Social Justice in Hinduism

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To Krsji, The propaganda against the Daraviden Parties. Every Town The TB's.com organise meeting and ask to participate every Brahmin irrespective of subsects . Once we raised our voice then people will turnaround and lookinto us.I have read and unterstood the DarmaShastras different meaning and the understanding was totaly on to understand the real essence of the shastras. I never get achange to read Manu smrithi. s.r.k.

 

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To Krs ji The Propaganda against DK,DMK,MDMK,VC, and lotmore Dalit orgs.AIADMK also some what in the fold, Their meetings that we the Brahmin's from North(Kaiber pass). Firest we must tell them that they only came via TADA to Tamilnadu. We must win the hearts of Dalits and underprivilege people, for that we must put our uncondisional wholeheart support for those who wish to elevate our community towards every HUMAN BEING> s.r.k.

 

[kunjuppu]

I think that awareness social justice as a predominant quality, in Hinduism, is a concept whose time has come. Not that we need to give up our spirituality. Spirituality and social justice complement each other, I think.

One cannot argue about the injustices imposed on the dalits by the caste system. All of us Hindus barring the dalits are responsible for the humilitations bestowed on 25% of our community.

I think it would not behove well of us to disclaim any responsibility for the atrocities, because current day Brahmins do not practise it. In my own younger days I have witnessed the concept of the dalit standing the proverbial 15 feet from my grandfather and also the sounds of ululueing when passing through the street. All in kerala ofcourse.

I think apology is due.

Societies have apologized for wrong doings and have come out morally strong. Germany apologized to the jews and gypsies, Britain to Africa for its part in slavery. But then neither Portugal or Spain offered no such apology even though they were equally involved in African slavery. Turkey spearheaded the first genocide of the 20th century, killing a few million Armenians, and even to this day denies it.

I would rather admire Germany and Britain.

So, where to begin for this process of contrition?

Whether we accept it or not, the Brahmins were at the top of the totem pole of caste. Everyone else came below, to varying degrees. Would an apology initiated by the Brahmin mutt heads would lead to reconciliation? I do not know.

There are many fears surrounding the process of apology: the primary reason, I feel, is that the very act of contrition may be used as a tool against us and would expose us to further abuse – verbal and physical.

The other side of this argument, is that the current day Brahmins are victims themselves and owe nothing of apology to anyone. Let someone carry this process.

It is in times of these contemplations, that we feel the leadership vacuum of a community ie credible souls with a foresighted view of not only our community, but of hindus in general, and the underlying need to revamp some of our practices to fall in line with current mainstream thoughts re dignity and equality before God. Casteism, I think, denies this basic decency to the dalits.

It would be easiest to bungle along our current path and practise that noble silence which most of us do with varying degrees of comfort or discomfort.

But I think, all of us, do squirm with unease, when we hear of graphic details of the discriminations practised by our ancestors, all in the name of religion. There is a reluctance, to deny our ancestors, the pithru pillars of many of our rituals.

Personally, I have no problem offering a regret on my behalf or on behalf of my family. It is the right thing for me to do. and I have done so in forums and on personal contacts. To me Brahmin is a community eschewed of any sense of superiority or entitlement or need for exclusivity.

The concept of social justice has to start from somewhere. I think, considering our diasporic presence and our comparative prosperity, we would probably not be impacted any more than current, by a backlash to any utterings of atonement.

It would cleanse our soul and would be equivalent to million dips in the holy ganga.

Thank you.

 

[Singleliner]

Ooops...Above is a classic article I would say. Ten cheers to this gentleman kunjuppu who wrote this finely crafted message blended with a global exposure,knowledge and intelligentsia . Guys, its worth byheart this post number 78, than any chants and slogas and folow him.

 

[krsvlr]

Social justice - Varna dharma

Varna dharma is formed with a main intension to cater to all the needs of all the sectors of people by designated contributions to the minimum requirements. But over a period of time, selfish sections in the top hierarchies misused their powers and made it to fail.

