Saguni....

[anandb]

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Utterly despicable. But why blame Hinduism for the shameless acts of a bunch of illiterate and idiotic villagers?

 

[Nara]

Utterly despicable. But why blame Hinduism for the shameless acts of a bunch of illiterate and idiotic villagers?

Like it or not, this is part of the big tent Hinduism Also, why is this idiotic, but belief in other lokas, invisible beings, astro-palmistry, horoscope, belief that Hinduism is pure science, et al. not?

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Hinduism believes in other lokas with its own beings. Western space agencies are spending billions in sending spaceships into space looking for ET beings.
Hindusim believes in astro-palmistry. Almost every major newspaper, magazine including Western ones including gulf based newspapers carries daily astro-columns. Linda Goodman made a fortune selling all the Signs books and a majority of her buyers were Christians. I know a very highly placed guy from the Bohri community here who wanted to pack up and go to India unless his Bohri guru gave him the most auspicious time to do it.

Again I am asking why blame only Hinduism for all these?

 

[Nara]

Again I am asking why blame only Hinduism for all these?

Hinduism is supposed to be a way of life. This is part of that way of life. You cited silly beliefs from the west. Why do you think that since silly beliefs exist in the west -- a complete non sequitur -- the silly and stupid belief of driving out bad spirits by whipping women and girls is not part of Hindusim?

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Again I am asking where in our scriptures or the teachings of our gurus is it said to whip women to drive out bad spirits. If you say about stupid and silly beliefs of the West why can't you accept the whipping to be stupid and silly belief of idiotic, misguided Hindus rather than attributing to Hinduism?

The point I am driving at is can whatever follies humanity commits in the name of religion be attributed to that religion or its scriptures and then call that religion bad. Not only about Hinduism but applicable equally to other faiths as well.

 

[Nara]

Again I am asking where in our scriptures or the teachings of our gurus is it said to whip women to drive out bad spirits.

Dear Shri Anand:
I don't know, and, if I have to guess probably nowhere. I was amused when someone wrote "No "religion" of today explained the structure of Universe correctly as Hinduism did" and thought this will help bring this hot-air balloon a little closer to earth.

Besides, Hinduism is not just some scriptures and dry commentaries, it includes the practices of common folks, such as anga pradhakshinam, putting mottai, taking kavadi, walking on fire, etc. Even in this very forum opinions such as spirits lurking and attracted to blood were discussed. The incidence reported in The Hindu fits in very well with all these practices.

To some religion offers some solace, but for that societies have paid and are continuing to pay a heavy price.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Hinduism believes in other lokas with its own beings.

Does it?

Shri Anand, if you are interested, hope we can discuss this in an other thread, after the current round of discussions (on other things) have been completed....

Regards.

 

[RVR]

To fulfill my grandmother's wishes my head was shaved(Mottai) in Nagore Durga during my childhood days. People throw stones in Mecca even now.

Mottai is very common in Velankanni Church even now.

Blind beliefs are there in every religion. Hinduism is no exception. Reformers like Rajaram Mohan Rai have to correct the evil practices.

Why dravidian parties offer flower garlands in EVR, CNA & MGR statues. Is it not blind belief?

All the best

 

[anandb]

Dear HHji

Does it?

Shri Anand, if you are interested, hope we can discuss this in an other thread, after the current round of discussions (on other things) have been completed....

Regards.

okay, I am no expert in this but can discuss.

Thanks

 

[[email protected]]

Dear Sri easarkey Ji,

I have cautioned you in the past about speaking against one particular group without any justification. Here you are targeting the Moderators, implying that just because we live abroad, we 'allow' or 'speak' one way. This is against the Forum rules. Normally I would delete your post (because you connect our living place to our views/beliefs, which can not be justified), but I am leaving this here for instructional purposes. Please understand that if you make any such statements in the future, you will cease to be a member of this Forum.

Regards,
KRS

To RVji, Both the Moderators are living in foreign soil and the q was about the daily Bread, so they speak like this , I fully agree with your abservation about U.S. The Big Brother aptitude and supplying Arms to Pak ,building war jetties and stocking Arms in Sri Lanka, funding conversion for Christianity in east etc. That is US. srk.

 

[[email protected]]

to All: First the word Religion is wrong. English adapted this word from Hibru. Hinduism is teach and learn technique, this unique is the sprit of Hinduism It never tells about conversion or convince. Hinduism is a free flow of a River you can Bath, Drink water, cultivate fields, lot more. Some faiths insercted during Kings ruling Time. Or by force to accept some rituals . All Rivers leading to the Sea. s.r.k.

