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Social Justice in Hinduism

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A request:

Shri KRS ji,

If any part of my postings are considered hurtful, please delete it.

Shri Nara ji,

Somehow i suspect that as this discussion comes along, it wud not lead to anything fruitful.


Hello HappyHindu:

Greetings and best wishes to you.

My views can be disconcerting, but I do not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. From the tone of your post I think I might have done just that. For this I tender my unconditional apology.

I will make just a few points for the purpose of clarifying any misunderstanding and summarizing what I have said so far. After this I shall leave it to the members to reflect on the issues and come to their own conclusions.

[1] Mimamsa
My only issue here is the suggestion that Vedantees reject Poorva Mimamsa. If this is not so, then I have no problem. Otherwise, for followers of Sanatana Dharma the entire Vedas is sacred and true. Since Vedantees are interested only in Brhman and Moksha they spend their time and energy studying Uttra Mimamsa. This does not mean they reject Poorva Mimamsa as though it is untrue or invalid. Uttra Mimamsa is after all the end of the Vedas or the essence of what the Vedas are supposed to teach. Therefore, a pure Uttra Mimamsaka who rejects even the very validity of Poorva Mimamsa is a contradiction in terms. This is true irrespective how many dhandas the sanyasees of the school carry, one or three. This is not my opinion or POV.

[2] Varna/Jati
From Manu Smrithi, which is accepted as the foremost of pramanas besides Vedas by Brahmins, and Srimat BG, there is no question that Varna and Jati are one and the same. This is not my opinion, it is a fact. That is what is in practice as well today.

[3] Social Justice
In my opinion, here it is just my opinion, many changes are required to achieve social justice in our society. One of the important changes is the eradication of Varna/Jati. This must start from the Brahmnical order. They must reject the Varna/Jati system outright. They must do this because it is the right thing to do. The government continuing to use Jati for whatever reasons, or other Jatis practicing it, must not stop the Brahmnical community from doing the right thing.

Cheers!
 
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Nara,

Hello HappyHindu:

Greetings and best wishes to you.

My views can be disconcerting, but I do not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. From the tone of your post I think I might have done just that. For this I tender my unconditional apology.

I will make just a few points for the purpose of clarifying any misunderstanding and summarizing what I have said so far. After this I shall leave it to the members to reflect on the issues and come to their own conclusions.

[1] Mimamsa
My only issue here is the suggestion that Vedantees reject Poorva Mimamsa. If this is not so, then I have no problem. Otherwise, for followers of Sanatana Dharma the entire Vedas is sacred and true. Since Vedantees are interested only in Brhman and Moksha they spend their time and energy studying Uttra Mimamsa. This does not mean they reject Poorva Mimamsa as though it is untrue or invalid. Uttra Mimamsa is after all the end of the Vedas or the essence of what the Vedas are supposed to teach. Therefore, a pure Uttra Mimamsaka who rejects even the very validity of Poorva Mimamsa is a contradiction in terms. This is true irrespective how many dhandas the sanyasees of the school carry, one or three. This is not my opinion or POV.

The uttaramimansakas simply have no use for the karmakanda, hence, they do not follow it. No question of considering something valid or invalid.

Wud be glad if you could let me know of any ekadandi tradition (not those belonging to the Shankara mutts) that follows the karmakanda. (it wud help someone do some compilation).



[2] Varna/Jati
From Manu Smrithi, which is accepted as the foremost of pramanas besides Vedas by Brahmins, and Srimat BG, there is no question that Varna and Jati are one and the same. This is not my opinion, it is a fact. That is what is in practice as well today.

If you do wish you can ask ekadandis / dasanamis (non-shankara ones) and find out if they share your view. Apart from that i hv no comments.

[3] Social Justice
In my opinion, here it is just my opinion, many changes are required to achieve social justice in our society. One of the important changes is the eradication of Varna/Jati. This must start from the Brahmnical order. They must reject the Varna/Jati system outright. They must do this because it is the right thing to do. The government continuing to use Jati for whatever reasons, or other Jatis practicing it, must not stop the Brahmnical community from doing the right thing.

Not sure why you wish for the purvamimansa based brahmanical mutts to reject varna-Jati. It is their understanding and they are entitled to it as much as a uttaramimansaka vedantin who does not consider varan-jati the same.