When some special previleges are given to a particular varna, protocols are leid very strongly to discourage misuse. Misuse of varna dharma is a sin and is proved in Bharatha where, the brahmins who have access to the technologies of other varnas for teaching purpose, when misuse it by practising the same are punished. Indeed those are gr8 acharyas; yet they got their due.

Varna dharmam is based on the work culture and not by birth. Brahmins who are laid to save this, are the first to misuse this and hence we have our bills to pay on behalf of our ancestors. Every brahmin today is another varnan by practise and hence we may have to rework the entire varna consolidation. We should have an open mind in doing this.

 

[happyhindu]

Every brahmin today is another varnan by practise and hence we may have to rework the entire varna consolidation.

Sir, this wud really depend on whether work (occupations) can be linked to varna or not.

To some sections, they cannot. What we are speaking is on social terms, what they are speaking is on spiritual terms.

To a section of the monastic traditions, varna is just a state of the mind or spirit.

Anyone with desires, who feels suffering, happiness, etc is a shudra. The vaishya is better than a shudra since a vaishya can adapt (or conquer) his temperment to suit the situation (though it can be for selfish opportunistic ends such as making money). And a kshatriya is better than a vaishya because he has become somewhat selfless, and had gotten over most fears, including fear of death (this can be anyone, not just an army jawan alone). A brahmin is one who is merged or engaged in brahman, attained thru any of the four or more paths - and such ppl were a very miniscule section of the population (i seem to like the example of prahalada much).

How many people today feel no happiness or pain, in the general life that we live in ?

 

[RVR]

The so called social justice agenda has not produced desired results. Right from independence, reservations are prevailing for SC, ST communities. But has it improved the literacy levels. Village schools have no teachers or terribly understaffed. There is no proper buildings and other infrastructure.

When the government is not able to give primary school education, what is the point in giving reservation at college levels. Is it a hidden agenda of some vested interests within the reserved categories to corner the seats in colleges?

Again when it comes to employment, SC/ST category vacancies are not filled due to non-availability of candidates in the Govt departments and public sector undertakings.

In the name of Social Justice, great injustice is being done to the poor and downtrodden people of the reserved communities.

When

 

[Singleliner]

A group of scientists placed 5 monkeys in a cage and in the middle, a ladder with bananas on the top.

Every time a monkey went up the ladder, the scientists soaked the rest of the monkeys with cold water.

After a while, every time a monkey went up the ladder, the others beat up the one on the ladder.

After some time, no monkey dare to go up the ladder regardless of the temptation.


Scientists then decided to substitute one of the monkeys. The 1st thing this new monkey did was to go up the ladder. Immediately the other monkeys beat him up.

After several beatings, the new member learned not to climb the ladder even though never knew why.

A 2nd monkey was substituted and the same occurred. The 1st monkey participated on the beating for the 2nd monkey. A 3rd monkey was changed and the same was repeated (beating). The 4th was substituted and the beating was repeated and finally the 5th monkey was replaced.

What was left was a group of 5 monkeys that even though never received a cold shower, continued to beat up any monkey who attempted to climb the ladder.

If it was possible to ask the monkeys why they would beat up all those who attempted to go up the ladder…..

I bet you the answer would be….

“I don’t know – that’s how things are done around here..And this how the social in-justice by caste&discrimination continues, not alone India, but in most of the South East Asian countries.

