Soliciting Opinions on an Earlier Post

[OKO]

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I was going through another forum and found an interesting post, which, unfortunately, no one had replied to, and I would like to know the opinion of other members within the group. (OG thread: https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/reforms-in-hindu-caste-system-by-j-ajithkumar.7480/)

Post by Ms. Yamaka:
"Dear Raju & Co:

Unfortunately, India was under the occupation of invaders since 900 AD and under Colonial power for nearly 300 years... English people as our Masters did so many bad things AND some good things - one among them is writing the Indian History (mostly as non-partisan/non-biased academics) and have done fairly a good job...

Now you people are hell bent on re-writing the known history of Caste Hierarchy in India...you have a political party - the BJP - bankrolling such efforts.

Now, please write "Your History" here by touching the following milestones!

1. Who started the Hinduism as we know it today? When was it started?

2. Is there a Caste Hierarchy in India? If so, how did it get started? How is it connected to Hinduism?

3. Who were the Architects of this Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy?

4. Did Brahmins and "Kings & Warriors" (Kshatrias?) collude to plunder rest of the people in the Caste Hierarchy?

5. Did Brahmins work with the British to codify the caste system in the Indian Legal System?
I have given my answers earlier... now you articulate yours cogently (with PROOF) and spread the blame on OTHERS!
Let's see whether it makes any sense to reasonable people here!!

Good luck.

"

P. S. This is not to incite communal issues but just a survey of people's thoughts in 2025. I have yet to share my perspective as I do not wish to make anyone prejudiced because of my thoughts and share their views openly (regardless of what side they lean towards).

 

[prasad1]

Delete

 

[prasad1]

I started the thread quoted by OP.

• Thread starterprasad1
• Start dateOct 20, 2011

Most of the members of that time have retired from this group.


The history of Hinduism and the caste system is incredibly complex, shaped by many factors over thousands of years. The caste hierarchy, which started as a relatively flexible division of labor, became more rigid over time, especially after the influence of colonialism, which further entrenched it in legal and social systems.


Regarding blame, it’s important to note that while Brahmins and kings played a role in perpetuating the caste system, the historical evolution of these structures involves many different forces and cannot be solely attributed to one group. British colonial rule, in particular, played a significant role in formalizing and reinforcing the caste system in the modern legal and administrative systems.


The historical narrative is not just about finding blame but understanding how different forces—both internal and external—shaped the India we know today.

 

[OKO]

I started the thread quoted by OP.

• Thread starterprasad1
• Start dateOct 20, 2011

Most of the members of that time have retired from this group.


The history of Hinduism and the caste system is incredibly complex, shaped by many factors over thousands of years. The caste hierarchy, which started as a relatively flexible division of labor, became more rigid over time, especially after the influence of colonialism, which further entrenched it in legal and social systems.


Regarding blame, it’s important to note that while Brahmins and kings played a role in perpetuating the caste system, the historical evolution of these structures involves many different forces and cannot be solely attributed to one group. British colonial rule, in particular, played a significant role in formalizing and reinforcing the caste system in the modern legal and administrative systems.


The historical narrative is not just about finding blame but understanding how different forces—both internal and external—shaped the India we know today.

The thread is not about the primary thread, which was regarding something else, but what people believe at present. I don't believe I had requested the initial posters to respond, but rather, I just wanted those particular questions to be answered, as that person had highlighted many of the questions asked by people. That is why it has been started as a separate thread.

I understand that you seem to have closure regarding this topic and maybe this thread to vitiates that. However, as mentioned earlier, this is not for the early members and is just something I wanted to find out. Maybe I should not have cited the post, as that seems to have a bad effect on you for some reason.

 

[a-TB]

I was going through another forum and found an interesting post, which, unfortunately, no one had replied to, and I would like to know the opinion of other members within the group. (OG thread: https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/reforms-in-hindu-caste-system-by-j-ajithkumar.7480/)

Post by Ms. Yamaka:
"Dear Raju & Co:

Unfortunately, India was under the occupation of invaders since 900 AD and under Colonial power for nearly 300 years... English people as our Masters did so many bad things AND some good things - one among them is writing the Indian History (mostly as non-partisan/non-biased academics) and have done fairly a good job...

Now you people are hell bent on re-writing the known history of Caste Hierarchy in India...you have a political party - the BJP - bankrolling such efforts.

