Reverse wired nostrils

[Vaagmi]

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post #72:

I had two objectives in mind when I started this thread, (a) respond to the rewriting of history, so to speak, and (b) to speak to the youngsters, not yet fully brainwashed..........

This, as usual, is an afterthought. Every one understand why this thread was started as the very name is revealing. No respectability would accrue to the words by such a "show/drama" of altruistic intentions. The cloak is too thin.

 

[Vaagmi]

Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!

The other day when I was in the library I happened to browse a DK tabloid. This was what was there:

அண்ணே! அது என்ன அண்ணே சுருதி சுருதின்னு இந்த பாப்பாரப்பசங்க பேசிக்கிறாங்க? நம்ம தலீவரு சொல்லிருக்காரு மனு சுமிருதியப்பத்தி. இது என்னவோ புதுசா இருக்குதே சுருதி?

ஆமடா. நாங்கூட யோசிச்சேன். புரியுது. ஆது வெரொண்ணுமில்லடா. இந்த பாட்டுக்கச்சேரில வாசிக்கிறாங்கல்ல ஒரு பெட்டிய வச்சுகிட்டு அது தான் போல.

I opened up my computer and here our friend Ash has asked & answered himself:

"Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!"

So, we have people everywhere ready to shoot without aiming.

 

[ashwin_ash]

The other day when I was in the library I happened to browse a DK tabloid. This was what was there:

அண்ணே! அது என்ன அண்ணே சுருதி சுருதின்னு இந்த பாப்பாரப்பசங்க பேசிக்கிறாங்க? நம்ம தலீவரு சொல்லிருக்காரு மனு சுமிருதியப்பத்தி. இது என்னவோ புதுசா இருக்குதே சுருதி?

ஆமடா. நாங்கூட யோசிச்சேன். புரியுது. ஆது வெரொண்ணுமில்லடா. இந்த பாட்டுக்கச்சேரில வாசிக்கிறாங்கல்ல ஒரு பெட்டிய வச்சுகிட்டு அது தான் போல.

I opened up my computer and here our friend Ash has asked & answered himself:

"Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!"

So, we have people everywhere ready to shoot without aiming.

So you accept that Vaishnavites need to add a 'Sri' before their denomination just to flatter their limp egos and for self-aggrandizement. Why not add ten more 'Sris' to make it even more impressive!!

 

[Vaagmi]

So you accept that Vaishnavites need to add a 'Sri' before their denomination just to flatter their limp egos and for self-aggrandizement. Why not add ten more 'Sris' to make it even more impressive!!

LOL. vaishnavite oru tharam sonna athu maththavanga nooru tharam sonna mathiri. வைஷ்ணவன் ஒரு தரம் சொன்னா அது மத்தவங்க நூறு தரம் சொன்ன மாதிரி. so one sri here is equal to a hundred sri's. LOL.

 

[sarang]

Compulsive urge to destroy anything holy or good or held sacred by a vast majority of sanatana dharmists; sv bash is one small activity.

Since there is no other forum which will accept this kind of writing, all dumped here.

Since these views are not expressed in any other forum which can be visited for suitable responses, this forum has become a dumping yard.

It is said that US never fought a war in its soil; all wars fought in foreign lands thus causing suffering to others and not natives. Something similar.

Instead of extolling the virtues of atheism and the benefits one will get by following this creed, the path taken is to abuse other sects. No wonder atheistic population is decreasing all over the world, especially in USA. One exposure from the propagator is enough to pack the bags and seek theistic remedies.

SVs do not need any certificate and accredition from such people. They know what is good for them and where to go for further studies.

Nara - A while ago I asked you a few questions in this thread. You can choose to not answer of course. I have a few more below ...

1. I do not understand why you have a need to talk about SV or any other tradition to SV youngsters since you have subscribed to atheism as your belief system.

2. Do you really think there are youngsters being taught about castes and discrimination these days and even if that is the case that such youngsters are coming to learn about their tradition from this website?

