Reverse wired nostrils

[கால பைரவன்]

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The fact is, I would much rather my daughter marry somebody who is not a brahmin, don't have to deal with the uptight Brahmins during every family get together, but if her choice is a Brahmin, I will have endure it for the sake of my daughter.

Much comfortable in putting up with "uptight" Brahmins in an internet forum at a distance than in family get-togethers - right Nara?!! LOL!

 

[Nara]

Much comfortable in putting up with "uptight" Brahmins in an internet forum at a distance than in family get-togethers - right Nara?!! LOL!

You have a POV different from mine, but I don't think that makes you, or anyone else, uptight. I am talking about those who think being a Brahmin makes them fundamentally different from everyone else, and they unfortunately are the majority IMO, and some even are ready to admit to this idiocy.

 

[tks]

Dear Vaagmi ji,

Nope...its not politics..I am being honest here.

When we are caste blind..caste should not matter anymore.

Dr Renu - I think I know what you mean but the words may mean something else for some people..

Let me explain.

'Caste blind', 'creed blind' , 'race blind' - people advocating such statements (not you, Dr Renu) generally tend to be casteists, racists ..etc.

The truth is that there are differences in each and every being - living or non living. We have various names and forms and we differ both individually and even collectively as a group. People from one region could be taller on the average than those from another region. It is even possible that on an average people may perform well on an intellectual activity from one group to another.

So differences will at individual level and collective levels will always exist.

The one that thinks they are better will always try to exploit the one who is not. Even in a jungle the predator goes after the weakest of the species to satisfy its needs. Human being mostly afflicted with excessive greed will always use any means to exploit others. While I am not a history buff the weakest group always gets subdued by force.

Even at this forum there are some who like to play 'holier than thou' by protesting too much to the word 'Brahmin'.

The subtle statement - and it is not all that subtle to many - is to assert own superiority over others by the following means

1.'Acting' most rational and above caste-thinking, admonishing others,
2. Always bringing up caste at every opportunity, looking ways to twist innocent statements,
3. Blaming current generation for past sins of another generation and
4. Superimposing bad traits simply because of a common identity.

Rather than being caste blind , race blind, gender blind, and sexual orientation blind let us actually recognize the uniqueness of individuals for who they are by acknowledging the differences both at individual level and collective level, and celebrate the diversity in 'creation'.

This does not mean one has to keep quiet if there is overt discrimination based on artificially superimposed characteristics on any group.
Let me use a few example of what all constitute Adharma.

Let us take the use of the words Brahmins, Brahminism and all its variation. There are those that fashionably act allergic to this word by how they react. There is already a lot of mischief done to malign the word. How this is done is despicable when the word means something else in Sanskrit. Let me use an example of how this happens.

There is an ex-Senator (US) by name Rick Santorum who even made unsuccessful bid to run for President in the last cycle. I do not like this person's politics and what he stands for. He is against gays and thinks it is a sin etc based on quoting some scriptures. What the gay group did to him was also despicable in my view - they took his last name and assigned a very crude, vulgar and bad meaning to it. If you Google his last name you will find out.. Though I do not stand for this person's policy I am against maligning this fellow's family name with this very vulgar and gross meaning. This senator is now immortalized with this another meaning to his last name.

The word Brahminism is also maligned in the same manner. Anyone that pushes this knowing that there are many that carry this tag is not a kind person towards others. It does not matter what they say - their mind is corrupted in my view. I hope they will correct themselves.

I think we can all stand against unfair discrimination based on any attribute - race, caste, gender, national origin, sexual orientation. The reason is that human beings are born without being able to select those attributes. I did not have any say as to where I was born, who was my parents, what race my body was characterized as .. etc. So using any of this to discriminate others is Adharma and we need to stand against that.

There are women in the work place and if they do the same work as a man they need to be paid the same. This does not mean they have to dress and act as a man.

Similar things go with someone born in any so called caste. If someone is born Brahmin , strives to live up to the word - let us respect that. If someone is not born as a Brahmin but strives to the same goal let us give them the same respect.

I have come across many Americans who have showed enormous maturity by what they have learnt and how they act. I have willingly gone and done Namaskarams to them when opportunity came up because in my mind they are living up to the ideals I admire. This does not mean I am blind to the fact that they are born in a different race. It is simply that the learning and mature behavior is not a dependent function of this person's birth characteristics.