Now, please write "Your History" here by touching the following milestones!

1. Who started the Hinduism as we know it today? When was it started?

2. Is there a Caste Hierarchy in India? If so, how did it get started? How is it connected to Hinduism?

3. Who were the Architects of this Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy?

4. Did Brahmins and "Kings & Warriors" (Kshatrias?) collude to plunder rest of the people in the Caste Hierarchy?

5. Did Brahmins work with the British to codify the caste system in the Indian Legal System?
I have given my answers earlier... now you articulate yours cogently (with PROOF) and spread the blame on OTHERS!
Let's see whether it makes any sense to reasonable people here!!

Good luck.

"

P. S. This is not to incite communal issues but just a survey of people's thoughts in 2025. I have yet to share my perspective as I do not wish to make anyone prejudiced because of my thoughts and share their views openly (regardless of what side they lean towards).

In my view these are all wrong questions. Let me give an example as to what I mean by wrong questions.

if someone asks "Say Yes or no first and then explain, have you stopped taking pills for stupidity" what can be a response ?

 

[OKO]

In my view these are all wrong questions. Let me give an example as to what I mean by wrong questions.

if someone asks "Say Yes or no first and then explain, have you stopped taking pills for stupidity" what can be a response ?

yes maybe but I feel that question 4 and 5 are quite relevant. So let's refine it why don't we?

1. Does the "Hindu" identity or religion by itself perpetuate caste and caste-based discrimination?
2. Many claim the caste structure to be originally horizontal, yet, caste today has been seen in a pyramidical structure- How did this come into being?
3. Did colonialism create a solidified caste structure?
4. Did brahmins as a community by large help with the stratification of the caste and designations for personal gain or is that a myth?

This is how I had understood the questions that the initial poster had tried to bring forth. I now realise that I should have given context and worded the question in such a way as to not cause conflict as the initial post does have some biases. Hopefully this helps clarify my intention and point out what I wanted to discuss.

 

[renuka]

Let me try sharing my opinion.

1.Who started the Hinduism as we know it today? When was it started?

Answer : No one started present day concept of Hinduism.
In the past everyone followed their prefered school of thought mostly related to their cultural practice.
One might follow shaivaism, vaishnavaism, shaktaism, yoga system, local deities, ancestor worship etc.
All these various practices were like apps on the Android/ i-phone of India..but these days we call the Android/i - phone as Hinduism.

2. Is there a Caste Hierarchy in India? If so, how did it get started? How is it connected to Hinduism?

Answer: Yes, there is a caste heirarchy.It exists when one has only a superficial understanding of the Varna-Ashrama system which leads to pride and prejudice.

At the same time, there is NO caste heirarchy if one realizes its a Guna based division which is the backbone for both society and self.
Within the Supreme person at a Macrocosmic level these system exist as part of the Guna division..hence the Brahmanatva from the mouth , Kshatriyatva from arms, Vaishyatva from the thighs and Sudratva from the feet.

At the microcosmic level within us itself this division exist depending on which mode we are functioning in at a given time.



3. Who were the Architects of this Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy?

Answer: No idea though its mentioned in the Purusha Shukta and The Bhagavad Gita and both dont mention it as a hierarchy.

Eg in Purusha Sukta it mentions
From His mouth came forth Brahmins..and of His arms were Kshatriyas, Vaishyas from His thighs and Sudras from His feet.

Right away we humans interpreted this as a hierarchy/discrimination.
But surprisingly we didnt choose to asign a heirarchy to the other portions of the Sukta.

For eg..
of His mind, the moon is born
of His eyes the Sun,
of His mouth, Indra,Vayu..
space from His umblicus,
the sky from his head..from His feet the earth, His ears the Quarters..

Here no one decided to say who is superior? The moon or the sun or the wind or earth or Indra or Vayu.

Reason? Because we cant derive pride for ourselves by saying the moon is superior to the sun or the elements have their hierarchy.

We can only feel a sense of High and Low if we can identify with it.
So we humans decided to ONLY asign a hierarchy to the
"From His mouth came forth Brahmins..and of His arms were Kshatriyas, Vaishyas from His thighs and Sudras from His feet"





4. Did Brahmins and "Kings & Warriors" (Kshatrias?) collude to plunder rest of the people in the Caste Hierarchy?

Answer : No kingdom can last long if Adharma prevails.
So answer is No if the King is Dharmic.