 

[gokul.kannan]

reservation

Dear Venkatramani,
I'm surprised by your confidence in saying that the social justice agenda has not produced desired results. Sir, have you got the statistics to prove your claim? Well, I dont have any to refute it either, but one thing that could definitely said is, you see a lot of MBCs/SCs/STs in the mainstream society, like in corporate sectors, elite educational institutions etc. This has been made possible only due to reservations. Well, one could endlessly put points in favour of it, but that is not the intention of my post.
We definitely need to review the reservation policy - like why is there a 70% reservation in tamilnadu, when in other states it is only 33%. Is it to appease the BCs and get their share of votes? Is not the reservation being fully used only by the creamy layer of the backward castes, while the poor BCs remain the way they are. So, to get the full benefits of social justice should not the creamy layers be excluded from it? Also, has there been a review of the reservation policy at all? What is the basis of continuing the same quota endlessly, when we dont know if it distributes benefits equally or if it is only distributing it to a privileged few ? has there been a caste based census? I think our critic of the reservation policy should be on this lines..

 

[RVR]

“I don’t know – that’s how things are done around here..And this how the social in-justice by caste&discrimination continues, not alone India, but in most of the South East Asian countries.

I don't know about other South East Asian countries but in India, Governments both at Centre and State have introduced reservations for the deprived communities long back. But no Government dared to review the working through an Institutional Mechanism. The reservations are cornered by a few within the community. Majority of the poor and downtrodden within these communities are still deprived.

Since Government has taken up their cause, they indirectly discriminated the so called forward communities. Probably people belonging to the so called forward communities have started taking care of themselves rather than bother about really deserving people of the other communities.

Probably a mechanism involving both caste and class would have served the purpose in a better way. Kerala is the best example where class struggle took upper hand than caste struggle. Literacy levels in Kerala is almost 100% and people below poverty line is very low.

Dravidian parties used only caste struggle but they could not achieve 100% literacy nor reduce people below poverty line. Politicians belonging to almost all the parties in Tamilnadu are controlling educational institutions. They charge exorbitant fees and deny admission to poor and downtrodden students belonging to all communities.

Once literacy improves and people migrate from villages to towns and cities, the discrimination disappears to a great extent. Probably the dravidian parties have a hidden agenda not to allow people to become literate.

 

[Nara]

I tend to conclude that a comma was missed after 'papayoni', thus some folks taking it as an adjective, rather than a noun.

Sanskrit did not have any punctuation marks. Even the vertical bar indicating the end of a line or sentence was introduced quite late in the 1500s. Giving meaning to 9.32 and 9.33 that contradicts the other concepts propounded by Lord Sri Krishna elsewhere in BG such as karma, rebirth, etc. gets you into the realm of personal opinion.

[...] This is the first time I am hearing Vaishyas hailing from the sinful yoni per your categorization; because they are part of dwijas. Also in the previous verse, the Bhagawan addresses Arjuna as 'Son of Kunti'. So, I do not think that the adjective applies to all women either. So I think your interpretation is wrong.

Well, I can live with that .

There are probably hundreds of commentaries for Srimat BG. I have read less than just one handful of these. Therefore I am in no position to say whether my view is a small minority view or not. It could very well be. However, even if it is indeed a minority view, it does not matter, as it includes such luminaries as Adhi Sankara. Bhagavat Ramanuja, and Swami Madhvacharya. From more recent times, the commentary of Swami Sidbhavanandhar of Sri Ramakrishna Thapovanam of Thirpparaythurai also says these are births that result out of papa.

.... my stance is not that a few people in our community are not following the general ideas expressed in the Smrithi. But rather they are following a tradition that was handed down with superstion and do not have any 'culmissiom' in their hearts.

This clearly shows that this insidious Varna theory makes otherwise goodhearted people do such terrible things. I daresay supremacist feeling is quite prevalent among Brahmins even today as evidenced by a majority of postings we see in this site.

As much as I am not responsible for the sins of my forefathers, I am not going to do any special amends on their behalf.

I hope you will reconsider this statement. If this logic is accepted there is no need for the US government to regret slavery, the Australian government to regret their policies against aboriginal population, or the British to regret colonialism.

No revolution based on violence and compulsion ever succeeded.

