferred the எச்சில் of a பாகவதா who would accidently put a சாளிக்ராமம் that he kept in his வெத்திலைப் பாக்கு பொட்டி into his mouth. When another SV retrieved the சாளிக்ராமம் from the offender, he -- i.e. Ranganatha -- made sure the சாளிக்ராமம் was returned to the வெத்திலைப் பாக்கு பொட்டி, so goes their story. So, per their own account, for SVs -- the story doesn't say B or NB -- even their supreme lord loves the எச்சில் of a பாகவதா.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Vaagmi is vadakalai; Nara is ex-vadakalai; There is no thenkalai. Only there is an......kalai and that is Ashwin ash. LOL.

I saw Vaagmi relishing green delicacies. He's vegetarian and mostly eats greens (fresh greens, I presume).

Perhaps people dump garbage near his home, as is peoples' wont all over India, keep surroundings unclean (although green awareness is growing). Perhaps he holds a big post in the Corporation and gotten a dump installed near his home to keep his surroundings clean. Or he doesn't. Green initiatives are to be praised, segregate garbage.

Btw, I am not Aiyyangar, nor will I ever be one. Vaagmi, please give some work to your upstairs, do not be idle. And eat stuff other than greens too.

 

[Nara]

.... Earlier when you presented your spurious interpretation it was shown its place in this forum by suraju and you did not have an answer.

[....]

Bring such a human being and SVs irrespective of kalais will show respect to him without bothering about his jAti. When did you try this? Please let me know. Also the result......

Rewriting history will be easy if there was no archive. The truth is the task of getting suraju to address the question was like கல்லிலிருந்து நாறு உரிக்கிறது. Things have not changed much since then, the question I raised at that time about தொழுமின், கொடுமின், கொள்மின் still remains unanswered.

The crux of the question I raised was, to what extent the Brahmin commentator's interpretation of this phrase, to which SV Brahmins lend the utmost reverential lip service, has been put into actual practice by the SV groups? I give below the exact text from the commentary for தொழுமின், கொடுமின், கொள்மின்:

நிஹீன குலத்தில் பிறந்தவர்களேயாகிலும் [...] ஜ்ஞாநாநுகூலமான ஸ்வாசாரத்தை உடையராகில் [....] நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் [....] ஜ்ஞாநாபேக்ஷை பண்ணில் நீங்கள் ஆதரித்து சொல்லுங்கோள்; அவர்கள் பகவத் ஜ்ஞானத்தை உங்களுக்கு பிரஸாதிக்கில் கேட்டு க்ருதாரதர் ஆகுங்கோள்​

Rough translation to ease the pain for those who have difficulty reading the above, please don't rely on my translation:

நிஹீன குலத்தில் பிறந்தவர்களேயாகிலும் = even if born in lowly caste
ஜ்ஞாநாநுகூலமான ஸ்வாசாரத்தை உடையராகில் = if they possess/follow their own practices borne out of wisdom
நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் = fall at their feet
ஜ்ஞாநாபேக்ஷை பண்ணில் நீங்கள் ஆதரித்து சொல்லுங்கோள் = if they seek knowledge from you, support them and teach them
அவர்கள் பகவத் ஜ்ஞானத்தை உங்களுக்க்கு பிரஸாதிக்கில் கேட்டு க்ருதாரதர் ஆகுங்கோள் = if they offer knowledge about Ishwara, listen to them and be satisfied

disclaimer: the translation is mine, my arguments are not based on my translation


​

We do have a real life example in Joseph Iyengar. By all accounts he fits the bill the commentator has described above. How many Iyengars will fall at his feet, will take பகவத் ஜ்ஞானம் from him, or have him as a sishya in a kalakshepam of Sri Bhashyam or even Gita? May be some, and I salute them, but would that be approved by the acharyas?

Folks, consider Pope Francis washing and kissing the feet of prisoners, among them a woman and a muslim. What a dramatic acknowledgement of dignity of human beings. Let alone jailed prisoners, do you think a jeeyar of one of the matams or one of the Andavan swamees will invite Joseph Iyengar, wash his feet and drink the ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம். The proverbial snowflake has a better chance of survival in hell. Yet, this is exactly what the SV Brahmin commentator says the phrase கொடுமின் கொள்மின் also means. Take a look:

கொடுமின் கொள்மின் என்று ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்த வைபவ பரமாகவுமாம் .... தீர்த்தம் கொண்மின் கொடுங்கோள்​

To offer reverential lip service to Azhvars and early acharyas is easy, to put to practice what they said, well, that is an entirely different story.