Let us celebrate the diversity of the world we live in and not be blind to it

 

[renuka]

Dr Renu - I think I know what you mean but the words may mean something else for some people..

Let me explain.

'Caste blind', 'creed blind' , 'race blind' - people advocating such statements (not you, Dr Renu) generally tend to be casteists, racists ..etc.

The truth is that there are differences in each and every being - living or non living. We have various names and forms and we differ both individually and even collectively as a group. People from one region could be taller on the average than those from another region. It is even possible that on an average people may perform well on an intellectual activity from one group to another.

So differences will at individual level and collective levels will always exist.

The one that thinks they are better will always try to exploit the one who is not. Even in a jungle the predator goes after the weakest of the species to satisfy its needs. Human being mostly afflicted with excessive greed will always use any means to exploit others. While I am not a history buff the weakest group always gets subdued by force.

Even at this forum there are some who like to play 'holier than thou' by protesting too much to the word 'Brahmin'.

The subtle statement - and it is not all that subtle to many - is to assert own superiority over others by the following means

1.'Acting' most rational and above caste-thinking, admonishing others,
2. Always bringing up caste at every opportunity, looking ways to twist innocent statements,
3. Blaming current generation for past sins of another generation and
4. Superimposing bad traits simply because of a common identity.

Rather than being caste blind , race blind, gender blind, and sexual orientation blind let us actually recognize the uniqueness of individuals for who they are by acknowledging the differences both at individual level and collective level, and celebrate the diversity in 'creation'.

This does not mean one has to keep quiet if there is overt discrimination based on artificially superimposed characteristics on any group.
Let me use a few example of what all constitute Adharma.

Let us take the use of the words Brahmins, Brahminism and all its variation. There are those that fashionably act allergic to this word by how they react. There is already a lot of mischief done to malign the word. How this is done is despicable when the word means something else in Sanskrit. Let me use an example of how this happens.

There is an ex-Senator (US) by name Rick Santorum who even made unsuccessful bid to run for President in the last cycle. I do not like this person's politics and what he stands for. He is against gays and thinks it is a sin etc based on quoting some scriptures. What the gay group did to him was also despicable in my view - they took his last name and assigned a very crude, vulgar and bad meaning to it. If you Google his last name you will find out.. Though I do not stand for this person's policy I am against maligning this fellow's family name with this very vulgar and gross meaning. This senator is now immortalized with this another meaning to his last name.

The word Brahminism is also maligned in the same manner. Anyone that pushes this knowing that there are many that carry this tag is not a kind person towards others. It does not matter what they say - their mind is corrupted in my view. I hope they will correct themselves.

I think we can all stand against unfair discrimination based on any attribute - race, caste, gender, national origin, sexual orientation. The reason is that human beings are born without being able to select those attributes. I did not have any say as to where I was born, who was my parents, what race my body was characterized as .. etc. So using any of this to discriminate others is Adharma and we need to stand against that.

There are women in the work place and if they do the same work as a man they need to be paid the same. This does not mean they have to dress and act as a man.

Similar things go with someone born in any so called caste. If someone is born Brahmin , strives to live up to the word - let us respect that. If someone is not born as a Brahmin but strives to the same goal let us give them the same respect.

I have come across many Americans who have showed enormous maturity by what they have learnt and how they act. I have willingly gone and done Namaskarams to them when opportunity came up because in my mind they are living up to the ideals I admire. This does not mean I am blind to the fact that they are born in a different race. It is simply that the learning and mature behavior is not a dependent function of this person's birth characteristics.

Let us celebrate the diversity of the world we live in and not be blind to it

Dear TKS ji,

Thanks for detail explanation..but for me its simple..I rather value a person for what he/she is as a person and not differentiate as long the person respects values in everyone.

As I said earlier in some other posts that I do not like giving caste tags to anyone..and if anyone gives me a caste/community tag of any kind..it has happened to me in the past..I usually tell the person politely that I am just what I am..no names please..cos I am not going to take any caste/community tag as a compliment nor as an insult.

And believe me enough times the person giving you the caste/community tag gets all worked up and saying 'Are you trying to say there is something wrong with my community that you can say its not a compliment or an insult?"

For me when I see such reactions that spells PRIDE and PREJUDICE.. so next step is easy..just press DELETE button in my brain and that person ceases to be my friend in the real sense even though I might actually still be nice to the person.

So as we go on in life..we actually get along with very few people.

