Self respect movement

[C RAVI]

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Dear Sri.KRS, Greetings.

I was not getting into the job of moderation. When someone says this ,

Shri Nara would admire and support any one IF that person could be in a position to administer his/her ideologies and initiatives to vanquish Brahmin community by ANY ways and means,

all I said to this charge was .

Sri.Nara is not a public figure. He is a fellow member in our forum. Commenting something in compliment of our fellow member is welcome; but negative comments are not

I was trying to be as polite as possible.

That was not a comment on Sri.Nara's way of handling different ideas. Yourself and the rest of the whole forum may very well agree with such a comment; you may call that as 'discussion on an amicable manner'; I will not. Even for that kind of a comment, I made a humble suggestion only. After that suggestion , when I was accused of accusing a fellow member, I wrote this in #148 , meaning, I can't do anything further.

Cheers!


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Shri Raghy,

It is absolutely wrong to extract specific passage of my total message (as you have indicated above in blue), just concentrate on them and taking the chance conveniently to call it as unsubstantial charge of a member against another member.

The excerpt that you have produced in your post #196, addressing to Shri KRS is nothing but either an error in your part or a skill in your part to justify yourself.

To derive what a person is conveying in total, should be observed properly, considering the whole passage and then to declare if the person is making unsubstantial charge on a fellow member.

You may have a different kind of personal experiences to realize how right or how wrong was EVR and his revolution. But that is not enough to prove that the utter contempt of majority of Brahmins in TN are unreasonable and ridiculous. If you bother to know what the community at large suffered and who was EVR, go through the relevant links provided by Shri Saidevo, in some previous pages of this thread. As well what Shri KRS and other members have presented with all their honesty about EVR and his faulty & mischievous strategies to deface Brahmin Community.

I didn't make any unreasonable charge on Shri Nara. I made my open observation here, when every one knows how Shri Nara admires the revolutionary man for his critical thinking, ideologies and potent revolutionary movements that could tactically provoke other caste people to snub the Brahmin community, the only community that was exclusively accused of administering discrimination against Dalits, holding Vedas, holding higher hierarchy in caste pyramid . As such Shri Nara has an admiration for this MAN, unmindful of the irreversible damage his supporters did to Brahmin community.

As such I said that Shri Nara would admire any such revolutionist who could figure out the right spot to attack and succeed, doesn't matter, if in that bargain a caste considered to be at the top hierarchy of the caste system and considered to be the potent force to create and sustain discrimination, is vanquished mercilessly. This is to express my observation that Shri Nara is unmindful of what was done to Brahmin community.

I gave elaborate reasons for why Shri Nara admires EVR and his movements and that, as such Shri Nara has nothing to support an individual whom yourself along with others consider as hypocrite. All I said is Shri Nara is least bothered about the personality traits of EVR. His only admiration is his ability to find the right strategy to pull down the Brahmin community as the need of the hour, in order to ensure that the community loses its stand such that others could get enlightenment and freedom from submission to Brahmin's top hierarchy in the caste ladder.

This critical thinking of mine you say that is an unsubstantial charge on Shri Nara and is similar to talking ill of a fellow member. And to substantiate your charge on me you are producing an except from my passage and trying to justify yourself to Shri KRS. Wow!!! Shri Raghy, you have terribly bemused me!!

Give a patient read to my long post #175 and that of post #192, addressed to Shri Nara, with your open mind and try to figure out what is what.

I am least bothered if an individual is a public figure or just a fellow member here. All I bother is to grasp what the member's opinions are and his/her stand on a particular topic. As such, to the best of my understanding and honesty, I could well understand that Shri Nara has utter criticism to Brahminism of the past and that of the present and would sure be happy with any one who would share his criticism. Off course, Shri Nara as an individual have his right to express what he feels and I have nothing to do with it. All I did was, justifying Shri Nara's support to EVR.

Shri Nara,

It is not that, I am using your name here and making my observations on you, in this post, addressing Shri Raghy to hide myself from you. I had to do this to make Shri Raghy understand my points clearly.

No where, including in this thread, I have attempted to hide myself from you and passed on my comments against your opinions by addressing to some one else. It is not my habit. If at all I did a few times, it was in the similar circumstances and in the same sense in which my conversation started with Shri Raghy, in this thread.

I had posed my messages in my long post #175 and post #192, addressing you. I would appreciate, if you could spare your valuable time and give a read to my post and express your opinions. You may or may not find my post worthy or sensible to respond BUT, I feel, your views on them would be much important. Even if you don't respond, I would not be disheartened.

Thank you.

 

[Nara]

Continuing on the 10-point debate between Rajaji and EVR. here is point #7. For earlier post in this series, please click here.

Point #8:
Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
"ஜாதிப் பொறாமையை அஸ்திவாரமாகக் கொண்ட கட்சிகள் பயன் பெறாமல் போனபின்னும் உண்மை தேசத்தொண்டு செய்து வந்த என் நண்பர்கள் சிலர் இந்த ஜாதிச் சண்டையை எடுத்துக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்."

EVR's response:
ஜாதிப் பொறாமையை அஸ்திவாரமாகக் கொண்ட கட்சிகள் பயன் பெறாமல் போனபின்பும் உண்மை தேசத்தொண்டு செய்து வந்த என் நண்பர்கள் சிலர் இந்த ஜாதிச் சண்டையை எடுத்துக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள் என்பது -- ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியையும், ஸ்ரீமான்கள் எஸ். ராமநாதன், ஈ.வெ. ராமசாமி நாயக்கர் முதலியோர்களை குறிப்பது.