 

[indianassault]

Vaagmi is vadakalai; Nara is ex-vadakalai; There is no thenkalai. Only there is an......kalai and that is Ashwin ash. LOL.

Vada kalai or Then kalai, forum la Ore Kalaai than pongo....besh besh...

One more relevant question here, I am an Iyer but hardly visit Sivan temples. But I have never seen Iyns visiting a Sivan temple . Also they go around only teh Perumal sannidhis, whereas we go around all the sannidhis..Why is it so??

 

[Vaagmi]

I saw Vaagmi relishing green delicacies. He's vegetarian and mostly eats greens (fresh greens, I presume).

Perhaps people dump garbage near his home, as is peoples' wont all over India, keep surroundings unclean (although green awareness is growing). Perhaps he holds a big post in the Corporation and gotten a dump installed near his home to keep his surroundings clean. Or he doesn't. Green initiatives are to be praised, segregate garbage.

Btw, I am not Aiyyangar, nor will I ever be one. Vaagmi, please give some work to your upstairs, do not be idle. And eat stuff other than greens too.

Hi Ash,

Reading my posts, livid with anger and going green (for a change) - ? LOL. Cool down yaar. The world is not going to come to an end tomorrow. I am not any high official in the Chennai Corporation. You have given me an idea . I must befriend a high official in the Corporation posthaste. I can ask him and get a dump built next door to your house so that all garbage can be brought and dumped there.

You do not want to be an iyengar? A cute one of sweet sixteen here says good riddance and I am able to hear that and more. When you are below in the basement how can I go upstairs. We respect our guests. Either we go up together or go down. For a change eat something red to change your color. You look funny man.

 

[Vaagmi]

Rewriting history will be easy if there was no archive. The truth is the task of getting suraju to address the question was like கல்லிலிருந்து நாறு உரிக்கிறது. Things have not changed much since then, the question I raised at that time about தொழுமின், கொடுமின், கொள்மின் still remains unanswered.
The crux of the question I raised was, to what extent the Brahmin commentator's interpretation of this phrase, to which SV Brahmins lend the utmost reverential lip service, has been put into actual practice by the SV groups? I give below the exact text from the commentary for தொழுமின், கொடுமின், கொள்மின்:

நிஹீன குலத்தில் பிறந்தவர்களேயாகிலும் [...] ஜ்ஞாநாநுகூலமான ஸ்வாசாரத்தை உடையராகில் [....] நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் [....] ஜ்ஞாநாபேக்ஷை பண்ணில் நீங்கள் ஆதரித்து சொல்லுங்கோள்; அவர்கள் பகவத் ஜ்ஞானத்தை உங்களுக்கு பிரஸாதிக்கில் கேட்டு க்ருதாரதர் ஆகுங்கோள்​

Rough translation to ease the pain for those who have difficulty reading the above, please don't rely on my translation:

நிஹீன குலத்தில் பிறந்தவர்களேயாகிலும் = even if born in lowly caste
ஜ்ஞாநாநுகூலமான ஸ்வாசாரத்தை உடையராகில் = if they possess/follow their own practices borne out of wisdom
நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் = fall at their feet
ஜ்ஞாநாபேக்ஷை பண்ணில் நீங்கள் ஆதரித்து சொல்லுங்கோள் = if they seek knowledge from you, support them and teach them
அவர்கள் பகவத் ஜ்ஞானத்தை உங்களுக்க்கு பிரஸாதிக்கில் கேட்டு க்ருதாரதர் ஆகுங்கோள் = if they offer knowledge about Ishwara, listen to them and be satisfied
disclaimer: the translation is mine, my arguments are not based on my translation

We do have a real life example in Joseph Iyengar. By all accounts he fits the bill the commentator has described above. How many Iyengars will fall at his feet, will take பகவத் ஜ்ஞானம் from him, or have him as a sishya in a kalakshepam of Sri Bhashyam or even Gita? May be some, and I salute them, but would that be approved by the acharyas?​

