Secular India

[biswa]

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Ok, let me add one more thing to agree with Ms KV. I think Sanskrit is not the best medium to propagate Hindu texts to the masses because nobody speaks it. Perhaps many forum members will not agree.

It is true that we have to evolve if we have to match Christianity. After all the first gospels were in Greek and Jesus's language was Aramaic. I am sure most printed copies of the Bible are in English.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Chandru,

Pl read this: Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10 Chapter 69

Just like Arjuna whose relationship with Krishna is one of friendship, similarly the 16, 108 queens of Krishna had conjugal relationship with Krishna. Since, Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead, he can maintain an unlimited number of spirit souls as wives. In fact, 5000 years back when he married the 16, 108 wives, he provided each and everyone with a palace and other necessities. Moreover, he expanded himself into 16, 108 in order to assoicate with the 16, 108 queens. It is not that, the queens had to wait for Krishna so many days as somebody wrongly commented projecting one's own conception of a limited person on Krishna who is God.

The sage Narada was astonished about the lila of Krishna.

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.69 Summary

This chapter relates how Narada Muni was amazed to see the household pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna, and how he offered prayers to the Lord.

After killing the demon Naraka, Lord Krsna had simultaneously married sixteen thousand maidens, and sage Narada wanted to observe the Lord's diverse activities in this unique family situation. Thus he went to Dvaraka. Narada entered one of the sixteen thousand palaces and saw Goddess Rukmini personally rendering menial service to Sri Krsna, despite her being in the company of thousands of maidservants. As soon as Lord Krsna noticed Narada, He got up from His bed, offered obeisances to the sage and seated him on His own seat. Then the Lord bathed Narada's feet and sprinkled the water on His own head. Such was the exemplary behavior of the Lord.

After conversing with the Lord for a short while, Narada went to another of His palaces, where the sage saw Sri Krsna playing at dice with His queen and Uddhava. Going from there to another palace, he found Lord Krsna coddling His infant children. In another palace he saw Him preparing to take a bath; in another, performing fire sacrifices, in another, feeding brahmanas; and in another, eating the remnants left by brahmanas. In one palace the Lord was performing noontime rituals; in another, quietly chanting the Gayatri mantra; in another, sleeping on His bed; in another, consulting with His ministers; and in yet another, playing in the water with His female companions. Somewhere the Lord was giving charity to brahmanas, in another place He was joking and laughing with His consort, in yet another place He was meditating on the Supersoul, somewhere He was serving His spiritual masters, in another place He was arranging for the marriages of His sons and daughters, somewhere else He was going out to hunt animals, and elsewhere He was moving about in disguise to find out what the citizens were thinking.

Having seen all this, Narada addressed Lord Krsna: "Only because I have served Your lotus feet can I understand these varieties of Your Yogamaya potency, which ordinary living beings bewildered by illusion cannot begin to perceive. Thus I am most fortunate, and I simply desire to travel all over the three worlds chanting the glories of Your pastimes, which purify all the worlds."

Dear Sir,

While I thank your elaborate reply, as far as I am concerned, discussing about Krishna is not really useful.

Anyhow, still I have some doubts. Why did he marry so many girls and what is the purpose? Per your statement, the incident happened 5000 years ago. Nobody knows the condition of women in those days.

Hailing from Pshatriya clan, how could he chant Gayathri Mantra, which is exclusive to Brahmins? Even Brahmins should chant in a feeble voice.

 

[renuka]

Hailing from Kshatriya clan, how could he chant Gayathri Mantra, which is exclusive to Brahmins? Even Brahmins should chant in a feeble voice.

Dear Chandru,

I think you have missed the fact that the person who encrypted the Gayatri Mantra was not a Brahmin by birth but a Kshatriya by birth..the famous Vishwamitra.

I wonder why you are attaching Caste to Lord Krishna..He is beyond dualities and gunas.

