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Saguni....

  • Thread starter Thread starter narayanee
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Hello Narayanee:

Greetings!

எங்கே போனது அமெரிக்காவின் மனித நேயக் கொள்கை?இவர்கள் தான் மனித உரிமை கோமான்கள் ஆயிற்றே?வியாபாரத்துக்காக , கொண்ட கொள்கையை அடகு வைக்கும் காரணம் என்ன?இவர்களுக்கு ஈரான், மியான்மார்,வட கொரியா போன்ற நாடுகளைக் கேட்க என்ன யோக்கியதை இருக்கிறது?

You are right about US lecturing the world on human rights, etc., but why criticize commerce. Commerce kept India from bombing Pakistan when the Indian Parliament was attacked by terrorists. If commerce has a moderating effect on US's desire for world domination is it not something that must be welcomed? Of course, the small farmers, workers, and environment must be protected.

On a somewhat related note, the FBI raided the New York home of a G20 meeting protester and conducted a 16-hour search. They seized everything from computers to refrigerator magnets to embroidered wall hangings. His crime -- he used Twitter to inform protesters of police orders and direct them away from the police. Yes, the same Twitter that Iranians used to protest their fraudulent election when the US state department asked Twitter to postpone their scheduled maintenance shutdown. When it comes to hypocrisy US is in a special league, and India desperately wants to be its sidekick.

Cheers!
 
Shri Anandb ji,

I request you to read Mahatma Gandhi's views on sanatana dharma

"I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in the protection of cow … I do not disbelieve in murti puja." (Young India: June 10, 1921)

He has also written as below

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law.

Personally I accept the views of Mahatma Gandhi. I am sure most of us here accept his views. Let us leave it at that and move forward.

All the best
 
Dear Sri anadb Ji,
Sorry for such a delay in my response, which is in 'blue':
Definitely, the USA could not foresee the Taliban but what created it was they left Afghanistan in shambles after the mujahideens defeated the Soviets. USA should have economically built Afghanistan which they failed to do which has now created the Taliban.
Very valid and correct point. I blame the short sighted US policies at that time and we have paid the price with 9/11.
It is not my assessment of Iraq but the experts' assessment. The premise on which Iraq was invaded (presence of WMD) was absolutely false which was proved later. I read an article which says that Depleted Uranium which is used extensively by the US and Israeli army in its arms would qualify more as a WMD. So now who will invade USA and Israel? You hit the nail on the head when you say to "promote American self-interest". Dubya would feel proud of you, KRSji.
As I said, every country should take care of their self interests in the international arena. I would never aplogize as a citizen of the US for pursuing a policy that promotes my country's self interest.
Everyone agrees that almost all major powers around the world, including Russia thought that Sadaam had some nuclear material. They were worried about a 'dirty' bomb. Does it make sense that the USA made such a huge case with Powell in the UN, talking about the existence of WMD? They would have known, if they went in with false pretenses, there would be a huge price to pay - which exactly what happened. So, your logic here about them having a prior knowledge is absolutely groundless.
In addition, they had two or three other reasons to go in to Iraq, which they could have easily used to go in.

Look, what 'China is my brother' slogan by Pandit Ji, got India?
Who gives only the Western bloc nations the right to develop and own a nuclear arsenal? So far Iran has said that it is only for peaceful purposes and they should be given a chance to prove that. Just because Iran makes Israel jittery with its nuclear arsenal is no reason to say that Iran is a rogue nation that is dangerous to the world. What did USA do when Pakistan developed its nuclear weapons? They did not bother because there was no country like Israel near to Pakistan which felt threatened. Iran is going nuclear because it feels threatened by Israel. 40% of the world oil shipments pass through the Straits of Hormuz bordering Iran. They are not foolish to start a war all by themselves unless a nervous USA and Israel start it.
Again, you start with very wrong assumptions. Firstly, Iran did not need to sign the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty in the first place. But they did, unlike India. This is why they are governed by it's provisions. It is the world community that is implementing the provisions of this treaty, not USA alone.

Yes, if I am a tiny country like Israel, where as recently as last year, Iran's Lebanon proxy, Hizbulla was indiscriminately tossing rockets in to Israel, the fear of survival is real. USA's strategic interests are intertwined with Israel's. Only some leftist loonies like Norm Chomsky would propose that Israel is conducting a genocidal policy against the Palestinian Arabs. I guess when a bomb strapped suicidal palestinian blows up hundreds of jews within Istael, it is viewed as Israel driving these psychos in to self annihilating martyrs!

Pakistan was made a pariah in terms of bans on nuclear supplies etc. by the US congress after their tests. So, your contention that USA did not do anything is plain wrong.


Israel once being hounded by all the countries like Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon is history. There is nothing of that sort now. These countries are now keen to develop themselves and not go to war. The point of contention is only Palestine and what Israel is doing there is a gross violation of human rights. You say this region is not pro-western which is not true. All the GCC countries like UAE, Saudi, Bahrain etc depend on Western technology to run their countries. A huge number of its nationals get educated in the West. Same is true for the Levant countries like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc. A good number of Arabs from these countries are Christian and American popular culture is widely prevalent. What people here hate is the US government's policies and its willingness to act like a puppet of Israel.
Sir, it is not valid when you say that all the countries you have mentioned in the mid-east (not the gulf countries) are pro western. The populations of these countries remain anti USA and anti west, mainly fuelled by mis information about Israle's policies.