Historically this is not entirely true. Having said that, I must say I never proposed revolution that too based on violence. My views are perhaps revolutionary. My prescription if any is for Brahmins to ownup to their culpability and make amends, thats all. I am not proposing that any self proclaimed reformer must go around forcing Brahmins to apologize to other varnas, savarna or avarna. There must be genuine change of heart. The leadership has a responsibility to guide this process.

Cheers!

 

[Singleliner]

There are probably hundreds of commentaries for Srimat BG. I have read less than just one handful of these.

I hope you will reconsider this statement. If this logic is accepted there is no need for the US government to regret slavery, the Australian government to regret their policies against aboriginal population, or the British to regret colonialism.

There are 2 valuable points said by NARA. Lets not dissect and break our head with Srimat Bagwat Gita or Vedas, and better look in to the realities of whats happening around.

And let me put it with a simple point,that, why in Indian judicial system we have a law forcing the son to pay for his deceased father's debts? Is it ethical to say, I love my father so much, but I'm not responsible for his debts. We may be right in saying the other way, with our own scriptural foundations, but the word and even the Indian legal system dont agree to this.

 

[RVR]

Dear Venkatramani,
I'm surprised by your confidence in saying that the social justice agenda has not produced desired results. Sir, have you got the statistics to prove your claim? Well, I dont have any to refute it either, but one thing that could definitely said is, you see a lot of MBCs/SCs/STs in the mainstream society, like in corporate sectors, elite educational institutions etc. This has been made possible only due to reservations. Well, one could endlessly put points in favour of it, but that is not the intention of my post.
We definitely need to review the reservation policy - like why is there a 70% reservation in tamilnadu, when in other states it is only 33%. Is it to appease the BCs and get their share of votes? Is not the reservation being fully used only by the creamy layer of the backward castes, while the poor BCs remain the way they are. So, to get the full benefits of social justice should not the creamy layers be excluded from it? Also, has there been a review of the reservation policy at all? What is the basis of continuing the same quota endlessly, when we dont know if it distributes benefits equally or if it is only distributing it to a privileged few ? has there been a caste based census? I think our critic of the reservation policy should be on this lines..

My point is the term Social Justice is a convenient tool for the Dravidian parties to exploit the poor and downtrodden. Those who fight for social justice have not bothered to provide basic school education to the deprived people of even the reserved category . When they are unable to provide basic school education, then what is the point in reserving seats in College education and subsequent employment.

There are no primary schools in most of the villages. Even if there is a school, there is no proper teachers. Recently on Teachers day, TN CM announced that he is increasing teachers strength from two to three. When there are five or eight classes in an elementary school, how is it possible to manage with two or three teachers. It means even the primary education is denied to the poor and downtrodden of the reserved communities. What is the point in providing reservation in higher education and employment. Majority of the people belonging to the BC,SC, ST communities are being cheated.

You are perfectly correct that reservation is cornered by few people who have access to school education even within the reserved communities. The social justice agenda of the Dravidian parties have miserably failed.

Neighbouring Kerala has experienced only class struggle and has succeeded in achieving 100% Literacy. Whereas the so called caste struggle under the banner `social justice' has miserably failed in Tamilnadu.

In the name of the term `social justice', Dravidian parties are only exploiting the poor and downtrodden.

 

[Singleliner]

My point is the term Social Justice is a convenient tool for the Dravidian parties to exploit the poor and downtrodden. Those who fight for social justice have not bothered to provide basic school education to the deprived people of even the reserved category .

Neighbouring Kerala has experienced only class struggle and has succeeded in achieving 100% Literacy.

In the name of the term `social justice', Dravidian parties are only exploiting the poor and downtrodden.

You are right in showing your anger against dravida kazhagams for cornering our community.

But, bench marking Kerala's literacy, I think, the credit goes to the Travancore queen who first gave dalits the right to education and subsequently got monopolized by missionaries. The states where Catholic population are high, the literacy are also high, including north east.

If you could check in to the Social and human index, barring kerala, TN stands very much higher in national index, and beats the neighboring A.P, karnataka, or UP,MP,Bihar, orissa etc.