5. Did Brahmins work with the British to codify the caste system in the Indian Legal System.

Answer : I have no knowledge on this.
So my answer is I dont know.

 

[a-TB]

yes maybe but I feel that question 4 and 5 are quite relevant. So let's refine it why don't we?

1. Does the "Hindu" identity or religion by itself perpetuate caste and caste-based discrimination?
2. Many claim the caste structure to be originally horizontal, yet, caste today has been seen in a pyramidical structure- How did this come into being?
3. Did colonialism create a solidified caste structure?
4. Did brahmins as a community by large help with the stratification of the caste and designations for personal gain or is that a myth?

This is how I had understood the questions that the initial poster had tried to bring forth. I now realise that I should have given context and worded the question in such a way as to not cause conflict as the initial post does have some biases. Hopefully this helps clarify my intention and point out what I wanted to discuss.

Thank you. This set of questions seems to be more reasonable for a discussion.
The original set of questions seemed to come from someone not well versed with Hinduism. We have had trolls from other faith before LOL

The thread is before a-TB time here but I recognize a few people. I was drawn to a few scholars with whom I communicated privately and later over email. One has passed away, one stopped visiting here though I am in touch. One more person seem to be unreachable.

To respond properly I thought of a quote and will start a thread so as to not derail this one I will add a few posts before it may get spammed LOL

I will come back here and pick up this thread by then if there is still interest .

 

[a-TB]

Thank you. This set of questions seems to be more reasonable for a discussion.
The original set of questions seemed to come from someone not well versed with Hinduism. We have had trolls from other faith before LOL

The thread is before a-TB time here but I recognize a few people. I was drawn to a few scholars with whom I communicated privately and later over email. One has passed away, one stopped visiting here though I am in touch. One more person seem to be unreachable.

To respond properly I thought of a quote and will start a thread so as to not derail this one I will add a few posts before it may get spammed LOL

I will come back here and pick up this thread by then if there is still interest .

Does the "Hindu" identity or religion by itself perpetuate caste and caste-based discrimination?​

Authentic scriptures, such as the Vedas and the Upanishads, do not perpetuate caste-based discrimination. Smrithis are texts that were designed to provide practical guidance on implementing the content of the Karmakanda sections of the Vedas within the constraints of a specific time and place. While these were meant to align completely with the Vedas (Shruti), deviations have occurred in practice, creating opportunities for divisiveness to be introduced.

Additionally, the deeper significance of authentic Puranic stories is often misunderstood. These stories, interpreted literally by many, have found their way into rituals, and this literal interpretation—commonly seen across religious practices—has led to extreme divisiveness.

If the term "Hindu" is understood to represent the authentic scriptures, there is no foundation for caste discrimination. However, "Hinduism," as practiced today, often reflects local traditions, outdated Smrithis, and misinterpreted Puranic narratives. These practices can indeed perpetuate caste discrimination.

A person's identity, therefore, depends on how they perceive themselves.

It is also important to note that caste identity and discrimination are prevalent in other communities in India, including among Christians and Muslims. For example, I once encountered a Muslim individual who identified as a "Brahmin Sunni Muslim" from Uttar Pradesh—showing how deeply entrenched caste identity is across various religious groups.

Interestingly, the word "caste" itself has Portuguese origins, introduced during colonial times.

Summary: Hinduism, when understood through its authentic scriptures, does not perpetuate caste discrimination. It is ignorance and misinterpretation that sustain these ideas in society.

 

[a-TB]

Many claim the caste structure to be originally horizontal, yet caste today is seen in a pyramidal structure. How did this come into being?​

The caste structure was never horizontal. What originally existed was a classification system called Varna, which was not based on birth. Instead, Varna was determined by the nature of the mind, characterized by its Guna (qualities of Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas), and its suitability for a particular type of work. This system included only four categories (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra), which can be logically and mathematically shown to be limited to four.

On the other hand, caste, which evolved from Jati, is birth-based and unrelated to the original Varna classification. Today, there are reportedly around 1,500 to 1,800 castes, and the number continues to grow due to social and cultural dynamics.

The confusion between Varna and Jati is the root cause of many issues related to caste. While Varna was intended as a flexible and functional classification, Jati introduced rigid, birth-based divisions.