இந்நட்டில் தற்கால மாதிரியான பிராமண ஆதிக்கம் உள்ள வரையில் ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சி ஒழியவே ஒழியாது. பயன் பெறாமலும் போகாது. அதுசெய்த பயன் அளவிட்டு சொல்ல முடியாது. ஒத்துழையாமை எவ்வளவு தூரம் நாட்டு பாமர மக்களுக்கும் அரசாங்கத்தின் அக்கிரமம் விளங்கும்படி செய்து அரசாங்கத்தின் அகம்பாவம், ஒழித்து பிரித்தாளும் தந்திரத்திலும், சூழ்ச்சியிலும் ராஜ்யபாரம் நடக்கச்செய்கிறதோ, அதுபோல் ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சி, பிராமணரல்லாத பாமர ஜனங்களுக்கு பிராமண ஆதிக்கத்தின் அக்கிரமங்களை விளங்கும்படி செய்து, பிராமணர் தங்கள் உயர்ந்த ஜாதி என்று சொல்லி ஒரு காரியத்தை சாதித்துக்கொள்ளும் அகம்பாவத்தை ஒழித்து பிராமணரல்லாதாரில் சிலரை சுவாதீனப்படுத்தி ஒருவர்மேல் ஒருவரை ஏவிவிட்டு பிரித்தாளும் தந்திரத்திலும், சூழ்ச்சியிலும் தங்கள் ஆதிக்கத்தை காப்பாற்றும்படியான நிலைமையில் இறக்கிவிட்டது. ஆயிரக்கணக்கான வருஷங்களின் அக்கிரமங்களை பத்து வருஷத்தில் அஸ்திவாரத்தையே ஆட்டிவிட்டதால், இனி பாக்கியுள்ள வருஷங்களில் அது எவ்வளவு வேலை செய்யக்கூடும் என்பதை ஆச்சாரியார் அறியாமலில்லை.

ஆனாலும், பாமர ஜனங்களுக்கு சொல்லுவதுதானே என்கிற முறையில் சொல்லுகிறார். ஸ்ரீமான்கள் எஸ் ராமநாதனும், ஈ.வெ. ராமசாமி நாயக்கரும் செய்யும் தொண்டு, ஜாதிச் சண்டையானால், ஸ்ரீமான்கள் சீனிவாசய்யங்காரும், ஏ. ரங்கசாமி அய்யங்காரும், எம்.கே. ஆச்சாரியாரும், ளு. சத்தியமூர்த்தியின் மகந்துக்களும், லோககுருக்களும், சி ராஜகோபாலாச்சாரியாரும் செய்யும் தொண்டுகள் என்ன பெயரை உடையதோ! வாசகர்கள் தான் அறிந்துகொள்ளவேண்டும்.

 

[Nara]

I am not very optimistic, yet in a futile attempt to put into perspective the reasons behind this series, something I have repeated several times and have been completely ignored, let me repeat:

1. I don't agree with every last word EVR has uttered, he himself exhorted his devotees to think for themselves and accept only what made sense to them,
2. I didn't broach the topic of EVR, it was brought in by others --in the past I have always ignored them, but this time I wanted to present his own words, in context, on the outrageous charges that are routinely made as though they are facts,
3. my admiration for EVR is based on the stands he advocated on caste, women, superstitions, etc.

Yet, member after member speculate why I am posting these excerpts. There are some who bemoan that their precious time is being wasted when they have other useful things to do, who is forcing them into this thread is a mystery.

All the responses so far have been angry, inane, laced with insults, speculative of my motives, condescending to the point of giving free sage personal advice.

Then, there was one particularly obnoxious (IMO) speculation about what my motivation is, and it goes something like this, that I will support anyone who advocates the disfigurement (deface was the word used) of Brahmin community once and for all from Tamil Nadu. This kind of opinion has been blessed as amicable.

There have been some contradictory statements as well. One member says EVR's movement was an utter failure, yet others say his movement was so successful that the lives of the entire Brahmin jAti has been ruined. There are some who say EVR is irrelevant, but are outraged that his followers would get upset by the breaking of his bust.

Yes, Brahmins are a largely marginalized caste in today's politics -- they still have considerable influence in other fields. But, go back 60 to 80 years, to the days when EVR was writing these, Brahmins wielded enormous influence and control over all aspects of Tamil public life. Unfortunately, they did not exercise this power and control with wisdom. EVR left Congress to join JP only because the Brahmins in congress relentlessly obstructed his reform agenda items. All that Brahmins see as their woes in today's Tamil Nadu can be traced back to these shortsighted Brahmin congressmen.

....I am sorry to say this, sir. Because of the views of people like you, a person like EVR had success in TN. I am sorry to say this.

T.S.Sankara Narayanan is not alone in harboring this kind of views. Even in these days of the 21st century we see such people, openly expressing these anachronistic and retrograde ideas. Go back 60 to 80 years, to the days when EVR was writing these, and we will see that Tamil Nadu was awash with these people, openly supporting Varna/jAti system -- even Mahatma did.

These are the people EVR opposed and wrote about in his own inimitable scathing style. His opposition was to the ideology. He rejected the charge that he hated individual Brahmins, I cited his own words in post #111 that shows what he opposed.

