Secular India

[renuka]

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No confusion. For iha loka benefits one prays to multitudes of gods approved by tradition and scriptures. For moksha sri!man Narayana. Only one in billion billion works for moksha.

Wow..this is so like Abrahamic religions..where only their way leads to salvation!LOL

But Sanathana Dharma is not like that..it has no hard fast & rules that only one form of Divinty leads to Moksha..after all even Sriman Narayana is manifestation of Brahman.(Iyengarism might differ on this)

In Sanathana Dharma Moksha is sort of individualized and each finds their own way....its like Rajini's Punch Dialogue:

En Vazhi Thani Vazhi.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Saint Thayagaraja shows one of his ways to attain mOkshA in his song:

Pallavi: mOkshamu galadhA bhuvilO jeevan-
muktulu kAni vAraluku

Anupallavi: sAkshAthkAra nee sadh bhakti
sangeetha jnAna viheenulaku

Meaning: O Ever Evident One (as witness of perceptions)! In this World, is emancipation attainable for those

(a) who have not become living-liberated and (b) who are bereft of knowledge of music combined with true

devotion towards you?

For the full song and meaning please click on 'Mokshamu Galadaa'. :ranger:

Wow! Music with true bhakthi is one of the easiest ways to attain mOkshA. eace:

 

[Raji Ram]

Here is the song rendered by the sweet voiced Smt. Sudha Raghunathan:

Sudha Ragunathan - Mellifluous Melodies - Mokshamugalada - Raga Saramati - Tala Adi

 

[renuka]

Meaning: O Ever Evident One (as witness of perceptions)! In this World, is emancipation attainable for those

(a) who have not become living-liberated and (b) who are bereft of knowledge of music combined with true

devotion towards you?


Wow! Music with true bhakthi is one of the easiest ways to attain mOkshA. eace:

Dear RR ji,

What music was Saint Tyags talking about? Worldly musical chords??? or the Pure Heart that Sings Silently in the Raga that only God knows? Bhakti Ka Tarana?

 

[sarang]

For the tone deaf, bhakti and saranagati.

Dear Renu,

Saint Thayagaraja shows one of his ways to attain mOkshA in his song:

Pallavi: mOkshamu galadhA bhuvilO jeevan-
muktulu kAni vAraluku

Anupallavi: sAkshAthkAra nee sadh bhakti
sangeetha jnAna viheenulaku

Meaning: O Ever Evident One (as witness of perceptions)! In this World, is emancipation attainable for those

(a) who have not become living-liberated and (b) who are bereft of knowledge of music combined with true

devotion towards you?

For the full song and meaning please click on 'Mokshamu Galadaa'. :ranger:

Wow! Music with true bhakthi is one of the easiest ways to attain mOkshA. eace:

 

[Raji Ram]

... What music was Saint Tyags talking about? Worldly musical chords??? or the Pure Heart that Sings Silently in the Raga that only God knows? Bhakti Ka Tarana?

Dear Renu,

You have mentioned that there are several ways to attain salvation. Saint Thyagaraja had abundance of knowledge in music

and was a good singer. Hence he has shown his way to the world. Silent rAgA in another way which some others can follow!

 

[Raji Ram]

For the tone deaf, bhakti and saranagati.

Here is the answer for your Q, Renu!

 

[renuka]

Here is the answer for your Q, Renu!

RR ji..so finally Sarang ji and I agree to something cos I wrote Bhakti Ka Tarana and he wrote Bhakti and Saranagati.

But he did not mention Sriman Narayana!LOL

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

You have mentioned that there are several ways to attain salvation. Saint Thyagaraja had abundance of knowledge in music

and was a good singer. Hence he has shown his way to the world. Silent rAgA in another way which some others can follow!