 

[sarang]

An irish comedian in british tv narrated this story in his show:

In belfast, northern ireland, a black man was weeping in front of a church. He was comforted by a saintly looking bearded man.
"Why are you crying?"
"Rev paisley doesn't allow me inside the church to hear his sermon; he does not allow me even to stand in front of the main gate. I want to join the choir and sing."
"Don't worry young man; he does not allow me too to enter his church. And I am jesus."

hi

exactly..........these so called SV's are highly hipocrats in the world....what or if a smartha follow vishnu as god....still these

so called SV's or iyengars never allowed in their ghosti....even im following KEETHU NAAMA smartha of vaishnava sect......

we are smarthas....we are vaishnavas tooo....but not SRI VAISHNAVAS/IYENGAR.....WE ARE STILL IYERS...our kula deivam

perumal...we follow srirangam panchangam....not kanchi mutt.....still we are iyers...not iyengars....

 

[Vaagmi]

Hi tbs,

exactly..........these so called SV's are highly hipocrats in the world....what or if a smartha follow vishnu as god....still these
so called SV's or iyengars never allowed in their ghosti....even im following KEETHU NAAMA smartha of vaishnava sect......
we are smarthas....we are vaishnavas tooo....but not SRI VAISHNAVAS/IYENGAR.....WE ARE STILL IYERS...our kula deivam
perumal...we follow srirangam panchangam....not kanchi mutt.....still we are iyers...not iyengars....

What is a ghoshti?

What does the ghoshti do?

Who is a smartha?

Who is a vaishnava?

What is the difference between Srirangam panchangam and Kanchi mutt panchangam?

What does a kula deivam signify?

Could you please answer these querries? I am really interested in knowing your understanding. And finally who is an Iyer and who is an iyengar?

I will accept whatever you say. I am just interested in knowing what brahmins generally understand by these words. Thanks.

 

[tbs]

Hi tbs,


What is a ghoshti?

What does the ghoshti do?

Who is a smartha?

Who is a vaishnava?

What is the difference between Srirangam panchangam and Kanchi mutt panchangam?

What does a kula deivam signify?

Could you please answer these querries? I am really interested in knowing your understanding. And finally who is an Iyer and who is an iyengar?

I will accept whatever you say. I am just interested in knowing what brahmins generally understand by these words. Thanks.

hi

i dont want unneccessary arguements.........i know the consequences of this topic....i gave answer to ashwin...

 

[Nara]

Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!

There are lots of different Vaishnavas with critical differences in doctrine and theology. There is Gaudia Vaishnava, Madhwa Vaishnava, Smartha Vaishnava. The Sri in SV is to denote the special place given to "Sri" i.e. Mahalakshmi, in SV theology. The Vadakalais take her to be coequal to Narayana, they both as a team are Supreme Ishwars, where as Thenkalais consider Sri to be a jeeva, but she acts as an intermediary pleading for humanity and Narayana will always accept her wishes.

BTW, there is a gang out there questioning my motivation, my atheism, kicking up a dirt storm and deploying every trick to try to sidetrack me. I am not going to fall for these tactics. The more they do this the more determined I am to go on exposing the abject hypocrisy of the present day SV Brahmins. If there is any legitimate argument or question about the content of what I am writing, I will answer, all the other ad hominems and meta-data questions, I will ignore.

 

[Vaagmi]

........
BTW, there is a gang out there questioning my motivation, my atheism, kicking up a dirt storm and deploying every trick to try to sidetrack me. I am not going to fall for these tactics. The more they do this the more determined I am to go on exposing the abject hypocrisy among of the present day SV Brahmins. If there is any legitimate argument or question about the content of what I am writing, I will answer, all the other ad hominems and meta-data questions, I will ignore.