 

[anandb]

Dear Naraji

Dear Shri Anand:
I don't know, and, if I have to guess probably nowhere. I was amused when someone wrote "No "religion" of today explained the structure of Universe correctly as Hinduism did" and thought this will help bring this hot-air balloon a little closer to earth.

Besides, Hinduism is not just some scriptures and dry commentaries, it includes the practices of common folks, such as anga pradhakshinam, putting mottai, taking kavadi, walking on fire, etc. Even in this very forum opinions such as spirits lurking and attracted to blood were discussed. The incidence reported in The Hindu fits in very well with all these practices.

To some religion offers some solace, but for that societies have paid and are continuing to pay a heavy price.

Cheers!

Actually whoever wrote about Hinduism understanding the Cosmos better than other faiths is correct. We don't need to go deep into scriptures. It is common knowledge that the universe is referred to as "brahmanda" in our scriptures - shape of a egg which is spherical. Eons back, our Vedas said the life of the cosmos is 311 trillion years. Carl Sagan says that while the West was still struggling with basic counting, the early Hindus could conceive in terms of billions and trillions. In Tamil, we used to call the earth as "Bhugolam" meaning it is circular in shape. Compare this with the Catholic Church which was saying the earth was flat till the 16th century and almost killed Galileo for saying the opposite. And the reason why the Church thought the earth was flat is the oceans would fall off it if it was circular.

It is a matter of personal belief and faith when someone performs anga pradakshinam, mottai, kavadi or fire walking. No way I would term them as mooda nambikkai or evil practices. Anga pradakshinam is a way of thanksgiving to god. It signifies that you are probably willing to go the extra mile and undergo physical torment to do a thanksgiving. Same with mottai. Shedding your hair is almost like shedding your ego because hair forms a pride of place among Indians. These days as most people are going bald at a young age and shaving their heads regularly, mottai is performed even in saloons. Unless you are forcing another person to do them this cannot be categorised in the same class of beating women. BTW, there is a company in Dubai run by an American offering NLP (Neuro Lingusitic Programming) courses and fire walking is one of them. This is what they say about fire walking.

Firewalking is one of the oldest transformational tools the world has ever known. In every culture around the world, people have used firewalking as a means of empowerment, healing and purifying their communities and themselves. It serves as an unforgettable demonstration of human potential, as a lesson in transforming fear into positive energy, and as a way to deeply connect with the living consciousness of this earth.

I think we ordinary humans should delve into the deeper meaning of these practices before we start hurling accusations on religion.

 

[kunjuppu]

To RVji, Both the Moderators are living in foreign soil and the q was about the daily Bread, so they speak like this , I fully agree with your abservation about U.S. The Big Brother aptitude and supplying Arms to Pak ,building war jetties and stocking Arms in Sri Lanka, funding conversion for Christianity in east etc. That is US. srk.

esarkey,

can you please clarify re the impact of moderation on two moderators living outside of india?

not sure how that affects moderation.

it may impact our world view, but even that, i do not think would be different from many who live in india.

i do not think it is fair for you to make arbitrary statement just because we disagree on issues.

atleast you can give some concrete examples of where myself or krs have discussed in such a manner as 'the q was about the daily Bread, so they speak like this ' ... or whatever this quote of yours means.

thank you.

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Sri sapthajihva Ji,

Members do not select the Moderators - for a good reason. Members who hold extreme views on either end will want to select a Moderator of their own kind.

Knowing the 'background' of a moderator has nothing to do with his/her ability to be neutral in allowing all valid views to be posted. What are 'invalid' have clearly been identified under the Forum rules.

If any member has any complaint about the moderation, he/she is welcome to communicate that to other Moderators and to the Owner.

People can make their own judgement about the quality of this Forum.

Regards,
KRS

[Transparency is the key to trust. I dont think that the identity of the mods should be obscured, rather all details pertaining to them should be known to the members so that they can evaluate the forum and trust it.

If this is just a passing by site, it may be alright for the mods to hide their identity. Praveen wants this to be a one-stop site for tamil brahmins... and obscurity should be the first to be done away with.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Anand:

Greetings!

Compare this with the Catholic Church which was saying the earth was flat till the 16th century and almost killed Galileo for saying the opposite. And the reason why the Church thought the earth was flat is the oceans would fall off it if it was circular.

Being better than Catholic church is saying not very much. Carl Sagon did not say anything about the Hindu religion. By Hindus he was referring to the great mathematicians of ancient India. If you wish to count their achievements for Hinduism, then you must bear responsibility for the foolish practices as well, that continue till today.