Folks, consider Pope Francis washing and kissing the feet of prisoners, among them a woman and a muslim. What a dramatic acknowledgement of dignity of human beings. Let alone jailed prisoners, do you think a jeeyar of one of the matams or one of the Andavan swamees will invite Joseph Iyengar, wash his feet and drink the ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம். The proverbial snowflake has a better chance of survival in hell. Yet, this is exactly what the SV Brahmin commentator says the phrase கொடுமின் கொள்மின் also means. Take a look:

கொடுமின் கொள்மின் என்று ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்த வைபவ பரமாகவுமாம் .... தீர்த்தம் கொண்மின் கொடுங்கோள்​

To offer reverential lip service to Azhvars and early acharyas is easy, to put to practice what they said, well, that is an entirely different story.

Nara,

I went through the archives long back. But the line of argument by you with suraju was on these lines:

1. kodumin (கொடுமின்) means give the women in marriage to such bhAgavathAs. and kolmin (கொள்மின்) means take women from them in marriage into your family. Thus in Alwar's time they were not bothered about inter-caste marriages whereas in our present times we (means SVs) do not support IC marriages. So Enge Vaishnavam? (எங்கே வைணவம்?) where is vaishnavam gone? was the rhetoric question asked by you with a lot of revolutionary fervor.

Suraju had taken the opposite position as far as the IC and IR marriages are concerned and as a part of his arguments he had quoted the commentators and shown that commentators have clearly concluded that Alwars were not having in their mind the worldly revolutionary notions of IC marriages when they said கொள்மின் or கொடுமின். The Alwars, according to those learned commentators, were advising the SVs to take knowledge from them (such BhAgavathAs) and freely give knowledge to them (without any restrictions based on caste/varna). He had even mentioned that Alwars were divine gifted poets and adding a நேரசை or a நிறையசை to the given சீர் would not have been difficult at all to make it clear that they were talking about taking women and giving women in marriage. That they did not do that goes to settle the issue on the lines suggested by commentators. நேரசை, நிறையசை,சீர் are all terms used in Tamil prosody(யாப்பு) and I am sure you understand them well. Now you have become the Devil's advocate in this case and are arguing the case of suraju by quoting:

நிஹீன குலத்தில் பிறந்தவர்களேயாகிலும் [...] ஜ்ஞாநாநுகூலமான ஸ்வாசாரத்தை உடையராகில் [....] நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் [....] ஜ்ஞாநாபேக்ஷை பண்ணில் நீங்கள் ஆதரித்து சொல்லுங்கோள்; அவர்கள் பகவத் ஜ்ஞானத்தை உங்களுக்கு பிரஸாதிக்கில் கேட்டு க்ருதாரதர் ஆகுங்கோள்

from commentators text. I would like to cut short the long winding repetition of arguments and say just this much only:

Leave alone the orthodox SVs. Are you, Mr Nara-the intellectual, ready to forget your caste/ varna etc. and take a SC/ST boy/girl into your family to give him/her higher education in US? Please do that. That will help you come to terms with yourself quickly. Otherwise all that we discuss here will be just so much of hot air or hypocrisy. Thanks.

 

[krish44]

will someone educate me on ashtabedhas between thengalai and vadagalai. am curious to know

 

[renuka]

Are you, Mr Nara-the intellectual, ready to forget your caste/ varna etc. and take a SC/ST boy/girl into your family to give him/her higher education in US? Please do that. That will help you come to terms with yourself quickly. Otherwise all that we discuss here will be just so much of hot air or hypocrisy. Thanks.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

This is what I do not understand..if a person has given up his caste/varna etc he does not have to proof a point by taking in a person from SC/ST into the family for higher education..he can choose any candidate that is well deserving be it a Brahmin or a SC/ST cos when we do not see caste of a person everyone is the same to us.

Just like some people always say Dr Ambedkar married a Brahmin lady and called him hypocrite for that..technically when he viewed everyone as the same..he could very well marry anyone he loved be it Brahmin or SC/ST or anyone else in between.