Imho, its not right for anyone to interfere with other's way of life. Whatever happens, happens "in time".


Cheers!

if you wish to continue this discussion further, i earnestly request you to discuss this further with Shri KRS ji.
 
The Truth about Untouchability and Social Justice

In the modern day, no one from any community anywhere in the world is going to let into his home and hearth, hobos, filthy stinking hiippies, drug addicts, known sex offenders, terrorists, known criminals and other undesirables. In ancient times, similarly, undesirables were kept out of polite society as mlechchas and avarnas. But, if they reformed, they were allowed in. For example, dvijas have to bathe at least twice a day before prayers. But, many avarnas, as did even Westerners until the soap company ads dinned bathing regularly into their heads, bathed few times in their lives. Could you let such unclean people into a temple? Such exclusion was no more than common social stratification. Stratification has existed in every society everywhere in the world- it frequently is based on money. It happens in the US, in the UK- just everywhere.

British officials in India, made so much noise about untouchability. Even today, if a British PM, from the House of Commons, visits the House of Lords to hear the Queen's Inagural Address, he has to stand, in the back rows, as a commoner. Is this not social exclusion? Is this any better than untouchability? There have been mistakes made by the caste system; true; but the majority of the problem is only from its politicisation. Not due to its invention and adoption by a tiny minority of Brahmans 50 centuries ago. Above all, the implementation and enforcement of casteist practices, has always been at the hands of the ruling and moneyed classes. Brahmans have always been a microscopic minority to enforce anything, and have lived only in their closed scholastic and liturgical circles. Due to the politicisation, we only get bashed for it for no reason. And due to our spinelessness and lack of unity, we take it lying down.

The Shastras require us to perform far more charitable works, than any other religion does. An unknown traveler can merely appear at your door and expect to be treated as an honored guest.

Note also that the Varna Dharma and the Ashrama Dharmas were both fluid, decided by merit, not mere birth. Example- killing Drona in kurukshetra didn't cause Dhristadhyumna Brama Hatya Dosha. The Varna Dharma became set in stone, mainly due to the repeated invasions of North West India. The ancients felt the need to insulate themselves to preserve their identity and started endogamy within the community.

Neither was the original Varna system something uncommon, nor were our ancestors solely responsible for its ills.

For myself, I have had a number of Christian and Dalit friends and have shared my food (and theirs) with them. These are people that have long ceased to be the undesirables kept out by the Varna system. Now, if I find a unhygenic or morally repugnant person born a Brahman, I would sooner keep him out of my home, than any of these normal people. This was the original intent of the Varna Dharma.

Social justice was practically invented in our Shastras as they predate any Abrahamic theology. I laugh at any Westerner or X-tian who tries to preach to me about "his religion's" social justice.
 
Dear Sri Jamadagneya Ji,

With all due respect, you are missing the point.

Untouchability is not about a person not taking a bath. It is much more than that. Do you mean to say that all so called untouchables never took a bath? Don't you think that if they did not, it was up to the 'dwija' to show them the way? Instead we all, the four varnas did not care much about them. And this is the truth.

Yes, our religion may have the most 'adithi' treatment code of all religions, but what use is it, when almost 20% of our brethren are the 'dalits'?

Please do not drag other religions here. Unless we admit that we have a problem, it is no use. By the way, I see the so called 'Abrahamic religions' have no trouble collecting tithes for their causes, while we can not even agree to throw in some money to help our own poor. Who are we kidding?

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Srimathi HH Ji and Sri Nara Ji,

I read with interest both of your postings.

One thing is clear to me. That is Sri Nara Ji has made up his mind on certain things about our community:

1. That all brahmins follow the Manu Smrithi which no Acharyals would condemn.
2. So our community is mostly responsible for the untouchability.
3. There is no difference between Jathi and Varna.

Let me take the last one first. As I said before and as I say again, your interpretations of the slokas from Gita are a very tiny minority view. I have read several versions of Gita and I am yet to come across your interpretations. It reminds me of our friend, Kancha Illaiah, who wrote 'I am not a Hindu' saying that the Brahmins denied the dalits the fruits of their labour evidenced by Gita saying that one is not entitled to one's fruits of labour!

Till the British unearthed and dusted of Manu Smrithi, no one has heard of it. Probably some of the strictures there in seeped in to our customs. But regarding untaouchability, it was not the brahmins alone who drove the behaviour of the society.

I do not think any change can be brought about by telling a whole community that they are wrong. I think our community is mostly populated by decent people. As every other Jathi in India, they do not know what has hit them. We got colonized, our village life got disrupted, we got jobs, we moved out of the villages, yet we have our Jathi. So, it is natural that our orthodoxy is trying to save the 'traditions' as much as possible.

Over time this will happen. In the mean time, we need to help out on the evolution than a revolution.

The difference between Sri Nara Ji and me is very simple. He wants revolution today. I want evolution over time.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Venkatramani Ji,
In my opinion, charity begins at home. As long as the Indian governments discriminate against the forward communities, you need to take care of ours first.

Senator Kennedy's realm is the US, where we do not have quotas (well, sort of, but that is a different topic).

My opening of this thread pertains to only the Hindus' responsibility towards the dalts in the social arena.

As I see it, our priority is to take care of our own deserving first and then take care of those from the dalit community who will succed in the program. I think, others have their own advocates.

Regards,
kRS
Thanks smt.happy hindu ji,

My point is should we attempt to lift the entire people including all the communities or shall we restrict our service only for TB community. Peronally I am nearing my retirement age and along with some of my friends, we are starting a school on charitable basis. Our broad consensus are - capital expenditure will be met through donations and revenue expenditure will be on self financing basis. The school is open for all the communities irrespective of religion/caste.

We may offer certain percentage of seats (say 10 or 20%) on free basis to poor & deserving students. Should we restrict these free seats to only TB community or should we offer the same to all irrespective of caste/religion.

Sri KRS ji started the thread stating that Late Edward Kennedy has contributed to social justice as per Catholic tradition. We are going to help all the communities without discrimination offering best quality education at the lowest possible cost.

However should we offer the absolute free portion only to TB community or for all? After reading Sri KRS ji's posting, I am little bit confused. Please help me with the best possible answer.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே
 
Dear Sri Jamadagneya Ji,

With all due respect, you are missing the point.

Untouchability is not about a person not taking a bath. It is much more than that. Do you mean to say that all so called untouchables never took a bath? Don't you think that if they did not, it was up to the 'dwija' to show them the way? Instead we all, the four varnas did not care much about them. And this is the truth.

Yes, our religion may have the most 'adithi' treatment code of all religions, but what use is it, when almost 20% of our brethren are the 'dalits'?

Please do not drag other religions here. Unless we admit that we have a problem, it is no use. By the way, I see the so called 'Abrahamic religions' have no trouble collecting tithes for their causes, while we can not even agree to throw in some money to help our own poor. Who are we kidding?

Regards,
KRS


You missed my main point. Untouchability started as a method to purge undesirables (not just the unclean), and as a defence against foreign interlopers.

The problem, is PRETENDED by DK-DMK-SP to be a Brahman problem- it is not. Tell me, when did Brahmans play gatekeepers and blocked avarnas from civilizing. Do you personally know that civilized avarnas were still blocked from polite society? No, that was not the case. Sankara, Ramanuja, Shankar Dev, Madhva, Raghavendra, Sadasiva-- all were known as social emancipators too. And all were dvijas, if not vipras. Please let us stick to facts and the history books. Not media fuel thrown out by the govt.

My point are that untouchability is merely stratification; that it is not a Brahman created problem; that it is not any worse than other forms of stratification in other countries. Politicization of the issue has given it, the present color.

Addressing untouchability is the same as socio-economic emancipation of any poor and rural peoples. Where are the greatest concentrations of avarnas in India? Precisely in poor, illiterate tribal and dalit populated areas. Emancipate them educationally and financially and the so-called untouchability problem resolves itself. How is this any different from emancipating, say, the African poor? Seeing this any other way is merely drinking the pseudo-secular aka Hindu bashing coolaid of the congress govt.

The state has failed to do this emancipation. Not the Brahman community.

Why should Brahmans take the whip for this? Why? Why?
 