In conclusion, I am going to repeat what my purpose is,

1. I don't agree with every last word EVR has uttered, he himself exhorted his devotees to think for themselves and accept only what made sense to them,
2. I didn't broach the topic of EVR, it was brought in by others --in the past I have always ignored them, but this time I wanted to present his own words, in context, on the outrageous charges that are routinely made as though they are facts,
3. my admiration for EVR is based on the stands he advocated on caste, women, superstitions, etc.

Those who think all this is waste of time, please move on, nobody is forcing you to read any of this.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

ravi said -

It is absolutely wrong to extract specific passage of my total message (as you have indicated above in blue),

Then why this portion of my message in #196

I don't consider what I wrote as interfering with moderation. I know very well Sri.Nara had an admiration for E V Ramasamy Naicker even when he was a staunch Sri Vaishnava. If one reads his messages, one can very easily put together his life. So, he did not start admiring E V Ramasamy Naicker for his words against Brahmin Community.

So, if unfounded charges gets leveled against any member and if I happen to read such a message, I shall make a suggestion in favour of the affected member in the future too. I am prepared to face the consequences.

is edited in your message in post #201? Or those rules apply to others only?

I didn't make any unreasonable charge on Shri Nara.

Really? here is the whole passage -

Going by all the posts of Shri Nara in this thread and the over all observation I could have so far from the time I joined this [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit ! important]Forum[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] is that, Shri Nara would admire and support any one IF that person could be in a position to administer his/her ideologies and initiatives to vanquish Brahmin community by ANY ways and means, irrespective of what nonsense the other upper cast community are doing against dalits. Because, Brahmins hold on Vedas and seem to sound more authorative and powerful than any other upper castes. Because, all the other Upper castes community who do injustice to dalits would also for sure join his crooked revolutionary movements along with dalits to suppress and oppress Brahmin Community once for all.
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Still I will not agree with this passage.

You may think you are making reasonable charges in that passage. But I don't agree. That's why I made a suggestion and had been criticised for that suggestion. Even if the whole forum agrees with you, still I will not agree with the charges made in that quoted passage, reasonale or unreasonable.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said:

All the responses so far have been angry, inane, laced with insults, speculative of my motives, condescending to the point of giving free sage personal advice.

Then, there was one particularly obnoxious (IMO) speculation about what my motivation is, and it goes something like this, that I will support anyone who advocates the disfigurement (deface was the word used) of Brahmin community once and for all from Tamil Nadu. This kind of opinion has been blessed as amicable.

There have been some contradictory statements as well. One member says EVR's movement was an utter failure, yet others say his movement was so successful that the lives of the entire Brahmin jAti has been ruined. There are some who say EVR is irrelevant, but are outraged that his followers would get upset by the breaking of his bust.

Let me say a few points here and put this to rest:

1. I have no issue with you admiring EVR for the things you cite.
2. Both you and Sri Raghy Ji don't seem to know the source of the virulent reaction against EVR. The reasons have been stated by me and others. Yet they are brushed aside as invalid, almost in a casual manner.
3. I don't need to 'bless' anything. I have already stated the reasons for my 'amicable' comment. I also read the 'defacing' comment. I took it as Sri Ravi Ji meaning it as 'debasing'. It would be out of place for him to mean the word he used. If he did, then obviously he is wrong.
4. I was the one who said EVR is irrelevant. He failed horribly with two central pieces of his agenda: To make the Tamil people atheistic and 'rational' and to uplift the 'Panchamas' and 'Sudhras' together. Today TN folks are mainly theistic and the Dalits hate upper caste NBs as much as they hate the Bs. I have as well as others have amply elaborated on the reasons.
5. Yes, he was successful in marginalizing the TN B community and creating hate. And this is the Truth.

I have no issues with brother Nara's postings. But when he keeps on saying that EVR was only against 'Brahminism' and not against 'Brahmins' then, one has to be challenged given his vitriol against the B's in his writings (examples of which I posted) as well as Hinduism in general.

I agree that some in the community even today may nurse uninformed and uneducated opinions as Sri TSS Ji expressed. That is why I posted against it. I seriously doubt, even in British times this was a majority view in our community. Even today, yes, these views are obviously held. But I think this view is rapidly diminishing by each generation. One does not throw out the whole Brahmin community baby with the bathwater of such obviously wrong notions.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....I have no issues with brother Nara's postings. But when he keeps on saying that EVR was only against 'Brahminism' and not against 'Brahmins' then, one has to be challenged given his vitriol against the B's in his writings (examples of which I posted) as well as Hinduism in general.

I firmly believe EVR was against Brahminism and the Brahmins who defend that hateful ideology. The examples you posted were actually more damaging to Brahmins and Braminists, let us not forget that. I renew my offer, let us take each point of EVR you cited and discuss them further one by one.

I seriously doubt, even in British times this was a majority view in our community. Even today, yes, these views are obviously held. But I think this view is rapidly diminishing by each generation. One does not throw out the whole Brahmin community baby with the bathwater of such obviously wrong notions.

The reason such retrograde opinions are diminishing is thanks to the unrelenting fights mounted by EVR. If left to the Brahmins and Brahmnists we will still be in a society that promotes varna with the Brahminical establishment touting how great a society ruled by varna ideology really is. Thankfully, EVR's ideology prevailed, and today, nobody can openly claim, not even the acharyas of Brahmins, that the Varna system is just great.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

I would not mind this post of mine be deleted if deemed unsuitable and this is going to be point blank and might fall into the accusing/personal attack category.
But this is what I feel.