A person who has given up his/her caste does not have to be anti his/her own ex caste.

So I feel the person has the freedom to choose who he wants to help based purely on the need for help and not based on caste alone...so Naraji could actually even sponsor a Brahmin kid too if he wants.

 

[Nara]

will someone educate me on ashtabedhas between thengalai and vadagalai. am curious to know

it is ashta-dasa-bedhas, I wrote about them sometime back, search for it in the archives -- BTW, the archives are there for all members ...

 

[Nara]

...1. kodumin (கொடுமின்) means give the women in marriage to such bhAgavathAs. and kolmin (கொள்மின்) means take women from them in marriage into your family. Thus in Alwar's time they were not bothered about inter-caste marriages

Vaagmi, this is false. Give the post number and copy paste my text for the sentence I have highlighted above. Don't just make up things when you run out of facts to argue with.

My focus with suraju, as it is with you now, is to hold the present day SV Brahmins to the standards your own much revered early SV Brahmin acharyas set when they provided commentaries for these azhvar verses. suraju couldn't give a straight answer then, now you can't either, except you are asking me to adopt SC/ST into my family -- two things (a) in what way would that mitigate the hypocrisy of your position, and (b) how do you know whether or not I have done that already?

 

[krish44]

it is ashta-dasa-bedhas, I wrote about them sometime back, search for it in the archives -- BTW, the archives are there for all members ...

this is the second time you have told me this. first how to reach the archives and secondly how do I trace yr post. yo have assumed a lot of intelligence in me

 

[ashwin_ash]

Hi Ash,

Reading my posts, livid with anger and going green (for a change) - ? LOL. Cool down yaar. The world is not going to come to an end tomorrow. I am not any high official in the Chennai Corporation. You have given me an idea . I must befriend a high official in the Corporation posthaste. I can ask him and get a dump built next door to your house so that all garbage can be brought and dumped there.

You do not want to be an iyengar? A cute one of sweet sixteen here says good riddance and I am able to hear that and more. When you are below in the basement how can I go upstairs. We respect our guests. Either we go up together or go down. For a change eat something red to change your color. You look funny man.

Since it's been proven you love green, have you noticed that the leaves you use as plates are green? even used ones.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Leave alone the orthodox SVs. Are you, Mr Nara-the intellectual, ready to forget your caste/ varna etc. and take a SC/ST boy/girl into your family to give him/her higher education in US? Please do that. That will help you come to terms with yourself quickly. Otherwise all that we discuss here will be just so much of hot air or hypocrisy. Thanks.

Vaagmi, you are being casteist and trying to ignite a caste war here. Btw, there's a world of difference between SCs and STs. SCs were historically the oppressed, STs are the original Indians and were never oppressed, they were historically isolated hence deprived of opportunities. Some STs such as the Bishnois, Todas etc are lacto-vegetarians. Bigriver represented the middle castes, while Ambedkar stood for the SCs. Please get your facts right and do not club SCs and STs. Be specific.

 

[Nara]

this is the second time you have told me this. first how to reach the archives and secondly how do I trace yr post. yo have assumed a lot of intelligence in me

and this is the second time you are transferring the burden upon others dear sir.... learn to fish, don't expect it to be handed down to you, all it takes is time, your time, not others ....

Alright, I will give you some pointers ...

[1] When you are in a forum like General Discussion, look on the right side for "Page 1 of nnn" followed by 1 2 3, etc., all clickable. These are pages after pages of threads started in the GD forum going all the way back to the very inception of this web site.

or, alternatively,

[2] Starting from the left side, look for New Posts (you must be logged in) and then move your eyes to the right and locate "Search". Click this link and you can do simple or advanced search. You need to leave at least 20 seconds between two consecutive searches.

Have fun ....

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi ji,

This is what I do not understand..if a person has given up his caste/varna etc he does not have to proof a point by taking in a person from SC/ST into the family for higher education..he can choose any candidate that is well deserving be it a Brahmin or a SC/ST cos when we do not see caste of a person everyone is the same to us.

Just like some people always say Dr Ambedkar married a Brahmin lady and called him hypocrite for that..technically when he viewed everyone as the same..he could very well marry anyone he loved be it Brahmin or SC/ST or anyone else in between.