It is a matter of personal belief and faith when someone performs anga pradakshinam, mottai, kavadi or fire walking. No way I would term them as mooda nambikkai or evil practices. Anga pradakshinam is a way of thanksgiving to god. It signifies that you are probably willing to go the extra mile and undergo physical torment to do a thanksgiving.

[...]

mottai is performed even in saloons. Unless you are forcing another person to do them this cannot be categorised in the same class of beating women.

According to the article there was no compulsion in the case of women getting whipped. If there was a compulsion it was exerted by some parents who thought their girls needed this exorcism. This can be no more a compulsion than making one's children do angapradhakshinam etc.

So, the explanation you offered in defense of the practices I cited fit very well in defense of women getting whipped. They were afterall getting rid of imagined evil spirits, whereas, those doing angapradhasknam etc. were giving thanks to some favor they think they received or hope to receive from some imagined good spirits people generally call god(s). I have a more consistent position, they all are equally pointless and foolish, and all are part of practices that fall under the rubric, Hinduism.

BTW, there is a company in Dubai run by an American offering NLP (Neuro Lingusitic Programming) courses and fire walking is one of them. This is what they say about fire walking.

There are a lot of Americans peddling lots of stuff. Even the WH was not immune from foolishness, astrology was used in the decision making process during Reagan presidency.

I think we ordinary humans should delve into the deeper meaning of these practices before we start hurling accusations on religion.

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar. I don't think there is any deeper meaning in firewalking or mottai or women voluntarily getting whipped.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Sri sapthajihva Ji,

Members do not select the Moderators - for a good reason. Members who hold extreme views on either end will want to select a Moderator of their own kind.

Knowing the 'background' of a moderator has nothing to do with his/her ability to be neutral in allowing all valid views to be posted. What are 'invalid' have clearly been identified under the Forum rules.

If any member has any complaint about the moderation, he/she is welcome to communicate that to other Moderators and to the Owner.

People can make their own judgement about the quality of this Forum.

Regards,
KRS

[Transparency is the key to trust. I dont think that the identity of the mods should be obscured, rather all details pertaining to them should be known to the members so that they can evaluate the forum and trust it.

If this is just a passing by site, it may be alright for the mods to hide their identity. Praveen wants this to be a one-stop site for tamil brahmins... and obscurity should be the first to be done away with.

Hello Shri KRS, my reply is to be read in line with singleliner's post and not as a standalone. I did not intend to say that the moderators should be selected by the members, rather meant that for the forum to grow in a genuine community gathering, it would be better if we knew the details. Take it as a suggestion.

Not to sound rude, but your remarks about complaints against moderators, in this context, are out of tune.

I assure you that there is no malice in my post.

Regards,

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapthajihva Ji,

No, I did not imply you suggested anything out of line. Sometimes, we take the opprtunity to explain/clarify/amplify certain points. Your posting gave me that opportunity.

Identity of any member here, including of the moderators and the owner is governed by privacy policies. If some one wants to reveal his/her identity, it is up to them. Identities of the moderators are well known within the Administration.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

So, the explanation you offered in defense of the practices I cited fit very well in defense of women getting whipped. They were afterall getting rid of imagined evil spirits, whereas, those doing angapradhasknam etc. were giving thanks to some favor they think they received or hope to receive from some imagined good spirits people generally call god(s). I have a more consistent position, they all are equally pointless and foolish, and all are part of practices that fall under the rubric, Hinduism.

evil spirits.

i hear black magic is rather common in muslim communities in india; and christians remove what they call as 'demons'.

lets face it..whatever it maybe, in india, lack of literacy, awareness and superstition has been costing lives (since when god knows).

a 6 year old boy showed all symptoms of tuberculosis since age 3. his father was educated, yet, he was taken to an exorcist; and was not brought to a hospital even while throwing up blood. He was finally brought to a hospital after becoming unconscious (did not wake up in the morning); only to be declared dead.

The mother wailed and blamed certain relatives for putting 'black magic' on her son. The blame game and infighting amongst relatives went on all morning, and noon. Finally in the evening, someone i know, literally gave the whole lot a trashing down before asking them to leave the premises.

The person argued that if they had brought the boy to a doc, his tb could have been very well cured. It all fell on deaf ears. Nobody, in that lot, thought that medicine could cure. It was all about 'spirits' for them.

According to that person (and ofcourse as anyone can see it), such deaths are not uncommon in cities (its not just villages); and frustratingly, people "do not wish to be" educated. Exorcists prevail everywhere.