Sometimes I sincerely doubt that Nara is an Atheist cos I have yet to see any post or remark which is Anti Vaishnava in my whole stay in Forum so far.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

Yes, if you wish, we can discuss the points I raised.

I disagree with you on why everyone is changing in India - including TN Bs. In fact, I think, without EVR, acceptance of casteistic changes in TN would have been bigger, without all the hate and rancor. This is because, I think the changes are produced by the necessity to adjust to the requirements of modern life than anything else. My uncle was a very orthodox and conservative man. I grew up with his family. We however lived in a very eclectic neighborhood, with all castes and religions represented there. All his children are educated and none have his orthodox views today, not because of EVR, but because we got to know our neighbors as human beings. With his hate message against one particular community, obviously the threatened community dug in. As I said, if he had used love instead of hate and truly preached and practiced equality among all, he would have been perhaps equal, if not bigger than Ambedkar, who even the B community would have embraced.

EVR raised the conscience of his constituency on how to get political power. He implanted the hate against B's. However, the proof that he did not eradicate the casteistic notions lies in the way the caste NBs treat Dalits and his mixed legacy among them.

He came at a time in TN history when due to extraordinary time of industrial transformation and life moving out of villages, and gave voice to the NBs on how to claim their communal share of the government jobs. These changes would have happened anyways (perhaps more slowly), because, after all the 3% Bs had inordinate representation in the life of the State.

Just my perspective.....

Regards,
KRS

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.

I sincerly don't know the reason for the reaction just by the mere mention of E V Ramasamy Naicker's name. I have gone through D K party harassments. As late as late 70s, my poonool was pulled down by a D K member. But I never connected them to E V Ramasamy Naicker; for me, he was just a hypocrite and an opportunist. I remember, once I was calmly explaining why E V R was a hypocrite to a group of D K members in Vellore town. I accept, my background and my strengths were slightly different to majority of brahmin community. Still as a community, Brahmins in those days did very little to safe guard their interests. Even now Brahmin community is not acting as united against any of these things.

During the British period in 1930s and 40s it was almost taken for granted that India would become a free country; most brahmins conncted to politics knew of the democratic process and they knew the percentage of brahmin population. This population was a minority, in a single digit even in those days; they should have known that in the democratic process, that small percentage would be swept aside. Yet, they did nothing to safe guard the following generations. E V Ramasamy Naicker saw the opportunity and used it well.

But even after 64 years of independence, still this community is not united yet. How come this brahmin community refused to take part in the democratic process in protest? or any such actions to attract international attention? In the democratic process, monorities can not have any strong voice. Then there should be some kind of strategy in place. There is none that I knew of; I grew up in a brahmin home too.

I don't know.. I may be ranting... but I still think, reactions to E V R's name is bit too much.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

Yes, if you wish, we can discuss the points I raised.

I disagree with you on why everyone is changing in India - including TN Bs. In fact, I think, without EVR, acceptance of casteistic changes in TN would have been bigger, without all the hate and rancor. This is because, I think the changes are produced by the necessity to adjust to the requirements of modern life than anything else. My uncle was a very orthodox and conservative man. I grew up with his family. We however lived in a very eclectic neighborhood, with all castes and religions represented there. All his children are educated and none have his orthodox views today, not because of EVR, but because we got to know our neighbors as human beings. With his hate message against one particular community, obviously the threatened community dug in. As I said, if he had used love instead of hate and truly preached and practiced equality among all, he would have been perhaps equal, if not bigger than Ambedkar, who even the B community would have embraced.

EVR raised the conscience of his constituency on how to get political power. He implanted the hate against B's. However, the proof that he did not eradicate the casteistic notions lies in the way the caste NBs treat Dalits and his mixed legacy among them.

He came at a time in TN history when due to extraordinary time of industrial transformation and life moving out of villages, and gave voice to the NBs on how to claim their communal share of the government jobs. These changes would have happened anyways (perhaps more slowly), because, after all the 3% Bs had inordinate representation in the life of the State.

Just my perspective.....

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS Ji,

I feel its all simple politics.

Sometimes when a person wants a throne he has to get rid of the "enemy".

A person who has Sama Darshinah would never advocate hatred in any form.
Cos if he hates one that means he favours another..so how can he call himself a humanist?

BTW preaching equality of the masses is almost next to impossible I feel.
Even if caste was not there humans would have found another way to divide themselves.
I can safely say that even after the next Mahapralaya we humans will still have the superior and inferior division among ourselves.

For example..even those who feel they are superior in India cos of birth or status might meet his match in some other country and he might be just called an "Colored" individual point blank on his face.


So the feeling of superiority might just be relevant in a certain geographical area...hence transient.Nothing lasts finally.

So I feel its no use trying to get rid of caste identification and superiority feeling..its better to focus time of developing the nation by hook or crook or even at gun point if needed without sidelining any particular community.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Raghy Ji,

I have already acknowledged that as a community, our then leaders did not do a good job of thinking through the implications of a minority community benefiting under the British.