Nara,

You keep doing whatever you want. As you have said if you are very keen to write only about the present day SVs and their belief system jolly well do that. The SVs are least bothered about what you write here. Only I was critical of what you wrote because I happen to visit this forum frequently. Now I too have decided that I will stop being critical of you. You can write to your heart's content and be happy about your creativity. I am saving you the trouble of answering me.

 

[ashwin_ash]

There are lots of different Vaishnavas with critical differences in doctrine and theology. There is Gaudia Vaishnava, Madhwa Vaishnava, Smartha Vaishnava. The Sri in SV is to denote the special place given to "Sri" i.e. Mahalakshmi, in SV theology. The Vadakalais take her to be coequal to Narayana, they both as a team are Supreme Ishwars, where as Thenkalais consider Sri to be a jeeva, but she acts as an intermediary pleading for humanity and Narayana will always accept her wishes.

BTW, there is a gang out there questioning my motivation, my atheism, kicking up a dirt storm and deploying every trick to try to sidetrack me. I am not going to fall for these tactics. The more they do this the more determined I am to go on exposing the abject hypocrisy of the present day SV Brahmins. If there is any legitimate argument or question about the content of what I am writing, I will answer, all the other ad hominems and meta-data questions, I will ignore.

Vaagmi's conceded defeat, finally. Btw, if 'Sri' denotes Mahalakshmi, it implies that 'SVs' give primacy only to money and not to devotion. Lakshmi is worshipped *solely* as a money goddess and nothing more. Pecuniary needs are given primacy, spirituality takes a backseat. Sad.

 

[Nara]

Today the SV Brahmins are just as worse, or even more, as the Smartha ones when it comes to varna haughtiness. A well known SV scholar, revered Acharya, and a prolific writer from Oppiliyappan Kovil stopped going to the temple when it was thrown open to Dalits. Being a scholar he surely knew it was SV Brahmins who first implemented temple entry by dalits more than 1000 years ago, albeit only for three days a year. Still, this great SV acharya and scholar so couldn't bear to see dalits freely enter the temple of the perumal he loved, he refused to enter it. How much have they fallen -- this is the kind of example such eminent people who ought to know the SV history came to set for others. It is no wonder that many Brahmin SVs today are completely oblivious to the fact that in its inception SV was a truly progressive, and even revolutionary movement, continue to espouse casteist thinking.

Azhvar pasurams are filled with revolutionary messages with respect to varna, both implicit and explicit. One azhvar says it is the Brahmins who are real pulaiya if even the thought of what varna a bhagavatha belongs to crosses his mind. The early Brahmin commentators also tried to be as true to the revolutionary spirit as possible, but some of them, for whatever reason, put limits to these ideas in their commentary. When it was possible to interpret கொடுமின், கொள்மின் as take and give bride, they explicitly restricted the phrase to mean only giving and taking knowledge and giving and taking ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம். Even this restricted interpretation is too much for the present day SV Brahmins to stomach, they will never let NBs into their circle, let alone accept ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம், are you kidding me. Even if the great வியாக்யான சக்ரவர்த்தி himself comes in flesh and blood and tells these SV Brahmins to follow the interpretation he gave in his commentary some 900 years ago, these hypocrites will accuse him of misinterpreting himself and of brahmin hatred and of brahmin bashing, etc., etc. Good for him time travel is not possible.

SVs of this period were in the vanguard of progressive change, even though the revolutionary spirit of Azhvar pasurams was getting diluted. More than 1000 years ago it was a Brahmin SV who systematized Azhvar's poems and put an NB at the top of the acharya lineage for all SVs follow. Just think about this for a minute. It was circa 10th century CE, a time of Brahmincal ascendency, the Brahminical dharmashasthra rules were the law of the land. It was in this environment Sriman Nathamunigal put Nammazhvar at the head of the lineage. All SVs, Brahmins and NBs alike recited the praise of Nammazhvar everyday and they still do. Then they meant it, the SV gurukulam included Dalits, for which some of the SV Brahmins faced severe and even violent backlash from Smartha Brahmins. Today they simply parrot the words with only haughtiness in their mind. NBs are welcome only if they have money, otherwise they will be treated like dirt.

p.s.
Rebuttal of the content welcome, and if it is free of ad hominems or meta-data distractions I will answer ....

