Folks,
Post #23 for reference:
I did not want to respond in this thread anymore. But as the downpour of, you know what, is continuing and as my many friends here in this forum are keeping silent without even a murmur of a protest, I thought I will have to continue with my replies.
Even among them I only wish they have a more nuanced understanding of this great social reformer who released the so called Shudras and Panchamas from the yoke of self-imposed inferiority
Shudras may be but certainly not panchamans. Go and ask any panchaman in Tamilnadu and he will say his hero is Ambedkar and certainly not EVR, the shudra chieftain and ikon of Pillais, Naidus and Mudalis.
This betrays a level of unawareness of Tamil culture. Anti-brahmin sentiments are expressed as far back as Manimekalai by Seethalai Sathanar. Before that was the rule of Kalapirars, a time when Brahmins did not have any influence to bother about, much like the present time.
Please give here what Cheeththalai Chathanar said against brahmins. Kalappiras destroyed everything that was tamil (this includes the culture and heritage of tamils). By deduction it gives us the truth that Brahmins were harassed by kalappiras for the good they did to the tamil society. Please prove the contrary here if you can.
we have the followers of Tamil Saiva Sddhanta, a whole host of them virulently anti-brahmin. Among them were Marai Malai Adigal, V. Kanagasapabathy Pillai, K.N. Sivaraja Pillai, P. Sundaram Pillai, and many others. All of these people were as much against Brahminism and the Brahmins for whom their ism is sacrosanct, as EVR was.
The followers of Saiva Sidhdhanta(SS) had a different axe to grind and it has nothing to do with the brahmins for their being brahmins or the mysterious, nebulous and slippery “brahminism” of yours. SS does not recognize part of the vedas and in its place recognise only their own old religious texts. It is all about the interpretation of the ultimate truth-the way it is done in vedas is not acceptable to SSidhanties. But the Pillais and Mudaliyars of the period you are quoting converted these differences in perception about the ultimate reality into casteist struggle. Don’t you notice that all of them were either pillais or mudaliyars only. And now please answer my these two questions connected with your contention here: 1) Even in the current decade these same pillais are in the forefront in preserving their caste purity by building walls around their residential area to prevent panchamans from polluting them. This happened in Uthappuram in Tanjore District of Tamilnadu. So SS following pillais hatred for brahmins had nothing to do with their concern for human rights or the so called self respect of the down trodden sections of the society. 2) There are at least three or four Saiva matoms like Thiruppananthaal matom, Thiru aavaduthurai Adheenam, Madurai adheenam, Dharmapuram Adheenam etc with considerable following among the pillais and mudaliyars who call themselves shudras (pretences of victim hood?). What did they do and what are they doing to promote the welfare of panchamans and their human rights vis a vis the shudras? These matoms own large properties including high yielding plantations on the western ghats and prime properties in the cities of Tamilnadu. Are you aware that the matathipathi of these matoms have to be invariably from the saivapillai caste? I have not come across any thing said anywhere by the marai malai, kanagasabapathi, sivaraja, sundaram etc. pillais against the practice of untouchability by Shudras practised against the panchamans. If you have this data please let us know here. This gives us the conclusion that these pillais and Mudaliyars(like Bharathidasan) were very ballistic against brahmins while they were completely silent (conspiratorial) when it came to talking about the untouchability and atrocities practised by shudras against panchamans in the villages of Tamilnadu. This naturally leads to the final conclusion that I have been driving at, that the casteism is an evil of Hindu society, in the birth and practice of which the entire hindu society had the responsibility and not selectively brahmins alone.
Let me cite a small comment made by one these Saiva Siddantha followers about EVR:
"I participate in both Saiva Siddhata meetings abd Self-respect meetings. .... I have my ideological disagreements with Periyar, ... Periyar was born to oppose the selfish gang which has enslaved Tamil language and the Tamil people. If Periyar had not come on the scene, we'd have been the most derogatory state, calling ourselves "shudras" without any shame. -- A Varadananjayya Pillai (1949)
Source: Dravidian Movement and Saivites, A.R. Venkatachalapathy, Economic and Political Weekly, April 1995.
Your point is not acceptable for these reasons: 1) You are not quoting anything from unassailable source. It is after all from a person whose writings were known for their partisan content. 2) “Selfish gang that enslaved Tamil language and Tamil people” can not include people like Dr. U.V. Swaminathan or the innumerable poets who have done yeomen service to the language. This will be acceptable to you if you are not sold on any ism. Carefully note the words “shudras”. There is no scope to conclude that brahmins and shudras only form the Tamil population.
EVR was not one to invent anti-Brahminism, he just gave voice to the latent feelings among the masses for a long period of time.
I am only saying that these masses in his scheme of things did not include panchamans-the dalits of today. Please let me know where he has spoken about the atrocities committed on the panchamans who worked as landless labourers in the fields of the so called “shudras” (the post will become lengthy if I start quoting what EVR wrote in his mouth-piece about the Kilvenmony incident). They were the people who bore the brunt of casteist atrocities. You may dismiss as “pretences to victimhood” (these are your words quoted from elsewhere) if I list them here because in your world panchamans and their sufferings at the hands of shudras do not exist at all.
I agree, the Tamil people are decent folks. They accepted the Brahmins as one among them only to be trodden upon as "Shudras" by them.
The trodding upon was not done as much by brahmins as by the land-owning middle castes and it is the panchamans who were trodded upon. Even today this is the situation. Please read the thread in this forum “Cry The Beloved Country-March 2012” to understand what trodding upon means and then reply if you want. Or is it your case that panchamans who form 20% of Tamil population are not tamils at all?
The oppressors don't have the right to approve who is acceptable and who is not.
Who is oppressed and who is the oppressor needs to be determined first. Please do that and then continue with your arguments.
all I can do is to request you not to reject EVR outright because of his virulent anti-Brahmin stand. Take a look at his motivations, what he did, what he achieved, and what he represents to most of the Tamil people
Hitler too had his motivations. His Mein Kompf can not be faulted for its content if you go into his motivations to write it. His complaints against Jews and the venom he spat against them resonated with what was a small grievance in the minds of a section of young germans of that time. So we have to show understanding towards Hitler and not reject him outright?
The rest is up to history. BTW, contrary to what you predict, EVR will be remembered as a shining light of modernity and rationalism after many of the acharayas, rishis, maharishis, and godmen/godwomen are long forgotten.
Yes, well said. The dung heap of history also is part of history and we know where we have Hitler today despite similar fond sentiments expressed by Goerings and Goebbels of that time.
Cheers.
just kidding,........