I really think, and this is my personal opinion. antipathy towards EVR within our community is based on three things he did. Let me list them in order:

1. Breaking idols, ridiculing Hindu Gods and vulgarity he showed towards Hinduism in general misrepresenting our epics. B's at that time and even today think that we are the custodians of Hinduism and the Hindu culture. I think these acts shocked many of our previous generations, who till then lived in villages and got along with everyone.

2. His constant request for 'communal representation' and this hit our community's favored position in the government.

3. His spreading of hate against us, creating the Aryan/Dravidian, Sanskrit/Tamil, and identity differentiation based on pponal&kudumi. That resulted in widespread incidents of poonal and kudumi cuttings. My uncle wore a kudumi and I still remember him saying that he did not know what he would do if a mob approached him. There was real fear out there in the community.

Again, one can explain away these things and say things to minimize such reactions. Mind you, I am not saying that these reactions are justified or warranted, but they were real and existed. One can not just wish them away. Real people had real reactions to EVR on these items. I think our brother Nara Ji is arguing on idealism that our community should not hold such a hate, while I am arguing that they do and here are the reasons why.

So, the end result is that our community in general looks at him as our enemy and have come to hate him. Kamaraj implemented several policies, taken direct from his play book. But he was much beloved in our community. This is why the method matters.

I think we are more like Jews as a community. Each of us have a differing opinion on everything. This is why we will never be a political force, because we can not unite, even on the religion basis. This is why, to me, it sounds strange when our brother Nara Ji talks about a monolithic 'Brahmin' community.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.

I sincerly don't know the reason for the reaction just by the mere mention of E V Ramasamy Naicker's name. I have gone through D K party harassments. As late as late 70s, my poonool was pulled down by a D K member. But I never connected them to E V Ramasamy Naicker; for me, he was just a hypocrite and an opportunist. I remember, once I was calmly explaining why E V R was a hypocrite to a group of D K members in Vellore town. I accept, my background and my strengths were slightly different to majority of brahmin community. Still as a community, Brahmins in those days did very little to safe guard their interests. Even now Brahmin community is not acting as united against any of these things.

During the British period in 1930s and 40s it was almost taken for granted that India would become a free country; most brahmins conncted to politics knew of the democratic process and they knew the percentage of brahmin population. This population was a minority, in a single digit even in those days; they should have known that in the democratic process, that small percentage would be swept aside. Yet, they did nothing to safe guard the following generations. E V Ramasamy Naicker saw the opportunity and used it well.

But even after 64 years of independence, still this community is not united yet. How come this brahmin community refused to take part in the democratic process in protest? or any such actions to attract international attention? In the democratic process, monorities can not have any strong voice. Then there should be some kind of strategy in place. There is none that I knew of; I grew up in a brahmin home too.

I don't know.. I may be ranting... but I still think, reactions to E V R's name is bit too much.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear sister,

I agree with you on many things you have stated.

Your point about EVR being a humanist - right on with my statements before. A real humanist would have understood why the Bs were as they were and could have influenced them with a universal message. He had Rajaji as a friend and could have brought him along through inclusiveness. Instead he chose to fight some ideological battle, leading a hate parade.

I agree, it is all politics.

But one thing I need to disagree on is this. Yes, people are not born equal in their talents, but a good system should ensure that they have equal opportunities. This, unfortunately in the modern world, caste system does not do.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS Ji,

I feel its all simple politics.

Sometimes when a person wants a throne he has to get rid of the "enemy".

A person who has Sama Darshinah would never advocate hatred in any form.
Cos if he hates one that means he favours another..so how can he call himself a humanist?

BTW preaching equality of the masses is almost next to impossible I feel.
Even if caste was not there humans would have found another way to divide themselves.
I can safely say that even after the next Mahapralaya we humans will still have the superior and inferior division among ourselves.

For example..even those who feel they are superior in India cos of birth or status might meet his match in some other country and he might be just called an "Colored" individual point blank on his face.


So the feeling of superiority might just be relevant in a certain geographical area...hence transient.Nothing lasts finally.

So I feel its no use trying to get rid of caste identification and superiority feeling..its better to focus time of developing the nation by hook or crook or even at gun point if needed without sidelining any particular community.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

EVR's 'other side' is well documented by M.Venkatesan and others, with as reliable sources from his own speeches and writings, as those given for his projected side.

As KRS and others have pointed out--and it is my opinion too--, in the final count, most brahmins, many other caste (why use the term non-brahmin to refer to people of other castes?) celebrities, and many other discerning people among the public always saw him as more of an opportunistic politican who spawned a culture of mischievous, biased, hateful, break-and-divide, and hypocritical propaganda which is being carried on today against the innocuous brahmin community of today, for utterly selfish ends. So long as his projected side is sought to be highlighted by vested politicians and atheistic intellectuals, it will be countered by writings of his 'other side', so the general public has a view of the man and his mission.

Some extracts of EVR's speeches and writings against brahmins and Hinduism; members might decide for themselves whether these are hateful, rancorous and opportunistic or

as in Nara's opinion, "usual rhetorical hyperbole (post 152)", "of a plain spoken, earthy person, and it showed in his language...All his "crass" and "hateful words" make perfect sense when viewed from this perspective of shaking the Tamil psyche from the stupor of imposed inferiority. (post 127)"

First about EVR's belief in 'Isan aruL' and 'rituals':
???????? ??. ?. - ???? ???? ?????????