A person who has given up his/her caste does not have to be anti his/her own ex caste.

So I feel the person has the freedom to choose who he wants to help based purely on the need for help and not based on caste alone...so Naraji could actually even sponsor a Brahmin kid too if he wants.

Now I understand why God provided us a computer. You have learnt a lot of politics from me. I may demand a guru dakshina. LOL.

 

[krish44]

and this is the second time you are transferring the burden upon others dear sir.... learn to fish, don't expect it to be handed down to you, all it takes is time, your time, not others ....

Alright, I will give you some pointers ...

[1] When you are in a forum like General Discussion, look on the right side for "Page 1 of nnn" followed by 1 2 3, etc., all clickable. These are pages after pages of threads started in the GD forum going all the way back to the very inception of this web site.

or, alternatively,

[2] Starting from the left side, look for New Posts (you must be logged in) and then move your eyes to the right and locate "Search". Click this link and you can do simple or advanced search. You need to leave at least 20 seconds between two consecutive searches.

Have fun ....

thanks sir. sorry for wasting yr valuable time

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, you are being casteist and trying to ignite a caste war here. Btw, there's a world of difference between SCs and STs. SCs were historically the oppressed, STs are the original Indians and were never oppressed, they were historically isolated hence deprived of opportunities. Some STs such as the Bishnois, Todas etc are lacto-vegetarians. Bigriver represented the middle castes, while Ambedkar stood for the SCs. Please get your facts right and do not club SCs and STs. Be specific.

Now you have let out a secret. 1. that I am a casteist and 2. that I am trying to ignite a caste war here. Now that matured members here know my intentions there will be no caste war. The entertainment value is gone. LOL.

Though I have lived in different parts of India for sufficiently long, I did not care to find out which community is original and which ones are the colonizers. Thanks for the info.

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, this is false. Give the post number and copy paste my text for the sentence I have highlighted above. Don't just make up things when you run out of facts to argue with.

My focus with suraju, as it is with you now, is to hold the present day SV Brahmins to the standards your own much revered early SV Brahmin acharyas set when they provided commentaries for these azhvar verses. suraju couldn't give a straight answer then, now you can't either, except you are asking me to adopt SC/ST into my family -- two things (a) in what way would that mitigate the hypocrisy of your position, and (b) how do you know whether or not I have done that already?

Come on Nara. You know pretty well about what my position is in the matter of castes and IC/IR marriages. For your convenience let me briefly state it here summarily without going into the u underlying logic and arguments. 1. I believe castes do exist for strong reasons. They have a justification for the existence. Caste atrocities and totemic higher and lower gradation is nonsense. The exploitation and atrocities that flow from such a gradation are condemnable. But castes or Varna by themselves are not such a despicable facet of life. I am not putting forth any arguments on this here because I have done that several times already and people here know that. 2. The Alwars, the evolved souls that they were, never bothered about varna and the poem they wrote which you are quoting was not one in which they spoke about taking women in marriage-that is precisely what was your contention-but about giving and taking knowledge from any bhakta. Now it appears you have come round leaving your earlier position to accept this fact. Now according to you what is left is the SV brahmins of this day should fall at the feet of a true NBbhakta (even if he was a butcher to add hyperbole effect to the point). They should eat the sesham of such a bhakta. I do not think the SV brahmins this day deny respect to such bhaktas. These days no one falls at the feet of others and no one bothers what they eat-sesham or non sesham. So there is nothing to gain by harping on this theme. Tell me if any such bhakta is treated badly. That would make some sense to condemn it. Have you come across such instance? I have not come across any such incident in any of the matoms I visit. The matoms are rather shunned by NBs totally. They, it appears have decided that the matoms are meant only for brahmins and so they never visit these matoms. Rarely do you come across a NB visiting the matom and when he visits he invariably happens to be a political heavy weight or a money bag who is ready to buy the respectful treatment any way without waiting for the pontiff to understand that he is a great bhAgavatha and deserves the treatment recommended by early commentators.

Is this answer straight or not? If it is still not, please take it that Vaagmi is least bothered about a persons caste when it comes to treatment in a temple as a bhakta. But that also does not mean that Vaagmi will give his children in a IC/IR marriage. If this is also not straight please make it straight and take it.

