Self respect movement

[renuka]

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I have a doubt.
Every community in this world has its own culture and rules and regulations.
The indian society isnt rigidly divided into Brahmins and Non Brahmins.
We have various sects,caste and subcaste and each have their own identity.

From a Non Brahmin point of view..let me just state that when we see a Brahmin wearing a scared thread we just view it as his culture and that does not give us a feeling or sense of discrimination.

Its just like seeing a muslim or a jew with his own identification.
It does not make the wearer superior nor does it make the on looker inferior.

The sacred thread is most of the while viewed as added responsibility and may be a sense of respect is given for that.

I dont feel any Brahmin should view wearing one's sacred thread as being identifying him as different from a Non Brahmin.

Dont Brahmins themselves practise their own form of differences as in subcaste,Iyer Vs Iyengar and also do other state Brahmins feel the brotherhood feelings with fellow Brahmins of other states?No isn't it?

So unity still remains a distant reality.

The only thing that can foster unity is a change of mindset and not outward appearance.

Will give you a simple example..Once when I was in the government service and aged lady some 60 + complained to the Hospital Director that Dr Renuka sits on her chair very straightly and not hunching and the old lady told to the Hospital Director that it made her feel that she is only a patient and Dr Renuka is a doctor.

I was called up by the Hospital Director and he told me to hunch when I sit on the chair so that patients wont feel "small" in front of me.

I was really shocked at the complain of the lady cos I have been treating her very politely and patiently listened to all her ailments and also the surprising suggestion by the Hospital Director... cos a bad sitting posture is not what any doctor would prescribe and as a human I had the right to sit correctly.

So people can feel superior or inferior for any reason and even being a Doctor seemed to be a problem for a patient.
Wearing a stethoscope too can be a mark of differentiation from anyone..so are we doctors supposed to stop wearing it around our neck?

Same way..I feel the sacred thread is just a mark of responsibility and let it be that way.

 

[C RAVI]

I have a doubt.
Every community in this world has its own culture and rules and regulations.
The indian society isnt rigidly divided into Brahmins and Non Brahmins.
We have various sects,caste and subcaste and each have their own identity.

From a Non Brahmin point of view..let me just state that when we see a Brahmin wearing a scared thread we just view it as his culture and that does not give us a feeling or sense of discrimination.

Its just like seeing a muslim or a jew with his own identification.
It does not make the wearer superior nor does it make the on looker inferior.

The sacred thread is most of the while viewed as added responsibility and may be a sense of respect is given for that.

I dont feel any Brahmin should view wearing one's sacred thread as being identifying him as different from a Non Brahmin.

Dont Brahmins themselves practise their own form of differences as in subcaste,Iyer Vs Iyengar and also do other state Brahmins feel the brotherhood feelings with fellow Brahmins of other states?No isn't it?

So unity still remains a distant reality.

The only thing that can foster unity is a change of mindset and not outward appearance.

Will give you a simple example..Once when I was in the government service and aged lady some 60 + complained to the Hospital Director that Dr Renuka sits on her chair very straightly and not hunching and the old lady told to the Hospital Director that it made her feel that she is only a patient and Dr Renuka is a doctor.

I was called up by the Hospital Director and he told me to hunch when I sit on the chair so that patients wont feel "small" in front of me.

I was really shocked at the complain of the lady cos I have been treating her very politely and patiently listened to all her ailments and also the surprising suggestion by the Hospital Director... cos a bad sitting posture is not what any doctor would prescribe and as a human I had the right to sit correctly.

So people can feel superior or inferior for any reason and even being a Doctor seemed to be a problem for a patient.
Wearing a stethoscope too can be a mark of differentiation from anyone..so are we doctors supposed to stop wearing it around our neck?

Same way..I feel the sacred thread is just a mark of responsibility and let it be that way.

Dear Renuka,

Your post #226, from a NB point of view, is highly appreciable. It makes true sense of the ground reality.

As you say, we need to be smart to find the realities of the society, considering the whole lot and bring about the changes in the mind set within the community in order to work better against discrimination, feelings of supremacy and ill feelings among the community, in a society.

Instead, if we start forcing our self to go against our will, wish, sense of reverence, sense of satisfaction, sense of duty and throw away our identity/tradition/culture as a weak, meek, threatened & bullied individuals, this can not be construed as healthy make over of mind ensuring stability, sensibility and fairness in upholding unity, love and respect among fellow members of the community as well as among all communities, in a society.

Reformations are needed in a wise way and not in a foolish way. No use to be a reformed community when that reformation with wrong suggestions within the community not gonna serve any true purpose.

I have some honest questions here.

Do brahmins wear poonal for the purpose of reassuring themselves that they are pious? OR it is a custom/tradition/culture that serves different karmic purposes to a wearer? If all the Brahmins remove and throw away their poonal, will that for sure lead to absence of social and political discrimination? Will that help Brahmins to be relieved from their caste identity BY BIRTH?

Visiting or avoid visiting specific temples on specific grounds and opting for or rejecting Inter Caste marriage is a personal choice with many reasons, many justifications and many inter related implications. So, I have nothing to seriously ponder over it.

But, since wearing poonal is found to be extremely wrong, representing a strong symbol of discrimination/separation, my doubt is, what sort of social and political indiscrimination can be expected by removing and throwing away the poonal? Will a Brahmin be considered as a broad minded reformist & humanist without any sense and symbol of separateness ONLY IF he remove and throws away his poonal? Only if he stops performing Sandhyavandanam? Only if he stops performing pitru karmas? Only if he stops following his specific tradition/culture/systems that are some way or other unique to Brahmins? Only if he eats meat/chicken/beef/pork along with NB's? Only if he stops visiting and revering his revered Acharayas?