BTW Gayatri Mantra was recited by anyone who had been vested with the sacred thread and in ancient days the Brahmins,Kshatriyas and Vaisyas were reciting the Gayatri.


I used to wonder before Viswamitra encrypted the Gayatri Mantra what were Brahmins reciting for Sandhyavandanam?? Do you know??? Was it the whole form which is in encoded in the 3rd Mandala of the Rig Veda?

So you see thanks to a Kshatriya you got to recite an encrypted version of the Gayatri Mantra..that itself many recite without knowing the meaning..imagine if Vishwamitra did not encrypt it?? Govinda! GOOOOOOvinda!LOL

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Ok, looks like I may find some agreement with you in that Hinduism is not the best organized religion. But the answer is not Christianity, which you seem to have taken up. All religions are the same, man-made theories (and associated social orders) which are imperfect models of the truth.

......

You have jumped to conclusions invariably inappropriate like many others in this forum. the question is not whether hindusim is organized or disorganized. neither is it whether abrahamic model is best suited or worst suited.

the question is 'does religion, organized or disorganized, connect man with God, whatever religion it is?

whatever faith system you profess or practice, if you want the common man to appreciate it, carry it to him such that he could comprehend and understand the basic principles, tenets and whatever the religion aims to convey. this esesntially requires communicating and conveying the message to a common man in a language he would understand.

unless the common man, who is the multitude, accepts it, no system of faith or belief can hope to survive.

 

[renuka]

whatever faith system you profess or practice, if you want the common man to appreciate it, carry it to him such that he could comprehend and understand the basic principles, tenets and whatever the religion aims to convey. this esesntially requires communicating and conveying the message to a common man in a language he would understand.

unless the common man, who is the multitude, accepts it, no system of faith or belief can hope to survive.

Dear Kuvs,

This can never happen cos many like to keep religion a mystery that should not be decoded..cos if there is no mystery than even religion will be past history!LOL


Whatever said and done only Lord Buddha simplified everything for the common man.

As gentle as He was..He was also brave and bold.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

As far as Saivism is concerned, there is no idol worship. The figures, statues, pictures etc. shown or depicted in the Temples may be an extended form of imagination.........

for that matter neither the vedas nor the upanishads,the foundation of hinduism, contain anything to advocate idol worship.

furthermore, saivism is strictly an indigenous tamilian religion founded by the nayanmars. if idol worship is absent in saivism, perhaps it is superior to the aryan religions.

 

[sarang]

"I am appalled, I am appalled!" as Mr. Humphrey of Yes Minister would paraphrase. Only an ex/anti iyengar will link Nammazhwar with Tamil or kasmiri or any other Saivam.

for that matter neither the vedas nor the upanishads,the foundation of hinduism, contain anything to advocate idol worship.

furthermore, saivism is strictly a tamilian religion founded by the nammazhvars. if idol worship is absent in saivism, perhaps it is superior to the aryan religions.

 

[sarang]

Vedanta and essentials of sanatana dharma were propagated in all bharatiya languages, Sanskrit is one of them. Thanks to internet, many almost extinct religious books and manuscripts in all languages are getting revealed, something akin to revelation of scriptures by rishis. All complex concepts, nature and form of Atman, our relationship with god, paths available to merge are all revealed in regional and local literature. All upanyasakars (TV or temple or public halls) do an excellent job of cross referencing with local lore. Sanskrit and local languages are on par in spreading our dharma. All traditional matams and asramams (braminical or not) have done a lot to transmit knowledge in local lingo and supported authors in publishing.
Sanskrit has a special place, it is the responsibility of all to support its healthy propagation.

Ok, let me add one more thing to agree with Ms KV. I think Sanskrit is not the best medium to propagate Hindu texts to the masses because nobody speaks it. Perhaps many forum members will not agree.