In reality, the idea of a pyramidal structure is misleading. If you look at societal dynamics, such as in Chennai, you’ll notice that even so-called Brahmins, traditionally considered "upper caste," often face systematic discrimination by political forces, such as DMK-affiliated groups.

Any perceived pyramid arises solely from ignorance. As Voltaire aptly stated, a mind that believes in absurdities is capable of atrocities. Similarly, believing that one is born into a caste identity is a dangerous absurdity that has led to countless injustices. Historically, many caste-related atrocities have been perpetrated by individuals from middle castes, reflecting the complexity of the issue.

 

[a-TB]

I usually collect well written essays over the years. I am going to leverage that to answer your third question
This is my way of thanking that person for the details. I never thought that will ever get used

Did Colonialism Create a Solidified Caste Structure?​

Hinduism is not a founded religion in the way many organized religions are. Caste issues began to surface during the time of the Mahabharata. There are historical and cultural reasons for this, which is a topic for a separate discussion. Former President Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan described Hinduism as a way of life and a worldview, accommodating a wide variety of lifestyles. The term "Hinduism" itself was coined by outsiders to the Indian subcontinent.

During British colonial rule, the English were able to control most of India, but resistance came from certain groups, including many kings and educated Brahmins.

Brahmins played a significant role in India's freedom struggle against British rule, particularly as intellectual leaders and reformers. Whether the British intentionally manipulated the caste system to create divisions, especially through the concept of "Brahminism," remains a topic of scholarly debate. Let’s highlight a few notable Brahmin freedom fighters:

• Bal Gangadhar Tilak:
  
  • Known as the "Father of Indian Unrest," Tilak was a staunch nationalist and a leader of the independence movement. His famous slogan, "Swaraj is my birthright, and I shall have it," became a rallying cry for freedom.
  • He also revitalized cultural traditions, such as Ganesh Chaturthi and Shivaji Jayanti, to foster unity and patriotism.
• Chittaranjan Das:
  
  • A prominent lawyer and nationalist, Das defended leaders like Aurobindo Ghose during sedition trials and played a key role in the Non-Cooperation Movement.
• Subramania Bharati:
  
  • The Tamil poet, journalist, and freedom fighter wrote passionately to inspire anti-colonial resistance. His poetry called for both independence and social reform.
• Rishi Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay:
  
  • The author of Vande Mataram, which became a symbol of India's struggle for independence.

These individuals, and many others, used their intellectual and leadership abilities to challenge British rule. They were not constrained by caste in their nationalist efforts, as their contributions aimed to benefit Indian society as a whole.

The question of whether the British exploited the caste system to create divisions is historically significant, and evidence suggests that they did so deliberately:

1. Codification of Caste:
   
   • The British formalized the caste system through the census (beginning in 1871). This rigidified what had previously been a more fluid social structure and made caste divisions more prominent.
   • By emphasizing caste identities, the British successfully deepened divides within Indian society to maintain their "divide and rule" strategy.
2. Brahminism and Caste Dynamics:
   
   • The term "Brahminism" is often used to critique caste privilege, especially by reformers like Jyotirao Phule and B.R. Ambedkar. While caste hierarchies existed before British rule, colonial policies likely exacerbated tensions by aligning with upper-caste elites in administration and education.
   • Simultaneously, the British supported some lower-caste movements—not out of altruism but to weaken solidarity among Indians.
3. Evidence of Divide and Rule:
   
   • British strategies encouraged rivalry among castes, religious groups, and regional identities. Policies such as the communal award system, which introduced separate electorates for different groups, institutionalized these divisions further.

​

While the British were opportunistic in exploiting these divisions, the caste system predated their arrival by centuries. Reformers like Mahatma Gandhi, B.R. Ambedkar, worked tirelessly to address caste injustices both during and after colonial rule. However, British policies entrenched caste-based divisions, making it more difficult for Indian leaders to achieve unity during the freedom struggle.

 

[a-TB]

I was not going to answer the last question. The short answer when all is taken into account is NO

While it is likely that certain sections of the Brahmin community contributed to the rigidity of the caste system at certain points in history, it would be an oversimplification to attribute the stratification to them.

 

[a-TB]

From Varna perspective all so called Brahmin caste people are Shudras given to Tamasic mindset. In terms of profession, most are Vaishyas

I will stop now. Since you are genuine in your questions and take time to write well, I felt compelled to share my perspectives

 

[prasad1]

The questions you've raised delve into complex and multi-layered topics related to caste, Hinduism, colonialism, and social stratification. Let’s break them down one by one for a deeper understanding.