• http://www.tamilhindu.com/2009/07/periyar_marubakkam_part06/
ஈ.வே. ராவின் தலைமையில் நடந்த நிகழ்ச்சி

1971-ம் ஆண்டு ஜனவரி மாதம் 6-ம் தேதி தினமணி நாளிதழில் வந்த செய்தி:

நாத்திக மாநாடு; முகூர்த்தக்கால் நடப்பட்டது! மஞ்சள், குங்குமம் மாவிலைக் கொத்துடன் – என்ற தலைப்பில் இருந்த செய்தியில் சேலம் போஸ் மைதானத்தில் 1971-ல் ஜனவரி 16,17-ம் தேதிகளில் ‘பகுத்தறிவாளர்கள் மாநாடு’ ஒன்று நடத்தப்பட உள்ளது. இம்மாநாட்டிற்கு ஈ.வே. ராமசாமி நாயக்கர் தலைமை தாங்க உள்ளார். அதற்காக ஒரு பெரிய பந்தலும் போடப்பட்டுள்ளது. இந்தப் பந்தல் போடுவதற்கு முன்பாக ‘மாவிலை, வேப்பிலை’ கட்டப்பட்ட முகூர்த்தக்கால் நடப்பட்டு மஞ்சள் குங்குமமும் பூசப்பட்டது. அவ்வழியே சென்ற மக்கள் இதனைக் கண்டு வியப்படைந்தனர். (நன்றி: விஜய பாரதம் 10-02-2002)

• From a comment sivakumar.p on October 2, 2010 at 7:08 pm in that same webpage:
ஈரோட்டில் வசிக்கும் நான் ஈ வேராவின் உறவினன் .என்னுடைய சிறு வயதில் என் தாயாருடன் நான் உடல் நலமில்லாமல் படுக்கையில் இருந்த பெரியாரை காண சென்றிருக்கிறேன் .அப்போது அவரது தலைமாட்டில் திருப்பதி வெங்கடாசலபதி போட்டோ மாடியிருந்ததைபார்த்திருக்கிறேன்.

ஈ.வே. ராமசாமி நாயக்கரின் கடவுள் மறுப்புக் கொள்கை போலியானது என்பதற்கு இதோ ஆதாரங்கள்:-
16-11-1930 ஆம் ஆண்டு ‘குடியரசு’ இதழில் கேள்வி-பதில் வடிவில் ஈ.வே. ராமசாமி நாயக்கர் எழுதுகிறார்:-

வினா: கிருஸ்தவனாகப் போவதில் என்ன கெடுதி?

விடை: ஒரு கெடுதியும் இல்லை. ஆனால், மதத்தின் பேரால் குடிக்க வேண்டாம்.

வினா: மகமதியனாவதில் என்ன கெடுதி?

விடை: ஒரு கெடுதியும் இல்லை. ஆனால் பெண்களுக்கு மூடி போடாதே.

வினா: கிருஸ்தவ மதத்தில் சில ஆபாசக் கொள்கைகள் இருந்தும் அவர்கள் எப்படி உலகை ஆளுகிறார்கள்?

• விடை: கிருஸ்தவ மதத்தில் எவ்வளவு ஆபாசமும் முட்டாள் தனமுமான கொள்கைகளும் இருந்தபோதிலும் அதைப்பற்றி நமக்கு கவலை இல்லை. ஏனெனில் அவர்கள் பெரும்பாலும் பகுத்தறிவுக்கு மதிப்பு கொடுப்பவர்களாகிவிட்டார்கள். அவர்கள் வாழ்க்கைக்கோ, மன உணர்ச்சிக்கோ சிறிதும் மதத்தை லட்சியம் செய்வதில்லை. அதனால் அவர்கள் மதத்தைப் பற்றி நாம் பேசுவது பயனற்றதும் முட்டாள்தனமும் ஆகும்.

• 23-08-1931 ‘குடியரசு’:
புத்தர், கிறிஸ்த்து, மகமது நபி ஆகியோர்கள் சீர்திருத்தகாரர்களாயத் தோன்றினார்கள்… மதங்கள் ஒழிந்த பிறகு தான் உலக சமாதானமும், ஒற்றுமையும், சாந்தியும் ஏற்பட முடியும் என்பது அநேக அறிஞர்களது அபிப்பிராயமானாலும் அதற்கு விரோதமாக ஏதாவது ஒரு மதம் இருக்கும்போது உலக சமாதானம் ஏற்பட்டுவிட்டது. சாந்தி ஏற்பட்டுவிட்டது என்று சொல்லப்படுமானால் அது இஸ்லாம் கொள்கைகளாகத் தான் இருக்கக்கூடும் என்று கருதுகின்றேன்.

• 26-06-1943 ‘விடுதலை’:
‘‘இந்து மதத்தைத்தான் மானமுள்ள ஆதிதிராவிடனும், தமிழனும் வெறுத்து அதிலிருந்து விலக வேண்டுமே ஒழிய, அதைவிட்டு இஸ்லாம் மதத்தைப் பற்றியோ, வேறுமதத்தைப் பற்றியோ வெறுத்துப் பேசுவது மதியற்றதும், மான உணர்ச்சியற்றதுமாகும்.’’

• Considering the points raised about the authenticity of the so-called 'shrI-mukham', it only appears to be an attempt at cheap publicity. If we have an opportunity to have a look at the contemporary issues like Sudesamittiran or other so-called 'pArppanar' magazines, I think someone might have refuted this claim.

