Self respect movement

[sarma-61]

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Dear Sarmaji,

I really wonder what is your problem in life?

This is the 2nd time I am seeing you are commenting as you like on what I write that too to a 3rd party.

What yaar??Why dont you adopt a Neeruku Ner attitude and deal with me directly?
Any problem? You are afraid or what?

I feel like laughing when I see all indirect dealings here.
Be Brave to face onslaught directly.

Smt. Renukaji,

I doubt whether you have seen my posting #30 above; what more "nErukku nEr" can be there?

Do you, as a medical doctor, believe that any indirect reference to what you write has necessarily to be due to some "problem in life" of the writer? If that be true, just think of the situation of Vyasa who has used the "uvAca" form and made indirect references all through the massive corpus of Hindu scriptures !! (I hope you are aware of the real reason for this.)

As regards your <EDTD - KRS> onslaughts and <Edtd - KRS> video clips to decorate your revelations, I usually try to adhere to the advice (Biblical in origin, I suppose) that "One who knows not and knows not that he knows not - avoid him!"

 

[sarma-61]

Mr. Sharma you may be well read person, but you are embodiment of the person (smug attitude) you yourself despise. You criticize Saraju, Renuka, and others who are well liked and write thoughtful pieces. Instead of attacking people, you can present your views. I for one do read your post and like some of the points you make.

Shri prasad sir,

Thank you for your nice words about me.

As you know, I am only an occasional visitor to this forum. Only during the last couple of days I have written in this thread. My opinion is that we do not devote time and energy to discussions about EVR. In that way I do not agree with some of the opinions expressed here. But you seem to immediately equate opinion to personal criticism. In that sense, I am perhaps within my rights to say that you are now criticizing me and not presenting your views.

That is why I wrote elsewhere that this forum is ideal for a MAS.

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renukaji,

I doubt whether you have seen my posting #30 above; what more "nErukku nEr" can be there?

Do you, as a medical doctor, believe that any indirect reference to what you write has necessarily to be due to some "problem in life" of the writer? If that be true, just think of the situation of Vyasa who has used the "uvAca" form and made indirect references all through the massive corpus of Hindu scriptures !! (I hope you are aware of the real reason for this.)

As regards your <EDTD - KRS> onslaughts and <Edtd - KRS> video clips to decorate your revelations, I usually try to adhere to the advice (Biblical in origin, I suppose) that "One who knows not and knows not that he knows not - avoid him!"

God knows what you wrote cos all I got to see is the edited version.
Anyway its not big deal for me.You claim to be "orthodox" so I guess your carbon dated thinking might differ from mine.
On those grounds I let you "escape" this time.Till then Adios Amigo (but still watching!!LOL)Your writing style reminds me of someone..never mind.

BTW SarmaJi you wrote this:

I usually try to adhere to the advice (Biblical in origin, I suppose) that "One who knows not and knows not that he knows not - avoid him!"

Thanks for telling me to AVOID you!!!:rockon:

 

[Nara]

Folks, I am not trying to convince anybody here to change their opinion of EVR. I am under no delusion that I have the capacity to mitigate the hate Brahmins have towards him. In many ways this hatred is understandable, even if, IMO, not justified.

But, I don't appreciate the way it is being expressed here, it reminds me of the red stain left all along the stairwell of public buildings by otherwise nice and loving people of our community who happen to have the habit of chewing a little betel-leaves, both B and NB alike.

There are two such splattering that are particularly odious, IMO. They are, (i) equating EVR and his Self-Respect movement to Hitler and his Nazisim -- it is insulting to the millions of Jews, Gypsies, and other "deviants", who perished under the nightmare of Naziism, and (ii) citing oppression of Dalits by caste Hindus, which itself is a byproduct of Brahminism, to muddy the water and divert attention away from EVR's contributions to the Tamil society, both B and NB.

There are some Dalit voices that do take EVR to task for not taking up the plight of Dalits more seriously. Their objection is not with EVR's stand on many social issues, only that, in their perception, EVR did not care enough about Dalits. They probably have a point. However, theirs is not an unanimous view among all Dalits. Dalit Murasu takes a different view. These are Dalits who want to find common ground with all the progressive voices in their fight against Brahminism/casteism. Mr. Punitha Pandian, Editor of Dalit Murasu and Secretary of Dr. Ambedkar Centre, argues, with regard to the view of the Dravidan movement of EVR from his other Dalit colleagues:

"They appear both unable to render that legacy critical and meaningful, as well as to reject it in strident terms. Much of this criticism remains cynical and unproductive..."


​

He further elaborates the role of Dalit Murasu:

"[Dalit Murasu] retained its sense of what dalits required to do: fight caste violence on the one hand, and build an expansive anti-caste historic bloc on the other. Even when a section of dalit intellectuals appeared to denigrate and cast aspersions on the possibilities of such a bloc emerging in Tamil Nadu, the magazine's editors stayed calm and reasonable and continued to affirm the importance of both Ambedkar and Periyar. Since its earliest days, Dalit Murasu has remained consistent in its fundamental opposition to both Hindutva and brahminical Hinduism and to a globalization process that only further perpetrates the varna order."