But, if you really claim that Dravida Kazhagams had not done justice to the dalits, please be alert, people on the other side would not hesitate in calling you as someone who is shedding some crocodile tears for dalits.

I think, in this democratic setup, every one incl dalits had got what they wanted and still command the same.Better take a look at yourself, is what I feel.

 

[RVR]

You are right in showing your anger against dravida kazhagams for cornering our community.

But, bench marking Kerala's literacy, I think, the credit goes to the Travancore queen who first gave dalits the right to education and subsequently got monopolized by missionaries. The states where Catholic population are high, the literacy are also high, including north east.

If you could check in to the Social and human index, barring kerala, TN stands very much higher in national index, and beats the neighboring A.P, karnataka, or UP,MP,Bihar, orissa etc.

But, if you really claim that Dravida Kazhagams had not done justice to the dalits, please be alert, people on the other side would not hesitate in calling you as someone who is shedding some crocodile tears for dalits.

I think, in this democratic setup, every one incl dalits had got what they wanted and still command the same.Better take a look at yourself, is what I feel.

Please read my article fully. I am not a politician and I don't have to shed crocodile tears for any body. Without providing basic school education, providing reservation in higher education is nothing but `crocodile tears'. It only helps few among the deprived communities to enjoy the reservation benefit.

Please go through the literacy figures according 2001 census displayed in the following website.

Census of India 2001-- Literacy rate in Indian States

Tamilnadu has a literacy rate of around 73% against all India average of
65%. It is not a very great achievement. Let us compare ourselves with a good performing state instead of poor performing states. We should have achieved 85 or 90% literacy by this time.

Schools are without teachers which is accepted by TN CM himself by his statement on teachers day. Late Kamaraj introduced free education for all without opening up liquor shop. Schools at that time had enough teaching staff.

Today Dravidian parties have opened liquor shops but are unable to find money for education. Education is the major step to empowerment of all communities. School education particularly is the important first step.

Commercialisation of education started only after Dravidian rule. All the political leaders have either directly or indirectly controlling educational institutions right from school to colleges. They charge exorbitant capitation fee and high tuition fee. Inspite of exposure by Times of India of a ruling party politician recently, no action has taken place.

Poor and downtrodden from all communities are affected by this commercialisation.

Dravidian parties are fully responsible for spoiling and corrupting education system in Tamilnadu. Since most of the politicians are having vested interest, they don't want to take corrective action.

 

[Nara]

But, if you really claim that Dravida Kazhagams had not done justice to the dalits, please be alert, people on the other side would not hesitate in calling you as someone who is shedding some crocodile tears for dalits.

DK did not care much about Dalits. They were more concerned about Brahminical dominance in almost all spheres of life some fifty years ago. They were the first to advocate the bifurcation of society between B and NB and the foolish Brahmins payed along. The founder of DK, EVR, was primarily interested in the uplift of "Shudra" at the expense of Brahmins. He did not care very much about Dalits unless it suited his divisive politics. In fact he was concerned that reservations for Dalits would result in further marginalization of "Shudra".

DMK's track record is no better, if not worse. Thol. Thirumavalan was originally a member of DMK. He realized DMK's support on Dalit issues is not dependable. In most instances the Dalits of Tamilnadu were being subjugated by people who belonged to DMK/ADMK/PMK/MDMK etc. etc. Thol Thirumavalavan formed his own party, Dalit Panthers, so that the Dalit voice is front and center in the body politic of Tamilnadu. For all the talk of rationalism and social reform, today Tamilnadu is one of the least friendly places in India for Dalits.

Cheers!

p.s. To be fair, EVR was very good with issues relating to emancipation of women, but not very good with Dalit issues.

 

[Singleliner]

If one wanna compare the literacy levels, then there are 2 ways.. One is literacy before 1930's era, and another is the contribution of missionaries. If you wanna compare Kerala,Goa,Noth East to TamilNadu, then you are comparing missionaries with Dravida Kazhagams. I think thats not a fair way to analyze. I have shared this point before, but still not picked up..