 

[krish44]

naraji your posts are very educative. I read them out of interest. you clarifications on meaning of sri and treatment of dalits over the centuries was a revelation . for want of more information from others I am inclined to accept what you say.have you wondered what are the reasons for their bad treatment at the hands of others. I have seen in many cases the caste victims keep themselves open for discrimination and exploitation. brahmins counteracted against discrimination by running off to other parts of the country and abroad. do dalits lack initiative and self survival ,preservation instincts

 

[CHANDRU1849]

hi

exactly..........these so called SV's are highly hipocrats in the world....what or if a smartha follow vishnu as god....still these

so called SV's or iyengars never allowed in their ghosti....even im following KEETHU NAAMA smartha of vaishnava sect......

we are smarthas....we are vaishnavas tooo....but not SRI VAISHNAVAS/IYENGAR.....WE ARE STILL IYERS...our kula deivam

perumal...we follow srirangam panchangam....not kanchi mutt.....still we are iyers...not iyengars....

Probably, you hail from Thirukachinambi sect, who belonged to Brahacharanam Sect.

One of my roommate's (in the 80s) name was Ganesan, but his father's name was
Rangachari.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!

There are no SVs. It is only V. SVs are those who follow the sambradaya strictly without
accepting Saivism. This can be done only after coming out of public domain. If you are to
move with other people, you cannot follow your principles strictly.

During my employment in a PSU, I had two Iyengar colleagues; one each from both Kalais.
Usually, they had lunch together. If one Kalai availed leave, the other Kalai had lunch with
Iyers, with a crude satisfaction of having lunch with Brahmin. This went on for sometime till one
Kalai was transferred.

For all these unwanted things, we will have to blame only Iyers. Had Iyers recognized
Ramanuja properly, he would not have left Iyer-fold, and Iyengarism would not have flourished
as we see it today.

 

[tbs]

Probably, you hail from Thirukachinambi sect, who belonged to Brahacharanam Sect.

One of my roommate's (in the 80s) name was Ganesan, but his father's name was
Rangachari.

hi

just info....we are vadamas....ramanuja sect......

 

[Vaagmi]

Today the SV Brahmins are just as worse, or even more, as the Smartha ones when it comes to varna haughtiness. A well known SV scholar, revered Acharya, and a prolific writer from Oppiliyappan Kovil stopped going to the temple when it was thrown open to Dalits. Being a scholar he surely knew it was SV Brahmins who first implemented temple entry by dalits more than 1000 years ago, albeit only for three days a year. Still, this great SV acharya and scholar so couldn't bear to see dalits freely enter the temple of the perumal he loved, he refused to enter it. How much have they fallen -- this is the kind of example such eminent people who ought to know the SV history came to set for others. It is no wonder that many Brahmin SVs today are completely oblivious to the fact that in its inception SV was a truly progressive, and even revolutionary movement, continue to espouse casteist thinking.

Azhvar pasurams are filled with revolutionary messages with respect to varna, both implicit and explicit. One azhvar says it is the Brahmins who are real pulaiya if even the thought of what varna a bhagavatha belongs to crosses his mind. The early Brahmin commentators also tried to be as true to the revolutionary spirit as possible, but some of them, for whatever reason, put limits to these ideas in their commentary. When it was possible to interpret கொடுமின், கொள்மின் as take and give bride, they explicitly restricted the phrase to mean only giving and taking knowledge and giving and taking ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம். Even this restricted interpretation is too much for the present day SV Brahmins to stomach, they will never let NBs into their circle, let alone accept ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம், are you kidding me. Even if the great வியாக்யான சக்ரவர்த்தி himself comes in flesh and blood and tells these SV Brahmins to follow the interpretation he gave in his commentary some 900 years ago, these hypocrites will accuse him of misinterpreting himself and of brahmin hatred and of brahmin bashing, etc., etc. Good for him time travel is not possible.