Isreal was attempted to be wiped out as early as 50 years ago by the concerted actions of these arab countries. Arafat was making money and had no interest in settling with Israel. If your first principle is that you do not recognize Israel as a state, how can there be an accommodation? Arafat was the author of intifadas, where the suicide bombers were martyred. Other Arab states were complicit in this because, they are receiving enormous UN money to upkeep the so called Palestenian refugee camps on their soils. This is why even today they refuse to make those people their citizens even after 60 years!

Any country threatened with extinction at any time has the right to be protected by a super power. If people do not understand this, they are living in a naive world.

I think you have to make the distinction between the ability of commandos and the state's willingness to fight terrorism tooth and nail. Unfortunately the UPA government's track record on this front is quite poor. I personally felt the commandos did quite a good job. Where we failed miserably was on the intelligence gathering front and the resources provided to the commandos to reach the site. We cannot be simply compared to the Mossad. Israel is a small country and because of the constant war-mongering is in a virtual state of preparedness and the entire country speaks in a single voice when threatened.
One can not wish away the disastrous policies of the successive Indian governments in preventing terrorism. Even when the parliament was attacked deliberately with the possible elimination of the entire top level political heads, India did not do anything.
By the way, that person responsible is still in jail and I think will not be executed.
From Pandit Nehru Ji's time, I am afraid the Indian foreign policy is based on some amorphic 'international morality' and not on India's self interest. Such a stance gives way to a weak position in rthe world of power politics, where China, Pakistan and the Arabs use India for their own purposes. And out of frustration and the castrated mentality, we blame the USA. We always have. And we always will.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Sorry for the late response - it is in 'blue': I enlarged the size of the characters, as I have trouble reading small characters.


Thanks KRS.

I can understand your viewpoints. Infact I am very familiar with, due to much access to U.S. media.

Perhaps I can explain where I am coming from .. ie view from north of the 49th parallel?

we see the U.S. health industry has 4 stakeholders whose interests coincide

- the doctors: doctor is a wealth creation profession in the u.s. it attracts the best students, many from a sense of vocation, but also a considerable numbers come in for the big money
- the health insurance – which makes big bucks out of arbitrary and very limited coverage, and denying coverage to those who need it
- the drug industry – for the very same reasons, that once government becomes a big player, there is potential cap to the drug prices (medicines are the most expensive in the u.s. of all countries)
- the litigation malpractice lawyers – who make big money out of taking to court the smallest of mistakes.
I agree with the above.
Add to this group are a significant group of whites, who oppose any health reform for their own reasons. This group needs the reform as much as anyone else, as they are all tightly pledged to their credit cards, and do not have the discretionary income to spend on medical care.
This is where I disagree. Like anywhere, USA has a percentage of white racists, but it is a small percentage. About 85% of Americans are today covered by various health insurances, mostly through employment or medicare. Among the rest we are talikng about 10 million citizens who need real help monetarily for access and 10 million of young who choose to opt out. I do not think, this is a racist based issue.

These whites tend to oppose the health reform because 1) the poor get the most benefit 2) illegal immigrants may benefit 3) latent racist feelings with Obama 4) conservative ideology.
Your point 1 is wrong. Most polls show that Americans by alarge majority want to help the poor to get coverage through some form of subsidy. Feeling towards illegal immigrants not getting the coverage is pervasive, rooted in the belief that people who came in illegally should not benifit from coverage. People know that this goes against logic as most of these people go to the emergency rooms where they can not be denied admission and so the costs are higher. Most Americans think that the health care coverage will lead to a blanket amnesty as was done by Reagan and they do not want it without controlling the influx, which the govt. would not act on. Majority elected Obama. I do not think this was based on any racism towards him. His popularity was akin to other presidents in the first couple of months. I think the issue here is that his stimulus plan is viewed as partisan, loaded with sops to his constituents, like labor. People are not for socialism in this country. Your last point has merit. Conservative ideology here favours Capitalism and less govt.

I think, that usually, all the above feelings are prevalent in those who oppose health reforms, though with varying degrees of importance or influence.

KRS, one’s ideas are influenced by what one reads or sees on TV. Those ads in the U.S. TV re horror stories from Canada Health is not the whole story. These are selected to suit the philosophy of someone who does not want reform. These are advertisements. Maybe you should ask a few real life Canadians, and ask their views of comparative merits of the u.s. and Canadian systems.
Sir, I watched 5 real Canadians interviwed at different networks/cable stations. I have also read the analysis. I rarely form an opinion about anything political/social by looking at advertisements.

Our health care is uniformly good and an overwhelming majority satisfied. Ofcourse, we always crib, and want more. But are we willing to even take an iota away from what is available? NO. it would be political suicide in Canada to meddle with the health care (the local right wing tried and failed).

