Social Justice in Hinduism

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Nara Ji,

The reason I am haggling about what Gita says is that it is considered not just as a Smriti but rather a part of our Srutis. To my knowledge, there is nothing in our Srutis that says that Varna is by being born in to a family practicing a varna. 'Varna by birth' is misleading, as our forefathers divided the human beings in to four broad EQUAL categories during the genesis of our society. It never would have been followed by people for such a long time, if it was a hierarchical, power graded system.

But over time, it has degenerated in to what it is today. No one is denying that, at least not me.

But to twist what our Srutis say to support your theory that somehow this inequity was embedded in our Srutis is not acceptable to me. I can see how these odious concepts crept in to our Smritis over time. That is a different story.

'Yoni' is 'source from/of''. One can read it the way you want. Also, it does not dictate the varna system to be so, but rather from the sociological context existed then. But as I have said, your interpretation is not correct.

'Iranian Revolution' happened because a nation of people had decided to throw out a dictatorship. This is why I said, show me a 'revolution' where a minority wanting drastic changes in the majority accomplished that without violence.What you are proposing is for an entire people change over night, just because you think it is 'just'.I can not deny the part it is just, but I can not foresee the part where such a change in attitude/life style will happen overnight.

My conscience is clear. I am not for jathis and as I have stated elsewhere, varna system is passe' and it is not fit for today's life.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Singleliner]

'Iranian Revolution' happened because a nation of people had decided to throw out a dictatorship. This is why I said, show me a 'revolution' where a minority wanting drastic changes in the majority accomplished that without violence.
KRS

Why quote Iran! If minorities(religious) in India could get and implement what they want,in a collective manner, through peaceful means, why not this could also be achieved ? Minorities do have the power.

The question here is, does the majority opinion among the community,really wish that to do so? If so, there could be lots of means and ways. But if you one things it will happen naturally as time goes by, then, saying goes, 'Left to themselves, things will go from Bad to Worse".. Thats murphy's law.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri singleliner Ji,

My response about Iranian Revolution is a retort to Sri Nara's citation of it.

Discrimination based on jathi is illegal in India. And since independence public intercourse has become more and more non jathi related.So, jathi over time will disapper, even without any concerted effort against it.

The issue here is whether the 'Brahmins' should abandon the jathi system and declare there are no jathis and every brahmin should apologize to all other jathis. I am contending this is a pipe dream. Do you think, this can be accomplished - in our generation, in the next generation, or in the future?

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

The reason I am haggling about what Gita says is that it is considered not just as a Smriti but rather a part of our Srutis.

This is begging the question. You can't claim the truth of your conclusion by including it in your premise. Sruti or Smrithi, based on birth or not, Varna is still a supremacist hierarchical system and must be dumped. It is like the "Separate but equal" ideology that existed in the U.S. educational system. Separate is inherently unequal, it cannot be equal.

'Iranian Revolution' happened because a nation of people had decided

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Now you are telling me why that revolution took place. Well, fine. This is not important because I am not advocating any kind of revolution, violent or otherwise. Change is already happening. In my own family the marriages among the younger generation is overwhelmingly mixed. In a couple of generations children will look back and wonder what was the matter with these Brahmins. So, all I am saying is, wake up Brahmins, get with the program.

Cheers and best regards Shri KRS!

 

[RVR]

There is no point in arguing on Varna, Jathi and Bagavath Geetha. The point here is how to remove inequality.

Women literacy and empowerment in the present generation of brahmin girls is leading to intercaste marriages which is being discussed in this forum under different thread.

Nearly 35% of the people in India and 27% of the people in Tamilnadu are still illeterate without even having basic school education. Eventhough detailed statistics are not available about the illeterate, my presumption is they belong mostly to SC, ST, Muslims, MBC and OBC categories with least percentage from non-reserved castes and Christians. Unless basic education improves, social disparity cannot be removed. Once a person of a so called lower caste gets education and migrates to a city, the social disparity is automatically removed to a great extent without being noticed.

Our politicians both at all India level as well as Tamilandu state level wants to keep them illeterate for obvious reasons. Dravidian parties in Tamilnadu have miserably failed to impart quality school education to the poor and downtrodden sections of the society.