It is true that we have to evolve if we have to match Christianity. After all the first gospels were in Greek and Jesus's language was Aramaic. I am sure most printed copies of the Bible are in English.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

.... saivism is strictly a tamilian religion founded by the nammazhvars.

Saivism founded by nammazhvars! http://tinyurl.com/oh5u5d4

 

[Naina_Marbus]

"I am appalled, I am appalled!" as Mr. Humphrey of Yes Minister would paraphrase. Only an ex/anti iyengar will link Nammazhwar with Tamil or kasmiri or any other Saivam.

Only an ex/anti iyengar or a christian masquerading as Hindu?

 

[renuka]

"I am appalled, I am appalled!" as Mr. Humphrey of Yes Minister would paraphrase. Only an ex/anti iyengar will link Nammazhwar with Tamil or kasmiri or any other Saivam.

Dear Sarang ji,


This is nothing at least it still has origins in India...in some other thread another member who is not too fond of Lord Krishna said that Vaishnavaism has origins from Egypt.

I wonder how come that post went unnoticed by Iyengars here in Forum!LOL

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Does anyone know why a journalist from The Hindu, with its secular credentials, was asked to leave Pakistan?
[FONT=&quot]Two Indian journos in Pak get ultimatum to leave by May 20 | The Indian Express[/FONT]

 

[Vaagmi]

for that matter neither the vedas nor the upanishads,the foundation of hinduism, contain anything to advocate idol worship.

Better recheck your source. Vedas speak about idol worship.

furthermore, saivism is strictly a tamilian religion founded by the nammazhvars. if idol worship is absent in saivism, perhaps it is superior to the aryan religions.

Nammazhwar was one of the Vaishnavite saints. He had nothing to do with saivism. Your knowledge source needs a revamp. Or change it.
LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

unless the common man, who is the multitude, accepts it, no system of faith or belief can hope to survive.

Hinduism has survived for hundreds of centuries despite attack by marauding aliens marching through the land with sword in one hand and a scripture in the other hand. It still remains the religion of majority of Indians. So that settles the issue. Hindus never fought crusades to spread their religion, they never had in their scripture a "divine" teaching which said if you finish off a non-believer infidel you are assured of a place in heaven where beautiful nubile women would wait for you as gifts from God. LOL.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Chandruji,

For convenience I have given numbers.

1. which part of Hindu society is really civilized and which part is not civilized? Kallaanaalum kanavan pullaanaalum purushan days are gone. Those who believe in that are not civilized these days. Society has moved so fast that couples meet regularly on week-ends at some really civilized society clubs, where after a few stiff drinks ladies just go and just pick up a car key at random from all the car keys of members deposited in a box to spend the rest of the evening and night with the owner of that car key. If you ask this society which claims to be far civilized, the answer will be "poor Krishna. He did not have cars and clubs in his days".

This story was narrated by a popular Tamil Actress of late 60s and mid 70 in a popular Tamil weekly published in the 1970s. Per that actress, it was called 'key club' and performed somewhere in South Madras.

Since human being is a social animal, we cannot expect 100% purity from them. Tendencies may vary according to situation, lifestyle, environment. Is it wrong if we expect it from an Avatar?

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

"I am appalled, I am appalled!" as Mr. Humphrey of Yes Minister would paraphrase. Only an ex/anti iyengar will link Nammazhwar with Tamil or kasmiri or any other Saivam.

corrections made. thanks for pointing out a typing error.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

...
Hindus never fought crusades to spread their religion,.... .

Crusades are offensive, aggressive expeditions, so what you surely meant was "Hindus never led any crusades to spread their religion"

 

[biswa]

Wow, you dont want people to even agree with you. I think it is best to debate Hinduism in isolation.

For some reason you always bring up Christianity and Bible perhaps to justify the decisions you took in your personal life. Hinduism does not have an evangelical model (or even crusades) like the Abrahmic religions you favor. Nobody, not even Brahmins, have a responsibility to spread
Hinduism.