For me I can embrace diversity of any kind as long my private space is respected..invasion of privacy is considered a serious matter for me.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Thanks for detail explanation..but for me its simple..I rather value a person for what he/she is as a person and not differentiate as long the person respects values in everyone.

As I said earlier in some other posts that I do not like giving caste tags to anyone..and if anyone gives me a caste/community tag of any kind..it has happened to me in the past..I usually tell the person politely that I am just what I am..no names please..cos I am not going to take any caste/community tag as a compliment nor as an insult.

And believe me enough times the person giving you the caste/community tag gets all worked up and saying 'Are you trying to say there is something wrong with my community that you can say its not a compliment or an insult?"

For me when I see such reactions that spells PRIDE and PREJUDICE.. so next step is easy..just press DELETE button in my brain and that person ceases to be my friend in the real sense even though I might actually still be nice to the person.

So as we go on in life..we actually get along with very few people.

For me I can embrace diversity of any kind as long my private space is respected..invasion of privacy is considered a serious matter for me.

Dr Renu

You as a person do not like any tags to be given to you and you like your privacy - that has to be accepted by any reasonable person.
Having said that I hope you agree that you and I cannot pass a judgement on others if their action is benign. If some reacts as 'are you trying to say there is something wrong with my community' that is not a great reaction - I understand that .

Human beings show their kindness in different manner. Let me give you an example.

When I was a PhD student living in the dorms professors and other staff used to invited some of us to their home on special occasion.
They all know I am a vegetarian. One of the department assistant invited me to her house and cooked an Egg Plant dish.

In the middle of the discussions some weeks later I found out that she had actually put some meat in the sauce that she made from scratch just to get the right taste.

In her mind vegetarian will not eat meat but she made a decision to serve a very nice tasting dish in the best way she knew how. She knew it may or may not be proper to serve that - she did have a doubt but did not ask.

Of course it is not a big deal but I only saw her intent to do the right thing not disrespect my wishes of vegetarianism. Sometimes people use the only way they know how to provide a compliment. I usually accept that knowing the intent behind that. Not that I need a compliment but my point is that I do not have an absolute metric to reject or accept anything. To me the intent behind an action is far more significant than the action itself

 

[renuka]

Dr Renu

You as a person do not like any tags to be given to you and you like your privacy - that has to be accepted by any reasonable person.
Having said that I hope you agree that you and I cannot pass a judgement on others if their action is benign. If some reacts as 'are you trying to say there is something wrong with my community' that is not a great reaction - I understand that .

Human beings show their kindness in different manner. Let me give you an example.

When I was a PhD student living in the dorms professors and other staff used to invited some of us to their home on special occasion.
They all know I am a vegetarian. One of the department assistant invited me to her house and cooked an Egg Plant dish.

In the middle of the discussions some weeks later I found out that she had actually put some meat in the sauce that she made from scratch just to get the right taste.

In her mind vegetarian will not eat meat but she made a decision to serve a very nice tasting dish in the best way she knew how. She knew it may or may not be proper to serve that - she did have a doubt but did not ask.

Of course it is not a big deal but I only saw her intent to do the right thing not disrespect my wishes of vegetarianism. Sometimes people use the only way they know how to provide a compliment. I usually accept that knowing the intent behind that. Not that I need a compliment but my point is that I do not have an absolute metric to reject or accept anything. To me the intent behind an action is far more significant than the action itself

Dear TKS ji,

Agreed..fair enough..but it is always benign if the caste tag comes from the so called acceptable castes of the Varna system.

If a Dalit tried to give a Dalit tag to a non Dalit out of extended brotherhood love....I don't think the Dalit would survive to see the next sun rise cos that would be considered Malignant.

So you see there is no such thing as benign or innocent action of anyone..each person has their own prejudices which they would love to call benign.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Aiyyangar kalais

Now I understand why God provided us a computer. You have learnt a lot of politics from me. I may demand a guru dakshina. LOL.

Coming to think of it, Vaagmi, yes I am indeed a .....kalai, a Murattu Kalai. Wild raging ox. But you, Vaagmi, are the original ....kalai. It is part of your linegage. Try as you might, you can never ever disown lineage.

 

[sarang]

For the coming elections ramdas wants to form an alliance of like minded caste parties. Brahmins are left out because there is no brahmin party. But there are parties with members from all castes.