Dear RR ji,

I have a question..I read in Wikepedia that the word Thillana in Carnatic music is actually from the Urdu/Persian word Tarana...is this true?? I have attached the source below:

History

In the words of Thakur Jaidev Singh, an influential commentator on Indian music:

[Tarana] was entirely an invention of Khusrau. Tarana is a Persian word meaning a song. Tillana is a corrupt form of this word. True, Khusrau had before him the example of Nirgit songs using śuṣk-akṣaras (meaningless words) and pāṭ-akṣaras (mnemonic syllables of the mridang).
Such songs were in vogue at least from the time of Bharat. But generally speaking, the Nirgit used hard consonants. Khusrau introduced two innovations in this form of vocal music. Firstly, he introduced mostly Persian words with soft consonants. Secondly, he so arranged these words that they bore some sense. He also introduced a few Hindi words to complete the sense…. It was only Khusrau’s genius that could arrange these words in such a way to yield some meaning. Composers after him could not succeed in doing so, and the tarana became as meaningless as the ancient Nirgit.[SUP][3][/SUP]


​

Derivatives

The thillana from Carnatic music is based on the tarana, according to Balasaraswati,[SUP][4][/SUP] and is widely used in dance performances.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear RR,

It is perfectly okay as you say to depict almighty in many ways and pray to him. But to have several Almighties and pray to them each for a particular benefit (it is a tough bargain), praying to one almighty in the morning, another in the evening etc., or assembling all these almighties together(son, daughter, uncle and aunt almighties!!!) in one place and praying to each of them with a different invocation for different boons is a meaningless exercise-to be polite. Subscribe to one Almighty and be faithful and loyal to him. That appears to be a better position. LOL.

Since your concentration is only on Narayana, henceforth, you will forget Mahalakshmi, Avatar Gods, Anjaneya and his group.

Is the name related to Krishna or Vishnu?.

Since now you switch over to one God only, you indirectly become a pseudo-Saivite (like Smarthas who become pseudo-Vaishnavites), but worshipping Vishnu. Per Saivism, Lord Shiva is the only supreme God and he created earth and other creatures.

I am not sure whether you accept idol worship or not.

All the best for your conversion.

 

[sarang]

Sarva deva namaskarah kesavam pratigachchati.

There is no conflict; in government offices even a peon can get the signature of the minister if he is propitiated. Just an analogy, not proof.

RR ji..so finally Sarang ji and I agree to something cos I wrote Bhakti Ka Tarana and he wrote Bhakti and Saranagati.

But he did not mention Sriman Narayana!LOL

 

[renuka]

Sarva deva namaskarah kesavam pratigachchati.

So it all depends on how we would like to define Keshava.

Taken from Wikipedia:

• one whose Kesa or hair is long, uncut and beautiful
• The lord of creation, preservation, and dissolution.
• one who destroyed the demon Keshi in the Krishna avatar.
• one who is endowed with the rays of light spreading within the orbit of the sun.
• one who is himself the three: kah Brahma; ah Vishnu and Isa Shiva.

 

[Raji Ram]

RR ji..so finally Sarang ji and I agree to something cos I wrote Bhakti Ka Tarana and he wrote Bhakti and Saranagati.

But he did not mention Sriman Narayana!LOL

We all know what Sarang Sir means by 'saranagati'.

Om namO Narayana!! ray:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

The usual form of thillAnA is jathis in Pallavi and Anupallavi. Some lyrics to praise a Lord and some jathis will form the first and

second part of CharaNam. They were composed for the sake of classical dance but later on added to the tail end of Carnatic

concerts also. Violin maestro Lalgudi Jayaraman's thillAnAs are widely used by both dancers and Carnatic singers. We find the

'Lalgudi brand' in each and every line of the thillAnAs. Some are really tough ones and need rigorous practice to perfect!