The point of religious schools/groups should only be self-improvement, not to turn out jihadists and terrorists like the madrassas do. Similarly the first Christian crusade was started by Pope Urban. There is nothing like that in Hindu philosophy. You cannot convert somebody to Hinduism unlike Islam (eating beef and reciting Kalma) or Christianity (drinking wine and taking communion).

You have jumped to conclusions invariably inappropriate like many others in this forum. the question is not whether hindusim is organized or disorganized. neither is it whether abrahamic model is best suited or worst suited.

the question is 'does religion, organized or disorganized, connect man with God, whatever religion it is?

whatever faith system you profess or practice, if you want the common man to appreciate it, carry it to him such that he could comprehend and understand the basic principles, tenets and whatever the religion aims to convey. this esesntially requires communicating and conveying the message to a common man in a language he would understand.

unless the common man, who is the multitude, accepts it, no system of faith or belief can hope to survive.

 

[Vaagmi]

This story was narrated by a popular Tamil Actress of late 60s and mid 70 in a popular Tamil weekly published in the 1970s. Per that actress, it was called 'key club' and performed somewhere in South Madras.

Since human being is a social animal, we cannot expect 100% purity from them. Tendencies may vary according to situation, lifestyle, environment. Is it wrong if we expect it from an Avatar?

I do not know about the actress you are referring to or the key club. I know that there was such a club in existence in Bombay's Pedder Road, near the Malabar Hills.

 

[renuka]

. Nobody, not even Brahmins, have a responsibility to spread
Hinduism.

.

Dear Biswa,

But I have seen ISKCON actively spreading ISKCONism.

They dont mince their words..they directly tell you on your face the you are not praying to the Supreme and praying to a Demi God.

Demi God is their favorite word.

I remember once I was on medical duty at a temple for Panguni Uthiram celebrations at a remote area in Malaysia..It was at a Lord Kartikeya(Muruga) temple.

ISKCONites were outside the temple having a book stall etc and they were actually telling devotees who were going to the temple that "why are you praying to Muruga who is a demi God..you should be praying to Lord Krishna who is the Supreme" and they started actively promoting ISKCONism!LOL

Some of the temple devotees got mad with these monks and asked them how come they are coming to a temple of Lord Kartikeya and speaking ill of Him and asked them why cant they see God as one and the same.

The reason I was on medical standby cos sometime people faint at temples or there might even be fights and injury too..thank God these arguments between the monks and the temple devotees did not escalate into a big time fight.

But whatever said and done the ISKCON monks should have never done that.

They can promote ISKCONism without the need to call other divinities as Demi Gods and not Supreme etc.

ISKCONites have a very closed mindset like most Vaishnavas!

 

[biswa]

Generally any monotheistic outlook (ie my God is better than your God) goes against the grain of Hinduism.

The ISKCONers who are mainly westerners, have adopted Christian evangelism, that's why they will always have cult status.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Dear Sarang ji,


This is nothing at least it still has origins in India...in some other thread another member who is not too fond of Lord Krishna said that Vaishnavaism has origins from Egypt.

I wonder how come that post went unnoticed by Iyengars here in Forum!LOL

Hi Renuka,

The claim "Vaishnavism has origins in Egypt" is more absurd, lacking in sense than the sayings "Jesus came to India and learnt the tantrics from the saints and sages in India", "Jesus died in Kashmir and was buried in Kashmir" etc etc, which were blaboured around some decades ago. Iyengars and iyers alike are aware of this absurdity but are passive as we are with numerous such.

Years ago, in and around the Tambaram area, a book titled 'saivamum vainavamum kristavame' was creating a sensation, until some yeoman met with the author and pointed out blatant errors and blunders in his claims and the book was withdrawn. there are more such titles circulating around, for instance 'tiruvalluvar kristavare tirukkural kristava noole', 'tiruvaasagathil koorappattavar yesuve' etc.