I said about the SC/ST boy being adopted because you have always been giving an impression that your ideas are all that of an arm-chair revolutionary. Earlier too when once I had asked you whether you would positively recommend to your children to marry only outside brahmin community, you evaded a straight answer and gave a cryptic lecture about unconditional love etc., If you have adopted a boy and are supporting him hats off to you. That is the stuff I look up to. My Uncle sold a part of his property to build a primary school in a hamlet of agri. workers and taught in that school for his life time. I have a lot of respect for such people. One such small gesture is better than a lot of lecturing. I made only that point by my demand to you. Now I know you have already done that or will be doing it shortly and I am happy. Thanks.

 

[Nara]

Come on Nara.

Vaagmi, you made up facts about what I said in the past, instead of answering that you are just making up another question which I never asked and giving a long answer that I just have interest in.....

Those who draw false equivalencies please take note of this ....

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, you made up facts about what I said in the past, instead of answering that you are just making up another question which I never asked and giving a long answer that I just have interest in.....

Those who draw false equivalencies please take note of this ....

Yes those who draw false equivalencies please take note of this. கிடப்பது கிடக்கட்டும் கிழவியைத்தூக்கி மணையிலெ வை. I will hang on to one sentence from what you posted and demand, please give me the number of the post posted by me two years back here and now. Otherwise it would just prove that you are falsifying whatever I said. What kind of argument is this? I have better things to do. Nara, what is your case. Are you saying that you never talked about inter caste marriages or that you never loaded your pet theme of IR IC marriages to Alwazr's poem Kolmin KOdumin saying that they were revolutionaries who recommended IC marriages? I would recommend to members here to go to the thread Enge Vaishnavam in the archives and see what this honourable member wrote about alwars and how misinterpreted each and every poem of Alwars and then ended every such laboured exercise with a rhetoric question enge vaishnavem. Yes false equivalence. I would not like to be associated with this member even as an adversary. Thanks.

 

[Nara]

....whether you would positively recommend to your children to marry only outside brahmin community, .

Who my children want to marry is their decision, I only have advisory role, not a decisive one. This is a concept too far for a casteist to understand.

The fact is, I would much rather my daughter marry somebody who is not a brahmin, don't have to deal with the uptight Brahmins during every family get together, but if her choice is a Brahmin, I will have endure it for the sake of my daughter. My son is already married to a lovely and loving young woman -- not a Brahmin, thank the non-existent "god", LOL.

The fact, something that is being covered up, is, the kind of camaraderie amongst Vaishnavas the Azhvars and early SV Brahmin acharyas advocated, something I have already presented without injecting any of my personal beliefs, and I have only given the tip of the iceberg, is being flouted by the SV Brahmins for a while now, and they pay the utmost of the reverential and hypocritical lip service, and they do it in style with panjakaccham and 12 thirumans, to the azhvars and early SV Brahmin acharyas, LOL.

Take a look at the story of Thiruppananzhvar. How much of it is true, I don't know, but it is the early SV Brahmin acharyas, the ones to whom these present day SVs pay hypocritically reverential lip service, who say that this "untouchable" Azhvar was carried upon the shoulders of the highest of high priest of Sri Rangam temple. The present day Brahmin SVs need not do that, they don't even have to accept the present day SV untouchable -- the ranks of whom are down to near zero now thanks to the self-respect movement of EVR from a SV family -- into their midst. Could they at least admit SV chattiyars and Mudiliyars to just sit next to them when they recite these Azhvar pasurams that declare loudly that not respecting them because of their jAti will make the chaturvedi a pulaiya? Irony can't get any thicker, LOL!!!

 

[renuka]

Now I understand why God provided us a computer. You have learnt a lot of politics from me. I may demand a guru dakshina. LOL.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

Nope...its not politics..I am being honest here.

When we are caste blind..caste should not matter anymore.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Vaagmi ji,
Nope...its not politics..I am being honest here.
When we are caste blind..caste should not matter anymore.

Politics or not, one of the subject matter under discussion is this hypocritical lip service about being caste blind. Therefore, it is not wrong to ask such questions off people who claim to be caste-blind.