 

[krish44]

kesavan is to be denoted by K7 ,taken from my notes of my old classmate of the same name and referred to by this alphabet and numeral for brevity by us

 

[krish44]

Dear Renu,

The usual form of thillAnA is jathis in Pallavi and Anupallavi. Some lyrics to praise a Lord and some jathis will form the first and

second part of CharaNam. They were composed for the sake of classical dance but later on added to the tail end of Carnatic

concerts also. Violin maestro Lalgudi Jayaraman's thillAnAs are widely used by both dancers and Carnatic singers. We find the

'Lalgudi brand' in each and every line of the thillAnAs. Some are really tough ones and need rigorous practice to perfect!

do these thillanas need to be performed by all dancing bare foot in chennai sun.. it might be called "çhennai brand""

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

The usual form of thillAnA is jathis in Pallavi and Anupallavi. Some lyrics to praise a Lord and some jathis will form the first and

second part of CharaNam. They were composed for the sake of classical dance but later on added to the tail end of Carnatic

concerts also. Violin maestro Lalgudi Jayaraman's thillAnAs are widely used by both dancers and Carnatic singers. We find the

'Lalgudi brand' in each and every line of the thillAnAs. Some are really tough ones and need rigorous practice to perfect!

Dear RR ji,


What about this Thillana??

thillaanaa thillaanaa thiththiththikkinra thaenaa thikkuth thikku
nenjil thillaanaa
manjak kaattu mainaa enna konjik konjip poanaa thikkuth thikku nenjil
thillaanaa
kannu vechchadhum needhaanaa vedi kanni vechchadhum needhaanaa
kattil poattu naan kappam katta kaaman sonnaanaa
(thillaanaa)

[video=youtube_share;FgZdox90798]http://youtu.be/FgZdox90798[/video]

 

[rishikesan]

Thanks for proper explanation, Dr. Renuka. Let me simplify the word secular. The word is coined to ensure that no One Religion should ever think of dominating the other. Live & let live should the answer. We brahmins are no doubt are Hindus & tamilians, despite the fact that the the Dravidian parties , in order to gain cheap popularity in late 40s , dragged upto end of year 1980s, ridiculed Brahmins , calling them as ARYANS , no place in T.N. They went to the extent of molesting Brahmin women , under the instructions of Veeramani, of D.K. the chip of old block, has the audacity to scold Brahmin widows as MOTTAI PAAPPATTI.
Here I want to stress that I am the witness for all these atrocities , when I was a student in Trichy College. Trichy was their fortress. The tuft & sacred threads were cut openly by them & no one condemned. .One interesting episode :- In a Drama by name KEEMAYANAM , as opposed to Ramayanam used to be staged in Thevar Hall / Trichy, in which Sita would be shown as though she agreed to Ravanan proposal. How any woman could be chaste for 14 long years ,without a male ? To counter this a typical N. B. openly challenged in a meeting held at Srirangam, Saying " Yes I agree about Seetha , But he continued saying to the large crowd : aamammayya, saridaan, Your Leader Peryar is here for last 10 days. his wife Maniyammal is in Erode. How do you expect her to be Chaste ? INcluding me the crowd jeered .,
It is a proven fact that more than majority of Tamil brahmins are honest, law abiding & they have succeeded in neglecting the haters & no one talks of Brahmins. Youngsters are a different LOT One more thing . Brahmins only took the lead on Temple Entry of Dalits even as early as 1930/ 40s Madurai Vaidyanatha Iyer led the croud in Meemakshi Temple & created history in British rule.
Let us not find words to condemn ourselves ofcourse I know in the last 10 years about 10 % of Tamil brahmins love & marry N.Bs becauseb of the simple reason they work together, live in U.S mostly, Internt provides opportunities & mostly Girls as such are not that religious minded but when parents are religious, the Girl would say that the Boy is the Best . , even though she will not be knowing the parents of such Boys. Girls parents without creating Fuss, get her married publicly. realizing the order of the day?
I again stress that only the Caste hindus ( Pillai/ Mudaliar etc ) having unity see to it that the dalits do not raise their heads in those areas they have FULL control.
Rishikesan

 

[renuka]

I again stress that only the Caste hindus ( Pillai/ Mudaliar etc ) having unity see to it that the dalits do not raise their heads in those areas they have FULL control.
Rishikesan

Dear Sir,

In real life I have never met a Mudaliar or a Pillai..have no idea how their mind works.