Although Nara has not given the link, here it is:
???????? ??. ?. - ???? ???? ?????????

And the imaginary conversation between a brahmin and siddha vaidyas that is published on that page immediately after the 'shrI-mukham' is a sample of the extent of vulgarity the man and his group use in their speeches and writings, even today. In all probability, the author of the skit who called himself 'Chittiraputtiran' was none other than EVR himself.

More perhaps later....

 

[C RAVI]

ravi said -



Then why this portion of my message in #196 is edited in your message in post #201? Or those rules apply to others only?



Really? here is the whole passage - Still I will not agree with this passage.

You may think you are making reasonable charges in that passage. But I don't agree. That's why I made a suggestion and had been criticised for that suggestion. Even if the whole forum agrees with you, still I will not agree with the charges made in that quoted passage, reasonale or unreasonable.

Refer Shri Saidevo's post #213 with patience and with an open mind...

And understand who EVR is, what was all about his mischievous strategy to jolt TN and who his supporters and admirers are.

I need to appreciate you for your sense of team spirit and your endurance to stand on your claims even if the whole forum agrees with me.

Btb, Ineeya Tamizh Puththaandu Nall Vaazhthugal..

My God bless all and releave every one from the grip of ignorance & negative thoughts and rescue all from mischievousness.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.

.. but I still think, reactions to E V R's name is bit too much.

Cheers!

It is hilarious to read the above comment. LOL!!! That, the reactions are bit too much "just" due to the usage and appearance of EVR's name.

Members who are into serious debate here, about EVR, his strategies and all related comments in favor or in against or expressions of suggesting todays brahmin to help eradicate caste ism in TN would for sure find the above remarks irrelevant, IMHO.

If my above opinion is found to be correct by many members here, don't feel disheartened. Just a friendly suggestion.

 

[Nara]

.... I have gone through D K party harassments. As late as late 70s, my poonool was pulled down by a D K member. But I never connected them to E V Ramasamy Naicker;

Dear Raghy,

I condemn acts such as pulling poonool, cutting kudumi, etc. Brahmins have every right to wear poonool, in the open, or any other Brahmnical marks, without being molested in any way, as long as they don't interfere in the freedoms of others.

I also would like to submit to you, and to others, for your consideration, following.

First a little bit of digression, my personal experience, which need not be taken seriously. I have worn poonool for a long time, taken its meaning seriously, performed sandhayavandhanam 3 times every day, religiously, without fail. This reinforced my identity as a Brahmin everyday. They were benign things, not extreme forms of untouchability, though there was some untochability that many even now justify. My thinking was, being Brahmin defined certain duties for me and I tried to fulfill them to the best of my ability. Similarly, I thought the other castes have their own set of duties that they must try to fulfill and all will be well, you know, classic varna darma stuff.

Only later, much later, after keeping an open mind and a lot of reading, I realized all this made me think of people along jAti lines. A feeling of separation along B and NB lines is inevitable. I realized that all this is what that poonool represents. Poonool is the symbol that reminds us, and others, that we are Brahmins, different from NBs.

The Brahminical establishment will never take the lead role in any reform effort. So far, with every generation, they have been catching up with the ordinary Brahmins leading. Ordinary Brahmins hold the acharyas in reverence, but they also casually ignore their advice on how to lead a Brahmin life. So, any further reform must be organic, bottom up. The acharyas will catch up.

Here are some specific suggestions for those who are reform minded, others please ignore.

[1] Remove and throw away the poonool. You don't need it to be pious, to go to temples, to go to carnatic music concerts, or a range of other things Brahmins consider their culture.
[2] Do not go to temples where only Brahmins are allowed to be priests and the God is said to loose all sanctity if any NB enters the garbha gruham, however qualified, knowledgeable, sincere, honest, clean, the NB may be.
[3] If your children wish to marry outside jAti, don't try to stop them with threats, embrace them with love and understanding.
[4] Better still, if you are arranging your children's marriage, look for suitable alliances beyond caste boundaries.

These are my sincere suggestions. I am not trying to force anybody to do any of this, but I urge you to give them your serious consideration. Those who give excuses, or worse still, argue against these suggestions, may look like Brahmin supporters, but their views and actions will not serve the Brahmins well.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Poonool is the symbol that reminds us, and others, that we are Brahmins, different from NBs.

No. In my village poonool was worn by Chettiars, Acharis and Karumans too ( செட்டியார் ஆசாரி கருமான்). Viewing from that, Poonool did not differentiate brahmins from other castes since some of the other castes too wore poonool.

While I personally have done all the four points outlined by you, my reasons were slightly different. Reforms don't start with any or all the four points. Reforms starts in the mindset. You know it, but I can'tunderstand why you are not saying it!

I had one uncle (சித்தப்பா) , nomore now. He was a very good friend of mine. I was grilling him with questions on my upanayanam day. That evening when we were on our own he said " always remember this; பூணூலை அருத்தவன்தான் ஞானி!".. I could not understand that. My uncle, he was wearing his poonool. After seeing my confusion he further said " I am not a ஞானி', but you will learn later. He was right. One who had given up his karmaas or the one who does not have any karma has no use for poonool. ( one who does not even know any of his parents will not have karma). I don't remember the verse in Gita... Even in that I read, the one who left karmas will become ஞானி, and a ஞானி is not bound by nything.

poonool is a rope that ties one down with karma. I removed my poonool long back. (So, what did I do for my son's wedding? Just like any non-brahmin, vadhyar put the poonool on for me just for the ceremony). How ever, removing the poonool will not bring the reform. The reform should be in the mindset.