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Inspite of Dravidian parties ruling in Tamilnadu for more than four decades, two tumbler system prevails in certain areas. Definitely Brahmins didn't tell the tea shop owner to practice two tumbler system. Tomorrow even if a Brahmin goes and requests the tea shop owner to abolish two tumbler system, definitely he will not listen.

I have seen in my younger days where dalits will not enter agraharam. Now practically agraharams are the thing of the past. But still dalits face discrimination in villages where as Brahmins have vocated villages.

It only shows that Dravidian parties have their own agenda when it comes to Dalit discrimination. Probably to hide or divert the issue, they do Brahmin bashing
 
Precisely. Brahman bashing is a politically expeditious dishonest move.

Emancipation of the poor, ill literate and down-trodden is the lot of ALL formerly colonised nations.

75% of the rural areas in TN do not have any significant Brahman population. Pujaris run the temples, usually a non-Agamic ayyanar or mariamma temple. And there is rampant casteism there. Were we ever there, playing gatekeepers? Did we do this?

Is untouchability any different from the racism of the West? The Brits are even now overtly racist. There are parts of the Deep South in the US, where non-whites are still not safe. How many whites in the US today, have a good cross-section of black friends, and not just in Hollywood movies starring Morgan Freeman? Can we ever forget the "Indians and Dogs not allowed" signs of the Raj? Why should we be made to feel so much more guilty about an evil that is prevalent in many more countries?

This is merely politicisation of the issue and victimization of the voiceless Brahmans. I think Tamil Brahmans deserve this rap, because they never rose up en masse against it.
 
to All: The real was caused by the cinima which started teaching the Dalith and untouchable etc, because we the TB's are front runners in all fields,to pull them the so called modern thinkers of draviden's influnced thier views in the celluoid world. When I was a small boy I have seen the village chief was a gounder and all others will remove their chapple and bend to wards to wish him,in the village the population was mearl y200 hundred and only 1 street was for Brahmins. Eg even I was witnessd one of the Dallit leader was a Railway minister and I myself and my frient went his house to meet him(frient was a dallit and related to the minister) ,the secuirty person asked us to remove our shoes and cap(winter cap) the Temp of the day was 5 dig cen, when the minister PA called us and told us that we should use only Hindi and very feable voice,while return we should not show our back to the minister, for a dallit the rule applicable why not for others, the dalillit leaders once came to power they become upper and they treat their own one as untauchable. The untouchablelity was a tool for geting Vote only.MK's family members married only rich other community girls or rich girls from so called dallits. The reservation system should go from the country. There is no evidence that untouchablity was brought by Brahmins. We must raise our voice againt the propaganda about TB's. s.r.k.
 
This was the original intent of the Varna Dharma.

Wow! The original intent explained!!

Sadly, much time is spent on (i) how great Brahminism is, and (ii) how much Brahmins are being victimized today; not a whole lot of self reflection on the reasons. How come Brahmins are uniformly blamed? Take a minute to look outside, at the intelligentsia outside the Brahmin circle. There, the concept of Brahminism is reviled.

The knee-jerk response to this among most Brahmins is blame anything else but themselves and their much loved practice of Brahminism.

Cheers!
 
Somehow,finally I tend(likely) to agree with what Nara is saying, which reflects, Brahmanas and our 'ISMS" could be perceived great amongst 1 billion Indians, but then, how many newtons, einsteins and nobel prizes grabbed on yearly basis,which,only tells us, that there is an illusionary clutch, we are still holding on like an eagle perch,while seeing the world moving ahead in a faster pace
 
Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

Please permit me one more respose!

Let me take the last one first. As I said before and as I say again, your interpretations of the slokas from Gita are a very tiny minority view.

I just quoted the BG verses. I did not offer any interpretation. Please show me why papayoni is not related to birth. Just look at the verses and make your own mind up without looking at interpretations offered by people with agendas.

Till the British unearthed and dusted of Manu Smrithi, no one has heard of it.

This is just not true. Parimelazhagar urai of Thirukkural is full of references to Manu Smrithi showing clearly the popularity of Manu Smirhti as late as the thirteenth century. A quick review of Tamil literature will show that Manu smrithi is held with the utmost reverence all along.

... it was not the brahmins alone who drove the behaviour of the society.


I never claimed they were solely responsible for untouchability. Since this is a forum for Brahmins I am asking that they face up to their responsibility and make amends.

Over time this will happen. In the mean time, we need to help out on the evolution than a revolution.

Yes it will happen, but sadly it will not happen because of enlightened leadership from the Brahmin community. It will happen because of the unstoppable change ushered in by modernity making the endogamy a thing of the past much to the consternation of Barhmin traditionalists.

Cheers!
 
Till the British unearthed and dusted of Manu Smrithi, no one has heard of it. KRS

Its the joke of the millenia, and I couldnt control my laughter, and am still wondering how people could be this opportunistic to win the support of forum members, by blaming every thing on the british, who were only so keen on looting India.
 
Inspite of Dravidian parties ruling in Tamilnadu for more than four decades, two tumbler system prevails in certain areas. Definitely Brahmins didn't tell the tea shop owner to practice two tumbler system.

Should we ban DVD-R,to stop piracy? Recording industry did'nt target petty piracy shops, but ensured, that, the top banners to come out in public to say 'No To Piracy'. ITC was asked to print in bold 'Smoking Causes Cancer' but not the beedi companies. NARA is perfectly right in asking Brahmins to take the lead in shedding the caste.
 
Should we ban DVD-R,to stop piracy? Recording industry did'nt target petty piracy shops, but ensured, that, the top banners to come out in public to say 'No To Piracy'. ITC was asked to print in bold 'Smoking Causes Cancer' but not the beedi companies. NARA is perfectly right in asking Brahmins to take the lead in shedding the caste.

Why do you want to divert my question about two tumbler system. If you and Nara wants to shed the caste, it is alright. You don't have to tell me to do it.
 
Why do you want to divert my question about two tumbler system. If you you and Nara wants to shed the caste, it is alright. You don't have to tell me to do it.

I suggest, please read KRS first post and he is perfectly right in initiating this talk with right sense, with a positive note, for every ones welfare, interms of this modern compelling society. Dont make us as another endangered species of tomorrow,with your crude thoughts.
 
Still I don't have the answer for two tumbler system. You are conveniently trying to divert the issue.

We are in top order right, and once we didnt even allow them to walk in the same lane and Two tumbler is not that bad comparatively, after all we are responsible for this percolation. Lets understand the realities, than pricking pins and points
 
We are in top order right, and once we didnt even allow them to walk in the same lane and Two tumbler is not that bad comparatively, after all we are responsible for this percolation. Lets understand the realities, than pricking pins and points

If two tumbler is not bad, then I don't want to argue with you. You are only having crude thoughts
 
Venkatramani, please read my post again, and understand the sense and message in my post. Dont pick lines in between.
 
Nara,

I just quoted the BG verses. I did not offer any interpretation. Please show me why papayoni is not related to birth. Just look at the verses and make your own mind up without looking at interpretations offered by people with agendas.

a possible "interpretation" from you was possibly presented from this viewpoint i suppose, that varnas are determined by birth as per in shlokas 33 and 34 of chapter 9.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. But let me point out that the great law giver Manu and even Lord Sri Krishna are on my side. Manu describes in excruciating detail the Varna of off-springs arising out of union between different Varnas, Lord Sri Krishna does not leave any doubt that the four Varnas are determined by birth in Shlokas 33 and 34 of chapter 9 of Srimat Bhagavath Geetha.

so here are the shlokas 33 and 34 without an interpretation, just translation (and also shloka 32 on the papayoni part) (you too can make up your mind without looking at interpretations offered by people):

Shloka 32:

|| mam hi partha vyapasritya ye ’pi syuh papa-yonayah striyo vaishyas tatha shudras te ’pi yanti param gatim ||

Maam – me.
Hi – certainly.
Partha – Arjuna.
Vyapashritya – taking shelter, surrender
Yepi – they also
Syuh – are
papayonah – born from sin
Striyo – women
Vaishyas – merchants
Tatha – and
Shudras – serfs
Tepi – they too
Yanti – attain
Param – supreme
Gatim – goal

Shloka 33:

|| kim punar brahmanah punya bhakta rajarsayas tatha anityam asukham lokam imam prapya bhajasva mam ||

kim = how
punar = again
brahmanah = brahmanah
punya = pious
bhakta = devotees
rajarsayas = of raja rishis
tatha = thus
anityam = temporary
asukham = without happiness
lokam = world
imam = this
prapya = get, beget
bhajasva = worship
mam = me

Shloka 34:

|| man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru mam evaishyasi yuktvaivam atmanam mat-parayanah ||

man-mana = in the mind of the mind
bhava = be, become
mad-bhakto = my devotee
mad-yaji = my worshipper
mam = me
namaskuru = pray, offer obeisance
mam = me
evaishyasi = to come
yuktvaivam = become absorbed
atmanam = the atma
mat-parayanah = attached or devoted to me


Regards and best wishes.
 
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Dear Sri Jamadagneya Ji,

My response below in 'blue'. I took some time to respond, as this is a very controversial topic and I want to make sure that my reponse is not viewed as 'anti brahmin'. But since your response contains so many untruths at so many different levels, I figured I should respond.


You missed my main point. Untouchability started as a method to purge undesirables (not just the unclean), and as a defence against foreign interlopers.
Sir, the 'untouchables' have been in our socirty long before any 'foreign' interlopers. Most agree that it probably started when the 'locals' who were subjugated, who could not be amenable to 'culture' and who followed a free lifestyle were banished to live outside the enclaves. This happened even before the advent of Dharma Shastras (300 AD to 300 BC) and there have been mention of these folks even in our Upanishads.

Then came the rigid caste system by birth, and the banishment according to the Shastras (there were many, based on the school of thought), of the 'Chandalas'; those who were excommunicated because an upper caste woman married/begot children by marrying a lower caste man.

Next, came the period when certain people following certain trades (leather makers, butchers, cremators etc.) were banished as the rites of 'purity' were propounded in the Shastras, especially the Manu Smrithi. Well, by this time, it is not about a person not taking a bath. It is about the Smrithi saying that if a 'Chandala' enters a temple, the grounds have to be purified with cow urine! (I can go on and on with many citations that would shock some of our readers).

Who wrote these Shastras and Smritis?

The problem, is PRETENDED by DK-DMK-SP to be a Brahman problem- it is not. Tell me, when did Brahmans play gatekeepers and blocked avarnas from civilizing. Do you personally know that civilized avarnas were still blocked from polite society? No, that was not the case. Sankara, Ramanuja, Shankar Dev, Madhva, Raghavendra, Sadasiva-- all were known as social emancipators too. And all were dvijas, if not vipras. Please let us stick to facts and the history books. Not media fuel thrown out by the govt.
Sir, we were once the custodians of the Hindu culture. Why did we not 'pull up' others as Swami Vivekananda asks? Sir no one listened to Ramanuja's ideas, after he attained Samadhi. (I do not think Adi Shankara, as much as I admire him, did have enough time for social emancipation - even the chandala story in His biography, I think is inserted). Please read the following:
Shastras

So, sir, will you please stick to the fact and not repeat what these rabid Hindutva fellows are telling?

My point are that untouchability is merely stratification; that it is not a Brahman created problem; that it is not any worse than other forms of stratification in other countries. Politicization of the issue has given it, the present color.
I have already punctured your myth above. Let us call it what it is. In the name of Varnashrama Dharma, we have allowed and religiously sanctioned others in our religion to mistreat a sizeable segment of a population without any humanity. And till today, not withstanding your protests, this continues, especially in a lot of Tamil Brahmin households.

Addressing untouchability is the same as socio-economic emancipation of any poor and rural peoples. Where are the greatest concentrations of avarnas in India? Precisely in poor, illiterate tribal and dalit populated areas. Emancipate them educationally and financially and the so-called untouchability problem resolves itself. How is this any different from emancipating, say, the African poor? Seeing this any other way is merely drinking the pseudo-secular aka Hindu bashing coolaid of the congress govt.
Pray tell how does this 'emancipation' can come when even today they are socially ostracized just because of their birth? The difference between any poor and these folks is that about 75% of the dwijas look down upon them as 'unworthy' human beings. Please do not refer to any other country's problems. I do not care about how other countries treat some of their citizens, to justify our actions. We are supposed to have a superior culture. There is Hindu bashing on this, which is very justifiable, irrespective of who is doing the bashing.
The state has failed to do this emancipation. Not the Brahman community.
Even today, many of my relatives (who all I love dearly) still hold these superstition based ideas on how to treat Shudras and Paraiahs. And I have to agree with Sri Nara here that most of our religious maths associated with Brahmins have not done much to address this problem. So your denial flies stark in the face of reality.

Why should Brahmans take the whip for this? Why? Why?
Because, because, because, in not a distant too long ago, we wrote the societal laws that made and continued this odious practice based on superstition and in someways continue it in some fashion today.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Sri Nara Ji,
My response in 'blue':

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

Please permit me one more respose!

I just quoted the BG verses. I did not offer any interpretation. Please show me why papayoni is not related to birth. Just look at the verses and make your own mind up without looking at interpretations offered by people with agendas.
Sir, I thought the most controversial verse in Gita about Varna by birth is Ch 4, Verse 13 and not the one you have cited. I was surprised and did some research and it seems a controversy came about by the founder of Hare Krishna movement's translation of this verse.

However, after reading it several times, I tend to conclude that a comma was missed after 'papayoni', thus some folks taking it as an adjective, rather than a noun. I think the verse is referring to different social categories then existed that were considered powerless, and lower in social strata, viz., wretched, women, sudhras and vaishyas. This is the first time I am hearing Vaishyas hailing from the sinful yoni per your categorization; because they are part of dwijas. Also in the previous verse, the Bhagawan addresses Arjuna as 'Son of Kunti'. So, I do not think that the adjective applies to all women either. So I think your interpretation is wrong.

This is just not true. Parimelazhagar urai of Thirukkural is full of references to Manu Smrithi showing clearly the popularity of Manu Smirhti as late as the thirteenth century. A quick review of Tamil literature will show that Manu smrithi is held with the utmost reverence all along.
Well I partly agree. However, my stance is not that a few people in our community are not following the general ideas expressed in the Smrithi. But rather they are following a tradition that was handed down with superstion and do not have any 'culmissiom' in their hearts. My mom still does not eat in front of 'sudhras', but feeds them first. I love her and I suppose you love your elders who are like that too. What is going to be accomplished by condemning their practices today? I am not like her. So the change will occur with generations.

I never claimed they were solely responsible for untouchability. Since this is a forum for Brahmins I am asking that they face up to their responsibility and make amends.
As much as I am not responsible for the sins of my forefathers, I am not going to do any special amends on their behalf.

Yes it will happen, but sadly it will not happen because of enlightened leadership from the Brahmin community. It will happen because of the unstoppable change ushered in by modernity making the endogamy a thing of the past much to the consternation of Barhmin traditionalists.
Sir, things are changing on an evolutionary basis. Only love changes hearts. No revolution based on violence and compulsion ever succeeded.

Just my two cents.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri esarkey Ji,
My response in 'blue':
to All: The real was caused by the cinima which started teaching the Dalith and untouchable etc, because we the TB's are front runners in all fields,to pull them the so called modern thinkers of draviden's influnced thier views in the celluoid world. When I was a small boy I have seen the village chief was a gounder and all others will remove their chapple and bend to wards to wish him,in the village the population was mearl y200 hundred and only 1 street was for Brahmins. Eg even I was witnessd one of the Dallit leader was a Railway minister and I myself and my frient went his house to meet him(frient was a dallit and related to the minister) ,the secuirty person asked us to remove our shoes and cap(winter cap) the Temp of the day was 5 dig cen, when the minister PA called us and told us that we should use only Hindi and very feable voice,while return we should not show our back to the minister, for a dallit the rule applicable why not for others, the dalillit leaders once came to power they become upper and they treat their own one as untauchable.
Sir, now you know how we traeted the dalits!
The untouchablelity was a tool for geting Vote only.MK's family members married only rich other community girls or rich girls from so called dallits. The reservation system should go from the country.
Yes, I agree somewhat.
There is no evidence that untouchablity was brought by Brahmins.
Who are you kidding? Sir, have you not read our Dharma Shastras and Manu Smriti?
We must raise our voice againt the propaganda about TB's.
What propaganda?
s.r.k.
 
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