Mudslinging at one another is an old wine, is not uncommon and has been existing for centuries. only that it emerges in new bottles seldom carrying any ethic. that wont cut any ice with anyone.


If the secular fabric of india would tear, proselytization would be a scapegoat.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Generally any monotheistic outlook (ie my God is better than your God) goes against the grain of Hinduism.

The ISKCONers who are mainly westerners, have adopted Christian evangelism, that's why they will always have cult status.

Decades ago, prabhupada dasa, founder of iskcon landed in US shores with just a copy of bagwad gita. he found hippies ubiquitously. he met with them, preached the hare krishna maha mantra to them, advising them that the mantra could deliver them from whatever the cause of them turning hippies. in a few years hippies disappeared. long hairs turned tufts, bearded faces were cleanly shaven, rags turned saffron, the fingers that held drugs were holding beads, the lips that uttered abuses were chanting the mahamantra, the flesh that was stinking of sweat were emanating sandal fragrance, frowns turned smiles. call it cult or whatever, is not 'krishna is the supreme personality of godhead' far better than drowning in depression and drugs. if you cannot appreciate iskcon do not call any evangelization, western or whatsoever, foul.

MAGNANIMITY APPRECIATES ANYTHING THAT WOULD CHANGE A HUMAN BEING TO A BETTER PERSON.

 

[tks]

Christian in Sudan sentenced to death for faith

Christian woman in Sudan sentenced to death for her faith - CNN.com

Indeed we are fortunate to not living in such a country ruled by such a religion.