​

This is an argument between different Dalit factions, and I am sure they/we will workout it out. The role of other fair-minded progressives is to support them all, and try to be helpful and not a hindrance. The duty of the progressives is to stand with what is rational. To fish in their troubled waters to promote a partisan casteist agenda is, IMO, repugnant.

Cheers!

p.s. I am not supporting Dalit Murasu per se, I get a feeling they are a Christian group, and you all know what my views are about religion, particularly Christianity and Islam. But, I can't hold their religion against them when I agree with them on a specific contentious issue.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

May be, I don't have AS much 'knowledge' as you have in Tamil culture (you having been involved with Sangam period culture), I can read and think. So, my brother, please do not be dismissive! It is in my opinion not a very valid approach to cite the writings of Buddhists, Jains or even Shaivites to prove that there were 'anti brahmin' sentiments in TN in the past. These are all inter religious and inter denominational competition and as the Brahmins symbolized the Hindu philosophy and thoughts they were attacked whenever someone wanted to destroy Hinduism. Same way EVR did. Since you won't accept any source other than some sources you define as 'neutral' so vigorously in this Forum, I am frankly very disappointed. I even allow all the 'unsubstantiated' quotes made by the people who you admire, like Dawkins, which are mainly polemics based on their pov.

As I have said repeatedly, there was no claims for any 'social justice' by any castes and the Dalits till the time when new thinking based on 'human equality' concepts that came in to the mainstream in the last century. Even the onslaught of Islam could only put a dent on Hinduism in India. Only the British's deliberate policies of divide and rule in India and the modernization and urbanization of India, coupled with the Brahmins abandoning their traditions by getting secular jobs created any conflict. Even then, in TN, a person like EVR exploited this to effectively portray the Brahmins as 'Aryans' and divided the community on the basis of imagined ethnic origins and language.

Show me one person in the history on this earth who was successful by trying to destroy an entire community to advance another community? I can show you plenty of examples of the opposite view of inclusiveness and changing a community from within through love for all and enlightened leadership.

This is why I will never accept this person as anything else but evil. When one can plainly see a drop of poison within a glass of milk, how can one ever think that they can drink the milk alone around the poison and be safe?

I plainly fail to understand your defense and admiration for this hateful person. His intention was to destroy something he did not like and rebuild something else. Such folks are themselves following some misplaced ideology and the result is that common folks suffer. In your mind, I guess you can justify such sufferings as something 'deserving' based on some assumed past intentions of their forefathers.

This is the main reason that I will never admire some of the people you admire. And actually, to tell you the truth, I don't understand why you would present EVR's views here when you perfectly know you are not going to change anyone's mind? Especially when this person advocated the eradication of Brahmins as as group from the face of this earth, by inciting both his followers as well as the Brahmins to fight? Thinking about this, I am at a loss for words.

Regards,
KRS

Dear brother KRS,

As I stated at the very beginning, I am under no illusion of changing anybody's mind. All I hope is that there may be some who are willing to see past the only thing brahmins see in EVR, namely, brahmin hatred. Even among them I only wish they have a more nuanced understanding of this great social reformer who released the so called Shudras and Panchamas from the yoke of self-imposed inferiority.

Fair enough, often perception is reality. This possible attribution is believed to be true by not only Brahmins but NBs as well. You are correct if you say my point is a technical one, but it being a technical point does not take away the significance of my objection.

This betrays a level of unawareness of Tamil culture. Anti-brahmin sentiments are expressed as far back as Manimekalai by Seethalai Sathanar. Before that was the rule of Kalapirars, a time when Brahmins did not have any influence to bother about, much like the present time.

Then we have Kapilar Agaval from 16th century CE in which the author excoriated the Brahmin ideology of birth based supremacy. In more recent times we have the followers of Tamil Saiva Sddhanta, a whole host of them virulently anti-brahmin. Among them were Marai Malai Adigal, V. Kanagasapabathy Pillai, K.N. Sivaraja Pillai, P. Sundaram Pillai, and many others. All of these people were as much against Brahminism and the Brahmins for whom their ism is sacrosanct, as EVR was. The only differences were (a) EVR was an atheist and (b) EVR connected with the common people and was much beloved.

Let me cite a small comment made by one these Saiva Siddantha followers about EVR:

"I participate in both Saiva Siddhata meetings abd Self-respect meetings. .... I have my ideological disagreements with Periyar, ... Periyar was born to oppose the selfish gang which has enslaved Tamil language and the Tamil people. If Periyar had not come on the scene, we'd have been the most derogatory state, calling ourselves "shudras" without any shame. -- A Varadananjayya Pillai (1949)
Source: Dravidian Movement and Saivites, A.R. Venkatachalapathy, Economic and Political Weekly, April 1995.


​

EVR was not one to invent anti-Brahminism, he just gave voice to the latent feelings among the masses for a long period of time. I agree, the Tamil people are decent folks. They accepted the Brahmins as one among them only to be trodden upon as "Shudras" by them.

One more important point to note is the aparent tranquility one may observe on the surface. For instance, during the time of slavery, a treveller from outside U.S. would have found the southern states of the U.S. to be peaceful and the slaves to be generally well fed and happy. The violence of the system, both physical and mental, would not be out in the open for anyone to observe, even to the average white folks living in close proximity who were in all probabality decent and humane people. But, all this cannot be cited againt those who rose up against the system. All revolutuionaries are not going to be MLKs, there will be some who are more like Malocom X. The oppressors don't have the right to approve who is acceptable and who is not.


How I wish you did not bring your wife into this. BTW, the Jews have what is called Reform Juadaism, is there an equivalent among the Brahmins who wish to practice Brahminism? Why not? Please note, it was not only EVR who considered Rajaji his friend, but Rajaji thought of EVR as his life-long friend. The difference is between somebody telling your wife she was not like other jews and your wife telling others that this guy is not anti-jewish, hope you see the difference. (A million sincere pardons to make a comment based on your dear parted wife.)

Anyway, dear brother KRS, all I can do is to request you not to reject EVR outright because of his virulent anti-Brahmin stand. Take a look at his motivations, what he did, what he achieved, and what he represents to most of the Tamil people. The rest is up to history. BTW, contrary to what you predict, EVR will be remembered as a shining light of modernity and rationalism after many of the acharayas, rishis, maharishis, and godmen/godwomen are long forgotten.

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

and




. If anyone of you take the trouble of reading some of the Puranas, it will become evident that gifts to Brahmanas is the only thing emphasized.

I am very reluctantly forced to write these lines because I do not want to be untrue to my conscience.

Namaste Sri Sarma-61,

I take it that you have taken the trouble of reading some of the Puranas, and that too critically. I have a few questions for you:

1. Was Kuchela (of Srimad Bhagwatham) a BrahmaNa? If so why was ne never ever donated with any cows by any of the tri-varNas? Why did not Krishna enforce such an edict?

2. If we take only the 18 or so mahA-purANas, do you know how many cows/bulls would have been donated away to the BrahmaNas? Assuming that only 50% of the live stock or specifically cows/bulls survived their normal life span, do you have any idea how many numbers would have been with the BrahmaNas? And what is the land area that would have been required by the BrahmaNas as grazing field for the said cows and bulls etc.

3. While there are reports of land being taken away from BrahmaNas after independence etc. no such report of milch animals taken away is reported.

So, Sri Sarma-61 where did all the cattle belongingto BrahmaNas go?

So why use provocative language like "if any of you take the trouble of reading some of the puraNas etc."?

We can discuss about other dAnams after you have filled us in with the data in respect of one dAnam, viz. cows.

 

[Nara]

... It is in my opinion not a very valid approach to cite the writings of Buddhists, Jains or even Shaivites to prove that there were 'anti brahmin' sentiments in TN in the past.

Okay, if you say so my dear brother, you are afterall my older brother

I plainly fail to understand your defense and admiration for this hateful person. His intention was to destroy something he did not like and rebuild something else.

It is your opinion that he was a hateful person, I don't see him that way, I see him as one who loved humanity irrespective of station or birth.

And, by definition, revoltionaries are those who want to destroy the old order and usher in a new one. Some did it using violence, viz. France, Russia, Iran, and some tried to do this in a nonviolent way, the Dravidian movement headed by EVR.

BTW, his contemporary Justice party stalwarts, who were dried in the wool theists, were equally, if not more, virulently anti-Brahmin for reasons such as the Brahmins are Aryans, they are not true Tamils, they imposed their language and religion upon Dravidian religion, etc., etc. I invite you to read up on them starting with Maraimalai Adigal and going both forward and backward from his time.

I don't understand why you would present EVR's views here when you perfectly know you are not going to change anyone's mind?

Because I believe in what I say and you believe in freedom of speech

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Renuka,

You said this:

Your writing style reminds me of someone..never mind.

And I left it unsaid.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Nara,

Your post #54:

You said this:

But, I don't appreciate the way it is being expressed here, it reminds me of the red stain left all along the stairwell of public buildings by otherwise nice and loving people of our community who happen to have the habit of chewing a little betel-leaves, both B and NB alike.

That was hitting below the belt. I am not going to complain any more. So take it straight:

The storm that you have let loose on the unsuspecting members of this forum is nothing but S*** storm. You don't deserve a reply from respectable folks any more. Thanks.

 

[KRS]

Folks (and especially brother Nara Ji).

Here is a great person worthy of our admiration, who has gone through incredible personal hardships to help her people. She was educated in India and is influenced very much by Gandhian philosophy. Never advocated violence against her opponents. I pray that she is successful in freeing her people from tyranny.

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&...f.,cf.osb&fp=32706d09a249e348&biw=533&bih=270

Regards,
KRS

 

[renuka]

Daanam or gifting has been extolled in our Puranas but invariably the daanam brings merit only when given to a "Brahmana"; the status of a dAnam to a SUdra or Pancama is not clear. Similarly, paeans have been paid about certain welfare activities like digging temple ponds, wells for use of brahmins, Choultries (again, only for the dwijas or the three higher castes - there is no mention about choultries for SUdras and Pancamas, probably because these groups were strictly forbidden from coming anywhere near a high caste person or their temples) and so on. If anyone of you take the trouble of reading some of the Puranas, it will become evident that gifts to Brahmanas is the only thing emphasized.

Dear SarmaJi,

I did take some trouble and went through the Mahabharat Vanaparva,Ajagaraparva.

There Yudhisthira is questioned by the serpent who is constricting Bhima.

The question from the serpent is: Brahmano Naama Kah?(Define a Brahmin)

Yudhisthira answers: Hey Sarparaaja! (Hey Serpent King)

Satyam,Daanam,Sahanaa,Sheelam,Ahimsa,Tapa,Dayaa ete gunaah yatra vartante sah eva Brahmana.
(Who who has the qualities of Truthfulness, Preforming Charity,Forbearance,Character,Non Violent,Austerity,Compassion he is verily a Brahmana)

So who were the Brahmanas giving gifts too?

 

[zebra16]

Dear SarmaJi,

I did take some trouble and went through the Mahabharat Vanaparva,Ajagaraparva.

There Yudhisthira is questioned by the serpent who is constricting Bhima.

The question from the serpent is: Brahmano Naama Kah?(Define a Brahmin)

Yudhisthira answers: Hey Sarparaaja! (Hey Serpent King)

Satyam,Daanam,Sahanaa,Sheelam,Ahimsa,Tapa,Dayaa ete gunaah yatra vartante sah eva Brahmana.
(Who who has the qualities of Truthfulness, Preforming Charity,Forbearance,Character,Non Violent,Austerity,Compassion he is verily a Brahmana)

So who were the Brahmanas giving gifts too?

Dear Renuka,

Though I understand the purport of your quoting the serpent prashna to Yudhistra, I expect you will get the stock answer, viz. "BrahmaNas donated to each other" without any further quotation.

That is why for the second time in this forum I have asked the puraNa quoters to answer the question "Where did all the cows go" of the brahmins (treating all the brahmins as a single recipient community and asked how come Kuchela and Dronacharya (father of Ashwattama) were bereft of the cows, even during Krishna's period. I am still awaiting answers

 

[suraju06]

Zebra,

That is why for the second time in this forum I have asked the puraNa quoters to answer the question "Where did all the cows go" of the brahmins (treating all the brahmins as a single recipient community and asked how come Kuchela and Dronacharya (father of Ashwattama) were bereft of the cows, even during Krishna's period. I am still awaiting answers

Your question is loud and clear. But there is no answer in their Bibles. So they are consulting each other. You will soon get the reply that "all the cows were eventually eaten by the brahmins". That will be the culmination of you know what.

 

[renuka]

Zebra,



Your question is loud and clear. But there is no answer in their Bibles. So they are consulting each other. You will soon get the reply that "all the cows were eventually eaten by the brahmins". That will be the culmination of you know what.

Or we can go on debating till the Cows Come Home!!

 

[sarma-61]

Dear SarmaJi,

I did take some trouble and went through the Mahabharat Vanaparva,Ajagaraparva.

There Yudhisthira is questioned by the serpent who is constricting Bhima.

The question from the serpent is: Brahmano Naama Kah?(Define a Brahmin)

Yudhisthira answers: Hey Sarparaaja! (Hey Serpent King)

Satyam,Daanam,Sahanaa,Sheelam,Ahimsa,Tapa,Dayaa ete gunaah yatra vartante sah eva Brahmana.
(Who who has the qualities of Truthfulness, Preforming Charity,Forbearance,Character,Non Violent,Austerity,Compassion he is verily a Brahmana)

So who were the Brahmanas giving gifts too?

Smt. Renukaji,

Your response is like the Malayalam saying "ari etra? payar aññāḻi (அரி ஏத்ர? பயர் அஞ்ஞாழி)", meaning, answering away from the point.

What I said was the emphasis in the puranas on gifts to Brahmanas; there was no reference to brahmins giving daanams. But even these daanams will bring merit only when given to brahmana and brahmana is defined not by the serpent of Mahabharat but by the Dharma Sastras. The serpent has only further clarified which all gunas make a complete Brahmana.

 

[Nara]

Here is a great person worthy of our admiration, who has gone through incredible personal hardships to help her people. She was educated in India and is influenced very much by Gandhian philosophy. Never advocated violence against her opponents.

Dear brother KRS, I don't know much about Aung San Suu Kyi beyond the fact she has suffered at the hands of the military leaders of Burma. I also wish her and the people of Burma a bright future, one in which they cast away the chains put on them by their military and build a prosperous, peaceful, and just nation, free of exploitation.

There are a lot of people worthy of our admiration, some public, many the general public never come to know. They don't all fit one mold, even the much exalted Gandhian philosophy mold. In our own struggle for independence from British rule there were leaders who not only advocated violence, but took up arms against the British, like Netaji, Bhagat Singh and Vanchinathan. They were treated as terrorists and common criminals by the establishment of the day. We now celebrate their courage and look upon them as heroes.

If you look at the history of slavery in the U.S. you would find several armed insurrections by the slaves in which many whites, including women and children, were ruthlessly killed, before they were put down with even more ruthlessness and vengeance. Today, most Americans, sadly not all, look upon the leaders of those insurrections as fearless heroes. I hope you get the point.

Here we must note, for all the finger pointing that EVR advocated violence against Brahmins, not a single act of serious violence, namely loss of limb, life, or property, resulted from his speeches or writings. He himself explicitely wrote abhoring violence to achieve his objectives. His rhetoric was meant only to have shock value, it was understood that way at that time, and it is interpreted that way by academics and social scientists. If Brahmins can't see past this rhetoric, then they will always be blind to what a towering iconoclast he was.

Changing gear a little bit, what I am presenting here are actual written or spoken words of EVR, and excerpts from peer reviewed articles from academic journals. In response lot of people have expressed their opinions based on their personal experience in college hostel etc. This is fine, I have no problem. But there are a few who go over the line repeatedly with outlandish language and comparisons.

Dear brother, how would you feel if somebody uses similar language against Sankarachariyar, Sai Baba, or some prominent religious figures? They may be able to cite many personal experiences also. If this happens these pages will bleed with the red ink of the moderator. But, any epithet against EVR is alright. Let it be, I have no problem, if this allows the agitated minds to unburden, then I suppose there was some good.

Whatever may be one's personal opinion of EVR, he is a much respected and beloved leader of the Tamil people. He deserves the level of courtesy as any other public figure you guys admire. To show this respect or not is, of course, your own individual decision, it does not matter to me. (By "you" I don't mean any particular individual, it is generic you.)

Cheers!

 

[vgane]

Dear brother KRS, I don't know much about Aung San Suu Kyi beyond the fact she has suffered at the hands of the military leaders of Burma. I also wish her and the people of Burma a bright future, one in which they cast away the chains put on them by their military and build a prosperous, peaceful, and just nation, free of exploitation.

There are a lot of people worthy of our admiration, some public, many the general public never come to know. They don't all fit one mold, even the much exalted Gandhian philosophy mold. In our own struggle for independence from British rule there were leaders who not only advocated violence, but took up arms against the British, like Netaji, Bhagat Singh and Vanchinathan. They were treated as terrorists and common criminals by the establishment of the day. We now celebrate their courage and look upon them as heroes.

If you look at the history of slavery in the U.S. you would find several armed insurrections by the slaves in which many whites, including women and children, were ruthlessly killed, before they were put down with even more ruthlessness and vengeance. Today, most Americans, sadly not all, look upon the leaders of those insurrections as fearless heroes. I hope you get the point.

Here we must note, for all the finger pointing that EVR advocated violence against Brahmins, not a single act of serious violence, namely loss of limb, life, or property, resulted from his speeches or writings. He himself explicitely wrote abhoring violence to achieve his objectives. His rhetoric was meant only to have shock value, it was understood that way at that time, and it is interpreted that way by academics and social scientists. If Brahmins can't see past this rhetoric, then they will always be blind to what a towering iconoclastic he was.

Changing gear a little bit, what I am presenting here are actual written or spoken words of EVR, and excerpts from peer reviewed articles from academic journals. In response lot of people have expressed their opinions based on their personal experience in college hostel etc. This is fine, I have no problem. But there are a few who go over the line repeatedly with outlandish language and comparisons.

Dear brother, how would you feel if somebody uses similar language against Sankarachariyar, Sai Baba, or some prominent religious figures? They may be able to cite many personal experiences also. If this happens these pages will bleed with the red ink of the moderator. But, any epithet against EVR is alright. Let it be, I have no problem, if this allows the agitated minds to unburden, then I suppose there was some good.

Whatever may be one's personal opinion of EVR, he is a much respected and beloved leader of the Tamil people. He deserves the level of courtesy as any other public figure you guys admire. To show this respect or not is, of course, your own individual decision, it does not matter to me. (By "you" I don't mean any particular individual, it is generic you.)