The whole western world, bar the u.s. has government assisted formal health care because the western civilization has matured enough to realize that availability to good health care is a right. It should not be based on the size of one’s purse.

Re the current health care in the u.s. we, in Canada can relate to Medicare. And Medicaid, to some extent, even though Medicaid appears to us as charity. Not entitlement.

Hope this explains the Canadian viewpoint re U.S. healthcare system and reform. Ultimately it is upto the U.S. government and people to decide. But based on the current debate, I think, the money power of the vested interests are trying their best to sway the country, against the best interests of its citizens.

Canadians, on the whole, have immense goodwill for the U.S. and are very much saddened by this overwhelming, what they see, as right wing propaganda.. .which ultimately appears to us, as cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Everyone here understands that the US health system faces two major issues: Total access and Cost containment. The problem is the Democrats want to impose a govt. run system, which a large group of folks oppose as the govt. has not shown that it can run a huge program like that efficiently (both Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid have enormous problems). There are free market ideas that the democrats do not want to hear. They won't even look at the tort law's role in cost escalation. So this is being fought on idealogical grounds.

Canada is a small country with a slightly left oriented population. Majority of Americans are slightly right off center with a strong belief in the free enterprise system. Hopefully a middle ground will be found.

Thank You.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri kunjuppu Ji,

Sorry again for the late response.

Your thoughtful analysis is very good about incurring debt.

The key I think is an ever growing economy with inflation under control. I think in the USA for mortgage purposes they used to limit the debt payments to below 30% of one's net income. Total debt was also limited to one's 2.5 years gross income. I do not know the guidelines today.

But mortgage, I think promotes movement of population and contributes to economy. That is why I said, in some instances it is good. A huge saving country sometimes may fall in to deflation, as experienced by Japan a while back.

Everything needs to be understood by the current economic conditions.

Regards,
KRS



Thank you krs. Apologies for a late reply, as this has been on my mind for a while now.

There are two distinct aspects about which I wish to comment.

The first is the supposed protestant work ethic. I don’t hear much about it anymore, but in the 1970s when I came over to Canada, it was fairly common, in any conversation, to be referred to the ‘protestant work ethic’ ie work hard, pray, save and live thrift, as the prime reasons for the western prosperity.

I do not know when the protestant work ethic gave way to the protestant credit ethic. From the chart you provided, it appears that the protestant household in the west appear to have high debts.

Sometimes, I think, due to this prevalent debt in every household in the west, that the sense of prosperity is an illusion. Everything we look around from the house itself, to the car, to the vacations etc all enjoyed with much flamboyance, is all owned by the bank or the pawnbroker.

for the americans, it appears to me that they are enjoying 1 million dollar worth of goods, while owning only 100,000. whereas in high savings societies of asia, i think, people are enjoying 100,000 dollars worth of goods, while have a million dollars in savings.

not sure if the above is true. but certainly, it does not look right for the americans.

The home mortgage, I think, increasingly has become perpetual, ie many households do not expect to pay off the mortgage at all, partly due to poor earning power and partly due to high house prices.

Which comes to the second point, ie the service of debt.

I am aware, and agree with you, that as long as debt can be serviced there is no issue. A debt becomes an unbearable load, only when it cannot be serviced ie the minimum interest paid.

I also agree with you, if the American family, suddenly reverts to the thrifts of its forefathers, not only will it sink the U.S. economy, but would probably drag China and the rest of the world, as the world, I think, depends on the Americans buying a large percentage of their products.

Which ofcourse, they oblige, by paying in dollar bills, which for a novice like me, appears to be maintaining its value pretty high, inspite of the economic mess.

Had this been Argentina or Japan or the UK, those currencies would have taken, I think, a bigger beating than what the green buck has for the past year.

the u.s may be midway in the debt loads, but on sheer dollar value, this is trillions and trillions - an amount i cannot fathom!

i have been brought up with the norm, that if the income is one dollar, keep your expenses to be less than that. maybe i should modify this adage for my children - if you earn a buck, ensure your interest payments are less than that? :)


Ps.. a while back we had some relatives from Asia visit us for a prolonged visit. On their return, the wife kidded that now was the time to pay the bills. Pat came the smug answer, ‘we go tourist the asian way – we pay first and then enjoy’
 
Arabs are planning to move out of US Dollar. Please read the following news item appearing today.

Quoting unnamed sources, including Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources, it said Gulf Arab states were in secret talks with Russia, China, Japan and France “to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf.”

The above news appears in Times of India today but web link is not available


All the best
 
Hello Narayanee:

Greetings!

You are right about US lecturing the world on human rights, etc., but why criticize commerce. Commerce kept India from bombing Pakistan when the Indian Parliament was attacked by terrorists. If commerce has a moderating effect on US's desire for world domination is it not something that must be welcomed? Of course, the small farmers, workers, and environment must be protected.