When ramdas started his vanniyar party, he claimed that if all vanniyars unite and vote as one unit he can form a vanniyar caste government. It did not happen. Kanshi ram, the guru of mayavati too said that as dalits form the majority of the population, he was confident of forming a dalit government at the centre where both pm and the president will be dalits. This too did not happen.

Caste dynamics is not that simple. Live and let live is still the norm. Respect for castes and discouraging discrimination is the right path for bharat. Not special status and appeasement. The politicians and the media stoke flames for narrow and transient gains, knowing fully well castes will not go away.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

Nope...its not politics..I am being honest here.

When we are caste blind..caste should not matter anymore.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

Agreed..fair enough..but it is always benign if the caste tag comes from the so called acceptable castes of the Varna system.

If a Dalit tried to give a Dalit tag to a non Dalit out of extended brotherhood love....I don't think the Dalit would survive to see the next sun rise cos that would be considered Malignant.

So you see there is no such thing as benign or innocent action of anyone..each person has their own prejudices which they would love to call benign.

I am against any kind of generalization...First of all no one from unstructured and disadvantaged society will give a brotherhood title because someone has to be close enough to have earned that. If there was a such a person then they would not mind. It is irrelevant who else has narrow mindedness to judge this. If you just remove any latent assumption about anyone being superior for the sake of just birth then what I have stated applies generically.

I have not lived in India long enough to know many examples.

When I was a student at IIT/Kanput one of the brahmin professors led many reforms not just in school but in the overall community.
He was considered a special friend of those that people call Dalit. When he was fired and later reinstated it was because of the voice of the majority of people from disadvantaged groups. He was touched by how they used to call him their brother.

President Clinton was affectionately called the the first black President. He did not object but embraced the intent behind the statement.

Let us look at these examples - I did not do sufficient research but have heard about how there had been fair minded people from all classifications. Such people would never take offense in my view if they are called a Dalit brother.

1.C. P. Ramaswami Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. A. Vaidyanatha Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There are many examples of people acting as human beings. We tend to divide them in our mind first and assign motives simply because of a larger number of ignorant people.

Bottomline in my view - all generalizations about assigning bad motives to any group are rooted in wrong ideas

 

[renuka]

For the coming elections ramdas wants to form an alliance of like minded caste parties. Brahmins are left out because there is no brahmin party. But there are parties with members from all castes.

When ramdas started his vanniyar party, he claimed that if all vanniyars unite and vote as one unit he can form a vanniyar caste government. It did not happen. Kanshi ram, the guru of mayavati too said that as dalits form the majority of the population, he was confident of forming a dalit government at the centre where both pm and the president will be dalits. This too did not happen.

Caste dynamics is not that simple. Live and let live is still the norm. Respect for castes and discouraging discrimination is the right path for bharat. Not special status and appeasement. The politicians and the media stoke flames for narrow and transient gains, knowing fully well castes will not go away.

Dear Sarang ji,

I can understand that caste plays an important role in Indian political scenario but I am talking about an individual level here..I am sure mindset can evolve isn't it?

 

[renuka]

I am against any kind of generalization...First of all no one from unstructured and disadvantaged society will give a brotherhood title because someone has to be close enough to have earned that. If there was a such a person then they would not mind. It is irrelevant who else has narrow mindedness to judge this. If you just remove any latent assumption about anyone being superior for the sake of just birth then what I have stated applies generically.

I have not lived in India long enough to know many examples.

When I was a student at IIT/Kanput one of the brahmin professors led many reforms not just in school but in the overall community.
He was considered a special friend of those that people call Dalit. When he was fired and later reinstated it was because of the voice of the majority of people from disadvantaged groups. He was touched by how they used to call him their brother.

President Clinton was affectionately called the the first black President. He did not object but embraced the intent behind the statement.

Let us look at these examples - I did not do sufficient research but have heard about how there had been fair minded people from all classifications. Such people would never take offense in my view if they are called a Dalit brother.

1.C. P. Ramaswami Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. A. Vaidyanatha Iyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There are many examples of people acting as human beings. We tend to divide them in our mind first and assign motives simply because of a larger number of ignorant people.

Bottomline in my view - all generalizations about assigning bad motives to any group are rooted in wrong ideas

Dear TKS ji,

I will give you a personal example...I had attended the funeral of my grandmother 2 years ago(she was Brahmin by birth) and a Brahmin friend of my aunt had suggested that we give away all towels used to wipe the dead body of my grandmum to the people who sweep the road!

I objected right away and told her saying that any towel used to wipe a dead body is considered potential infective material and should be discarded after disinfecting it with antiseptics and should not be used by anyone.

Ok now the Brahmin lady who suggested that we give the towels to the people who sweep the road got pissed with me and she said " that this is how we do it in our home" and she walked away angrily.

So you see people have it wired into their brains that they are entitled to feel a certain way and did not even want to see that a towel used to wipe a dead body was totally unfit to be given to anyone even if the person sweeps the road.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Dear Sarang ji,

I can understand that caste plays an important role in Indian political scenario but I am talking about an individual level here..I am sure mindset can evolve isn't it?

The mindset which has not altered in > 10,000 years, and in a country where the majority of pages in the Sunday papers carry blatantly casteist marriage advertisements, will never change, ever.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

I will give you a personal example...I had attended the funeral of my grandmother 2 years ago(she was Brahmin by birth) and a Brahmin friend of my aunt had suggested that we give away all towels used to wipe the dead body of my grandmum to the people who sweep the road!

I objected right away and told her saying that any towel used to wipe a dead body is considered potential infective material and should be discarded after disinfecting it with antiseptics and should not be used by anyone.

Ok now the Brahmin lady who suggested that we give the towels to the people who sweep the road got pissed with me and she said " that this is how we do it in our home" and she walked away angrily.

So you see people have it wired into their brains that they are entitled to feel a certain way and did not even want to see that a towel used to wipe a dead body was totally unfit to be given to anyone even if the person sweeps the road.

I am sure there are many like that who are born and raised that way. That does not mean all people carrying the brahmin tag are like that woman. By the way there is an assumption in all of this that Brahmin are primary flag carrying bigots when in reality this kind of treatment is from all walks of society - not just castes of all kinds but those that think they are rich as well. I have seen many people with money regardless of caste (mostly middle caste) abusive towards their workers regardless of their caste.

My starting position is that people are well intentioned until proven otherwise by their action (not just words0. Also any form of generalization is harmful.

Let me close this with another incident from Mid 1970s when I was a student living in the dorms in USA . There were very few students from India those days and it was a privilege to be seen hanging around with girls in this coed dorms. At least other Desi students admired this and I wanted to show off also ...Hey I was a student and certainly not mature then which is besides the point

I found out that it was easier to hang around with those girls who called themselves feminists. I had a strategy but it kind of backfired. They used to call me one of the 'girls' .. I told them 'tomboy' is cute but I dont want a 'sissy' image ,...They said it was actually a term to mean 'you are cool' in our vocabulary - much like calling girls and boys together as guys .. I did not take any offense
Let me stop now LoL

 

[tks]

The mindset which has not altered in > 10,000 years, and in a country where the majority of pages in the Sunday papers carry blatantly casteist marriage advertisements, will never change, ever.

People wanting to marry or wanting their children to marry people from similar background *does not mean they all are bigots and casteists*. Some will be and some will not be and it has nothing to do with wanting to find a spouse from similar background.

 

[renuka]

I am sure there are many like that who are born and raised that way. That does not mean all people carrying the brahmin tag are like that woman. By the way there is an assumption in all of this that Brahmin are primary flag carrying bigots when in reality this kind of treatment is from all walks of society - not just castes of all kinds but those that think they are rich as well. I have seen many people with money regardless of caste (mostly middle caste) abusive towards their workers regardless of their caste.

Dear TKS ji,

That personal example I gave was just an example and not an anti Brahmin post cos I have seem similar behavior or even worse behavior in Upper Caste Non Brahmins when they deal with whom they consider low.

That post was just an example and nothing more that goes to show that certain types of thoughts are supposed to be accepted as norm which only displays prejudice and ignorance ..this is the type of mindset that needs to be changed.

I hope you understand my post in the real sense.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji,

That personal example I gave was just an example and not an anti Brahmin post cos I have seem similar behavior or even worse behavior in Upper Caste Non Brahmins when they deal with whom they consider low.

That post was just an example and nothing more that goes to show that certain types of thoughts are supposed to be accepted as norm which only displays prejudice and ignorance ..this is the type of mindset that needs to be changed.

I hope you understand my post in the real sense.

Of course you did not have any anti-brahmin post now or in the past...Ignorance which is the basis for many acts is not exclusive birth right of any one group.

There are no norms when it comes to one group of people putting others down. This was there in the past, is there now and will be there in the future - only the reasons for discrimination will change. Such a mindset cannot be changed easily in a sustained manner since it is rooted in ignorance of who we really are.

All I can say is what any of us can do. I can tell you what I strive to do regardless of my success in doing so. One is not to generalize when it comes to assigning negative intent or characteristics to individuals or groups, always start with assigning nobler intent unless proven otherwise and speak up or act up if I am able to witness what I perceive as an unfair act. I am not doing this to be a nicer person or any such thing. It is because it is tied to my personal growth as a person working towards a larger objective.

 

[sarang]

In mathematics whole is sum of parts. But in statistics, the whole is not sum of parts, but depends on the distribution. People who subscribe to castes also extend from one end of the spectrum to the other. Those who claim that they are caste-less must not abuse those who are caste-inclusive. Mindset is respect for all castes.

This obsession with caste-ignoring has gone to absurd levels. One book on pallava history published in 1930s carried the name of the author 'Rajamanikkam pillai'. Same book reprinted last year carries the name 'Rajamanikkanar'. The new publisher has erased the caste identity valued by the writer. (from jeyamohan's blog). In karunanidi's time the surname iyer, iyengar, pillai, mudaliar, chettiar was dropped from the street names - (I don't know why). Recently in chennai I saw a street name board - muthuramalinga (thevar) street. Now thevar has crept in within brackets. I will be happy if all the old streets get back their mudaliar, chettiar, iyer endings.

Dear Sarang ji,

I can understand that caste plays an important role in Indian political scenario but I am talking about an individual level here..I am sure mindset can evolve isn't it?

 

[Vaagmi]

Coming to think of it, Vaagmi, yes I am indeed a .....kalai, a Murattu Kalai. Wild raging ox. But you, Vaagmi, are the original ....kalai. It is part of your linegage. Try as you might, you can never ever disown lineage.

Oh poor Ash,

Again you lose. You do not know the difference between a kalai(கலை) and a kaalai(காளை) in Tamil. க is not the same as கா. Are you a Tamil at all? So if kalai களை is an ox it will be an ox without its legs (ka க in tamil followed by a kaal -also means leg- becomes kaalai). Your murattu kalai முரட்டுக் களை is without its leg. poor thing. LOL.

And you took two days to work out this still born deformed baby. LOL. That is the difference between an Iyengar vadakalai/thenkalai and a ............kalai that you are. An iyengar kalai would have fared far better in a dual of this sort. Poor......kalai Ash, yes man, you can never disown your lineage-however hard you try and taking your own time. Better grow up quickly. Take complan. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renuka in post #48:

Dear Vaagmi ji,
Nope...its not politics..I am being honest here.
When we are caste blind..caste should not matter anymore

And in her earlier post:

This is what I do not understand..if a person has given up his caste/varna etc he does not have to proof a point by taking in a person from SC/ST into the family for higher education..he can choose any candidate that is well deserving be it a Brahmin or a SC/ST cos when we do not see caste of a person everyone is the same to us.
Just like some people always say Dr Ambedkar married a Brahmin lady and called him hypocrite for that..technically when he viewed everyone as the same..he could very well marry anyone he loved be it Brahmin or SC/ST or anyone else in between.
A person who has given up his/her caste does not have to be anti his/her own ex caste.
So I feel the person has the freedom to choose who he wants to help based purely on the need for help and not based on caste alone...so Naraji could actually even sponsor a Brahmin kid too if he wants.

In a world full of hypocrites proof is needed. Like many of our political leaders who swear by so-called liberal views go home to call their servants by casteist demeaning epithets and carefully select a groom for daughter from the same caste, sub-caste and region, there are many hypocrites here also who swear by their revolutionary ideals only to live their life not as per those ideals. That is the reason why such symbolic actions are needed. Ambedkar marrying a Brahmin lady might have been a secret wish to do that coming true. I do not know the specifics of that story. If a person has really given up his subscription to the caste system then he should readily come up with an answer in the positive to the question I had raised. I did not get that answer readily. When it came it came with a lot of ifs and buts loaded there which betrayed a scholarly attempt to hide the dilly dallying. I subscribe to caste system and if you ask me a similar question my answer would be immediate and straight.

And tks said this and I agree with him:

1.There are many examples of people acting as human beings. We tend to divide them in our mind first and assign motives simply because of a larger number of ignorant people.

2.Bottomline in my view - all generalizations about assigning bad motives to any group are rooted in wrong ideas.