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

The Justice party was a stooge of the British...So too was EVR...He used the tool of anti brahminism to further his clout......He has belittled Tamil Hindu culture,the Gods & Goddesses..This weakened the Tamil mindset..Look at Jyotiba Phule & Ambedkar of Maharashtra , Sri Narayana Guru of Kerala who fought for the lower castes...They have achieved much more than what EVR could achieve...

Further I would like you to ponder on the following..While studing whether caste system was rigid noted that the lower castes can elevate their status by emulating the upper castes:
1. Manu eldest son [Priyavrata] became king, a Kshatriya. Out of his ten sons, seven became kings while three became Brahman. Their names were Mahavira, Kavi and Savana. (Ref bhagwat puran chap.5)
2. Kavash Ailush was born to a Sudra and attained the varna of a Rishi. He became mantra-drashta to numerous Vedic mantras in Rig-Veda 10th Mandal.

3. Matanga became a Rishi after his birth in low Varna.

I think instead of devoting reams of paper ( Mega bytes of space--LOL) on eulogising EVR let us debate how to erase the indelible marks that he had left on Tamil society.

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Nara,

The Justice party was a stooge of the British...So too was EVR...He used the tool of anti brahminism to further his clout......He has belittled Tamil Hindu culture,the Gods & Goddesses..This weakened the Tamil mindset..Look at Jyotiba Phule & Ambedkar of Maharashtra , Sri Narayana Guru of Kerala who fought for the lower castes...They have achieved much more than what EVR could achieve...

Further I would like you to ponder on the following..While studing whether caste system was rigid noted that the lower castes can elevate their status by emulating the upper castes:
1. Manu eldest son [Priyavrata] became king, a Kshatriya. Out of his ten sons, seven became kings while three became Brahman. Their names were Mahavira, Kavi and Savana. (Ref bhagwat puran chap.5)
2. Kavash Ailush was born to a Sudra and attained the varna of a Rishi. He became mantra-drashta to numerous Vedic mantras in Rig-Veda 10th Mandal.

3. Matanga became a Rishi after his birth in low Varna.

I think instead of devoting reams of paper ( Mega bytes of space--LOL) on eulogising EVR let us debate how to erase the indelible marks that he had left on Tamil society.

Shri vgane sir,

If you read the history of Indian National Congress of Madras Presidency you will find that EVR was the right-hand man of Rajaji upto a point of time. Thereafter he left congress and joined the Justice Party. The British as shrewd rulers pitted the JP against INC, so to say because both the parties were after cornering reservation in govt employment. hence, if JP had refused to become the stooge, INC and thereby the predominantly brahmin representation in its top echelons would definitely have become the stooges.

I am also not convinced that EVR belittled Tamil Hindu culture. In fact I do not think there ever was anything like Tamil Hindu culture; of course, we had tamil culture and hindu culture.

Your last sentence viz., "let us debate how to erase the indelible marks that he had left on Tamil society" is a complete sell-out to Shri Nara, just reread that sentence.

If EVR left indelible marks on Tamil society then it is impossible to erase them; if it is possible to erase them those were not indelible. I for one believe that EVR's marks have practically disappeared but the Tamil society has undergone great changes due to very many other causes; in all these metamorphosis the Tamil Brahmin community has got severely sidelined. It is for us and our succeeding generations to reinstal the TBs in all their past glory into the Tamil society in future. Let us discuss this.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said above in post # 66 above:

Dear brother, how would you feel if somebody uses similar language against Sankarachariyar, Sai Baba, or some prominent religious figures? They may be able to cite many personal experiences also. If this happens these pages will bleed with the red ink of the moderator. But, any epithet against EVR is alright. Let it be, I have no problem, if this allows the agitated minds to unburden, then I suppose there was some good.

Whatever may be one's personal opinion of EVR, he is a much respected and beloved leader of the Tamil people. He deserves the level of courtesy as any other public figure you guys admire. To show this respect or not is, of course, your own individual decision, it does not matter to me. (By "you" I don't mean any particular individual, it is generic you.)

It is very strange in the above post, you defend all the folks who used force and violence and yet you say EVR never used violence. Are you covering both sides, just in case?

By the way, long ago I had decided that I would not support nor admire any person who promote the ideas of violence, hate, division, spewing venom, and ridicule on anyone in this world to achieve their ends, however justified their causes may be. This is why I dismiss the folks like Dawkins to Malcolm X and EVR to Vanchinathan. It is one thing to fight an army - another to kill the bystanders.

Brother you know the difference between EVR and the Hindu Gurus. Gurus do not preach violence against others; Gurus do not hurt the sentiments of all theists by belittling other Gods. So, in my humble opinion, it is ludicrous to compare a man of hate to them.