On a somewhat related note, the FBI raided the New York home of a G20 meeting protester and conducted a 16-hour search. They seized everything from computers to refrigerator magnets to embroidered wall hangings. His crime -- he used Twitter to inform protesters of police orders and direct them away from the police. Yes, the same Twitter that Iranians used to protest their fraudulent election when the US state department asked Twitter to postpone their scheduled maintenance shutdown. When it comes to hypocrisy US is in a special league, and India desperately wants to be its sidekick.

Cheers!

நன்றாகச் சொன்னீர்கள் நாரா,

உள்ளொன்று வைத்துப் புறம் ஒன்று பேசுவதில் வித்தகர்கள் அல்லவோ இந்த அமெரிக்கர்கள்.சமீபத்தில் ஈரான் மற்றும் ஆப்கன் நாடுகளில் தேர்தல்கள் நடந்தன.இன்று வரை அமெரிக்க ராணுவத்தின் எண்ணிக்கை தான், ஆஃப்கனில் கோலோச்சுகிறது.அங்கே இவர்களின் கடுமையான மேற்பார்வையில் தான் அங்கே தேர்தலே நடந்தது.போதாக்குறைக்கு, இவர்களின் அடிவருடிகள் வட அமெரிக்கா ஒப்பந்த அமைப்பின் ராணுவங்கள் வேறு நிரந்தரமாகவே அங்கே தங்கி விட்டன.இந்த சூழலில், அங்கே நடந்த தேர்தலில் எந்த அளவிற்கு ஊழல் நடந்தது என்று அவர்களே ஒத்துக் கொள்கிறார்கள்.ஆனால், அங்கே மக்களின் எழுச்சி என்றெல்லாம் இல்லை.இவர்களும் அவ்வப்போது ஒரு ஊறுகாயைப் போலத் தான் இந்த விஷயத்தையே பேசிக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.

ஆனால், ஈரான் தேர்தல் அப்படியல்ல.அங்கே நல்லாட்சி நடக்கிறதா இல்லையா என்பது வேறு விஷயம்.ஆனால், அந்தத் தேர்தலை கடைசி நிமிடம் வரை எந்த அளவுக்கு நடக்க விடாமல் செய்ய முடியுமோ அல்லது அஹ்மத்நிஜாதின் வெற்றியை எப்படியெல்லாம் தள்ளிப் போட முடியுமோ அல்லது கொச்சைப்படுத்த முடியுமோ அந்த அளவிற்கு அமெரிக்காவும், அதன் ஜால்ராக்களும் ஆட்டம் போட்டார்கள்.இன்னமும் போட்டுக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.

இதில் இந்தியாவைப் பற்றி பிறகு விவாதிப்பேன்..

Well said Nara.Americans are No 1 Hypocrites in the world.Recently in Iran and in Afghanistan general elections were held. In both elections it was alleged that widespread rigging and perpetration of fraudulent practices took place.

But despite the presence of ever surging American forces aided by NATO in Afghan, under their very nose elections were rigged by Karzai.And US and their allies though acknowledge this, still, their disapproval is not as vociferous as was in Iran.

Whether in Iran there was a good governance or not , that is another matter. But we all know, how US and its sycophants tried to disrupt their election process till the end, or to delay the victory of Ahmadinijad, or to mudsling his victory and still continue to do so.

That is US.

Regarding India's stand, I will argue later.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dear narayanee Ji,

My response in 'blue' below:

விடாது கருப்பு.

.தொடர்கிறேன்..

அமெரிக்கா ஒரு சுதந்திர நாடு என்பது ஒரு கடந்த கால சம்பவம் தான்.இனி எதிர்காலத்தில் சீனா சொல்படி கேட்டு நடக்க வேண்டிய கட்டாயத்தில் அது உள்ளது.இன்றைய நிலவரப்படி, அடுத்த மாதம் அமெரிக்கா வர இருக்கும் தலாய்லாமாவை இன்றைய ஜனாதிபதி 18 வருடங்களாக இருந்து வரும் சம்பிரதாயத்தை உடைத்து, அவரை சந்திக்காமல் இருக்கப் போகிறார்.ஒபாமா நவம்பரில் சீனா செல்ல இருப்பதாகவும், அதற்கிடையே தலாய்லாமாவைப் பார்ப்பது சீனாவிற்கு பிடிக்காது என்ற காரணத்திற்காகவும், சீனாவின் அழுத்தத்தினால், தவிர்க்கப் போவதாகவும் செய்திகள் அலறுகின்றன.

எங்கே போனது அமெரிக்காவின் மனித நேயக் கொள்கை?இவர்கள் தான் மனித உரிமை கோமான்கள் ஆயிற்றே?வியாபாரத்துக்காக , கொண்ட கொள்கையை அடகு வைக்கும் காரணம் என்ன?இவர்களுக்கு ஈரான், மியான்மார்,வட கொரியா போன்ற நாடுகளைக் கேட்க என்ன யோக்கியதை இருக்கிறது?

இல்லை, சீனா மனித உரிமையில் முன்னேறி விட்டார்கள் என்று அமெரிக்கா சான்றிதழ் வழங்கி விட்டதா?