(CNN) -- Hours after a Sudanese court sentenced his pregnant wife to death when she refused to recant her Christian faith, her husband told CNN he feels helpless.
"I'm so frustrated. I don't know what to do," Daniel Wani told CNN on Thursday. "I'm just praying."
This week a Khartoum court convicted his wife, Meriam Yehya Ibrahim, 27, of apostasy, or the renunciation of faith.
Ibrahim is Christian, her husband said. But the court considers her to be Muslim.
The court also convicted her of adultery and sentenced her to 100 lashes because her marriage to a Christian man is considered void under Sharia law.
The court gave her until Thursday to recant her Christian faith -- something she refused to do, according to her lawyer.
During Thursday's sentencing hearing, a sheikh told the court "how dangerous a crime like this is to Islam and the Islamic community," said attorney Mohamed Jar Elnabi, who's representing Ibrahim.
"I am a Christian," Ibrahim fired back, "and I will remain a Christian."
Her legal team says it plans to appeal the verdict, which drew swift condemnation from human rights organizations around the world.
In the meantime, Ibrahim, who is eight months' pregnant, remains in prison with her 20-month-old son.
"She is very strong and very firm. She is very clear that she is a Christian and that she will get out one day," Elnabi told CNN from Sudan.
Ibrahim was born to a Sudanese Muslim father and an Ethiopian Orthodox mother. Her father left when she was 6 years old, and Ibrahim was raised by her mother as a Christian.
However, because her father was Muslim, the courts considered her to be the same, which would mean her marriage to a non-Muslim man is void.
The case, her lawyer said, started after Ibrahim's brother filed a complaint against her, alleging that she had gone missing for several years and that her family was shocked to find she had married a Christian man.
A family divided
The court's ruling leaves a family divided, with Ibrahim behind bars and her husband struggling to survive, Elnabi said.
Police blocked Wani from entering the courtroom on Thursday, Elnabi said. Lawyers appealed to the judge, but he refused, Elnabi said.
Wani uses a wheelchair and "totally depends on her for all details of his life," Elnabi said.
"He cannot live without her," said the lawyer.
The couple's son is having a difficult time in prison.
"He is very affected from being trapped inside a prison from such a young age," Elnabi said. "He is always getting sick due to lack of hygiene and bugs."
Ibrahim is having a difficult pregnancy, the lawyer said. A request to send her to a private hospital was denied "due to security measures."
There also is the question of the timing of a potential execution.
In past cases involving pregnant or nursing women, the Sudanese government waited until the mother weaned her child before executing any sentence, said Christian Solidarity Worldwidespokeswoman Kiri Kankhwende.
Rights groups, governments ask forcompassion
Amnesty International describes Ibrahim as a prisoner of conscience.
"The fact that a woman could be sentenced to death for her religious choice, and to flogging for being married to a man of an allegedly different religion, is abhorrent and should never be even considered," Manar Idriss, Amnesty International's Sudan researcher, said in a statement.
"'Adultery' and 'apostasy' are acts which should not be considered crimes at all, let alone meet the international standard of 'most serious crimes' in relation to the death penalty. It is a flagrant breach of international human rights law," the researcher said.
Katherine Perks with the African Centre for Justice and Peace Studies said the verdict goes against Sudan's "own Constitution and commitments made under regional and international law."
"Meriam has been convicted solely on account of her religious convictions and personal status," she said.
Foreign embassies in Khartoum are urging the government there to reverse course.
"We call upon the Government of Sudan to respect the right to freedom of religion, including one's right to change one's faith or beliefs, a right which is enshrined in international human rights law as well as in Sudan's own 2005 Interim Constitution," the embassies of the United States, United Kingdom, Canada and Netherlands said in a statement.
"We further urge Sudanese legal authorities to approach Ms. Meriam's case with justice and compassion that is in keeping with the values of the Sudanese people," it read.
'Egregious violations of freedom of religion'
Attempts to contact Sudan's justice minister and foreign affairs minister about the Ibrahim case were unsuccessful.
Sudan is one of the most difficult countries in the world to be a Christian, according to international religious freedom monitors.
Under President Omar al-Bashir, the African nation "continues to engage in systematic, ongoing and egregious violations of freedom of religion or belief," the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom said in its 2014 report.
The country imposes Sharia law on Muslims and non-Muslims alike and punishes acts of "indecency" and "immorality" by floggings and amputations, the commission said.
"Conversion from Islam is a crime punishable by death, suspected converts to Christianity face societal pressures, and government security personnel intimidate and sometimes torture those suspected of conversion," said the commission, whose members are appointed by Congress and the president.
The 8 worst places in the world to be religious
The Sudanese government has arrested Christians for spreading their faith, razed Christian churches and confiscated Christians' property, the commission said.
Since 1999, the U.S. State Department has called Sudan one of the worst offenders of religious rights, counting it among eight "countries of particular concern."
"The government at times enforced laws against blasphemy and defaming Islam," the State Department said in its most recent report on religious freedom, from 2012.
The State Department's other countries of concern, all of which impose strict penalties on Christians or other faiths, are: Myanmar (also known as Burma), China, Eritrea, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan.
Among all religious groups, Christians are the most likely to be persecuted worldwide, according to a 2014 report by the Pew Research Center.
Between June 2006 and December 2012, Christians were harassed by governments in 151 countries, Pew reported. Islam was second, with 135 countries. Together, Christians and Muslims make up half of the world's population, Pew noted.
Lawyer says he's gotten a death threat
Elnabi says he got a death threat a day before the controversial court hearing, with an anonymous caller telling him to pull out of representing Ibrahim or risk attack.
"I feel very scared," he said. "Since yesterday, I live in fear if I just hear a door open or a strange sound in the street."
Still, the lawyer said he'll continue representing Ibrahim.
"I could never leave the case. This is a matter of belief and principles," he said. "I must help someone who is in need, even if it will cost me my life."
Wife: Saudi blogger recommended for apostasy trial
CNN's Daniel Burke, Amara Walker, Jessica King, Dana Ford and Saad Abedine contributed to this report, as did journalist Isma'il Kushkush.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

ISKCONites have a very closed mindset like most Vaishnavas!

Shows how poor your understanding of vaishnavism is. LOL.