Science and Spirituality

[renuka]

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Vaagmi Ji,

I have not yet stated my hypothesis completely yet. How can you comment about it. You seem to be in a hurry. Let me first state my hypothesis fully which I will do and then let us talk about measurements and quantification.

OMG Sravna...
You replay the same lines over and over again.

Even once before when I questioned you..you stated I am in a hurry..I should wait for you to complete your hypothesis etc.

Its just escapism cos you have no answers as usual.

Give it up Sravna...you cant be taking everyone for a ride here.

You write pages but you say how can anyone comment?LOL

 

[sravna]

lol...I was just going to ask the same question.

Sravna..yes...what is the text which is your back up?

I was referring to the recording and attestation in our spiritual texts, of spiritual power. No specific authority

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna...

Sunyam Adah Sunyam Idam
Sunyat Sunyamuddchate
Sunyaysa Sunyamadaya
Sunyameva Vashisyate


This is void..that is void
From void arises void
Verily void remains when void is removed.

 

[sravna]

OMG Sravna...
You replay the same lines over and over again.

Even once before when I questioned you..you stated I am in a hurry..I should wait for you to complete your hypothesis etc.

Its just escapism cos you have no answers as usual.

Give it up Sravna...you cant be taking everyone for a ride here.

You write pages but you say how can anyone comment?LOL

No I have not yet presented a complete hypothesis but only bits and pieces. I will present it and you are free to comment on it.

 

[renuka]

I was referring to the recording and attestation in our spiritual texts, of spiritual power. No specific authority

Udkur(mention) it.

Sravna..you have to be specific..which text is your evidence.
How come no evidence even for this?

 

[Vaagmi]

Ha ha ha...you are starting to sound like me!

Believe me the answer will be " the onus is on you Vaagmi Ji"

You wont get any answers..keep trying.

I have been trying for a very long time.

Even I asked before..measuring unit..energy cant be destroyed etc..


I cant stop laughing.

Omg! I am really laughing so much.

Renukaji,

I am a little different in my approach to this.

While you can and do hit below the belt at times by becoming subjective, I understand and suspect that Sravna may have really something to tell us. My effort is to help him come out with it.

I believe Sravna is like all of us. We all have come face to face with phenomenon which are outlandish, which do not fall within our known familiar coordinates, and which can not at all be explained. Only Sravna has gone one step further, he has started believing that he has understood that phenomenon. He might have or he might not have. And he is trying to explain it to us and is failing in his effort.

I can give you another instance:

I had nasal polyps a few years back. The Doctor, after an endoscopy advised a surgical operation. I was reluctent as I believe in the philosophy that the human body should be given enough opportunity to come to terms with reality or to fight it itself before an external intervention. So I decided to postpone the surgery as it was not a life threatening situation. Then I experimented. I willed/intensely wished that the polyp should atrophy and go. My relatives were angry and sad. But I persisted. I spent every day half an hour in the "willing" session not known to any one. And the polyp is gone in six months. I am happy that it worked. I do not know whether it will work in another situation or not. And I do not think that I have discovered anything new. It is just God's creation of human body with enough curing potential. I subscribe to the theory that we help the body quickly win the battle by putting in medicines/chemicals which is an overkill situation. I agree that the situation will be different if it is a painful affliction.

The difference between me and Sravna is that I took it as an isolated event while sravna when he came across a similar situation perhaps thought it is a new discovery. He is trying to perhaps propogate it. Only problem is he has tied himself in knots as the dimensions of the problem are so complicated.

 

[renuka]

No I have not yet presented a complete hypothesis but only bits and pieces. I will present it and you are free to comment on it.

Even last year you told me the same thing..when cornered this is your modus operandi.

If its bits and pieces then how could you come to conclusions that scientists are half baked when your hypothesis is not even half done.

 

[sravna]

Even last year you told me the same thing..when cornered this is your modus operandi.

If its bits and pieces then how could you come to conclusions that scientists are half baked when your hypothesis is not even half done.

I have an intuitive grasp of the solution. Trust me I will present my theory soon.

 

[sravna]

Thank you Vaagmi Ji. I really do have something to say. I will say it soon

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

I am a little different in my approach to this.

While you can and do hit below the belt at times by becoming subjective, I understand and suspect that Sravna may have really something to tell us. My effort is to help him come out with it.

I believe Sravna is like all of us. We all have come face to face with phenomenon which are outlandish, which do not fall within our known familiar coordinates, and which can not at all be explained. Only Sravna has gone one step further, he has started believing that he has understood that phenomenon. He might have or he might not have. And he is trying to explain it to us and is failing in his effort.

I can give you another instance:

I had nasal polyps a few years back. The Doctor, after an endoscopy advised a surgical operation. I was relectant as I believe in the philosophy that the human body should be given enough opportunity to come to terms with reality or to fight it itself before an external intervention. So I decided to postpone the surgery. Then I experimented. I willed/intensely wished that the polyp should atrophy and go. My relatives were angry. But I persisted. I spent every day half an hour in the "willing" session. And the polyp is gone in six months. I am happy that it worked. I do not know whether it will work in another situation or not. And I do not think that I have discovered anything new. It is just God's creation of human body with enough curing potential. I subscribe to the theory that we help the body quickly win the battle by putting in medicines/chemicals which is an overkill situation. I agree that the situation will be different if it is a painful affliction.

The difference between me and Sravna is that I took it as an isolated event while sravna when he came across a similar situation perhaps thought it is a new discovery. He is trying to perhaps propogate it. Only problem is he has tied himself in knots as the dimensions of the problem are so complicated.

Polyps can atrophy..and since its not fatal there is no acute need for surgical intervention.

Human body self repairs.

So its not spiritual.
Since you are aware of the difference its a healthy
state of perception.

I am not against spiritual healing..it does exists..I know a few people who can actually heal.

These types do not find fault with science..they just work silently.


BTW..I dont hit below the belt..it can be fatal for a particular gender.

Whatever the difference of approach you and me apply in dealing with Sravnas hypothesis..the answers are eventually identical.

BTW I had a dream 2 yrs ago which did not make any sense then but it finally became a reality 3 weeks ago.

So spiritual or co incidence?
May be both?

Possible..but I wont preach and find fault with science for this.

 

[sravna]

BTW..I dont hit below the belt..it can be fatal for a particular gender.
.

Funny Renuka. For the other gender it could be fetal!

 

[Vaagmi]

Polyps can atrophy..and since its not fatal there is no acute need for surgical intervention.

Human body self repairs.

So its not spiritual.
Since you are aware of the difference its a healthy
state of perception.

I am not against spiritual healing..it does exists..I know a few people who can actually heal.

These types do not find fault with science..they just work silently.


BTW..I dont hit below the belt..it can be fatal for a particular gender.

Whatever the difference of approach you and me apply in dealing with Sravnas hypothesis..the answers are eventually identical.

BTW I had a dream 2 yrs ago which did not make any sense then but it finally became a reality 3 weeks ago.

So spiritual or co incidence?
May be both?

Possible..but I wont preach and find fault with science for this.

BTW..I dont hit below the belt..it can be fatal for a particular gender.----LORL.

And Renukaji, Here in UK Medical care accepts this basic premise.

My friends here tell me that when you make the first contact for any ailment, the Doctor encourages you to avoid taking medicines and try to enlighten you about your your defence mechan ism's potential. They are very reluctant to write out a prescription to the pharmacy until after the third visit to them. When I compare this with the Indian situation, I think there is a lesson for Indian Doctors.

 

[Vaagmi]

funny renuka. For the other gender it could be fetal!

lorrl.

 

[renuka]

BTW..I dont hit below the belt..it can be fatal for a particular gender.----LORL.

And Renukaji, Here in UK Medical care accepts this basic premise.

My friends here tell me that when you make the first contact for any ailment, the Doctor encourages you to avoid taking medicines and try to enlighten you about your your defence mechan ism's potential. They are very reluctant to write out a prescription to the pharmacy until after the third visit to them. When I compare this with the Indian situation, I think there is a lesson for Indian Doctors.

Dear Vaagmi ji..the best is being conservative in treatment as long its not an acute emergency or life threatening.

Then follow up patient to note progress..if they heal spontaneously well and good.

If they dont..next course of action but be careful enough to allow patient for a 2nd opinion too.

 

[renuka]

Funny Renuka. For the other gender it could be fetal!

Good one Sravna!

Really good.

 

[Raghy]

Mind has a million plus facets.

Our understanding of our own mind is just the tip of the iceberg.

The potential of the mind-ours as well as others'-is vast and only a small bit of it is understood.

Science deals with tangibles within the space and time here and now.

Mind's capacity transcends time space and all other substrates.

An example:

I was a sworn communist then. I believed in what is here and now only. I could not let go this influence of materialst philosophy even after I outgrew the communist stronghold on me.

I visited my ancestral village one day with family and was standing and praying before the deity in the local temple there. The temple was dilapidated as is the case with many temples in the distant villages of Tamilnadu. With the decline of agraharams and residents of agraharams fleeing to cities and abroad what we have in these village agraharams is just the dilapidated temples and an old archakar who looks forward eagerly to that rare visitor from abroad. there are many such temples where even the nithya pooja is not conducted because of the non availability of an archaka.Finding the condition of the temple I felt very sad and so when I got back to my city I gathered the present addresses of the old residents of the agraharam meticulously and then formed a Kainkarya Sabha by calling for a General Meeting of the decendents of the village residents. I included the current residents too in the task. When our money contributions crossed the target I had fixed for the project, I decided along with the committee members to go for the renovation and kumbabhishekam of the temple.

At this point a friendly suggestion from an elderly gentleman led me to a prasna astrologer. As I was waiting for the man who was taking his breakfast then, I was not aware of the experience I was going to have. As he finished his task and came into the drawing room where I was waiting he had a look at my face for a good five minutes as I stood up. Then he asked me whether I had come to consult him about the desirability of doing a temple work. I was surprised. I said yes and he asked me to sit down.

He sat down too and closed his eyes for about ten minutes and then looking at me asked whether my ancestral house in the village was north facing. I said yes. Then he said the temple must be that of Navaneetha Krishna. i said yes. Then he said my house had a water channel running from west to east at the backyard. I said yes. Then he said the temple does not have utsava murthy-just a moola vigraha. I was dumb found and said yes. Then he concluded saying the Murthy would be happy if we carry out repairs and do kumbabhishekam.

And as if my time was up he waved his hands. I got up offered the fruits I had taken and came out. It took some time for me to come out of the effect of that meeting.

When I thought about it later, I understood that the human mind has several abilities and what we have understood is just the tip of the ice berg. The man had perhaps used my presence there as the link tto reach an extraordinary plane in which with his mind he could move back and forth in time and space. And that ability is perhaps what we call prasnam.

Sravnaji here too is talking about such an ability and he calls it spiritual energy. He calls it that perhaps because he is a teacher who teaches energy propogation to his students. But to call his ideas as just a lot of hot air is not right. Science technology came to my help when I reconstructed the temple building. So science technology is real. But that man there sitting in his house and talking to me about my village with photographic precision was also true. That is what is called the mind's ability by Sravnaji. I would prefer to give Sravnaji a long rope to come around to a conclusion as to whether he succeeded in his efforts to understand and profile his mind's abilities or not. I won't dare call it all mannangatti prematurely. Period.

Dear Vaagmi,

We can not understand how the Prasna Astrologers mind worked. Obviously he could read your mind to get all the information. While we can't read a mind of a Prasna Astrologer, his peer, a different Prasna Astrologer would know exactly how it was done.

When you marvel the Prasna Astrologers mind, that same astrologer would marvel your mind capacity as a scientist... knowledge you would consider as "basic" may be unfathomable to the astrologer.

We haven't bothered or not able to find time to study and understand everything around us... because we have to elk out a living....

Knowledge is not spirituality. We may have knowledge about unexplained situations around us... although it is unexplained, still it is evidenced and comes under science. For example, we knew to apply neem paste after an episode of chicken pox... Our forefathers didn't know the reason, but they knew it worked.... Lot of our customs, although not explained, were evidenced working.....

We did not have hubble telescope in the past.... it was very hard to explain common people about galaxies and universe/ universes..... Lots philosophies were churned out... every philosophy was the respective author's opinion.

There is no such thing as spirituality. For the Prasna Astrologer, reading your mind was science... he must have done it so many times... He knew he was right... But not everyone is privy to such sciences.

In my opinion, unlocking our mind is " Realisation"... When the mind is unlocked, we realise ourselves part of this universe....

Our mind is trapped in this body.... that's why we feel the pain.... physical/ psychological... When the mind is free, we won't feel pain... we can choose to be happy all the time... We are only confusing ourselves with anything " spiritual"....

 

[a-TB]

Oh no, not another thread to boast about Mr Sravana's power by Mr Srvana. In the last 3 or 4 years there must have been about 100+ threads boasting the same. Madam Renuka is fascinated each time and challenges. Mr Sravana gives the same kind of answers.

Women of this forum are the only sane ones here it appears.

Superstition and religiousity can make one unable to think .

We need to create a new section for discussions about spirituality, Sravana's power, Pei, Pisasu.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi,

We can not understand how the Prasna Astrologers mind worked. Obviously he could read your mind to get all the information. While we can't read a mind of a Prasna Astrologer, his peer, a different Prasna Astrologer would know exactly how it was done.

When you marvel the Prasna Astrologers mind, that same astrologer would marvel your mind capacity as a scientist... knowledge you would consider as "basic" may be unfathomable to the astrologer.

We haven't bothered or not able to find time to study and understand everything around us... because we have to elk out a living....

Knowledge is not spirituality. We may have knowledge about unexplained situations around us... although it is unexplained, still it is evidenced and comes under science. For example, we knew to apply neem paste after an episode of chicken pox... Our forefathers didn't know the reason, but they knew it worked.... Lot of our customs, although not explained, were evidenced working.....

We did not have hubble telescope in the past.... it was very hard to explain common people about galaxies and universe/ universes..... Lots philosophies were churned out... every philosophy was the respective author's opinion.

There is no such thing as spirituality. For the Prasna Astrologer, reading your mind was science... he must have done it so many times... He knew he was right... But not everyone is privy to such sciences.

In my opinion, unlocking our mind is " Realisation"... When the mind is unlocked, we realise ourselves part of this universe....

Our mind is trapped in this body.... that's why we feel the pain.... physical/ psychological... When the mind is free, we won't feel pain... we can choose to be happy all the time... We are only confusing ourselves with anything " spiritual"....

Dear Sri Raghy,

Wellcome back after a pretty long absence from here. How are you and how is life?

I was trying to point out just this much:

We are all born into a given situation about which we had little control. And the world continues to exist. We come and go.

This is a reality--a given reality which we perceive--We all perceive the same way.

There are realities like this which are in a different plane where the very nature of reality itself is different and we get occassional exposure to such a reality -- or is it realities?--only for a fleeting second or seconds. And Sravnaji calls it by the name energy level and struggles to explain what it is and he calls it also spiritual energy.

I just wanted to make this point and nothing more. My position in this matter is somewhat a little different from that of Renukaji who dismisses it outright and demands explanation and proof in scientific terms.

Any way thanks for your input.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sri Raghy,

Wellcome back after a pretty long absence from here. How are you and how is life?

I was trying to point out just this much:

We are all born into a given situation about which we had little control. And the world continues to exist. We come and go.

This is a reality--a given reality which we perceive--We all perceive the same way.

There are realities like this which are in a different plane where the very nature of reality itself is different and we get occassional exposure to such a reality -- or is it realities?--only for a fleeting second or seconds. And Sravnaji calls it by the name energy level and struggles to explain what it is and he calls it also spiritual energy.

I just wanted to make this point and nothing more. My position in this matter is somewhat a little different from that of Renukaji who dismisses it outright and demands explanation and proof in scientific terms.

Any way thanks for your input.

Oye..kya yaar..
Who says I dismiss anything outright.
I surely believe in various levels of existence..beings ..pei .pisasu..I have said many times in Forum that I have seen some Ghosts before..had futuristic dreams etc.

Yes..I dont have evidence for it so I dont go around claiming powers for it.
I had before a CCTV evidence for an unnatural occurance but tried to look at it logically.

I am aware that different levels of energy exists..subtle plane too could exists..after all we Hindus have beliefs in Pitr Loka etc.

But I dont call scientists half baked..find fault with science etc cos as I said..none of us here including me and you have left a mark in this world in any field or even famous or infamous besides some indulging in pectoral thumping to have a certain gene that sounds like Scandinavian surname.

BTW The questions you ask are not polar opposites of my questions.

Didnt you disagree with Sravna when he said he can make physical energy vanish?

I too had told Sravna that energy can not vanish and only changes form.

Next I asked for evidence from scriptures that Sravna said is his back up..you too asked it from him.


So you see no big difference..the major difference is I know not to encourage too much of unreal thoughts in anyone for it can have severe consequences.

When you ask for evidence from anyone it makes the person stay within the realm of logic and stay grounded.

Its healthy for the mind..too much unproven ..no evidence attachment to "spirituality" poses the risk of delusion.

So you see even though some Indians believe Penn Buddhi Pin Buddhi but in this case I am thinking 10 steps ahead of you.

I do not encourage delusions.

 

[Vaagmi]

Oye..kya yaar..
Who says I dismiss anything outright.
I surely believe in various levels of existence..beings ..pei .pisasu..I have said many times in Forum that I have seen some Ghosts before..had futuristic dreams etc.

Yes..I dont have evidence for it so I dont go around claiming powers for it.
I had before a CCTV evidence for an unnatural occurance but tried to look at it logically.

I am aware that different levels of energy exists..subtle plane too could exists..after all we Hindus have beliefs in Pitr Loka etc.

But I dont call scientists half baked..find fault with science etc cos as I said..none of us here including me and you have left a mark in this world in any field or even famous or infamous besides some indulging in pectoral thumping to have a certain gene that sounds like Scandinavian surname.

BTW The questions you ask are not polar opposites of my questions.

Didnt you disagree with Sravna when he said he can make physical energy vanish?

I too had told Sravna that energy can not vanish and only changes form.

Next I asked for evidence from scriptures that Sravna said is his back up..you too asked it from him.


So you see no big difference..the major difference is I know not to encourage too much of unreal thoughts in anyone for it can have severe consequences.

When you ask for evidence from anyone it makes the person stay within the realm of logic and stay grounded.

Its healthy for the mind..too much unproven ..no evidence attachment to "spirituality" poses the risk of delusion.

So you see even though some Indians believe Penn Buddhi Pin Buddhi but in this case I am thinking 10 steps ahead of you.

I do not encourage delusions.

Renukaji,

While delusions are certainly harmful to the one under its spell, Science has not been consistent in a larger canvass. Within a given situation science works. It is because the theories are perceived by scientists at a given time with the given situation and the given instruments and equipments for perception.

From DesCartes to Newton to Einstein it has been a story of our starting with an effort to make a pillaiyar and ending up ultimately with a Monkey.

Every theory is thus true relative to time. It is not true for all times.

Even the theory of cause and effect is flawed. Please read Emmanuel Kant's A Crique of Pure Reason and you may gain some insight into this riddle.

So, my dear friend who is 10 steps ahead, please hold. Go to the nearest library.

After all, it is in a way true that scientific theories appear to be half-baked when we look back with the benefit of fresh knowledge that has been uncovered.

I have a lot of respect for women. i believe strongly that my wife is atleast 30 steps ahead of me in thinking. LOL.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

While delusions are certainly harmful to the one under its spell, Science has not been consistent in a larger canvass. Within a given situation science works. It is because the theories are perceived by scientists at a given time with the given situation and the given instruments and equipments for perception.

From DesCartes to Newton to Einstein it has been a story of our starting with an effort to make a pillaiyar and ending up ultimately with a Monkey.

Every theory is thus true relative to time. It is not true for all times.

Even the theory of cause and effect is flawed. Please read Emmanuel Kant's A Crique of Pure Reason and you may gain some insight into this riddle.

So, my dear friend who is 10 steps ahead, please hold. Go to the nearest library.

After all, it is in a way true that scientific theories appear to be half-baked when we look back with the benefit of fresh knowledge that has been uncovered.

I have a lot of respect for women. i believe strongly that my wife is atleast 30 steps ahead of me in thinking. LOL.

Half baked is a word that has pride as a substratum.
Half baked is not analytical in expression.

For me its simple...humility is the best policy especially when we have not contributed anything to any field besides just making a living out of discovery of others.

A mind that is logical knows that every finding in any field be it science or spirituality is only oriented to time..place and person based on the perception of the founder which is subject to change in event of new findings.

Ok lets talk spiritual..even in philosophy we dont have any Acharya having same ideology.

For eg..Lets take Adi Shankara and Ramanuja .
Both had differing views.
Would it be right to say either one is half baked?

For eg Vishisthadvaita stops at Vishnu..a God high up in heaven with a Messenger(peace be upon him).
Even though I feel Vishisthadvaita doesnt fully have an endpoint..I wont call it half baked.

I would say its Ramanuja's perception to time and place best suited for the crowd he was handling.

Next Advaita..well it appeals to me but who knows in future there would be another philosophy that would over ride even Advaita?

So nothing is half baked..everything is a dish that is made to suit the demands of the era.

 

[Vaagmi]

Half baked is a word that has pride as a substratum.
Half baked is not analytical in expression.

For me its simple...humility is the best policy especially when we have not contributed anything to any field besides just making a living out of discovery of others.

A mind that is logical knows that every finding in any field be it science or spirituality is only oriented to time..place and person based on the perception of the founder which is subject to change in event of new findings.

Ok lets talk spiritual..even in philosophy we dont have any Acharya having same ideology.

For eg..Lets take Adi Shankara and Ramanuja .
Both had differing views.
Would it be right to say either one is half baked?

For eg Vishisthadvaita stops at Vishnu..a God high up in heaven with a Messenger(peace be upon him).
Even though I feel Vishisthadvaita doesnt fully have an endpoint..I wont call it half baked.

I would say its Ramanuja's perception to time and place best suited for the crowd he was handling.

Next Advaita..well it appeals to me but who knows in future there would be another philosophy that would over ride even Advaita?

So nothing is half baked..everything is a dish that is made to suit the demands of the era.

Ok. That is alright.

you can have your views.

I have already stated my views on science. I stand by my views.