கடன் பட்டார் நெஞ்சம் போல,
கலங்கினானோ இந்த அமெரிக்க வேந்தன்?

Contd...

America's image of free country is going to be a past tense.And it is going to dance to the tune of China in the future. Various news agencies are blaring that Obama is to avoid meeting Dalai Lama , who is going to visit US next month only to soothe the feelings of China, to which Obama is going to visit in November.
'Free Country' implies what is internal - it is about a culture that is more or less free from it's own government. Nothing to do with external foreign relations. But even if you look at it from foreign perspective, Obama is about to sell a sizeable amount of US war planes to Taiwan. He has not negated his meeting with Dalai Lama - he has just postponed it till after his meeting with the Chinese Leaders.
So, to imply that somehow US is 'kowtowing' to China is wrong.
Why should he avoid meeting Dalailama before going to China? Is America now in a position to think independently?Or has China convinced the champion of human rights , US,that it has met its tough standard set by it?
USA will do what is in her best interest. Human rights is a tool that US uses to advance her foreign policy interests. What is wrong with it?
What right US has to expect human right enforcement in Iran, Myanmar,North Korea?
Nothing except to kindle democracy in those nations so that they are not a menace to their neighbours. With Iran, of course the interests of America lie in the undisrupted oil movement and the survival of Israel. With Myanmar, it is about the real expression of democracy as that nation holds no strategic interest to USA. With North Korea, it is about the risk of nuclear proliferation. All countries of the world have the same interests, but only the US has the wherewithal to act upon her interest.

Is this American King
Shattered in his heart,
because of his country's indebtedness to China?
You got this wrong. China, in a way is a slave to the American $. Sorry to disappoint you.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear narayanee Ji,

I know you responded to Sri Nara, who, in my opinion is an idealogue from the left, without any logical foundation for argument. And conveniently, he has used my words to try to ban me from arguments, as most leftists do. I will be remiss if I do not respond. My response is in 'blue':

நன்றாகச் சொன்னீர்கள் நாரா,

உள்ளொன்று வைத்துப் புறம் ஒன்று பேசுவதில் வித்தகர்கள் அல்லவோ இந்த அமெரிக்கர்கள்.சமீபத்தில் ஈரான் மற்றும் ஆப்கன் நாடுகளில் தேர்தல்கள் நடந்தன.இன்று வரை அமெரிக்க ராணுவத்தின் எண்ணிக்கை தான், ஆஃப்கனில் கோலோச்சுகிறது.அங்கே இவர்களின் கடுமையான மேற்பார்வையில் தான் அங்கே தேர்தலே நடந்தது.போதாக்குறைக்கு, இவர்களின் அடிவருடிகள் வட அமெரிக்கா ஒப்பந்த அமைப்பின் ராணுவங்கள் வேறு நிரந்தரமாகவே அங்கே தங்கி விட்டன.இந்த சூழலில், அங்கே நடந்த தேர்தலில் எந்த அளவிற்கு ஊழல் நடந்தது என்று அவர்களே ஒத்துக் கொள்கிறார்கள்.ஆனால், அங்கே மக்களின் எழுச்சி என்றெல்லாம் இல்லை.இவர்களும் அவ்வப்போது ஒரு ஊறுகாயைப் போலத் தான் இந்த விஷயத்தையே பேசிக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.

ஆனால், ஈரான் தேர்தல் அப்படியல்ல.அங்கே நல்லாட்சி நடக்கிறதா இல்லையா என்பது வேறு விஷயம்.ஆனால், அந்தத் தேர்தலை கடைசி நிமிடம் வரை எந்த அளவுக்கு நடக்க விடாமல் செய்ய முடியுமோ அல்லது அஹ்மத்நிஜாதின் வெற்றியை எப்படியெல்லாம் தள்ளிப் போட முடியுமோ அல்லது கொச்சைப்படுத்த முடியுமோ அந்த அளவிற்கு அமெரிக்காவும், அதன் ஜால்ராக்களும் ஆட்டம் போட்டார்கள்.இன்னமும் போட்டுக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.

இதில் இந்தியாவைப் பற்றி பிறகு விவாதிப்பேன்..

Well said Nara.Americans are No 1 Hypocrites in the world.Recently in Iran and in Afghanistan general elections were held. In both elections it was alleged that widespread rigging and perpetration of fraudulent practices took place.
Sorry - 'hypocrisy' has no meaning in International policy. Your friend today will be your enemy tomorrow. Foreign policy is necessarily based on self interest and so has no moral base.

But despite the presence of ever surging American forces aided by NATO in Afghan, under their very nose elections were rigged by Karzai.And US and their allies though acknowledge this, still, their disapproval is not as vociferous as was in Iran.
Again, there is no absolute 'morality'. USA is in Afganisthan primarily to 'help' the Afghanistanis. They are there to help the American interests. It just so happens that a non corrupt administration in Afghanistan is in their own interest. But if they decide that for the short term they favour a corrupt regime of Karzai, over the supposedly clean Abdullah Abdullah regime, so what? Why would you think that America should be a beacon of some absolute 'morality' in the world, where she would behave in ways contrary to her own self interest? Show me a country that does that in this world?