If the answer is YES, I totally fail to see how a society can be considered as undiscriminating society with justice, love and respect to each individual, irrespective of his faith, culture, tradition, likes, dislikes, eating habits, way of life etc..etc.? How can the other communities in society can be respected, considered fair and accepted to go their way, if other communities can not feel comfortable with the presence of differently cultured folks (Brahmins), of the present times?

I am yet to see a NB community association that works towards teaching a fellow poor NB how to perform a wedding AND I am yet to see a NB who would wish to engage a trained NB to perform a marriage. I am not seeing this happening through out India. WHY?

Do common NB folks from NB community in TN needs a qualified Brahmin purohit/Shaastri/Vaadyaar to perform marriage for them? To perform housewarming ceremony for them? To perform poojas and homams in their house hold? To perfrom certain after death rituals? The answer for all is YES! YES! YES!!

Does it all means that a common Brahmin who is in secular profession should throw away all his practices and values that he does for himself as personal choice of an individual, is a hypocrite, is a Brahmin supremacist, is a discriminating and separating individual, is a non Tamilian???

I really fail to see how the Brahmin Community in TN, in present times, is paying tricks in the society and hurting all others with their presence?

I really fail to see why is there a need for all the individuals of Brahmin Community TODAY to throw away everything related to Brahminism and prove that they are ONE among other Tamilians? To prove that they are humans too with varying financial standards, color, taste, skills and preferences? To prove that they don't indulge is social discrimination and injustice?

 

[Nara]

Point #9 of the 10-point debate between Rajaji and EVR. For earlier post in this series, please click here.

Point #9:
Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
"நின்றால் குற்றம், உட்கார்ந்தால் குற்றம் - பழைய புஸ்தகங்களில் இம்மாதிரி எழுதி இருக்கிறது என்ற வீண் சண்டைகள் யாதொரு நன்மையும் பயவா."

EVR's response:
"நின்றால் குற்றம், உட்கார்ந்தால் குற்றம், பழைய புஸ்தகங்களில் இப்படி இருக்கிறது, அப்படி இருக்கிறது என்ற வீண் சண்ண்டை பலன் தராது என்று பந்தயம் கூறுவது, இதைக்குறிப்பாய் சொன்னால் நன்றாயிருந்திருக்கும். அம்மாதிரி மனு முதலிய பழைய புஸ்தகங்களை இவர் ஒப்புக்கொள்கிறாரா அல்லது தள்ளி விடுகிறாரா? பிராமண ஆதிக்கம் வந்தால் இந்த புஸ்தகம் அமுலுக்கு வருமா வராதா?

திருப்பூர் கான்பரன்சில் ஒரு தகராரின்போது அந்த புஸ்தகங்கள்தான் இன்றைக்கில்லாவிட்டாலும், மற்றொரு நாளைக்காவது தர்மங்களை காக்க உபயோகப்படும் என்று ஸ்ரீமான் ஆச்சாரியார் சொன்னவுடன், வெள்ளைக்கார ஆட்சி அடங்கி பிராமண ஆட்சி ஏற்பட்ட உடன் தானே என்று ஸ்ரீமான் ஈ.வெ.ராமசாமி நாயக்கர் சொன்னதும், ஆச்சாரியார் புன்சிரிப்பு சிரித்தார். அது இப்போது ஞாபகத்துக்கு வருகிறது.

 

[Nara]

..... Kindly don't forget, the suggestion #2 and #3 in your list with respect to innter caste marriage will not work in changing the mind set if everyone stays on this side of the river. Example - Namboodiris married from outside of the caste; but did it help any of the social engineering?

Dear Raghy, Social engineering is a process imposed on the society from outside, one may cite the Chinese Cultural revolution as an example. I am not talking about social engineering at all. At the very outset itself I said these are only suggestions to those who are reform minded. Let me cite my concluding statement from that post.

"These are my sincere suggestions. I am not trying to force anybody to do any of this, but I urge you to give them your serious consideration. Those who give excuses, or worse still, argue against these suggestions, may look like Brahmin supporters, but their views and actions will not serve the Brahmins well."

​

These are my thoughts, whether it makes sense or not is for each individual to decide. The suggestions I made are about personal conduct that do not affect anybody else. Nothing overt, no need to publicize, they can be adopted quietly without anyone noticing. If one wishes to be public about it, that is welcome too.

These are not about other people, let them do whatever works best for them. Anyone who cares about universal brotherhood, justice, compassion, and all such nice things can implement these suggestions in their own personal lives. IMO, unwillingness to seriously consider at least the first 3 suggestions is indicative of a need for further reform of the mindset of the given individual.

I have read about Narayana Guru, and I know he was fiercely opposed by the Bramins he encountered.

Cheers!

 

[ozone]

For a True gNaNi, the presence or absence of the poonol would be of least botheration. Only those so called me too gNaNis that start with its removal, end up having accomplished only that. In their quest to find company, they keep preaching its benefits as if it is an universal truth and as if they have witnessed large scale well being from doing this.Those I have witnessed do it have only caused indifference and bloated ego to fill the void with some ending being frustrated to see themselves neither here nor there. For the AgNaNi it reminds him of responsibility and discipline expected of him.

 

[saidevo]

namste Ravi.

Excellent post, #227 of yours. You are very right that unless every caste is prepared to shed its external identity, practices and internal customs, brahmins will only be making a fool of themselves, more and more, by trying to be secular and atheistic.

• Even if a casteless society is established, there would still be feelings and perceptions of supremacy and inferiority, in the secular social and occupational set up. And all the politicians, intellectuals and atheists will never open their mouth about any such inequality, and worse, would seek to justify it on flimsy grounds.

• No caste is superior or inferior per se, but in today's society, superiority is practiced and inferiority is perceived both in caste-ridden and class-ridden societies.