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in 47:
....whether you would positively recommend to your children to marry only outside brahmin community, .
1.Who my children want to marry is their decision, I only have advisory role, not a decisive one. This is a concept too far for a casteist to understand.

2.The fact is, I would much rather my daughter marry somebody who is not a brahmin, don't have to deal with the uptight Brahmins during every family get together, but if her choice is a Brahmin, I will have endure it for the sake of my daughter. My son is already married to a lovely and loving young woman -- not a Brahmin, thank the non-existent "god", LOL.

1.What do advisors do? I asked whether you would recommend (or should I say advise) to your children. Decision will always be that of the person who is going to marry. That goes without saying. Again according to you an advise which is not a “decisive” one. There is no end to your playing with words. Even when you advise a certain course of action, you would expect your children to certainly ignore the advise? And finally the escape latch as usual – you are a casteist and so this concept is too far from you to understand. LOL. Either you are too peeved to give a straight answer in the affirmative or it is all hypocrisy. Nara,I understand you very clearly and that is the problem for you.

2.I understand your problem. The uptight Brahmins who will come to every function in your house are a pest. You can relax with an additional peg of CR or better BM at the end of all those formalities and after the uptight pests leave. Soma Ras or the modern version of it a peg of CR/Bacardi/JD/BM is known to lubricate the paths of brain cells so that it is a friction less loose happy world without any uptightness. LORL.

3.Take a look at the story of Thiruppananzhvar. How much of it is true, I don't know, but it is the early SV Brahmin acharyas, the ones to whom these present day SVs pay hypocritically reverential lip service, who say that this "untouchable" Azhvar was carried upon the shoulders of the highest of high priest of Sri Rangam temple. The present day Brahmin SVs need not do that, they don't even have to accept the present day SV untouchable -- the ranks of whom are down to near zero now thanks to the self-respect movement of EVR from a SV family -- into their midst. Could they at least admit SV chattiyars and Mudiliyars to just sit next to them when they recite these Azhvar pasurams that declare loudly that not respecting them because of their jAti will make the chaturvedi a pulaiya? Irony can't get any thicker, LOL!!!

3.You have selectively added a skeptic “how much of it is true, I do not know” to the Tiruppaanaalwar story while you did not add that to the story of any other Alwars. That shows your prejudiced mind. In the Tiruppaanaalwar story the SV Brahmins’ openness to accept great bhaktas of Sri Renganatha as great souls irrespective of caste etc. is spoken about. That is enough reason for you to suspect it’s genuineness. Where did you see the SV chettiyars and Mudaliyars who were willing to chant the pasurams not being allowed to sit along with Brahmins? Are there such chettiyars and mudaliyars coming forward to chant the pasurams in the temples. I live in Chennai and I have yet to come across a single such individual. May be in US you have such people and perhaps also a matom with a pontiff who does not allow them. LOL. The irony is not only that you enjoy riding a pink unicorn flying in your imaginary world but you are also coming here to declare it loudly that that is reality. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in post # 51:

Originally Posted by கால பைரவன்
Much comfortable in putting up with "uptight" Brahmins in an internet forum at a distance than in family get-togethers - right Nara?!! LOL!

You have a POV different from mine, but I don't think that makes you, or anyone else, uptight. I am talking about those who think being a Brahmin makes them fundamentally different from everyone else, and they unfortunately are the majority IMO, and some even are ready to admit to this idiocy.

If what I have already suggested (Bacardi/BM etc) does not help you, please let me know. I can get from Goa a bottle of Coconut Feni and send it over to you (knowledgeable people say it is pretty strong). That may help you relieve yourself not only of the suffering from “uptight Brahmin phobia” but also your obsession with imaginery idiots and idiocy. LOL.

 

[Nara]

I had two objectives in mind when I started this thread, (a) respond to the rewriting of history, so to speak, and (b) to speak to the youngsters, not yet fully brainwashed, of the great progressive legacy of Azhvars and early SV Brahmin Acharyas, who dared to envision a community, albeit an SV one, in which even the mere recognition of one's varna is a reflection of how depraved you are -- one of the early Brahmin SV acharyas declared the mere act of taking cogniszence of another bhagavatha's varna makes the scholarship of such people the same as the ornaments adorning a dead corpse. Pause a moment and think about it, this was said by a Brahmin SV acharya almost 1000 years ago.

Where has such revolutionary spirit of SVs gone?