If one is worried about commericalization of education,thats exactly what Karunanidhi blamed MGR (both DK's), when he opened pvt medical and engineering colleges, and Muka was only to mince his own words in commenting on MGR for his noon meal scheme making children as beggers, only to end up with adding lot more colleges and making noon meal scheme as non-veg with weekly twice egg masala chatthunavu. But both of them proved to the world that they both are right...If not for them, our TAMIL folks would not have dominated the modern economy called I.T era, along with their brothers of A.P and Karnataka.
'
Dont forget, once Delhi was a dream destination, but now for the north indians, they are busy hunting rented house in Santhome, Koramangala and Begumpet.

 

[Singleliner]

today Tamilnadu is one of the least friendly places in India for Dalits.
.

My point out there was, the falling of strata.. The mudaliars,chettiyars played the first role to break the top varna order. Followed, DMK broke the forward caste supremacy and brought up the backward class. And now those you talked about Dalit Panthers are on the mission of moving up with the recent political system.

I think the day, the last or lowest varna order reaches the level playing platform, there gonna be an equilibrium and the reservations would be put in to a full stop.

Anyways, I dont feel, that Tamilnadu is the least friendly state for untouchables.. Im not convinced about that point. As said, in varna, every one is a victim and also has the privilege to victimise the one below, and sufferers are those on top and on bottom most rug.

Mama, take this badge off of me,I cant use it anymore, in this modern day!!

 

[RVR]

Commercialisation of School Education was started only after Dravidian parties came to power. Kamaraj was the first to introduce free school education which is a major step in empowering children irrespective of caste, religion, race or language. Schools had enough teaching staff during his period and subsequent Bakthavathsalam period. Almost all villages had elementary schools and nearby towns had high schools.For example, my own village panchayat had two schools, one upto Vth standard and another upto 8th Standard. If the same facility has continued means, we would have achieved 85 to 90% literacy by this time. We don't require missioneries to do the job.

After Dravidian parties rule only, school education was commercialised. Today villages don't have proper primary school. Even if there is a school, there are not enough teachers. In the cities, no body from a middle class family admit their children in Corporation schools for obvious reasons. Private schools collect huge capitation fee and exorbitant tuition fees.

Dravidian parties are still depriving more than 25% of the state population without school education. If we analyse the 25% further, probably we may end up concluding that Dalits, Muslims, MBC and OBC are the most affected communities. Most of the forward communities inspite of poverty would have provided education to their children.

Is it social justice? When the dravidian parties are unable to give primary education to the targeted communities, what is the use in giving 69% reservation in Higher education? Those who complete school education, don't go for agricultural farm work. Instead they prefer atleast a blue collared factory job if not a white collard job.

Literacy, particularly school literacy, is the first step in the empowerment of deprived communities.

As far as college education is concerned, everybody gets a seat in Arts/Science or Engineering college. Education loans are available upto Rs.4 lakhs without collateral security from banks.

Let us accept the fact that Dravidian parties have miserably failed in their duty to provide proper basic education to the targeted communities.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara Ji, catch me in 'blue' below:

Sanskrit did not have any punctuation marks. Even the vertical bar indicating the end of a line or sentence was introduced quite late in the 1500s. Giving meaning to 9.32 and 9.33 that contradicts the other concepts propounded by Lord Sri Krishna elsewhere in BG such as karma, rebirth, etc. gets you into the realm of personal opinion.
I know about Sanskrit language structure. But your explanations are just the same as mine - they are interpretations. It is just that I think yours do not fit the context. Please, if you want, feel free to quote other verses in Gita to correspond with your interpretations.

Well, I can live with that .