I earnestly feel that EVR was more honest. He started his career as a freedom fighter. During the course of the struggle, he shifted his focus from countries freedom to individual freedom. Throughout his career, he was not after power but was focussed on his movement.

Unfortunately, his movement was hijacked by people whose motive was power and money. Cinema and Liquor lobbies hijacked his movement. CNA wrote Story and dialogue for films. Karunanidhi produced films. Part of the movement was hijacked by a Malayalee Actor MGR and the same is inherited by a Brahmin Actress Jayalalitha. Net result, social justice agenda got totally diluted. Cinema and Liquor lobby is controlling Politics in Tamilnadu.

More than one fourth of the population in Tamilnadu are still illeterate and are below poverty line. Two tumbler system still prevails. Even two days back Marxist leader Brinda Karat was arrested when She tried to enter a Dalit village near Usilampatti where Dalit - Thevar conflict prevails with high tension.

My earnest feeling is Dravidian parties after EVR are highly responsible for failure of Social Justice in Tamilnadu.

 

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To All: Why this long discussion about surthi, smirthis etc and vedams, just sit silent and close your eyes and ask your self what is the purpose of my human birth, what I wanted to do and not do. If we overspeaks we last our energy and misssion,so less speak and silent will lead towards spiritual journy. After quite some time the answer comes I am not belong to any Jathi pathi but only Soul. Once understand soul then automatically no chanting Manthiram. MANAM ATHU CHEMMIYYANAL MANTHIRAMKAL THEYVAILIIAI. s.r.k.

 

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Paaguthrivu ( 6 th sence)

To RV sir sorry, I am not acceptable on EVR, he stayed at Yearcaud for a months Time next door to us and I was 12year old and our family having contacts with communist leader Jeeva, he stayed with us, every day they discuss about political and economics, i understood some of the discusion towards untouchablety,cast,and other things,his view is against the Tamils and the Tamil language,since the Tamils are not allowing (Nadar,Daver,Mudalaiyar,karkatha vellalars and other tamil speacking community was against social justice) for betterment and he himself belong to naickar so other telugu speaking (Adi draviders) to get upleftment he used his party,and he once said with out divide and rule itis not possible to get votes.Thats why he himself accepected Onians for his weight(Thulaparam).And solded it and made money. He is not a true leader,and laterstage I understood communists are also not trustworthy. s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

To RV sir sorry, I am not acceptable on EVR, he stayed at Yearcaud for a months Time next door to us and I was 12year old and our family having contacts with communist leader Jeeva, he stayed with us, every day they discuss about political and economics, i understood some of the discusion towards untouchablety,cast,and other things,his view is against the Tamils and the Tamil language,since the Tamils are not allowing (Nadar,Daver,Mudalaiyar,karkatha vellalars and other tamil speacking community was against social justice) for betterment and he himself belong to naickar so other telugu speaking (Adi draviders) to get upleftment he used his party,and he once said with out divide and rule itis not possible to get votes.Thats why he himself accepected Onians for his weight(Thulaparam).And solded it and made money. He is not a true leader,and laterstage I understood communists are also not trustworthy. s.r.k.

Dear Sri s.r.k ji,

The point which we are discussing is social justice. And every body has to accept that EVR is the father figure of social justice movement in Tamilnadu. But his movement miserably failed subsequently is my argument.

Narayana Guru belonging to Ezhava community started similar movement in Kerala but as a parallel spiritual social justice movement in Hinduism. His movement is definitely a better success. People belonging not only of Ezhava community (considered most backward in Kerala) but belonging to other communities also managed to get better education. Keralites belonging to all the castes and religion,because of better education, have migrated to all parts of the world and are definitely leading a better life as compared to Tamilians. Even within Hindus in Kerala, Nair service society, Ezhava society etc have built lot of educational and medical institutions delivering better service to the entire community. The owner of Chandrika Soap belongs to Ezhava community and he has built a very good charitable hospital in a remote village in Kerala which is used by all the community people.`Amma' belonging to fisherman community has built a huge charitable hospital in Kochi for the benefit of entire community.

Whereas Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu have miserably failed in basic education field. Medical facilities in Kerala also are much better & cheaper than Tamilnadu.

To sum up, Kerala basically had a class struggle whereas Tamilnadu had a caste struggle. Class struggle movement produced better results as compared to caste struggle movement.

 

[gokul.kannan]

Dear Venkatramani,
One reason why Narayana Guru was a sucess is because he did not base his movement on hate, but EVR did. Also, EVR blindly spoke on hinduism without really caring to know about it, but narayana guru actions were on reforming hinduism by removing the undesirable elements from it. Hinduism cannot simply be wiped out from this land as EVR dreamt as it is far more richer and meaningful than wat he understood. So wat really remains from his movement is hatred.

 

[Singleliner]

Whereas Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu have miserably failed in basic education field. Medical facilities in Kerala also are much better & cheaper than Tamilnadu.

To sum up, Kerala basically had a class struggle whereas Tamilnadu had a caste struggle. Class struggle movement produced better results as compared to caste struggle movement.

First of all, please remember, T.N fares well in national index, as on date. Comparing Kerala, then, I can only say, Keralites are always thankful to the 18th century Travancore queen, as the first one in India who gave educational rights to all castes, and the subsequent influence of missionaries on literacy and healthcare. Hope you know all those mary's,mariams,jincys as nurses across the country.

Kerala also had its own caste struggle. Historical Vaikom, and Travancores Naryanaguru,founder of Madras Presidency's Anti-Brahminism were all from Kerala.

Talking about Class Stuggle in kerala.. If you know the facts right, its all between the landowning Nairs & and land grabbing Syrian Christians, and Namboodris were never involved in that.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

Our thoughts on jathi today are the same, in terms of it's usefulness and role in our Hindu society. But I have a major problem with your view on Varna. This goes to the heart of our religion's foundation, our Srutis. If you think that Srutis espoused something wrong even at the time they originated, then sir, unfortunately, I have to say you are not a Hindu. Buddhism and Jainism are not part of Hinduism, precisely because of their non belief in the vedic teachings. Now, why I am particular about this? Because, I am talking about 'social justice' in HINDUISM. If you do believe in our holy scriptures as teaching something vile, then, how can I think that you are critiquing something out of love, from our religion's perspective.

I know Sri Venkataramani Ji and Sri esarkay Ji wanted me to move on. But I think this is a very important issue to resolve.

My response in 'blue':

This is begging the question. You can't claim the truth of your conclusion by including it in your premise. Sruti or Smrithi, based on birth or not, Varna is still a supremacist hierarchical system and must be dumped. It is like the "Separate but equal" ideology that existed in the U.S. educational system. Separate is inherently unequal, it cannot be equal.
Again, as I have explained above, it does matter. Our Vedas did not propose a system of discrimination in terms of distributing the spoils of the society - brahmins were supported by others; vaishyas were to support the sudhras. It was one of the most idealistic system that was set up.

'Seperate but unequal' system is odious, based on today's culture. This is all because of the Rennaisance, the Industrial Revolution and Democracy and the resulting egalitarianism that brought about this notion that all men are created equal.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Now you are telling me why that revolution took place. Well, fine. This is not important because I am not advocating any kind of revolution, violent or otherwise. Change is already happening. In my own family the marriages among the younger generation is overwhelmingly mixed. In a couple of generations children will look back and wonder what was the matter with these Brahmins. So, all I am saying is, wake up Brahmins, get with the program.
Exactly - this is how change in our community will happen. My point is and has always been, don't hold your breath on our elders suddenly changing their ways.
Cheers and best regards Shri KRS!

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

First of all, please remember, T.N fares well in national index, as on date. Comparing Kerala, then, I can only say, Keralites are always thankful to the 18th century Travancore queen, as the first one in India who gave educational rights to all castes, and the subsequent influence of missionaries on literacy and healthcare. Hope you know all those mary's,mariams,jincys as nurses across the country.

Kerala also had its own caste struggle. Historical Vaikom, and Travancores Naryanaguru,founder of Madras Presidency's Anti-Brahminism were all from Kerala.

Talking about Class Stuggle in kerala.. If you know the facts right, its all between the landowning Nairs & and land grabbing Syrian Christians, and Namboodris were never involved in that.

We are in 21st Century and let us not talk about 18th century. In 1971, India & South Korea had same per capita income. But within three decades South Korea has become an economic giant in the world. Due to our outdated policies, we are still limping.

For education also two to three decades is more than sufficient for achieving substantial results.Even after more than four decades of Dravidian rule, 27% of the people don't know how to read and write.

Dravidian parties have ruled TN for more than four decades. Let us accept the fact that their performance in Basic school education is a miserable failure. Whatever Kamaraj started, if they had continued, we would have achieved 85 to 90% literacy by this time. Today Tamilnadu Government is directly running liquor shops. But they are unable run Schools properly.

Cinema and Liquor are the two eyes of the Dravidian movement today. Education is not.
சினிமாவும் சாராயமும் திராவிட இயக்கத்தின் இரண்டு கண்கள்
கல்வி அறிவு புகட்டுவது அல்ல

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

This goes to the heart of our religion's foundation, our Srutis.

Yes it does!

The argument seems to be that Varna is not birth based because it was conceived by the Vedas and since Vedas are holy, Varna is not birth based. This is not a serious argument.

The rishees of yore did not just devise a system of Varnas, they devised a system of varna, karma, reincarnation, etc. If we are to accept that they did not intend Varna to be birth based, it is amazing that they did not foresee what would become of this system given how wise they were. At least one would expect Lord Sri Krishna to have foreseen this considering him being all seeing and all knowing God.

Therefore, the only conclusion we can legitimately arrive at is what the texts themselves say without any interpretations, and what the three major acharyas have said, namely, Varna was always based on birth. BTW, a vast majority of Brahmins fall within the lineage of these three acharyas. Therefore, if I may say so, it is your interpretation that is at odds with the three main Acharyas and a vast majority of Brahmins who try to be true to their tradition.

If you think that Srutis espoused something wrong even at the time they originated, then sir, unfortunately, I have to say you are not a Hindu.

We are back to personal issues here. I have already answered this question -- I am just a human being, that is all. I think religion is a mixed bag. The benefits offered by religion are more than offset by the negatives. If religion is a must to organize societies then the one with least unfavorable cost/benefit equation will be something like Buddism of Ambedkar. But for myself, I have no use for religion.

If this is a problem to remain a member of this group, please let me know and I will leave, with regret of course.

I know Sri Venkataramani Ji and Sri esarkay Ji wanted me to move on. But I think this is a very important issue to resolve.

I am sorry they feel this way. Just moving on is like sweeping the dirt under the rug. In any case, I shall end my exchanges with you on this thread with this post. If you wish to respond, please do so and that shall be the last word on this thread between the two of us.

If I am not asked to leave this forum, I shall gladly engage you in other threads either from the same side or otherwise, and also engage others, if they so choose, in this very thread itself.

Cheers!

 

[Singleliner]

First para of NARA is very interesting. Some of the points which I wanted to express, were perfectly articulated here.

I wish and request the discussion should continue, in good spirits, like the same way its going on so far, without involving any personal issues.

 

[happyhindu]

The rishees of yore did not just devise a system of Varnas, they devised a system of varna, karma, reincarnation, etc. If we are to accept that they did not intend Varna to be birth based, it is amazing that they did not foresee what would become of this system given how wise they were. At least one would expect Lord Sri Krishna to have foreseen this considering him being all seeing and all knowing God.

wonder why you think the rishis and krishna did not foresee the end of things (how abt "sarva dharman parityajya, mam ekam...").

the vedas (rishis) also foresaw the end of the world (example: yajur 23.56 - "primordial matter swallows the universe at the time of dissolution...")..

just a one cent expression.

btw, may i ask what is your intension here - what is the point you are trying to make (just in case you are trying to make a point) ?

 

[Nara]

Hello Happyhindu:

Greetings!

wonder why you think the rishis and krishna did not foresee the end of things (how abt "sarva dharman parityajya, mam ekam...").

I have no clue whether they foresaw anything. The reason I stated this is because Shri KRS suggested in one of his posts that they meant well, but over time this ideal system deteriorated into what we have now. I hope in this context the above comment of mine will make sense.

btw, may i ask what is your intension here - what is the point you are trying to make (just in case you are trying to make a point) ?

My intention is not nefarious. I am not here to put down anyone or anything. I am a Tamil and by accident of birth, born into a Brahmin family, and until recently, if I might add, a pretty observant one. So, when I came across this site I got interested and joined in. I guess I have some spare time as well. In this process, if I am able to persuade a few Brahmins to do some critical introspection well and good.

Cheers!