• So IMO, all that is required of today's brahmins, especially TBs, is to have a feeling of self respect and be proud of their identity, just as people of the other castes do. So long as these feelings do not interfere with the freedom of individuals and groups in the society, there is nothing wrong about keeping caste identities and still try to lead a secular life of peaceful coexistence.

 

[renuka]

I would like to highlight another point is sometimes in life a person is respected cos he practices his svadharma.

Many times we have seen Muslims out here who do not fast during the fasting month and they say they are "cool types" and do not follow the tenants of their religion strictly.

Believe me when we encounter such individuals we tend to lose respect for them.

Now coming back to Hindu society:

In the past there have been great individuals who have removed their sacred thread cos they have gone beyond bodily identification and merged with the Universal Truth and preached equality and spirituality to mankind.

<Edtd - KRS>

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Nara, Greetings.

I am glad you read about Sri. Narayana Guru. ( Once I posted a movie by the name 'Yugapurushan' based on Sri. Narayana Guru's life & his teachings).

The suggestions provided by you are designed by you. I would neither argue for them nor would argue against them. As you rightly said, they are personal choices. When a whole organised followers of a religion believed the world was flat, just one tiny Galileo worked out that the world was spherical. So, I will not criticise if you are amoung the minority or even amoung single digit or just one person by yourself. You believe in your resolve which is fine.

But how are you going to help anyone to develop a proper mindset? I am not even addressing that as 'change in mind set', but rather 'a proper mind set'. Justice, compassion and other nicer qualities flow as the mind set develops.

Just because someone is wearing a poonool, that does not mean such person may not have compassion. When I was young I respected that poonool because I believed my parents initiated that to me ( later on I found differently. But that is a different story). ( the unfortunate guy who broke my poonool did not know my sentiment; He would have remembered that incident for a very long time in his life). Different persons have different priorities. I met my brother-in-law only few weeks ago in his NB son-in-law's home. He was so proud of his son in law; dotes on his grand children.... he has his poonool, performs 'thrikaala sandhya', performs all the karmas for his father. his NB son in law became vegitarian. My brother in law had not followed your first suggestion; wouldn't mind your second although he would go to any temple as he pleases; fulfilled your third suggestion; didn't do the fourth one. I bet he is is not the only one example. Would you say such persons have developed mind set?

A developed mind need not fall in such a narrow window. When you keep a very narrow window, instead of inviting people you will only end up chasing them away.

If you are going to present your ideas on a "take it or leave it" basis, there may not be many takers for such an idea.

It is very important one has to present the benefits along with an idea or a change.

What kind of benefit would an individual obtain when adopting one or more of those suggestions? When people read your message, that is the first question that would pop up in their mind.

If there is no benefit, why would one even consider such steps? ( What Raghy personally does is irrelevant here). I am posing these questions as anyone would. I am requesting you to meditate these questions, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Raghy,

...But how are you going to help anyone to develop a proper mindset? I am not even addressing that as 'change in mind set', but rather 'a proper mind set'. Justice, compassion and other nicer qualities flow as the mind set develops.

Plesae forgive me, this is not my burden to carry. You are expecting way too much from an armchair atheist.

Just because someone is wearing a poonool, that does not mean such person may not have compassion.

Raghy brother, I am not talking about judging others like, he is wearing poonool so he must be this or that. What I am talking about is each individual to delve into his/her own consciousness, deep into the crevasses where demons hide, and evaluate the reasons for wearing that caste symbol that, IMO, forces one into separateness and superiority.

If you are going to present your ideas on a "take it or leave it" basis, there may not be many takers for such an idea.

I won't word it in such stark terms as "take it or leave it", I am urging those who are reform minded to give this a thought.

It is very important one has to present the benefits along with an idea or a change.

The benefit is personal, the satisfaction of doing the right thing for its own sake, putting to action the love and compassion we all proclaim.

Please tell me, does one really need the poonool to revere Vedas and Vedic sages? Do you need the poonool to be pious and God loving? Given this poonool reminds the wearer and others alike of jAti, what benefit is there on insisting on wearing that thread that separates, not unites? (I know there are other jAtis who wear it too, here I am talking about Brahmins, and only to them it is of paramount importance.)

The same argument holds for refraining from temples in which the mere presence of a Shudra in the Garbha Gruham is enough to make the God vacate the sannidyam from the idol, no matter how knowledgeable, sincere, honest, and pious the Shudra is.

Gracefully accepting icm is clearly for one's own benefit. Those who vehemently oppose it when their children present that decision, not only make their own lives miserable, but their children's lives as well.

Actively considering icm -- not seeking just considering -- is probably a part of the signs of a truly emancipated Brahmin, i.e. one for whom "Brahmin" is not what he/she considers as their primary identity, or even an important aspect of their social identity.

Once again, I am not on a crusade. I will be happy even if one person is motivated to give these ideas some thought. To act or not is up to the individual. If not today, someday, somewhere, a progressive minded person will surely consider these, I think.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... by trying to be secular and atheistic.

And all the politicians, intellectuals and atheists will never open their mouth about any such inequality, and worse, would seek to justify it on flimsy grounds.

Secular, intellectual, atheist -- is this the natural grouping?

Saidevo, you have left the target of your criticism unsaid. In so far as in this thread I stand alone with everybody arrayed on the other side, I think it is not unreasonable for me to think you are criticizing me. Why not address your dismay to me?

I hope I am taken at my word, that I am secular and an atheist. I have no illusions of being an intellectual. Let us get these basics straight.

What I am advocating is about each individual. Whether others continue to be mired down by parochial feelings and superstitions or not, is irrelevant. Yes, there will always be inferiority and supremacy on one ground or another in society. But the question is not whether the society will ever be completely free of such injustices, the question is to what extent each individual wishes to participate in such injustices whatever the justification may be.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara.

Ref. your post #235:
Yes, there will always be inferiority and supremacy on one ground or another in society. But the question is not whether the society will ever be completely free of such injustices, the question is to what extent each individual wishes to participate in such injustices whatever the justification may be.

• Good that we agree on the point that in any society--however modern and secular or traditional and religious--there will always be inferiority and supremacy on one ground or another.

• Today, it is both caste-based and class-based, whereas you can only advocate for eradication of caste-based discrimination, urging brahmins to take the lead. My point is that assuming that it happens, there would still be class-based discrimination: what would you suggest towards eradication of that?

• In other words, when it would never be possible to eliminate class-based distinctions and discriminations, what is the use in advocating for only brahmins shedding their caste identity?

More specifically, combining your statement above that "the question is to what extent each individual wishes to participate in such injustices whatever the justification may be" with the four kind-of codes-of-conduct suggestions you have proffered for individual brahmins,

as long as any feelings of superiority or inferiority are not expressed in conduct in the society, how does, and to what extent a Tamil brahmin individual participate in social injustices in the changed circumstances today, by living a personal life of 'brahmin culture' side by side with his secular official life?

And how is a brahmin individual exenterated from any charges of social injustice by completely turning away from his dharma?

• Contrary to all the negative propaganda by the DK and DMK groups, brahmins in TN today, who are in secular occupations but still try to retain their identity, IMO, are NOT seen by the general public as any different from people of any other castes who retain their identities in peaceful coexistence.

• Is there any evidence, so far as TN is concerned, that brahmins who have completely thrown away their identity and become irreligious, are appreciated for their action?

• It seems to me that reality today in TN is that in metropolitan life of corporate culture, people are too busy even to take notice of the caste of an individual, let alone take exception for an individual being a brahmin.

• In the official life of public and quasi-public sectors, brahmin workers are becoming less and less in number (with hardly any fresh recruitments of their clan); and where they are in managerial positions, any respect or dislike shown is on account of their position, not caste--and this is the same with any other caste.

• In public, most people interact with brahmin men--as they do with men of any other caste--addressing them as 'sir'. And the concerned brahmin man reciprocates with proper respect, addressing in plural ('vAnga/ennanga' etc). I have seen vegetable vendors, grocers or women floor vendors on the street addressing brahmin women as 'mAmi', out of normal courtesy rather than implying any respect or derision, and these brahmin women reciprocate with appropriate kindness ('ennamma/vAmma', etc). Housemaids in the city address the brahmin women in the home they are employed as 'akka' or 'amma' depending on the age, and the men as 'aNNA', or 'ayyA', again depending on age. And the household brahmin employers in general treat their maids and servants with the normal courtesy extended at the home of other caste people.

In short, I don't think that the general public nourishes any hatred or derision towards the brahmin public because of their caste, religion, cultural identity, or language. So, any suggestions of giving up their identity seems inappropriate--even outlandish to me, and is very likely to earn derision rather than respect. To me the key is not in giving up the caste identity but in keeping it in peaceful co-existence.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

While I don't really want to debate with your on your personal ideas, I like to discuss further, please. I fully understand you are not trying to change anyone's mindset. You have presented a great ideology; but I am not too sure about the presentation.

Raghy brother, I am not talking about judging others like, he is wearing poonool so he must be this or that.

But, I feel you are judging someone when that person likes to wear the poonool when you say

Given this poonool reminds the wearer and others alike of jAti,

.That person may not be thinking about any caste based supremacy at all. He may be wearing that poonool just out of habit; without that poonool he may feel naked ( I used to swim a lot. When I dive head first, so many times the poonool would slip off; but, i would feel it the second I come up for air; then I would go back to the depth to retrieve it). Let us leave the poonool alone. In fact, there may be persons who would continue to wear it to show respect for his parents too since they initiated that poonool. But, i don't really want to continue on this grounds. I am not interested in arguing. I just like to show a different point of view and different possibilities too. Moreover, unlike olden days, people seldom walks around 'topless' showing off their poonool. Yes, they have it in the temples; but when you notice, the NB priest in the temple often wear poonool too. ( I noticed that in Kumbakonam and in Mylapore).
Once I asked a question - "why not conduct Upanayanam to everyone irrespective of the caste?" My point was, while some or many of the persons born in the brahmin community take away the poonool, there could be many more persons born in other castes may love to wear the poonool and follow all the anushtaanams too. Possibilities are there.

Please tell me, does one really need the poonool to revere Vedas and Vedic sages? Do you need the poonool to be pious and God loving?

No. It is the person who revere the vedas and vedic sages, not the poonool. One does not have to have poonool to be pious and God loving. I agree with you.

Gracefully accepting icm is clearly for one's own benefit.

It is very difficult. The socity peer pressure is huge. Even if the parents are willing to accept ICM, still they are required by the society to be seen as opposing. You may not have any society peer pressure; but the same does not apply to a middle class brahmin living in Mylapore/ Thiru anaikka/ Sri Rangam/ Kumbakonam or any such places with large brahmin society congragation.

The benefit is not defined very well either. Love and compassion for what? For the greater humanity? As the member of the family, one would be obliged to seek the benefit of that family first before seeking the benefit of the wider community. If that brahmin has more than one daughter, this dialogue may take place.."பெரிய மகள் சுயநலமா கலப்புக்கல்யாணம் பண்ணிண்டுட்டா ..... அடுத்தவள யார் கேட்கப்ப்போறா? "... Sri. Nara, still this is the reality. If the brahmin family is well to do, if they have all the daughters well educated and well placed in employment, such dialogues may not happen.. still the parents would have to go through peer pressure.

For many brahmin families, குல தெய்வம் would be some amman deity.. they would normally have NB priest in such temples. So, many brahmin families do give importance to temples with NB priests. Of couse, they may not have exclusivityfor such temples.

I will be happy even if one person is motivated to give these ideas some thought. To act or not is up to the individual. If not today, someday, somewhere, a progressive minded person will surely consider these, I think.

Sri. Nara, not just one, but a large number of persons would love to follow the ideals as outlined by you. In fact, you openly voiced it; many of hese persons wouldn't voice such ideas fearing the society peer pressure. தெவசம் பண்ணி வைக்க வாத்யார் வர மாட்டார், தெரியுமோ? Then what ? give up தெவசம் too?

Caste based culture is like a spider web. Most persons are stuck at the middle. Whole thing is too sticky to bring forward a revelution. Kindly think about that too.

I am not trying to debate you down. I am trying to think like a middle class brahmin living at மயிலாப்பூர் நடுத்தெருவு . What would be the suggestion to such a middle class brahmin, please?

Just to think, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Saidevo, thank you for taking the time to respond to me.

Times have changed, Brahmins can no longer openly exhibit their jAti supremacy like they used to. Mutual courtesy and recognition of self-respect of each individual regardless of caste is the order of the day, which is a real achievement of EVR's self-respect movement.

Your argument that caste groups can continue to exist as long as they respect each other is unacceptable to me. Such a separate but equal system was in place in USA and it turned out pretty badly for the Blacks. The Supreme Court later ruled separate, by its very nature, can never be equal. I am not unaware that caste in India is not the same as race in USA. I am not making a broad based comparison, only that the idea that we can all be separate in our caste identities and as long as we respect each other, everything will be fine, is unreasonable, IMO.

One can take the tranquility that exists on the surface of social interactions as indicative of kumbaya. But, all we have to do is scratch the surface and the feeling of resentment towards Brahmins will be seen. Take a look at the newly released movie Shudra The Rising (h/t tb sir -- thanks for posting the link). Brahmins ignore these cultural and social shifts at their own peril.

But all this is besides the point, I was not at all talking about a wholesale change, one in which all Brahmins get together and announce to the world that they have abandoned their caste identity and hope others will do so as well. All I am talking about is, as I have repeatedly stated, the individual, that too one who is reform minded, to consider my suggestions. To say that an individual Brahmin will consider my suggestions only if all caste groups come together and eliminate the caste system is like waiting for the waves to cease to take a dip in the ocean.

Saidevo, I know you will reject each and everyone of my four suggestions, I wouldn't expect anything less from you. But, you are not my target audience, I made that clear at the top. My suggestions are directed towards those who wear the poonool only because that is what Brahmins do. What benefit do these individuals forego if they cast it aside? In my own generation, most of my friends who are Brahmins fall into this category. Literally all my nephews fall into this category. The poonool they wear only reminds them they are Brahmins, nothing more. Let these individuals give a little thought to what I am saying, that is enough.

Please note, these people have already abandoned Brahmin darma, all they are doing is clinging to the symbol that reminds them and others that they are Brahmins. Besides, this is the darma that says the idol in a temple looses its sanctity if an NB enters the garbha gruham, why must these namesake Brahmins support this kind of hateful darma anyway?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

I am trying to think like a middle class brahmin living at மயிலாப்பூர் நடுத்தெருவு . What would be the suggestion to such a middle class brahmin, please?

Dear Raghy if there is such a Brahmin torn between practical reality and his own desire to reject all the hypocrisy, and if he asks me to help him with his predicament -- a whole lot of ifs, we are deep into the realm of wild speculation -- I would ask him to strike a path to total emancipation in stages, ratcheting up to the extent of the changes in his family responsibilities and realities allow, but never fall back, always progress forward.

But I don't believe any of my four suggestions will land even this Mylapore Brahmin into too much of a predicament. Nobody will even come to know of the first two, as you observe, nobody walks around with open chest. icms are getting more and more common, soon not even one icm in a family will become a rarity.

Raghy, you have not commented at all on my second suggestion, namely, refraining from temples in which the mere presence of a Shudra in the Garbha Gruham is enough to make the God vacate the sannidyam from the idol, no matter how knowledgeable, sincere, honest, and pious the Shudra is. I am aware that many B's support amman kovil with NB priests, but that is not what I am talking about.

How many Brahmins do you think are appalled by this retrograde rule that even the best among NBs can't get to go in and perform priestly duties, but the B who happens to have this right by tradition, even if he is the worst among the Bs, is dandy? I personally know of Kanchi Varadaraja temple priests having booze party, not that anything wrong having a drink or two, I prefer Black Label, not JD, but drinking is not something Bs list as an acceptable habit for priests.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Point #10 of the 10-point debate between Rajaji and EVR. For earlier post in this series, please click here.

Point #10:
Rajaji's argument as presented by EVR:
"அரசாங்க விஷயங்களில் ஜாதிப்பேச்சுகள் கூடாதென்றும், ஆனால் மத ஆசார விஷயங்களில் ஜாதி வித்தியாசத்தை ஒழிக்க தாம் போர் புரிவதாயும், ஒருவர் வீராவேசப்பேச்சுக்கள் பேசுகிறார். அரசாங்க விஷயத்திலாவது விஷம முறைகள் அவ்வளவு கேடு விளைவியா. மதாசார சம்பந்தமாய் சாந்தமற்ற முரட்டு முறைகளை பின்தொடர்ந்தால் துவேஷம் அளவு கடந்து பரவி நாட்டில் வேற்றுமையும், பகைமையும், தீமையுமே உண்டாகும்."

EVR's response:
இது ஸ்ரீமான் P. வரதராஜுலு நாயுடுவைக்குறிப்பது. ஜாதி வித்தியாசக் கொடுமையை ராஜீய விஷயத்தில் நுழைத்தால் ஸ்ரீமான்கள் ஸ்ரீனிவாசய்யங்கார், சத்தியமூர்த்தி, ஏ.ரங்கசாமி அய்யங்கார், M.K. ஆச்சாரியார் இவர்கள் "நாடு கெட்டுப்போகும்" என்று சொல்லுகிறார்கள். சமூக மத விஷயத்தில் நுழைத்தால் ஸ்ரீமான் ராஜகோபாலாச்சாரியார் "நாட்டில் தீமை விளைந்துவிடும்" என்று சொல்லுகிறார்.

அப்படியானால் ஸ்ரீமான்கள் வரதராஜுலு நாயிடுவையும், ஈ.வெ.ராமசாமி நாயக்கரையும், S.ராமநாதனையும் இவர்கள் என்னதான் பண்ணச்சொல்கிறார்களோ தெரியவில்லை. ஒரு சமயம் ஸ்ரீமான் திரு.வி.கல்யாணசுந்தர முதலியார்போல் திருகணி பீரங்கியாய் இருக்கச் சொல்லுகிறார்களோ என்னமோ தெரியவில்லை. அப்படி இருந்தால் அவரவர்கள் பத்திரிகைகளுக்குக்கூட வாரம் ஒருமுறை கற்பனைகள் வெளியிடக் கொடுத்து உதவுவார்கள்போல் இருக்கிறது.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara and others.

Nara in post #238:
Take a look at the newly released movie Shudra The Rising (h/t tb sir -- thanks for posting the link). Brahmins ignore these cultural and social shifts at their own peril.

The homepage of the film website shows that the film is based on the infamous 'Aryan Invasion Theory', which stands discredited now, and the film seems to be about atrocities committed on the aboriginals that are imagined for sensationalism rather than evidences from the history of ancient India. Thus the film might be just another attempt at flogging an invisible pink unicorn that is dead.

• It is already being pointed out in comments that the shUdra varNa did not include aboriginals:
Shudra means today’s OBC or 4th Varna and not untouchable i.e. 5th Varna. So, it is changing meaning of words. Changing meaning of words means changing history. How is it possible that director do not know such basic thing?
Upcoming Movie: “Shudra

• This article perhaps explains the varNa system in the right perspective:
VARNA Explained: The Misunderstood and Misused Term of ‘Caste’ System
VARNA Explained: The Misunderstood and Misused Term of ‘Caste’ System | The Chakra News

• If the enterprising and socially/historically/traditionally/natiionally conscious film directors and producers in India, with the same spirit and passion can bring out films about

the Islamic invasion of India documented in Madan's famous book vandArgaL, venRArgaL
Tamil Historical Story - Mathan's Vanthaargal Ventaargal (Ananda Vikadan)
or other such books (as in the Voice of Dharma websites),

or the goa inquisition described in books such as History of Hindu-Christian Encounters by Sita Ram Goel
Pirates in Priest’s Clothing
or the books given here:
media.syndicate: IT HAPPENS ONLY IN INDIA

they would have contributed positively to the Hindu spirit of India.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Raghy, you have not commented at all on my second suggestion, namely, refraining from temples in which the mere presence of a Shudra in the Garbha Gruham is enough to make the God vacate the sannidyam from the idol, no matter how knowledgeable, sincere, honest, and pious the Shudra is.

Your suggestion is right. There should not be any caste based discrimination at the close proximity of God's idol; in fact, that is the first where equality to happen, equality should flow from that point to the rest of the places, i.e, equality emnating from the lotus feet of God's idol. I agree with you 100%.

But, I did not take that subject for commenting. Brahmins make about 3% of the population. NBs make up the rest of the population of 97%. If 3% boycot a practice it may not have any effect; it may not even make a dent. But if 97% of the population boycot, that would have a great impact. Those NBs also know they are not allowed in the santum sanctorum once they completed building it. I remember the dialogue from the movie 'Perunthachan'... " Innala vare gjan oru prithima undaakki; enda kayil ninna vara adhu verum pridhimayaany; innu adhai pradhishtichu; ini gjaan sudhran, adhu thodaam paadilla" ( until yesterday I was sculpting that idol; as long as it was in my hands, it was just a sculpture; today it is (properly) mounted; from now on, I am a sudhran, I should not touch that!). So, I think, question is, why the 97% NBs are not boycoting temples? Secondly, if the Gurukkal or priest is not proved to be " knowledgeable, sincere, honest, and pious", they don't survive in most temples anyway. My theory is this - NBs very well know brahmins are a very small perceentage; in most viillages just a family or two, if that; when they do the pooja, they are sincere, honest and God fearing...and it is easy to keep them on right track.... So, these 97% NBS like to have brahmin priests.

In any case, since I don't think3 % would make any impact, I think this suggestion should be directed to the 97% NBs, please. Just a simple logic. ( I am addressing your rest of the post in a different post).

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear SriNara, Greetings.

( Ragy asked -

I am trying to think like a middle class brahmin living at மயிலாப்பூர் நடுத்தெருவு . What would be the suggestion to such a middle class brahmin, please?

)

Dear Raghy if there is such a Brahmin torn between practical reality and his own desire to reject all the hypocrisy, and if he asks me to help him with his predicament -- a whole lot of ifs, we are deep into the realm of wild speculation -- I would ask him to strike a path to total emancipation in stages, ratcheting up to the extent of the changes in his family responsibilities and realities allow, but never fall back, always progress forward.

If I am not wrong, possibly half this forum may very well fit that above description. They all want to lead a life with love and compassion to the wider humanity. Granted, brahmin community have earned a bad reputation; but the persons born inthat community are not going to wipe that bad reputation away by running away from their own identity. If my wife says I am a lousy husband ( which she does), I can't run away to become a sanyasi with an aim of proving that I am great husband..... I still have to stick around holding the 'husband post' and try hard to get my wife's approval ( வசிஷ்டர் வாயால் பிரம்மரிஷி!). That is exactly what is happening here. If you ask, most members would say they like " to strike a path to total emancipation in stages, ratcheting up to the extent of the changes in his family responsibilities and realities allow, but never fall back, always progress forward". As explained previously, they do have social and socity responsibilities. As it is their life is hard enough; why would they further complicate that with added complications?
But, they would love your ideas. They do need someone outspoken, brutally honest to chart a map; not that they are going to follow that map though... not immediately anyway.

Mostly, Brahmin community is not following any dicriminatory practices. Next social reformer may very well emerge from this community. ( who knows, it could be yourself too. I won't dismiss that possibility). But, any reform should be based on love and inclusive methods. ( I think we are coming towards the conclusion of our little conversation).

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

But, any reform should be based on love and inclusive methods.
Cheers!

Dear Raghy Ji,

Well said..... before any reformer preaches "Love Thy Neighbour"...he should also love himself.
How can a person help another if he despises himself ?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

The ideology suggested byyou is fit for a ஞானி. Everyone worth their salt strives to achieve that. You devised a little formula for yourself to get there; that is very well. But others will have their own little formula too. Mind you, before becoming a ஞானி, one has to 'self-realise'. That has to be the way comfortable for each individual. A person who never had upayanayanam can become a ஞானி too; That is he/she never had a poonool to strat with, leave alone discarding it. Once self-realisation sets in, then caste differences means nothing, religion differences means nothing. For such a person your ICM suggestions would be like childish. I have a feeling, you have to come out of caste feelings too; otherwise you would not have made such a suggestion; in your shoes I would have said " allow your children to marry who they like and bless them!". When one starts completely do away the differences amoung fellow human beings, all these brahmin priest, sudhra priest etc becomes irrelevant. When a person proves his/her heart is pure, such person could instal a dalit priest, the hight caste hindus would accept without any question. Let me give an example - 'hugging saint" is visiting Melbourne - It is on national news. When she is in town, the city stops briefly. She would be visiting every city in Australia; tens of 1000s visit her to get a hug. People see her as a person with pure heart. There is only love and inclusion. Not an iota of hatred against anyone.

I am concluding our little conversation with this unless you like to extend it. Sri. Nara, thanks very much for the discussion . I feel previleged discussing with you. Your ideology is great; but I feel it is wrapped in newspaper. Thanks for the discussion.

( Foot note - I get drunk soon with black label and it is not as smooth as JD! )

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy ji,

I agree with what you had written about the ICM part.
Sometime back someone had told me that Dr Ambedkar was fighting for upliftment of Dalits yet he married a Brahmin and that person viewed Dr Ambedkar negatively for that.

I guess the person failed to understand that when a person harbours no hatred and sees equality everyone is the same to his/her eyes.
So Dr Ambedkar only saw his wife as a woman he loved or not her caste.

I somehow feel this so called encouraging a Brahmin to marry a Non Brahmin just to prove that a person sees all as equal somewhat like doing the Non Brahmin a favor sorts ...this is what makes a Non Brahmin feel discriminated.

If a person is truly having Sama Darshinah he should feel free to marry whoever he loves be it from any community including anyone from his own community cos for him there is only the Caste of Humanity.

A Brahmin marrying a Non Brahmin just to prove a point is like a man marrying a widow and telling her that he is giving her a life and doing her a favour.

Doing someone a favor is not equality...that sums up to discrimination.

 

[Nara]

Dear Raghy,

You are still overlooking the perspective I am coming from. It is not about 3% and 97% etc. It is not about who else is clinging on to the anachronistic and retrograde ideology, it is about each of us, and to what extent we measure up to our own sense of morality. So, arguments like why only Brahmins must change, or if Brahmins alone change they will be laughed at, etc., miss my point.

I am not asking anyone to go out and reform the society, just ourselves, take a look at what each of us believes to be moral, and to what extent we practice it. In this respect, it is my firm opinion that espousing caste identity is inconsistent with what is moral, or in Indian terminology, darma. Unfortunately, Brahminism defines darma on the basis of caste. This is why I think Brahminism is inconsistent with Darma.

The same is true about temples in which the ideology that the sanctity of God cannot be preserved unless NBs are kept a safe distance away is practiced. Yes, there are many NBs who accept this, and many among them also insist that they won't have it any other way. That is their problem, not ours. Each of us will have to examine our own sense of mortality against such inherently supremacist principle. The goal is not impacting the other 97%, not even the other 99.9999999~%, it is about impacting just one person, just the self.

When you say someone who is post-casteism will not see caste I am reminded of the Steven Corbert character claiming he doesn't see race, and that people say he is white and he believes them. Caste in India is the 800 pound gorilla, like race is in the U.S. If somebody says they don't see caste either they are lying or are crazy. Seeing the society as it is, and making moral choices in our own lives does not require pretending caste does not exist, or we are caste-blind, the 800 pound gorilla will still be out there, but at least we are not letting it govern our lives.

What I have proposed are some suggestions, it is not an ideology, adopting them will not make anyone a ஞானி, that would be over promising. I may be a flawed messenger, like an (old) newspaper -- I don't feel that way, and I am sorry you feel that way -- but I hope people won't refuse to consider my suggestions on that count.

Cheers!

p.s. To my taste JD is too harsh, I find JW Black Label very smooth, better than even single malts.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

It seems, our little discussion has not concluded yet. I hope, you don't mind this continuation, please.

I may be a flawed messenger, like an (old) newspaper -- I don't feel that way, and I am sorry you feel that way

It seems, I was not very clear. I said in my previous message "Your ideology is great; but I feel it is wrapped in newspaper.". I did not critise your message; it is great. But only the wrapping, that too, only in my opinion was not suitable to that message. That's why i said I felt it was 'wrapped ' in a newspaper. Just the wrapper, not the message. i did not talk about the messaenger at all!

It is not about who else is clinging on to the anachronistic and retrograde ideology, it is about each of us, and to what extent we measure up to our own sense of morality.

This is the message I meant. Although I don't highlight usually, I do it this time. I like that portion very much. That is what I called 'the great ideology'. In my opinion, it is. When every individual focus on that, attains that, then caste differences don't exist.

Caste in India is the 800 pound gorilla, like race is in the U.S. If somebody says they don't see caste either they are lying or are crazy.

Personally I don't see caste; didn't see caste during my recent trip too. I am not lying; I don't lie. Am I crazy? I don't know. Caste feeling doesn't exist outside; it only exists in our mind. Every individual should fight that gorilla in their own mind. I did very long back. I did not even beat my chest to roar my victory cry... I thought it was just a natural thing to do. We come from very different backgrounds. Not many brahmins had a harijan telling them what to do when they were young.

....it is my firm [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]opinion[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] that espousing caste identity is inconsistent with what is moral, or in Indian terminology, darma. Unfortunately, Brahminism defines darma on the basis of caste. This is why I think Brahminism is inconsistent with Darma.

When I was about 20, I noticed a commotion in my village. By the time I got there, one unfortunate guy got beaten. the aggressor was a Naicker youngster. The victim was a harijan. The reason was caste-based. That harijan was beaten because he rode his cycle in that street holding his head high. That was all! That victim shared workplace with me. So, naturally, he took refuge with me; I stood up for him. In this small incident, brahminism was followed by the Naicker youth against a harijan; a brahmin boy stopped any further brahminism happening. The word 'brahminism' was coined to put brahmin caste in a difficult situation. I request you not to use that term anymore, please. It confuses most brahmins; they think that the simple acts like 'sandhyavandhanam', everyday poojas, maintaining their anushtaanam as 'brahminism'. 'Brahmin habits' are taken as 'brahminism'. Shall we not confuse the forum anymore, please?

Each of us will have to examine our own sense of mortality against such inherently supremacist principle. The goal is not impacting the other 97%, not even the other 99.9999999~%, it is about impacting just one person, just the self.

This is about temple worship. There was a time I was visiting temples. I did not go to any sanctum sanctorum; I was not invited either. I hear your suggestion; don't get me wrong. I can understand the merit in that suggestion. But I will not ask someone else to do it. It boils down to personal choices. Yes, we should talk against such barbaric practices; we should encourage changes from such practices. If we don't go there at all, how can we even voice our opinions? ஏரி மேல் கோபித்துக் கொண்டு போன கதையாகக் கூடாதல்லவா?

What I have proposed are some suggestions, it is not an ideology, adopting them will not make anyone a ஞானி

Yes, it will. A ஞானி is a soft, down to earth person who can view everone equally, who can impart love and compassion to everyone. A gnani does not have know adhwaitham, does not have to know veda & vedangam, does not have to know logic and arguments. He/she is a simple person approachable by everyone. He/she does not have to perform any miracles; the peace of mind they could offer others is the miracle for the receipients.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

It seems, our little discussion has not concluded yet. I hope, you don't mind this continuation, please.

Dear Raghy, before we can agree to disagree we have to agree on what we are saying. I have a nagging feeling there is a gap between what my position is and what you are disagreeing with. This is the reason for my last response.

The word 'brahminism' was coined to put brahmin caste in a difficult situation. I request you not to use that term anymore, please. It confuses most brahmins; they think that the simple acts like 'sandhyavandhanam', everyday poojas, maintaining their anushtaanam as 'brahminism'. 'Brahmin habits' are taken as 'brahminism'. Shall we not confuse the forum anymore, please?

Sorry Raghy I can't make this promise. What Brahminism includes is something Brahmins must realize, I am not willing to play the three monkeys of see-no-evil, etc.

peace!

p.s. let our conversation serve as a reminder to everyone that it is not impossible to have a civil exchange.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

I have been silent, allowing the conversation between you and Sri Raghy Ji continue.

But then, you said the above:

p.s. let our conversation serve as a reminder to everyone that it is not impossible to have a civil exchange.

I don't see any difference between your conversation with Sri Raghy Ji and what many of us attempted to have with you.

While you often dismissed a lot of conversational points we made as 'personal', it is quite interesting to see the same comments in fact (sprinkled with sugar and indirect) are not only accepted but the whole conversation is held up as a model.

While I agree that you two are having what you call as a conversation with a 'civil language', I have to disagree on your part of what you consider as 'uncivil language'.

I do agree that some personal attacks on you were made (which I keep moderating on), you making such a general statement to the Forum is not at all civil. You make a blanket statement, same way you make general statements about the community. Sorry, I just can not state this any better without citing 'you'.

Sri Raghy made a comment about Nazism, which was not commented on. You usually view this comparison as onus, and yet you have without hesitation (but with some escape rules) state that casteism is like racism in America!

Again, to have a 'civilized' conversation one needs to have it from both sides. It seems to me that when you make comments about the community, you use some incendiary words (which I have already outlined before) and tend to view the countering comments as 'uncivilized'. If you notice, Sri Raghy also see these words as negatives, and the only difference I can see is that others do not say 'please' in front of their sentences!

I am writing this post, because I do not think that you realize this dichotomy.

This is not by any means to offend you.

Regards,
KRS