SVs of this period were in the vanguard of progressive change, even though the revolutionary spirit of Azhvar pasurams was getting diluted. More than 1000 years ago it was a Brahmin SV who systematized Azhvar's poems and put an NB at the top of the acharya lineage for all SVs follow. Just think about this for a minute. It was circa 10th century CE, a time of Brahmincal ascendency, the Brahminical dharmashasthra rules were the law of the land. It was in this environment Sriman Nathamunigal put Nammazhvar at the head of the lineage. All SVs, Brahmins and NBs alike recited the praise of Nammazhvar everyday and they still do. Then they meant it, the SV gurukulam included Dalits, for which some of the SV Brahmins faced severe and even violent backlash from Smartha Brahmins. Today they simply parrot the words with only haughtiness in their mind. NBs are welcome only if they have money, otherwise they will be treated like dirt.

p.s.
Rebuttal of the content welcome, and if it is free of ad hominems or meta-data distractions I will answer ....

A lot of recycled stuff. Before asking the software to take care of this, I would like to add just this to make the new members aware of the shining hypocrisy in all this:

1. The poster is accusing the SVs of hypocrisy because they are praising the Alwars and early commentators while not following what they said.

Members of this forum may please note this:

1. When I asked this eloquent member as to whether he would recommend to/advise his children positively to avoid marrying from the TB community, he answered in a novel way and the answer was neither here nor there. He said his love for his children was unconditional-as if love can ever be conditional. He did not answer the question directly. Now he is saying his child has married a a non brahmin after a lot of pressing for a direct answer. I am not sure what he means by this.

2. When I asked him whether he would sponsor a SC/ST boy's education in US by taking him in as a guest in his house and financing his education, he nonchalantly asked how do I know whether he has done that already or not. That is the kind of escape artist that he is. Mere story telling skill does not get a hypocrete far.

And he is speaking about the hypocrisy here. Please add a liberal dose of salt to what he says before tasting it. Here we have a master hypocrete. Beware. Good bye.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Vada kalai or Then kalai, forum la Ore Kalaai than pongo....besh besh...

One more relevant question here, I am an Iyer but hardly visit Sivan temples. But I have never seen Iyns visiting a Sivan temple . Also they go around only teh Perumal sannidhis, whereas we go around all the sannidhis..Why is it so??

Iyers lack religious discipline, since we are not having exclusive system. We have at least 400 Gods in 365 days.

Film Director K Balachander is a perfect example of indiscipline.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Iyers lack religious discipline, since we are not having exclusive system. We have at least 400 Gods in 365 days.

Film Director K Balachander is a perfect example of indiscipline.

What did Balachander do? In my opinion, he made tons of money. Similarly Kalyan Jewelers and the Kalpathi brothers. Being jealous of successful people doesn't help anybody's cause. BCCI guy N Srinivasan is also iyer.. and successful. Jealousy is the cause of a brahmin's downfall.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

What did Balachander do? In my opinion, he made tons of money. Similarly Kalyan Jewelers and the Kalpathi brothers. Being jealous of successful people doesn't help anybody's cause. BCCI guy N Srinivasan is also iyer.. and successful. Jealousy is the cause of a brahmin's downfall.

Arangetram Tamil film is the best example of Balachader's indiscipline.

 

[Nara]

Probably, you hail from Thirukachinambi sect, who belonged to Brahacharanam Sect..

Thirukkachchi Nambi belongs to Brahacharanam Sect? Where did you get this nugget from? SV texts say he belongs to Vaishya varna .....