Sometime back was reading about driving away disease-causing evil spirits in sections of the atharva. Wonder if a miserably degenerate form of it (or the right form of it?) resulted in exorcists doing what they do.

Dunno if 'god' is a spirit; or if good spirits are called gods. Me not too inclined in the concept of 'gods' (its more of just a single "god" inside my head). I do beleive in prayer. And the positivity created by it. It does have a role in the therapy of cure, i think. Perhaps, its a POV / opinion...but have felt it work for me (or so i think?)...dunno whats it about.

 

[Nara]

Hello HH,

Greetings!

I do beleive in prayer. And the positivity created by it. It does have a role in the therapy of cure, i think.

I think positive thinking is a physiological phenomenon and so it is not surprising that it has a role you are suggesting. But I am not so sure about the prayer part. As somebody else alluded to in a completely different thread, prayer was found to not have any effect in the well being of patients, in fact it had a small negative effect.

Our minds seem to have a tendency to remember matches than non-matches. In other words, one forgets or it does not even register all the times prayer does not work, but latches on with gusto when prayer matches with desired outcome.

my 2 cents, and cheers!

 

[narayanee]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Please read this WSJ article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

.......
USA has many faults, but, in my opinion, lots of them are the by products of a fairly free country.

Regards,
KRS

விடாது கருப்பு.

.தொடர்கிறேன்..

அமெரிக்கா ஒரு சுதந்திர நாடு என்பது ஒரு கடந்த கால சம்பவம் தான்.இனி எதிர்காலத்தில் சீனா சொல்படி கேட்டு நடக்க வேண்டிய கட்டாயத்தில் அது உள்ளது.இன்றைய நிலவரப்படி, அடுத்த மாதம் அமெரிக்கா வர இருக்கும் தலாய்லாமாவை இன்றைய ஜனாதிபதி 18 வருடங்களாக இருந்து வரும் சம்பிரதாயத்தை உடைத்து, அவரை சந்திக்காமல் இருக்கப் போகிறார்.ஒபாமா நவம்பரில் சீனா செல்ல இருப்பதாகவும், அதற்கிடையே தலாய்லாமாவைப் பார்ப்பது சீனாவிற்கு பிடிக்காது என்ற காரணத்திற்காகவும், சீனாவின் அழுத்தத்தினால், தவிர்க்கப் போவதாகவும் செய்திகள் அலறுகின்றன.

எங்கே போனது அமெரிக்காவின் மனித நேயக் கொள்கை?இவர்கள் தான் மனித உரிமை கோமான்கள் ஆயிற்றே?வியாபாரத்துக்காக , கொண்ட கொள்கையை அடகு வைக்கும் காரணம் என்ன?இவர்களுக்கு ஈரான், மியான்மார்,வட கொரியா போன்ற நாடுகளைக் கேட்க என்ன யோக்கியதை இருக்கிறது?

இல்லை, சீனா மனித உரிமையில் முன்னேறி விட்டார்கள் என்று அமெரிக்கா சான்றிதழ் வழங்கி விட்டதா?

கடன் பட்டார் நெஞ்சம் போல,
கலங்கினானோ இந்த அமெரிக்க வேந்தன்?

Contd...

America's image of free country is going to be a past tense.And it is going to dance to the tune of China in the future. Various news agencies are blaring that Obama is to avoid meeting Dalai Lama , who is going to visit US next month only to soothe the feelings of China, to which Obama is going to visit in November.

Why should he avoid meeting Dalailama before going to China? Is America now in a position to think independently?Or has China convinced the champion of human rights , US,that it has met its tough standard set by it?

What right US has to expect human right enforcement in Iran, Myanmar,North Korea?

Is this American King
Shattered in his heart,
because of his country's indebtedness to China?

 

[RVR]

Combined BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) economies are going to overtake the economy of USA in the near future. And the BRIC will play a more important role than not only USA but combined G6 countries in the future. I will not be surprised if BRIC nations go for a common currency like Euro.

BRIC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China has stopped further accumulating of US dollars and is accumulating Gold instead. Every move of China has to be closely watched.

 

[[email protected]]

Dear Sri esarkey Ji,

No one is going to be banned for posting one's views without throwing insults at others.

But instead of explaing as you just did here, you in your usual way said some nasty things about the Moderators.

By the way, I am the one who is 'praising' the USA and not Sri Kunjuppu Ji.

I never compare Indian living conditions to the living conditions in USA, except in those instances, where like you, people talk about the USA with ignorance. Their view is from what some left leaning papers print and/or watching the behaviour of some of their NRI relatives. So, when you say something that is not factual about the USA, a person like me who has been living there for four decades need to educate. Like your views about Iyengars, your views about USA is also irrational and not based on logic.