1. Does the "Hindu" identity or religion by itself perpetuate caste and caste-based discrimination?

Caste and Hinduism: Caste as a social hierarchy is often associated with Hinduism, though it is important to note that caste is a social and historical construct that predates the codification of the religious texts like the Vedas or Manusmriti, which are often linked to caste. While caste is mentioned in these texts, it did not necessarily have the rigid, hereditary system it has come to represent today. Hinduism, in its essence, is a broad religion with diverse beliefs, practices, and philosophies that do not inherently promote discrimination based on caste. However, the way caste evolved in practice became entwined with religious rituals and norms.

Perpetuation of Caste: Hinduism, in its various forms, has been a significant social force in perpetuating caste-based identities, especially when religious doctrines (like the concept of varna) were interpreted to justify social hierarchies. Over time, certain interpretations of Hindu religious texts were used to justify the status quo and uphold the stratification of society, although many reform movements within Hinduism have challenged caste-based discrimination.

The surprising thing in India people carry their caste identification even after religious conversion to Abrahamic religion. A friend of mine described himself as Brahmin-Christian!!!

2. Caste: Horizontal or Pyramidical Structure?

Original Structure: Historically, caste was more fluid and based on occupational roles, with varying interpretations depending on region and community. The original concept of the varna system (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra) is often seen as more of a horizontal division—dividing people based on their roles in society and not necessarily a rigid, hierarchical stratification.

The Pyramidical Shift: Over time, the caste system became more pyramid-like, particularly in the medieval and early modern periods, as the jati system (which refers to specific sub-castes) became more complex. Factors such as social, economic, and political needs, as well as the rise of powerful elites, helped to solidify caste-based identities. This led to the emergence of a rigid and hierarchical caste structure, where Brahmins were placed at the top, and those considered "untouchables" were at the bottom.

3. Did colonialism create a solidified caste structure?

Colonial Impact: Colonialism, particularly under British rule, played a significant role in solidifying and institutionalizing caste in ways that were not as rigid before. The British colonial government, through administrative policies, census categorization, and legal systems, began to formalize caste identities in ways that had not existed before in Indian society.

• Census and Categorization: The British implemented census surveys in the 19th century that categorized Indians into distinct caste groups. This not only solidified caste identities but also began to quantify and control them, leading to a more fixed notion of caste.
• Legal Systems: British rule further entrenched caste through legal and administrative policies that reinforced caste divisions. The British relied on the caste system to organize Indian society, often privileging certain groups (e.g., using Brahmins in administrative roles) and marginalizing others. This process helped to create a more rigid and crystallized caste hierarchy.

Pre-Colonial Context: While caste existed before colonialism, the colonial encounter brought a different level of standardization and bureaucratic categorization, which deepened caste identities and social divisions.

4. Did Brahmins as a community help with the stratification of caste for personal gain or is that a myth?

Role of Brahmins in Caste Stratification: It is often argued that the Brahmin community, especially in the medieval period, played a role in maintaining and justifying the caste system for personal or political gain. Brahmins were traditionally the priestly class, and their role in administering religious and social rituals often gave them power and influence. Over time, this power may have been used to legitimize a hierarchical social order in which they were placed at the top.

Myth or Reality?: It is not entirely a myth, but the idea that Brahmins single-handedly created or perpetuated caste for personal gain overlooks the broader historical and social dynamics at play. Caste as an institution evolved due to various factors, including political, economic, and social structures that were far more complex than a single community’s actions. The Brahmins, along with other elites, may have played a significant role in the institutionalization of caste, but they were not the only agents of this process.

Influence vs. Responsibility: While Brahmins may have been influential in maintaining the caste system, it’s important to recognize that caste stratification was also influenced by larger political, economic, and social forces, including the rise of state power, economic systems that depended on agrarian labor, and the religious interpretations that evolved over time.

---

​

In summary, while Hinduism itself does not inherently perpetuate caste or discrimination, certain religious and social interpretations over time became entwined with caste-based structures. The transformation from a more horizontal caste structure to a rigid, pyramid-like system is a product of historical evolution, deeply influenced by colonial policies. The role of Brahmins in caste stratification is real, but their influence must be understood in the broader context of political, economic, and social dynamics.