There are probably hundreds of commentaries for Srimat BG. I have read less than just one handful of these. Therefore I am in no position to say whether my view is a small minority view or not. It could very well be. However, even if it is indeed a minority view, it does not matter, as it includes such luminaries as Adhi Sankara. Bhagavat Ramanuja, and Swami Madhvacharya. From more recent times, the commentary of Swami Sidbhavanandhar of Sri Ramakrishna Thapovanam of Thirpparaythurai also says these are births that result out of papa.
Sir, I tried to locate and read these commentaries, as the commentaries I have read are numerous and different. Everyone I have read (must be about two dozen, including one by Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan) differ from yours. And given the context of the verse I tend to go with their interpretation. I sincerely doubt that both Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhvacharyal in particular would have viewed Srimad Gita as you do. Will you please give me the interpretations in English, if you have them

This clearly shows that this insidious Varna theory makes otherwise goodhearted people do such terrible things. I daresay supremacist feeling is quite prevalent among Brahmins even today as evidenced by a majority of postings we see in this site.
I agree with you partially - this 'supramacist' feeling is not due to a self choice. It is due to following a tradition blindly. This is why we can not change this overnight by logic. It takes time. People do not change when you berate and shame them for their behaviour.

I hope you will reconsider this statement. If this logic is accepted there is no need for the US government to regret slavery, the Australian government to regret their policies against aboriginal population, or the British to regret colonialism.
Why should I? Did I do anything wrong to these other communities? People who need to apologize are the ones who did harm. That may be our forefathers. But it is entirely valid for certain religious/cultural organizations who represent our community to apologize, if they feel so.

Historically this is not entirely true. Having said that, I must say I never proposed revolution that too based on violence. My views are perhaps revolutionary. My prescription if any is for Brahmins to ownup to their culpability and make amends, thats all. I am not proposing that any self proclaimed reformer must go around forcing Brahmins to apologize to other varnas, savarna or avarna. There must be genuine change of heart. The leadership has a responsibility to guide this process.
Well, then show me examples where 'revolution based on violence' (I mean that what is imposed on the violators) that has succeeded in history. Revolution is always violent. Violence is not just about spilling blood - it is as much about changing one's way of life suddenly and losing grip on what one feels as the foundation for one's life purpose. For a lot of 'intellectuals', changing a life is just a matter of adapting to new ideas. I am sorry to say, I have found this to be not the case.

You have said that you love/revere your elders in your family. May I ask, whether you have people in your family who do not adhere to your ideas and how you treat them?

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[[email protected]]

:fish2:To RV sir you are correct, education become More commercial when MGR become CM.Mostly all MP's,MLA's started Schools and collages, it become handy that Consitutation development Fund diverted for their personnal expences.All most all haveing engg collages,for that reson Maruthuvar Ramadass left DMK fold. More over in the name of reservation the collages fill the seats in advance for other state students by takeing lumpsum amount as donnation, and those outstation students enjoy all the Govt concessions and other benifits,lastly they will get employments,because they know Hindi. The dravidan parties only manifesto is to destroy Tamilnadu in all fields.None of the leaders belong to Tamil community. Tamizyan ulaglam vazhithruthalum Tamizynuku endu oru Nadu ellai. s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

Let us not blame MGR alone. School education was commercialised even before MGR came to power. My point is commercialisation of school education is the biggest injustice done to poor and downtrodden of all communities. Unless a person gets school education, how can he think about higher education.

Roughly 27% of the people in Tamilnadu are not getting even school education. Is it social justice?

Let everybody in Tamilnadu learn to read and write in their mother tongue (Tamil). Let us have one language formula. Let everybody learn simple arithmetic. This is the first step to empowerment.