Just think about it my dear youngsters, Nammazhvar is the foremost Acharya for all SVs, the vaishnava kula kootastar, there is no other earthly acharya above him for all SVs. Yet, if he were to time travel and visit his own birth place today, Azhvar Thirunagari, he will not be allowed to join the SV goshti just because he is an NB. This is the extent of hypocrisy of present day SVs. They will sing the praise of Nammazhvar, but won't let him into their congregation!!!

In the birth place of Nammazhvar there is a long standing court case, like in so many other temples like Kanchipuram and Sri Rangam, to determine the order in which perumal theertham and prasadam must be distributed, change the order, and the SVs for whom the fundamental law of bhakti is to treat all other bhagavathas as superior to even Bhagavan, will go for each other's throats or kudumi, which ever is easier to grab.

This kind of lunatic hypocrisy is from the tradition of Ramanuja who took the last theertham to teach the SVs that putting other devotees ahead of you is the definitive and distinctive mark of an SV. Judging by this standard, in the present day and age, there is not a single SV, especially within the precincts of the SV Matams and Ashramams, but there are a lot of Iyengars, a whole lot of them.

 

[tks]

I had two objectives in mind when I started this thread, (a) respond to the rewriting of history, so to speak, and (b) to speak to the youngsters, not yet fully brainwashed, of the great progressive legacy of Azhvars and early SV Brahmin Acharyas, who dared to envision a community, albeit an SV one, in which even the mere recognition of one's varna is a reflection of how depraved you are -- one of the early Brahmin SV acharyas declared the mere act of taking cogniszence of another bhagavatha's varna makes the scholarship of such people the same as the ornaments adorning a dead corpse. Pause a moment and think about it, this was said by a Brahmin SV acharya almost 1000 years ago.

Where has such revolutionary spirit of SVs gone?

Just think about it my dear youngsters, Nammazhvar is the foremost Acharya for all SVs, the vaishnava kula kootastar, there is no other earthly acharya above him for all SVs. Yet, if he were to time travel and visit his own birth place today, Azhvar Thirunagari, he will not be allowed to join the SV goshti just because he is an NB. This is the extent of hypocrisy of present day SVs. They will sing the praise of Nammazhvar, but won't let him into their congregation!!!

In the birth place of Nammazhvar there is a long standing court case, like in so many other temples like Kanchipuram and Sri Rangam, to determine the order in which perumal theertham and prasadam must be distributed, change the order, and the SVs for whom the fundamental law of bhakti is to treat all other bhagavathas as superior to even Bhagavan, will go for each other's throats or kudumi, which ever is easier to grab.

This kind of lunatic hypocrisy is from the tradition of Ramanuja who took the last theertham to teach the SVs that putting other devotees ahead of you is the definitive and distinctive mark of an SV. Judging by this standard, in the present day and age, there is not a single SV, especially within the precincts of the SV Matams and Ashramams, but there are a lot of Iyengars, a whole lot of them.

Nara - A while ago I asked you a few questions in this thread. You can choose to not answer of course. I have a few more below ...

1. I do not understand why you have a need to talk about SV or any other tradition to SV youngsters since you have subscribed to atheism as your belief system.

2. Do you really think there are youngsters being taught about castes and discrimination these days and even if that is the case that such youngsters are coming to learn about their tradition from this website?

 

[ashwin_ash]

Nara - A while ago I asked you a few questions in this thread. You can choose to not answer of course. I have a few more below ...

1. I do not understand why you have a need to talk about SV or any other tradition to SV youngsters since you have subscribed to atheism as your belief system.

2. Do you really think there are youngsters being taught about castes and discrimination these days and even if that is the case that such youngsters are coming to learn about their tradition from this website?

Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!

 

[tbs]

Why call them SV, will a simple V not do? Aren't Aiyyangars same as Vaishnavites? Saivites are not called Sri Saivites or 'SS'. The only SS I've seen is SS perungayam podi in Patel Brothers, yummy aroma and flavor!

hi

exactly..........these so called SV's are highly hipocrats in the world....what or if a smartha follow vishnu as god....still these

so called SV's or iyengars never allowed in their ghosti....even im following KEETHU NAAMA smartha of vaishnava sect......

we are smarthas....we are vaishnavas tooo....but not SRI VAISHNAVAS/IYENGAR.....WE ARE STILL IYERS...our kula deivam

perumal...we follow srirangam panchangam....not kanchi mutt.....still we are iyers...not iyengars....