My grandmother was very orthodox. She would go to farm everyday; nobody can touch her, including brahmins, including her grand children. Only after she came back and completed her poojas and completed her lunch, close family members may touch her! But she was a reformist. You were a S V; whatever acharam you followed, that lady followed the very same acharams too till her death. But she had a reformist mindset.

I request you look at your message in post #216 once again, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....Reforms starts in the mindset. You know it, but I can'tunderstand why you are not saying it!

Dear Raghy, I have been saying exactly this right from the time I joined this forum, the mindset needs to change. To even consider my suggestions there must be a change in mindset. Change in mindset is a prerequest for someone to act upon my suggestions.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members, Greetings.

I am willing to have a discussion with Sri.Nara. I request other members not to interfere with this conversation, please. One may say to me to have this conversation in PM if I so desired; I like to say to one that there may be one or two members who may be interested in following such discussion, so, kindly don't spoil it, please.

Sri. KRS, I request you to consider me starting a thread within a thread, if you please. Kindly allow us to have the conversation in public without interruptions, please. Thank you.

Dear Sri. Nara, Greetings.

as you can see, I am requesting for a private conversation in a public forum. If it is not agreeable to you, kindly mention it, please; I shall wrap this thread within the thread.

Dear Raghy, I have been saying exactly this right from the time I joined this forum, the mindset needs to change. To even consider my suggestions there must be a change in mindset. Change in mindset is a prerequest for someone to act upon my suggestions.

The suggestions made by yourself are just one way of doing things; but that is not the only way. When someone has the right mindset, one can be a reformist without following any of the steps suggested by yourself. You may have been thinking about the mindset; but you have been stressing more on your steps. You must appreciate there are others with different steps to reach the exact same goals. For such pesons, your steps may not seem important at all.

Your input please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...as you can see, I am requesting for a private conversation in a public forum. If it is not agreeable to you, kindly mention it, please; I shall wrap this thread within the thread.

I always welcome civil and reasonable exchange.

You must appreciate there are others with different steps to reach the exact same goals. For such pesons, your steps may not seem important at all.

What is the goal? To me, the goal is to free ourselves from the feeling of separation, B and NB, exclusivity, supremacy of Brahmins. Change in mindset is essential for this. The actions I have suggested are but the natural manifestation of the change in mindset. In other words, I feel, a change in mindset will inevitably result in these actions, and those who are unwilling to put at least some of these suggestions into action have not achieved the change in mindset, there is still some lingering Brahmin supremacy/separation vasana.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste.

TBs who cannot ignore Nara's 'reformation ideas' in his post #216, might take a cue from the self respect and community pride highlighted in this website:
Viswakarma Brahmins - 100% Spiritual Informations for Viswabrahmins

 

[BostonSankara]

I am speechless and overjoyed at finding the civil and beneficial turns that this thread has taken.

 

[tbs]

dear nara sir,
Shudra' a film on evils of the caste system (Lead, Superseding earlier story)

'Shudra' a film on evils of the caste system (Lead, Superseding earlier story)

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

What is the goal? To me, the goal is to free ourselves from the feeling of separation, B and NB, exclusivity, supremacy of Brahmins. Change in mindset is essential for this. The actions I have suggested are but the natural manifestation of the change in mindset. In other words, I feel, a change in mindset will inevitably result in these actions, and those who are unwilling to put at least some of these suggestions into action have not achieved the change in mindset, there is still some lingering Brahmin supremacy/separation vasana.

Slow down, please. There is no point in opening your discussions at Phd level, where as most members of the Hindu society are at primary school level. You posed a question and answered that question with a social revelution level; because, whatever you just mentioned there should be applicable to all the high caste hindus and all the persons belonging to hindu faith too, if any changes to happen.

I submit to you not to get impatient with my replies, please.

Kindly imagine a scenario, please. A raging river filled with flood from bank to bank.It seems so menacing, noone dares step in it. You are an expert swimmer; you planned on well about crossing this river and crossed it. There are others on the other side, some of them like to swim across, but too afraid to do it; some of them like to see the progress of others before even coming close to that river; some of them have no desire to cross that river ever; some of them believe that river serves a good purpose by scaring people away from crossing to the other side.

You are one of the very few who crossed. you are asking others to jump in and cross and getting frustrated when you see their hesitation.

That river is made up of the caste system and all the ills connected to that caste system. Religion does not really play any major role in that river.

Kindly don't be surprised if you don't find people lining up to jump in the river. They are petrified. You may argue that river was their own making in the first place. Yes, indeed; but it is a monster now.

So, what is the goal? The primary goal is to realise everyone is equal inspite of the caste one belongs to.

Secondly, if you want any changes to happen, you have to stay on this side to assure others. You should be seen criss crossing the river at will. If you need an example, think of Sri. Narayana Guru, please.

I am voicing the majority here. Kindly don't forget, the suggestion #2 and #3 in your list with respect to innter caste marriage will not work in changing the mind set if everyone stays on this side of the river. Example - Namboodiris married from outside of the caste; but did it help any of the social engineering?

Your input, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Greetings. For the interested members, here is the information about Sri. Narayana Guru, kindly visit - Narayana Guru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers!