Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

[sravna]

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1. The first solution I can think of is to attempt to elucidate in simple terms the knowledge of our scriptures that seems to be esoteric. Our culture needs to be first properly understood if it is to be appreciated and so followed. Without many not really understanding the import of our scriptures, we cannot except them to be faithful to it and to our community

2. It is also required to not glorify the scientific and technological accomplishments to an undue extent because if we are not under the spell of science we will be better able to appreciate our scriptures.

3. The community would do better if the members pick up the desirable attributes of the other groups and not be content with its innate qualities alone. I think especially the need to be really assertive and be able to project itself favorably to the world needs to happen.

4. The community is actually lucky in the sense there is so much importance to innovative thinking in today's very competitive world. The community's basic strengths being acquiring and disseminating knowledge it should try to gain maximum mileage out of the situation by focusing on its strengths.

5. Finally the community should try to get rid of all superficial values which allow others to readily and vigorously flog it but it should retain its core values

 

[sarang]

1. Learn and practice.
2. Practicing with full understanding is preferable, but not absolutely necessary. We swallow what the doctor prescribes without understanding an iota. Practice will kindle interest and some will move up the ladder.
3. Contribute time and or money to the cause.
4. Celebrate all functions and festivals in two parts - strictly vaidik with full involvement in a smaller group; and elaborate, flashy way to meet social norms and personal image.
6. Do not be cowed down by dissenters and argumentative thomases and tell them firmly - this is my way, my vrat and my dharma.

 

[C RAVI]

1. Learn and practice.
2. Practicing with full understanding is preferable, but not absolutely necessary. We swallow what the doctor prescribes without understanding an iota. Practice will kindle interest and some will move up the ladder.
3. Contribute time and or money to the cause.
4. Celebrate all functions and festivals in two parts - strictly vaidik with full involvement in a smaller group; and elaborate, flashy way to meet social norms and personal image.
6. Do not be cowed down by dissenters and argumentative thomases and tell them firmly - this is my way, my vrat and my dharma.

:thumb:

 

[sangom]

1. The first solution I can think of is to attempt to elucidate in simple terms the knowledge of our scriptures that seems to be esoteric. Our culture needs to be first properly understood if it is to be appreciated and so followed. Without many not really understanding the import of our scriptures, we cannot except them to be faithful to it and to our community

2. It is also required to not glorify the scientific and technological accomplishments because when our scriptures are properly understood, I think we see how substanceless will scientific knowledge be if it is to stand on its own.

3. The community would do better if the members pick up the desirable attributes of the other groups and not be content with its innate qualities alone. I think especially the need to be really assertive and be able to project itself favorably to the world needs to happen.

4. The community is actually lucky in the sense there is so much importance to innovative thinking in today's very competitive world. The community's basic strengths being acquiring and disseminating knowledge it should try to gain maximum mileage out of the situation by focusing on its strengths.

5. Finally the community should try to get rid of all superficial values which allow others to readily and vigorously flog it but it should retain its core values

Dear Shri Sravna,

I can understand your concern for the preservation of the "caste purity" of our tabra community, though in this forum somehow my name (along with those of Shri Kunjuppu and Shri Nara) has been sought to be branded as "brahmin bashers"!! When I read that the Swamiji of Shirur says, "The times are changing and we have to change with them. Maintaining purity of castes may not be feasible in the future.", I felt that the Swamiji has really understood the social dynamics today and, as a wise and well-read man, he is accepting the truth that human efforts do not succeed at times, in certain cases (like natural phenomena - earthquakes, storms, avalanches, tsunamis, etc.)

I personally desire, at this fag end of my life, for the tabra community to be at least how it was during my childhood, if not that during a previous era. But such longings cannot come true in this world, because, as you well know, Time goes only forwards during the short span of a human life time and it takes an immense gap for it to loop once again.

Your suggestion at item no.1 is very salutary but it is not sufficient to only "elucidate in simple terms the knowledge of our scriptures that seems to be esoteric"

It is necessary to go beyond, and explain the relevance of the contents of our scriptures to the present times. We cannot ignore the scientific bent of mind that our younger generations possess today, as compared to our forefathers of two or three generations ago, the pervading ideas of "liberty, equality and fraternity" which shape contemporary democratic societies and it will be necessary to convince our coming generations that "here is a set of scriptures and ideas which will ideally suit you in your life time".