Whether in Iran there was a good governance or not , that is another matter. But we all know, how US and its sycophants tried to disrupt their election process till the end, or to delay the victory of Ahmadinijad, or to mudsling his victory and still continue to do so.
Are you supporting Ahmadinejad? As an Indian? Oh, my God! His victory? Sorry Madam. You have completely lost me. This proves that you do not understand what the 'Mahdi' theology is about. I am shocked.

That is US.

Regarding India's stand, I will argue later.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear KRSji,

As I said, every country should take care of their self interests in the international arena. I would never aplogize as a citizen of the US for pursuing a policy that promotes my country's self interest.
Everyone agrees that almost all major powers around the world, including Russia thought that Sadaam had some nuclear material. They were worried about a 'dirty' bomb. Does it make sense that the USA made such a huge case with Powell in the UN, talking about the existence of WMD? They would have known, if they went in with false pretenses, there would be a huge price to pay - which exactly what happened. So, your logic here about them having a prior knowledge is absolutely groundless.
In addition, they had two or three other reasons to go in to Iraq, which they could have easily used to go in.

Look, what 'China is my brother' slogan by Pandit Ji, got India?

Read these links
Vijayvaani.com
Vijayvaani.com


Again, you start with very wrong assumptions. Firstly, Iran did not need to sign the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty in the first place. But they did, unlike India. This is why they are governed by it's provisions. It is the world community that is implementing the provisions of this treaty, not USA alone.

Agreed. But Iran says its uranium enrichment program is for peaceful purposes. The Israeli-USA nexus says it is not. This is what the same nexus said that Iraq possessed WMD and used it as a reason to invade Iraq and reduce it to rubble. I can see a pattern here. Iraq, previously and now Iran were the only two countries which could challenge Israel in this region. The former is now a non-entity now. So Iran next? Damn the world community. They are shameless. Whether it is the UN or the World Bank, all they do is shamelessly toe the US line. Do they have a choice?

Yes, if I am a tiny country like Israel, where as recently as last year, Iran's Lebanon proxy, Hizbulla was indiscriminately tossing rockets in to Israel, the fear of survival is real. USA's strategic interests are intertwined with Israel's. Only some leftist loonies like Norm Chomsky would propose that Israel is conducting a genocidal policy against the Palestinian Arabs. I guess when a bomb strapped suicidal palestinian blows up hundreds of jews within Istael, it is viewed as Israel driving these psychos in to self annihilating martyrs!

Please read reports of the ethnic cleansing being carried out by Israel in Palestine and Gaza. I cannot believe you can say they are all innocent and just defending themselves.

Pakistan was made a pariah in terms of bans on nuclear supplies etc. by the US congress after their tests. So, your contention that USA did not do anything is plain wrong.

Pakistan does not need nuclear supplies officially. They have the means to procure them illegally and USA knows about it. Also the billions in economic aid is only further helping Pakistan to arm itself to the teeth. My question is why, USA a democratic country, is helping Pakistan at all especially after conclusive proof that it is the major supplier of terrorists around the world. This also raises questions in my mind as to why Pakistan, a hotbed terrorist spot, is not targeted by the USA-Israel nexus. Probably it is not proximate to Israel.



Sir, it is not valid when you say that all the countries you have mentioned in the mid-east (not the gulf countries) are pro western. The populations of these countries remain anti USA and anti west, mainly fuelled by mis information about Israle's policies.

There is Western antipathy because there is first hand information here about what's going on in Iraq and Israel's atrocities in Gaza and Palestine. Photos of civilian causalities are splashed all over on a regular basis and they are not a pretty sight.

Isreal was attempted to be wiped out as early as 50 years ago by the concerted actions of these arab countries. Arafat was making money and had no interest in settling with Israel. If your first principle is that you do not recognize Israel as a state, how can there be an accommodation? Arafat was the author of intifadas, where the suicide bombers were martyred. Other Arab states were complicit in this because, they are receiving enormous UN money to upkeep the so called Palestenian refugee camps on their soils. This is why even today they refuse to make those people their citizens even after 60 years!

Agree with you about what happened 50 years ago but today everyone except Israel is fed up of war. Israel is still having paranoid fears about getting wiped out. The only countries which could have done it are Iraq and Iran. This cycle of hatred is no good to anyone.

Any country threatened with extinction at any time has the right to be protected by a super power. If people do not understand this, they are living in a naive world.

We are in a Unipolar world now where the only superpower is USA. But to me, the USA is acting like a willing slave of Israel.

One can not wish away the disastrous policies of the successive Indian governments in preventing terrorism. Even when the parliament was attacked deliberately with the possible elimination of the entire top level political heads, India did not do anything.
By the way, that person responsible is still in jail and I think will not be executed.
From Pandit Nehru Ji's time, I am afraid the Indian foreign policy is based on some amorphic 'international morality' and not on India's self interest. Such a stance gives way to a weak position in rthe world of power politics, where China, Pakistan and the Arabs use India for their own purposes. And out of frustration and the castrated mentality, we blame the USA. We always have. And we always will.

I agree with you wholly except why the American government supports Pakistan, a country which exports terror on a wholesale basis.
 
to KRS ji, Thangaling America nattupatruku en vazithukal. s.r.k.

come on srk, what value have you added by this statement?

i tried to read it under different allusions:

- sheer praise
- contempt
- sarcasm

all above three, i summed up, as valueless worthy of a credit defaulting pauper.

surely, srk, you can do better than attack the person!!

feel free to comment on krs' views, but not on krs the person.

we do not know if he is an american patriot. nor is it our business.

we should only read what he writes, and argue based on that. not what we imagine where the person's loyalties lie.

it does not behoove well ...

and by the way, i wrote an extensive note addressed to you (#124 in this thread)yesterday..

whenever you can, please reply.. i would like to continue the train of thought between identifying attributes to a country in general, and the possible error of misunderstandings that results from it.

thank you.
 
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..... அமெரிக்க ராணுவத்தின் எண்ணிக்கை தான், ஆஃப்கனில் கோலோச்சுகிறது.அங்கே இவர்களின் கடுமையான மேற்பார்வையில் தான் அங்கே தேர்தலே நடந்தது.


Long before September 11th Afghanistan was a battleground for the two superpowers. When the dust settled the Taliban nightmare was staring down on Afghanis. Nobody cared.

Only three counties in the entire world recognized the now defunct Taliban government. They were Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Pakistan. All three were, and still are, staunch US allies and cannot survive without US support. So, if US wanted, they could have cut off Taliban at anytime. But in their misguided vision of self interest the USA did not care who ruled Afghanistan or how they ruled.

Then, September 11th happened, and we are told that changed everything. Israeli genocide against Palestinians did not change anything. Unspeakable horror against Afghan women by Taliban before 9/11 did not change anything. One day of terror in US mainland changed everything.

The world was on notice -- either you are with the US or you are with the terrorists, warned Bush. The decider crowed, "When I take action, I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive."

The common Afghan had nothing to do with 9/11, yet he was made to pay the price. Terror reigned down on him from 30,000 feet, and at ground level, terror visits him daily, by Taliban or by Afghan police, or by US troops.

US experienced terror, for one day. Not a single Afghan was responsible. The perpetrators of 9/11 were mostly Saudi, educated in the west, trained in the US, and plotted in Germany. But Afghans continue to be terrorized for 8 long years and still continuing.

In these eight years about ten times as many innocent Afghan civilians have died, compared to the 3000 who died on 9/11, not to mention the constant fear in which the population is forced to live and the oppressive laws against women passed by the US sponsored Afghan legislature.

Another violence ridden election, more than a third of the votes counted are thought to be fraudulent by independent observers. You peel off the thin veneer of democracy and you see a cabal of criminals and mass murderers running the Afghan government at all the levels, with the support of the US.

Life goes on. More troops to Afghanistan, more drone attacks, more civilians dead, more terrorists ....
 
Mr. Nara,

We are normally on the opposite ends of the spectrum but you have said it well here.
A in depth article below of how America has been caught in a pants down situation on so many fronts.

Vijayvaani.com
 
Politics of peace!

Hello everyone!

By now everyone is probably aware that the Nobel Committee has awarded President Barak Obama the Nobel Peace prize for 2009. This is not out of character for the committee. While there have been many excellent recipients, there have also been several questionable and outright undeserving recipients, such as Theodore Rosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, "Mother" Teresa, Menachem Begin, and worst of all, Henry Kissinger.

This announcement comes especially at an ironic time. Obama is all poised to escalate the US military presence in Afghanistan and he is about to embark on a $15 billion expansion of military facilities in the pacific island territory of Guam. Everyone knows Afghanistan, but who cares about Guam, just a tiny island far away in the middle of nowhere.

The UN charter gave US the rights to govern Guam as a protectorate and required US to guide Guam to self-determination. Many decades have passed and Guam for all intents and purposes has remained a colony of US. Now Obama is all set to expand the military installations there with no say in the matter for the indigenous Chamorans.

Another such island is Chagos, aka Diego Garcia, that was depopulated by force by the British at the behest of US.

The rich and powerful get to do whatever they want and also give themselves a pat in their back with awards such as these. Coming right after Bush and being the first Black President, the world is swooning over him. In the most part, at least in foreign policy, he is nothing but Bush-light so far. Giving him the peace prize is fresh indeed.
 
Nobel peace prize is downgrading the credibility of the committee members. Kissinger, Obama and few earlier US Presidents have got the awards.

Mahatma Gandhi was not considered for the prize but Kissinger was awarded. It is high time people and media question the credibility of the committee deciding the peace prize.
 
I consider it a badge of honour that our Mahatma did not receive the Nobel Peace prize. It is mainly a political prize, to advance a particular type of world vision more and more based on socialism.

Regarding increasing the US troops in Afghanistan, I hope they do so immediately. Failure there is not an option and would be disastrous for US, in the short run and for the entire world in the long run.