 

[Nara]

... I have seen in many cases the caste victims keep themselves open for discrimination and exploitation. brahmins counteracted against discrimination by running off to other parts of the country and abroad. do dalits lack initiative and self survival ,preservation instincts

The discrimination Dalits faced was over centuries. They were kept under the iron heel of the Brahminical order. Brahminism wrote servitude and meek acceptance of their lot into their collective psyche as the divine and just order. Is it any wonder then that many of them still suffer from this oppressive brainwashing?

Yet, in a matter of few decades the Dravidian movement spearheaded by EVR taught them there is something called self respect and that all human beings are entitled to it. Now, at least in Tamil Nadu they are not taking oppression lying down. They are fighting back. Take a look at this as response to the desecration of Babasaheb Ambedkar's statue. They deserve our support.

On the contrary, Brahmins didn't face any discrimination, that is just anger-talk at having to give up their near exclusive grip over educational and government employment resources for decades. For 3% of the population they still get to compete 40% of the pie and if they are as good in the so called merit as touted they can still gobble up all of it for themselves. Yet, they can't, that reveals the empty boast about merit. Brahmins were best equipped in terms of education and financial resources for historical reasons and were able to take advantage of opportunities outside of Tamil Nadu and abroad. If they were the uneducated, laboring class how many would have been able to?

I know the usual suspects will pounce on me for what I have stated here. I will ignore them all, I have no time for ad hominems, digressions and distractions.

 

[Nara]

naraji your posts are very educative. I read them out of interest. you clarifications on meaning of sri and treatment of dalits over the centuries was a revelation . for want of more information from others I am inclined to accept what you say.

Thanks krish44, let me reiterate, I am not stating anything that is not there in the texts. I have taken the pains to provide accurate text from the commentary of early acharyas even though I don't fully agree with them.

What I have stated so far is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. If you go through the Azhvar pasurams and texts by early SV Brahmin acharyas, what you see is (a) intense bhakti for Vishnu and (b) scorching criticism and rejection of varna superiority.

Let me cite Kulasekarazhvar this time, he says he wants to wear on his forehead the dirt on the ground made muddy by tears of bhakti shed by the bhagavathas -- not Brahmin bhagavatha, any bahagavatha, and (b) he says he wants to be a stepping stone in the hills of Thiruvengadam for Bhagavathas to tread over -- all Bhagavathas, not just Brahmins. In a way this is ironic, the azhvars and early acharyas didn't seek equality with everyone, yes, they didn't want equality, they wanted inequality, one in which they put all other bhagavathas above them, the very opposite of the central idea of Brahminism.

One more anecdote from Ramanuja that I read many years ago in my poorvashramam -- Ramanuja was camping in a village for a few days and the preeminent Brahmin panditha came to him with a complaint. After aradhanai, the archaka was giving perumal theertham first to Ramanuja and then clockwise to everyone returning back the sannidhi, and as this scholar was standing right across from to Ramanuja at the very entrance of the sannidhi ended up being the last to receive theertham. This irked him to no end. So he complained to Ramanuja about this. He said he could understand Ramanuja receiving the first theertham, but he said he must be the first person to receive it after Ramanuja.

Ramanuja gladly agreed. The next day, Ramanuja instructed the archaka to give theertham to everyone first, then he took theertham and that left the panditha dead last again.

Over the years and centuries the SVs not only became completely oblivious to these transformative ideas, they also became consumed by the exact opposite ideas like superiority and haughtiness. Temple after temple the SVs insist on a strict sequence for distributing theertham and goodies -- who is first, second, third in line and so on must be strictly followed. You mess with the order and all hell will break out. Many a court battle have been waged to preserve these privileges or wrest them away. The more orthodox the SV Brahmin, the more vigilant he is about matters like this, his pride and honor are on the line. This is the depth to which the present day SV Brahmins have fallen.

p.s.
Personal attacks and meta-data distractions will be ignored. Reasoned rebuttals free of ad hominems welcome.