I am constrained to say, however, that if any honest attempt is made in this direction, even the best scholar will fail. (I am well aware of one of our very esteemed members here repeating the claim that our upanishads are all very much like science, and they enquire into the fundamental problems just as higher science today tries to address, and that only a competent teacher - like the one that member was lucky to get - can do that. I do not know whether the said competent teacher is still alive or whether there are others like him today. This member has not been forthcoming to divulge this, nor is he himself coming forward to explain the upanishads in the way he has learnt from his guru. So, I let this claim pass.) This is because our hindu scriptures were for all practical purposes, incapable of unifying the society but was excellent in stratification and isolation of such strata; in consequence, it could not mould any strong national feelings in the populace at any point of time in history, and, on the contrary, a determined attacker always gained control and thus our land experienced a number of invasions from aliens, termed as mLEcchas in our scriptures, which had been destroyed practically throughout the land.

As regards suggestion 2, I think you are making an error. All the vedas, all the upanishads or puranas etc., could not teach us about a simple thing as "gun powder". The sun was believed as capable of irretrievably disappearing "below" unless assisted by the "arghyam" given by the dvijas which would transform themselves to vajrAyudhas and kill the asuras known as "mandEhA" and help the sun to rise again. Since our scriptures contain much that is in this genre, it will be necessary either to deliberately misinterpret these portions (which will form a sizeable portion of the scriptures) or to completely weed these and similar portions out, completely. Such a task cannot be done today without bringing the whole attempt to disrepute, even if glorification od science is completely abjured.

... to be continued.

 

[sangom]

continued. . .

This "mandEhAL ennum asurAL" is difficult to be convincingly explained today to any of our children/grandchildren studying above primary classes, and also to most of our womenfolk, irrespective of their formal education level. The insurmountable problem is why the arghyA of dwijas which is effective in the morning (and brings the sun out from the clutches of these asuras who are always waging war to destroy him) becomes singularly ineffective in the evenings and the asuras succeed, without fail, to capture the sun and take him to their netherworld so as to leave this world in darkness? A similar doubt arises regarding the purpose and need for mAdhyAhnikam vis-a-vis this mandEhAs legend.

I feel it will be difficult to convincingly explain sandhyAvandanam itself to the coming generations, in the light of the above. Similar is the position regarding tarpanams (the 96 of them for the truly orthodox brAhmanan), srAddhams, mahALaya paksham and so many other vratas and anushThAnams of ours. It requires unquestioning and absolute belief in whatever is prescribed in religion by the scriptures. Our Indian society which was such a one, has changed during the last century and more very much away from this level of unquestioning and absolute belief in religion, according to me.

3. The community would do better if the members pick up the desirable attributes of the other groups and not be content with its innate qualities alone. I think especially the need to be really assertive and be able to project itself favorably to the world needs to happen.

It is not clear what you intend by "other groups". If it refers to other denominations of brahmins, it is OK, but will it not result in our tabra heritage itself getting diluted and compromised? Also, if we succeed in projecting ourselves fabourably to the outside world, I feel the need for being assertive will not arise and may even be counter-productive. What is necessary is organizational unity, wise leadership, disciplined following, and, financial, political (and, on the sidelines, mafia) strengths, in order for any community to be successful in present day India. What can this forum do in these directions? should be our concern.

4. The community is actually lucky in the sense there is so much importance to innovative thinking in today's very competitive world. The community's basic strengths being acquiring and disseminating knowledge it should try to gain maximum mileage out of the situation by focusing on its strengths.

You are right that tabras have a strength in acquiring and disseminating theoretical knowledge but we are rather poor in the field of trade, commerce, capital generation and wise investments of capital in new enterprises and managing them grow successfully. In a manner of speaking, we have more of the Shudra tendency (service, employment) than the vaisya or kshatriya tendencies. Hence, I am doubtful as to how much "mileage" we will be able to gain in the way you suggest.

5. Finally the community should try to get rid of all superficial values which allow others to readily and vigorously flog it but it should retain its core values.

This is a riddle, for me at least. I don't understand what you mean by 'superficial values' and 'core values'. If you can elaborate it will be more useful, I think.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

I can understand your concern for the preservation of the "caste purity" of our tabra community, though in this forum somehow my name (along with those of Shri Kunjuppu and Shri Nara) has been sought to be branded as "brahmin bashers"!! When I read that the Swamiji of Shirur says, "The times are changing and we have to change with them. Maintaining purity of castes may not be feasible in the future.", I felt that the Swamiji has really understood the social dynamics today and, as a wise and well-read man, he is accepting the truth that human efforts do not succeed at times, in certain cases (like natural phenomena - earthquakes, storms, avalanches, tsunamis, etc.)