 

[[email protected]]

To RV sir : the Midday meal scheme from Kamarajar is all the children should get education,but MGR 's Sathunnavu is to make children to beggers( I have noticed that the centre incharge use to sell all the available food supply, and most of the small kids will carry the food to their home and drunking father and the others will eat the food,and today the DMK's Rs 1/ per Kg rice lead to laziness and dificultingeting people for work,one day earning they purchase ,rest of the week Drink and enjoy.To days wages per person is Rs 350/- plus Bus fare, Tea and vadi is extra .To day Draviden Parties making people lazy and the No of frees make thing worest. s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

To RV sir : the Midday meal scheme from Kamarajar is all the children should get education,but MGR 's Sathunnavu is to make children to beggers( I have noticed that the centre incharge use to sell all the available food supply, and most of the small kids will carry the food to their home and drunking father and the others will eat the food,and today the DMK's Rs 1/ per Kg rice lead to laziness and dificultingeting people for work,one day earning they purchase ,rest of the week Drink and enjoy.To days wages per person is Rs 350/- plus Bus fare, Tea and vadi is extra .To day Draviden Parties making people lazy and the No of frees make thing worest. s.r.k.

Most of the European countries have social protection systems which works very well. Let us not criticise social welfare measures, which are very much required particularly in the Indian Context. When people below poverty line is so high, we have to provide such things. It doesn't mean that I agree for misuse of the noon meal scheme or Re.1 rice scheme.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri. KRS:

Greetings!

We have had several back and forth on whether or not Varna is birth based. But this is somewhat tangential to the main question being considered in this thread. Even if one concedes the point about Varna and birth, which I don't, Varna is a pernicious concept, the eradication of which is a prerequisite in our society for any hope of a semblance of social justice.

Why should people be divided into Varnas in the first place?

If Varna is based on the work they do, why should the varnas have a hierarchical social structure?

Why should farm workers, construction workers, or merchants, be the fourth or third varna emanating from the feet and thighs?

If Varna is based on gunas it is useless as a mechanism for classifying people as gunas are unseen. Who is to tell?

Why can't people just choose their occupation based on their interest and abilities without getting branded as Brahmin and Shudra?

What value does it add to classify a large portion of the population as "Shudras" and tell them their primary Guna is "thamas" and that people with an abundance of "tamas" are good only for servitude?

Why associate all kinds of noble characteristics to Sathva and then say that Brahmanas are Satvic? Why can't a carpenter or fisherman, or "thotti" have noble outlook?

If Varna system allows a "thotti" to be Brahmin show me how many "Thottis" were ever even considered for giveing this "honor"?

Why associate all kinds of debasing characteristics to tamas and then say that Shudras are tamasic?

What legitimate purpose does it serve to say that Brahmin is not birth based, and then call a group of people "Brahmin" based strictly on birth?

Why claim everyone is a "Shudra" at birth, but treat all others who are not born into a Brahmin family as real Shudra?

Why is everything about Varna hierarchical, with special privilege and respect to Brahmanas and onerous duties and scorn to Shudras?

These are rhetorical questions. Find the answers in the privacy of your conscience.

Cheers!


BG and Varna:

I sincerely doubt that both Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhvacharyal in particular would have viewed Srimad Gita as you do. Will you please give me the interpretations in English, if you have them

Interpretations of Adhi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja are straight forward. Nothing fancy. They just state that papa causes female birth or birth in the two lower Varnas. But Swami Madhvacharya's explanation is somewhat different as Madhwas believe in Varna for jivAs. He says that papa causes a Brahmana jIva to be born into Vaisya or Shudra varna or a male jIva to be born into a female body.

Once again, I strongly urge everyone to look at the text and decide for yourself. Check out what Yoni means. No interpretation, no commentary, just plain meaning of the word Yoni.

Well, then show me examples where 'revolution based on violence'

Revolution is usually defined as a fundamental change in power structure that takes place quickly. Until the recent past such quick changes took place only through violence. The latest example is that of Iranian revolution.

May I ask, whether you have people in your family who do not adhere to your ideas and how you treat them?

This is a strawman. If I fight with my family members or disrespect them, it says something about me, not about the views I am expressing. The truth or falsity of my views is independent of whether I am a decent human being or a scoundrel.