Anyway I dont condone violence of any form on anyone..be it Dalit or Brahmin cos all are humans and all need to be respected.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

.....
Here I want to stress that I am the witness for all these atrocities , when I was a student .....
I again stress that only the Caste hindus ( Pillai/ Mudaliar etc ) having unity see to it that the dalits do not raise their heads in those areas they have FULL control.
Rishikesan

As an observer to all the atrocities mentioned by you , I can vouch for the accuracy of what you posted.

After dethroning the TBs from dominance, the two castes listed above usurped the dominant status for a couple of decades, displaying a behavior similar to what they accused the Brahmins of. But, retribution has caught up with them, and today, politically, the middle castes and the dalits are pushing them out to the bottom of the caste pile.

 

[Brahmanyan]

The word "secular" is an interloper in the Constitution introduced by Indira Gandhi and her team for Political gains.
The words Secularism or Socialism are not found in the original Constitution passed by the Constitutional Assembly. Neither any definition for the word "secular" given in the Constitution. However,enough safeguards have been provided in the Constitution in this regard under "Fundamental Rights"(Part III). But it is an accepted norm that the Secular Government does not impose or interfere in the Religious activities of an individual. Political parties misuse the word Secular/ism for electoral gains.
Interestingly very few countries have separated "Church and State" and practice Secularism strictly. Even in our Country separate civil laws cover religious communities, "Uniform civil code" is yet to be passed, though it is found in the directive principles of the Constitution(Art 44-Part IV).
It is my view that this is a serious Subject to be discussed, which cannot be done with political compulsions.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[biswa]

To make a start begin reading J. Krishnamurthy's books. read his booklet, "Truth is a Pathless Land". thats just beginning. quit repeating the same error of jumping to conclude that i am a follower of JK. JK is only to begin with.

Is this the same JK who claimed to be a bachelor/philosopher but had a lifelong affair with his friend's wife, causing her to have multiple abortions?
Lives in the Shadow: with J. Krishnamurti: Radha Sloss: 9780595121311: Amazon.com: Books

Yes, clearly I have a lot to learn from him. You have chosen an appropriate guru: do as I say, not as I do.

 

[tks]

Another blog post by Maria Wirth is worth reading in my view ..

Are Hindus dangerous? | MARIA WIRTH

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Mr Naina, You are absolutely right & you have added the required strength to the ground situation prevailed in 40/ 50s When D. K ceased to be relevant, Tamil brahmins were becoming more prominent and the next generation got full opportunities to study Engineering & secured some seats in F.C quota & joined Pvt Engg colleges even paying capitation fees , somehow got Distinctions & made a Bee- line to U.S and as the saying goes , it is now a HISTORY. Our friend , vociferous Dr. Renuka would not be knowing the Dravidian atrocities committed to Tamil brahmins & only those of 70s of Age would have known the plight & subsequent happenings, which has only brought out positive/ definitive transformation which the parents regale to-day & enjoy the International life by vising Western countries in thousands ,even amassing wealth, in legal ways, unlike politicians of to-date ( There are no Tamil Brahmin politition, in this Corruption rife M.Ps/ M.L. A.s) Let us all feel proud & promote unity , reducing the day-to=day criticism between us .
I really appeal to the Senior/ knowledgeable members & also young/ active new members to suggest ways & means to promote less previleged among us.
Sincerely,
Rishikesan

 

[renuka]

Our friend , vociferous Dr. Renuka would not be knowing the Dravidian atrocities committed to Tamil brahmins s.
Sincerely,
Rishikesan

dear Sir,


It's that I do not know but violence in the name of caste is nothing new to India isnt it?

Dalits in my opinion have suffered much more at the hands of the Middle Caste in terms of physical violence.

So compared to what Dalits went thru and are still going tru in India...other caste have not much to complain about cos no one killed other castes like how Dalits were killed.

BTW why live in the past?? Present is what we have.

Just to add..you said there is no corrupt TB politician..what about Jayalalitha? I thought there was a lot of controversy about her being corrupt once upon a time?