EVR can best be described charitably as a leader who had a large following among Tamil people while preaching hate against a whole section of TAMIL PEOPLE (Brahmins), by saying that they are Aryans and subjugated others. If you can not see this, again what can I say? He is no more relevant in TN itself. If he was such a great leader, why did Annadorai splintered off? Why he has such a mixed legacy with the Dalits?

Why should the members of this Forum, who are a overwhelmingly theists accept the hate filled rantings of this vile person? Just because he was a progressive? Come on brother, you can do better.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

...Brother you know the difference between EVR and the Hindu Gurus. Gurus do not preach violence against others; Gurus do not hurt the sentiments of all theists by belittling other Gods. So, in my humble opinion, it is ludicrous to compare a man of hate to them.

So, dear brother, your acharyas cannot be haters, they can only be loving gurus, but the leaders of those you oppose can be? This is the problem. Just take a look at the kind of ideology these acharyas and gurus can't seem to ditch even in this 21st century. This is no less hate filled and violent, both physical and mental, to the long oppressed, and the progressives, than the hate and violence you guys see in EVR from your vantage point.

The difference is, at least in this forum, unlike the Brahmin theists, I and the one other atheist who is away for the moment, never use insulting epithets against your acharyas and gurus. This was my point and you didn't answer that, instead you want an exemption for your acharyas. This is double standard.

You guys are free to use any kind of language against a prominent, respected and beloved public figure because you guys think he is a hater and a promoter of violence, but that freedom is not extended in reverse -- not that I want that freedom, even if you allow me to use equally vile language against your acharyas and gurus, I decline, I don't want to.

Also, you have completely ignored my arguments on the issue of perception of violence by EVR. I have stated my position several times. I see no point in repeating once again.

One last thing, I see that you are not against all violence, you make all kinds of exceptions for the violence your favor, the kind USA engages in routinely all around the world. I don't want to get into a discussion on the justifications for US wars, I am sure all who wage wars have their own "valid" reasons -- I do not want to get sidetracked from presenting EVR's spoken and written words that may give an opportunity to some of the interested to gain a different perspective of the man.

The overwhelmingly theists members of this forum are welcome to continue to nurse their hatred towards EVR. That is not in my hands. However, as long as I am permitted to do so, I would like to present authentic and verifiable perspective of this man who stands among the very best of social reformers Tamil country has ever seen.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

My response in 'blue':

So, dear brother, your acharyas cannot be haters, they can only be loving gurus, but the leaders of those you oppose can be? This is the problem. Just take a look at the kind of ideology these acharyas and gurus can't seem to ditch even in this 21st century. This is no less hate filled and violent, both physical and mental, to the long oppressed, and the progressives, than the hate and violence you guys see in EVR from your vantage point.
Show me where any Acharyal said anything derogatory against any other group. Saying that dharma is based on caste is not any ideology or hate. One can agree or disagree, on it as a person, when it comes to a religious view, but it was part of the Hindu society for a long time and these are traditionalists. They do not call for the elimination of a whole group of folks as EVR did. Their realm is religious and not social engineering, unlike EVR. They reflect the community's value they are serving, unlike EVR. You must be living in a different world to 'see' all the violence and hate perpetrated by these Acharyals!

The difference is, at least in this forum, unlike the Brahmin theists, I and the one other atheist who is away for the moment, never use insulting epithets against your acharyas and gurus. This was my point and you didn't answer that, instead you want an exemption for your acharyas. This is double standard.
No brother, I beg to differ. You constantly attack Brahminism and the Brahmins you call hypocrites. You do not use any foul language against Gurus because you know that it will be edited out (I do not mean just you, but others in this Forum as well who harbor sectarian prejudices).

You guys are free to use any kind of language against a prominent, respected and beloved public figure because you guys think he is a hater and a promoter of violence, but that freedom is not extended in reverse -- not that I want that freedom, even if you allow me to use equally vile language against your acharyas and gurus, I decline, I don't want to.
When did it become that calling someones' hate speech as hate speech, is by itself a hate speech! I can quote passage after passage of a person saying all sorts of hate filled words, including the vile English word starting with a 'b' and ends with 'd', denoting a person of illegitimate birth. If an Acharyal has said anything close in meaning about a community, I would be the first to disown him. Do people not have the right to dislike and even hate a person who publicly called for their elimination?

Also, you have completely ignored my arguments on the issue of perception of violence by EVR. I have stated my position several times. I see no point in repeating once again.
I have already answered on this. I don't know what documented proof is there to call all his hate speech as harmless. One attempted assassination and many, many cut kudumies are enough to show he was serious. Show me where he told his followers to hold back against the Brahmins?

One last thing, I see that you are not against all violence, you make all kinds of exceptions for the violence your favor, the kind USA engages in routinely all around the world. I don't want to get into a discussion on the justifications for US wars, I am sure all who wage wars have their own "valid" reasons -- I do not want to get sidetracked from presenting EVR's spoken and written words that may give an opportunity to some of the interested to gain a different perspective of the man.
I knew you would raise this canard when I wrote my words against people of violence We discussed this long ago on terrorism. Difference of course is that an elected government is accountable to it's people, and can be voted out, while a terrorist has no such constraint.