I have been to Guam. Most of the people there want to continue the US presence and welcome the stationing of the US forces there. The additional troops there are to supplant the reduction of troops from South Korea.

Any person who has a realistic and balanced view of the US role in the world without any idealogical bent would agree that the above are the proper courses to follow.

Regards,
KRS
 
If nuclear non-proliferation is the main consideration for awarding the prize to President Obama, then Rajaji should have got it long back. He fought against nuclear weapons throughout his life. Infact when India conducted nuclear test in 1974, he condemned it strongly and wrote that we don't have any moral right to talk about non-proliferation with other countries in the world.
 
Nobel peace prize is downgrading the credibility of the committee members. Kissinger, Obama and few earlier US Presidents have got the awards.


I am not a fan of the 2009 prize to Obama, but it is unfair to put Obama's name next to the mass-murderer Kissinger. I included Kissinger's name only to highlight how ridiculous the peace prize can be, not to in anyway imply Obama is somehow comparable to Kissinger.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Venkataramani Ji,

We need to understand that in the international arena, except for Gandhi Ji, no other leader is regarded highly, whatever are their contributions to the humanity and civilization.

This is partly because of our religion, which is not viewed positively in the west, in general. Also, mainly because, our leaders have not adopted a 'strong India' mentality, eradicating poverty and advancing the material well being of the nation. They have been and are preaching to the world from this curious position of weakness that does not befit a nation of one billion people.

My two cents.

Regards,
KRS
 
If Kissinger is a 'mass mrderer', Obama is definitely a 'cold blooded killer'. How about him stepping up the attacks on the Al Qaeda / Taliban guys from the remote controlled airplanes, that also took of scores of innocent people, since he took office?

Should he not be tried in the International Court of justice?

Regards,
KRS
 
Mahatma Gandhi was not considered for the prize but Kissinger was awarded. It is high time people and media question the credibility of the committee deciding the peace prize.


Dear Shri R.Venkataramani Sir,

Greetings!

Mahathma Gandhi was nominated 5 times. But for one reason or another he was not awarded the prize. During those colonial times, even overt racism was not very uncommon. That may very well have played a role.

The last time he was nominated was in 1948, but was assassinated a few days after the nomination. It seems the prize committee wanted to award it to the Mahathma posthumously, but the rules permitted awards only to living persons or organizations. Since Mahathma Gandhi did not belong to any organization they could not do that either. Probably to make amends, the Nobel Prize committee did not award the peace prize to anyone that year.

Not awarding the peace prize to Mahathma Gandhi is probably the most discussed topic in the history of peace prize. Everyone agrees that nobody deserves the prize more than him. Later member of the committee have expressed regret over this glaring omission.

In later years, there are at least two awards that recognized Mahathma Gandhi indirectly. They are (i) Dr. MLK, and (ii) Nelson Mendella. If a Gandhi were to emerge in this day and age the west will fall over each other to recognize such a person.

My point was only about awarding the peace prize to (a) someone who is getting ready to escalate military involvement in Afghanistan and further militarize a small island, Guam, without the consent of the locals, and (b) someone who made lots of promises but yet to make any headway in delivering on them, whether it is peace in West Asia where he coddles a murderous Israeli regime, or closing Guantanamo Bay, or, to the eternal shame of USA, bringing to justice those who made torture standard interrogation procedure.

Cheers!
 
Obama has not yet proved anything. It is too premature to consider him for the prize.
Is the prize meant for anticipating his future actions? The highest global peace award has become a laughing stuff.

Nobel prizing committee has left lot of questions unanswered.
 
hi all,
Nobel prize for peace is mainly influenced and politically motivated...
not much in quality/ability in international affairs....time will give
solution to some unanswered questions....

regards
tbs
 
nobel peace prize awardees have been controversial on many an occassions.

in this context, i think, awarding obama, is pretty respectable.

the nobel committee has clearly stated that the award is a reinforcement to obama's world view. that the u.s. military force cannot be the sole arbiter for world problems.

obama has repeatedly said that he seeks cooperation with and working together as partners with the rest of the world.

you can see it in his approach to iran.

yes, he is running two wars, which he inherited.

iraq, he is getting the u.s. out.

afghanistan, obama is exploring alternatives. yesterday, there was reports of giving taliban a say in governing.

what obama is practising, is the policy that there is no 'one size fits for all' solutions to the world.

the key issues are poverty and corruption. educated masses tend to be more discerning and work to raising themselves out of poverty.

increased wealth paradoxically produces smaller families.

all the problems, and incidentally all the solutions are interrelated.

i think, the nobel has realized that obama, is now the only leader in the world, who has perhaps given this path to a peaceful humanity, a fighting chance.

he has broken the previous guns and more guns policies of previous u.s. adminstrations.

it is no surprise, that the nobel hopes that obama, will atleast, restore some aspects of u.s ideals back into this world.

it is based on this hope that barack obama was awarded the nobel peace prize, so early in his presidency.

nothing wrong with that.

and nothing wrong, if he did not succeed in the ultimate. atleast he tried.

i wish barack all success in his endeavours.
 
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