Going forward, if you want to participate in a civilized conversation, explaining your views as you did below, you are welcome to continue. But on the other hand, if you are inclined to throw brick bats and shoes at certain people to vent your frustration, you are not welcome. It is your choice.

You talk about sat sangh and other things, yet to my surprise, now and then you show this type of violence, out of perhaps some hidden frustration.

Regards,
KRS


To: Kunjuppu sir, My reply was not to blame any or the Moderators, To days fashion to say by the NRI TB's visiting india and their actions and way of treating others and only the US is the country to fit for living and India is not fit,they farget one thing they also born in this soil,I found for earning money so many changed their Names like John, Murrey,etc., etc., even my own relatives haveing the same thoughts,one fine morning if the US show hands to this Indians(TBs) the DOORS and go away where they are going to live, US committing lot of mistakes in there Policy, actions, and Big B , we must counter it, In the world highest credit card holders are US citizen. Japan dumping use and throw meterials in US with extented Credit policy and US citizen forced to use that. So yours and KRS reply all praise for US not correct. If you are not happy pl errase my reply or Ban me. s.r.k.

 

[[email protected]]

to Narayanee: Your abservation about US is very TRUE, their country is going to actto the tune of china and japan. s.r.k.

 

[kunjuppu]

To: Kunjuppu sir, My reply was not to blame any or the Moderators, To days fashion to say by the NRI TB's visiting india and their actions and way of treating others and only the US is the country to fit for living and India is not fit,they farget one thing they also born in this soil,I found for earning money so many changed their Names like John, Murrey,etc., etc., even my own relatives haveing the same thoughts,one fine morning if the US show hands to this Indians(TBs) the DOORS and go away where they are going to live, US committing lot of mistakes in there Policy, actions, and Big B , we must counter it, In the world highest credit card holders are US citizen. Japan dumping use and throw meterials in US with extented Credit policy and US citizen forced to use that. So yours and KRS reply all praise for US not correct. If you are not happy pl errase my reply or Ban me. s.r.k.

srk,

let me start with your last line.

unfortunately we cannot let you off so easily. so sir, you are condemned to stay with us, and suffer our presence till the last call

joking sir. don't take it seriously.

re your observations on the u.s...

let me speak only for myself. ok?

i don't think i ever presented a blanket approval of u.s.a (not that it matters). i think in many ways, it is a more flawed society than india.

but in other instances, they are light years ahead of us.

i think, the strength of the u.s., is that they discuss their weaknesses far more than their strength, and hence constantly able to re-invent themselves.

perhaps, it may be good for us to introspect our weakness and thus get a fillip to heal our warts. that is all there is to it.

re the behaviour of american desis - i detest those type of behaviour even more than you do. so we think alike here.

it is highly unlikely that the u.s. will throw out the desis. they are american citizens and the u.s. has by and large accepted its multi ethnic mosaic.

but even if they, maybe we can send these desis to populate andamans or nicobar? (just kidding here)

to close off: the u.s. is a complex society - the u.s. government quite different from the various groups. the american people are a friendly lot and more open minded than most nationalities i know.

but you cannot treat the above statement as a blank cheque of approval for everything umreekan, can you?

hoping to hear more from you on this..thank you.

 

[anandb]

Dear Naraji

Dear Shri Anand:

Greetings!



Being better than Catholic church is saying not very much. Carl Sagon did not say anything about the Hindu religion. By Hindus he was referring to the great mathematicians of ancient India. If you wish to count their achievements for Hinduism, then you must bear responsibility for the foolish practices as well, that continue till today.



According to the article there was no compulsion in the case of women getting whipped. If there was a compulsion it was exerted by some parents who thought their girls needed this exorcism. This can be no more a compulsion than making one's children do angapradhakshinam etc.

So, the explanation you offered in defense of the practices I cited fit very well in defense of women getting whipped. They were afterall getting rid of imagined evil spirits, whereas, those doing angapradhasknam etc. were giving thanks to some favor they think they received or hope to receive from some imagined good spirits people generally call god(s). I have a more consistent position, they all are equally pointless and foolish, and all are part of practices that fall under the rubric, Hinduism.



There are a lot of Americans peddling lots of stuff. Even the WH was not immune from foolishness, astrology was used in the decision making process during Reagan presidency.




Sometimes a cigar is a cigar. I don't think there is any deeper meaning in firewalking or mottai or women voluntarily getting whipped.

Cheers!

At this point I realize where you come from? No point arguing in circles and wasting everyone's time. Goodbye.