 

[tbs]

Thanks krish44, let me reiterate, I am not stating anything that is not there in the texts. I have taken the pains to provide accurate text from the commentary of early acharyas even though I don't fully agree with them.

What I have stated so far is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. If you go through the Azhvar pasurams and texts by early SV Brahmin acharyas, what you see is (a) intense bhakti for Vishnu and (b) scorching criticism and rejection of varna superiority.

Let me cite Kulasekarazhvar this time, he says he wants to wear on his forehead the dirt on the ground made muddy by tears of bhakti shed by the bhagavathas -- not Brahmin bhagavatha, any bahagavatha, and (b) he says he wants to be a stepping stone in the hills of Thiruvengadam for Bhagavathas to tread over -- all Bhagavathas, not just Brahmins. In a way this is ironic, the azhvars and early acharyas didn't seek equality with everyone, yes, they didn't want equality, they wanted inequality, one in which they put all other bhagavathas above them, the very opposite of the central idea of Brahminism.

One more anecdote from Ramanuja that I read many years ago in my poorvashramam -- Ramanuja was camping in a village for a few days and the preeminent Brahmin panditha came to him with a complaint. After aradhanai, the archaka was giving perumal theertham first to Ramanuja and then clockwise to everyone returning back the sannidhi, and as this scholar was standing right across from to Ramanuja at the very entrance of the sannidhi ended up being the last to receive theertham. This irked him to no end. So he complained to Ramanuja about this. He said he could understand Ramanuja receiving the first theertham, but he said he must be the first person to receive it after Ramanuja.

Ramanuja gladly agreed. The next day, Ramanuja instructed the archaka to give theertham to everyone first, then he took theertham and that left the panditha dead last again.

Over the years and centuries the SVs not only became completely oblivious to these transformative ideas, they also became consumed by the exact opposite ideas like superiority and haughtiness. Temple after temple the SVs insist on a strict sequence for distributing theertham and goodies -- who is first, second, third in line and so on must be strictly followed. You mess with the order and all hell will break out. Many a court battle have been waged to preserve these privileges or wrest them away. The more orthodox the SV Brahmin, the more vigilant he is about matters like this, his pride and honor are on the line. This is the depth to which the present day SV Brahmins have fallen.

p.s.
Personal attacks and meta-data distractions will be ignored. Reasoned rebuttals free of ad hominems welcome.

hi nara sir,

i agree with u......in all ISM has same view as above....just ex sikhism...its exactly as vaishnavism to remove inequality in the

society......now it has full of caste system....same way christianity...........the church for all...but see the catholism does in

the modern age... earlier hinduism was no gods/godess............just agni/vayu like five elements were worshiped during

early rigvedic period......so these are unavoidable developments in the society...

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The responsibility for the class/caste system that existed in the tamil and Indian society cannot be simply blamed on brahmins. Slavery came into existence as a result of warring tribes with victors enslaving the vanquished. The existence of four-fold class division is documented from the earliest available tamil literature right from tholkappiyam, puranaanuru, silappathikaram, and many other sangam literature. Different social groups went up and down the ladder of this class system. The parayars, who come under the dalit category today, for example, had a respectable position during sangam period ("துடியன், பாணன், பறையன், கடம்பன் இவை நான்குமில்லாதது குடியும் இலவே!") That is why they still proudly claim "சங்கு பறையன் நான், சாதியில் மூத்தவன் நான்". But this does not mean that class system and slavery did not exist at that time. It is just that the enslaved people categorized into the fourth class designated as "கீழ்பால்" was the vELaalars. Therefore you can see the people categorized as dalits today were not always the oppressed and neither the vELaalars who rose to higher ranks later always occupied this exalted position. The priests of any society during those times occupied a respectable position. Blaming brahmins is just result of extreme prejudice and the main reason is to justify discrimination against brahmins today. This finger pointing that goes on in this forum directed against the brahmins is a very good example of "oppressive brainwashing" that is being talked about here.