The overwhelmingly theists members of this forum are welcome to continue to nurse their hatred towards EVR. That is not in my hands. However, as long as I am permitted to do so, I would like to present authentic and verifiable perspective of this man who stands among the very best of social reformers Tamil country has ever seen.
As I have said, and you pointed out, you have every right to post on him. But then, as the people who feel wronged by this man have every right to express their opinions as well, albeit in a civilized manner. When I call him or his writings somethings, I can show you the clear cut evidence.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

.. Saying that dharma is based on caste is not any ideology or hate. One can agree or disagree, on it as a person, when it comes to a religious view, but it was part of the Hindu society for a long time and these are traditionalists.

Dear Brother KRS,
This is your argument, really?!!

So, you think the acharyas and gurus who standby the Dharmashastras that call for all kinds of horrible punishments, verse after verse, is not promoting hate, but just a religious belief, but calling them out is hate?

You can argue until the proverbial hell freezes over, you will only have Brahminists agreeing with you, nobody else.

They do not call for the elimination of a whole group of folks as EVR did.

Dear brother, this is your opinion, and that of many Brahmins. The facts do not support your view.

Their realm is religious and not social engineering, unlike EVR.

Social engineering is what Brahminism is all about, that seems alright with you. EVR has repeatedly urged his followers to never take his words as is, and urged them to think rationally and come to a conclusion on their own. This is not the words of someone who wanted to impose his vision of how a society must be organized upon everyone else. Please read what the man actually said and then make these accusations, if you still feel like it.

They reflect the community's value they are serving, unlike EVR.

This takes the cake, I must tell you. What is their community? How far does it extend beyond the Brahmins? Is this why we see Periyar's statue in every nook and corner and Sankarachariyar gets criticized every time he goes beyond his brahmin cocoon into more general political issues? This really blows my mind, you think Sankarachariyar represents the Tamil community more than EVR!!!

You do not use any foul language against Gurus because you know that it will be edited out (I do not mean just you, but others in this Forum as well who harbor sectarian prejudices).

No, this is not why I don't use foul language, I don't because that is not me. I am really disappointed that you think I don't sink to the gutter where many members opposed to me live because you will edit it out. How come the same fear never prevented these other guys and girls from making nasty comments about me, ha?

Let me tell you dear brother KRS, I don't use nasty language not because you will edit them out, it is because it is not my true nature, really.

If an Acharyal has said anything close in meaning about a community, I would be the first to disown him. Do people not have the right to dislike and even hate a person who publicly called for their elimination?

Well, the Mahaperiyava asserts every word of Dharma shashtras is derived from the Vedas and are absolutely true. This means if Shudras hear the words of the Vedas molten lead must be poured into their ears, and if they dare say the words of the Vedas their tongue must be cut off. This is what Mahaperiyava standby as ultimate truth. I leave it up to you to do what you think is best.

As I have said, and you pointed out, you have every right to post on him. But then, as the people who feel wronged by this man have every right to express their opinions as well, albeit in a civilized manner. When I call him or his writings somethings, I can show you the clear cut evidence.

Good enough, but the question of the double standard between calling EVR all kinds of names still stands. I am not saying you have to answer it. I am grateful I am allowed to tell the truth to the Brahmins who hate EVR viscerally. That is good enough for me.

Cheers!

 

[BostonSankara]

Saying this may bring the wrath of the community against me but the more I study about them the more I believe the Dharmashastras may be one of the most evil things ever done in the name of the Vedas. I do not see any other Vedanga held with such absolute authority either.... So odd to me.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Saying this may bring the wrath of the community against me but the more I study about them the more I believe the Dharmashastras may be one of the most evil things ever done in the name of the Vedas. I do not see any other Vedanga held with such absolute authority either.... So odd to me.

Dear Shankara,

Social laws were added to dharmashastras mainly to protect the interests of the kings/kshatriyas. Religion was merely used as tool to enforce these laws. Such laws can be seen in other religions too.

A vast majority of brahmins do not even know these laws. What you said will not bring the wrath of the brahmin community.

 

[BostonSankara]

Oh and I must say. This thread.... Is one of the most heartbreaking things I have read in a long long time. It is an absolute shame that all this is unknown in this nation due to the fact that we are not only self-absorbed on a global scale but also due to the fact that (SURPRISE!!!!) we were at war in the 60's and none of this even made a blip on our radar.

Best of luck to all Tamillians in healing these deep scars and wounds. Richly diverse peoples often have richly diverse and complicated issues it seems.

Healing love and blessing to each and everyone of you and to the atheists may whatever course of nature than must occur to heal your wounds and hearts take place so that we all may grow together.

Aum Namah Sivaya

-
BostonSankara