I personally desire, at this fag end of my life, for the tabra community to be at least how it was during my childhood, if not that during a previous era. But such longings cannot come true in this world, because, as you well know, Time goes only forwards during the short span of a human life time and it takes an immense gap for it to loop once again.

Your suggestion at item no.1 is very salutary but it is not sufficient to only "elucidate in simple terms the knowledge of our scriptures that seems to be esoteric"

It is necessary to go beyond, and explain the relevance of the contents of our scriptures to the present times. We cannot ignore the scientific bent of mind that our younger generations possess today, as compared to our forefathers of two or three generations ago, the pervading ideas of "liberty, equality and fraternity" which shape contemporary democratic societies and it will be necessary to convince our coming generations that "here is a set of scriptures and ideas which will ideally suit you in your life time".

I am constrained to say, however, that if any honest attempt is made in this direction, even the best scholar will fail. (I am well aware of one of our very esteemed members here repeating the claim that our upanishads are all very much like science, and they enquire into the fundamental problems just as higher science today tries to address, and that only a competent teacher - like the one that member was lucky to get - can do that. I do not know whether the said competent teacher is still alive or whether there are others like him today. This member has not been forthcoming to divulge this, nor is he himself coming forward to explain the upanishads in the way he has learnt from his guru. So, I let this claim pass.) This is because our hindu scriptures were for all practical purposes, incapable of unifying the society but was excellent in stratification and isolation of such strata; in consequence, it could not mould any strong national feelings in the populace at any point of time in history, and, on the contrary, a determined attacker always gained control and thus our land experienced a number of invasions from aliens, termed as mLEcchas in our scriptures, which had been destroyed practically throughout the land.

I think our scriptures capture timeless values and that is exactly the reason why they would be relevant any time. The real challenge is in trying to express them in a language today's youngsters can understand.

As regards suggestion 2, I think you are making an error. All the vedas, all the upanishads or puranas etc., could not teach us about a simple thing as "gun powder". The sun was believed as capable of irretrievably disappearing "below" unless assisted by the "arghyam" given by the dvijas which would transform themselves to vajrAyudhas and kill the asuras known as "mandEhA" and help the sun to rise again. Since our scriptures contain much that is in this genre, it will be necessary either to deliberately misinterpret these portions (which will form a sizeable portion of the scriptures) or to completely weed these and similar portions out, completely. Such a task cannot be done today without bringing the whole attempt to disrepute, even if glorification od science is completely abjured.

... to be continued.

Myself and probably many others with similar views are able to resonate with the thoughts of the ancient people. It is just not an empty wish that drives us to want to preserve the old values but the actual merits that we can see in them and their relevance in turn in preserving any society. There are many things that can be explained only when we take into account the existence of energy other than the physical energy. This higher world is the main focus of our ancient texts because they were able to see that it is important to perceive the actual reality and not live a life of delusion.

Scriptures as a source of knowledge may be either viewed as mumbo jumbo or as open sesame. It is sad that some have the former perception.

 

[sravna]

continued. . .

This "mandEhAL ennum asurAL" is difficult to be convincingly explained today to any of our children/grandchildren studying above primary classes, and also to most of our womenfolk, irrespective of their formal education level. The insurmountable problem is why the arghyA of dwijas which is effective in the morning (and brings the sun out from the clutches of these asuras who are always waging war to destroy him) becomes singularly ineffective in the evenings and the asuras succeed, without fail, to capture the sun and take him to their netherworld so as to leave this world in darkness? A similar doubt arises regarding the purpose and need for mAdhyAhnikam vis-a-vis this mandEhAs legend.

I feel it will be difficult to convincingly explain sandhyAvandanam itself to the coming generations, in the light of the above. Similar is the position regarding tarpanams (the 96 of them for the truly orthodox brAhmanan), srAddhams, mahALaya paksham and so many other vratas and anushThAnams of ours. It requires unquestioning and absolute belief in whatever is prescribed in religion by the scriptures. Our Indian society which was such a one, has changed during the last century and more very much away from this level of unquestioning and absolute belief in religion, according to me.

3. The community would do better if the members pick up the desirable attributes of the other groups and not be content with its innate qualities alone. I think especially the need to be really assertive and be able to project itself favorably to the world needs to happen.

It is not clear what you intend by "other groups". If it refers to other denominations of brahmins, it is OK, but will it not result in our tabra heritage itself getting diluted and compromised? Also, if we succeed in projecting ourselves fabourably to the outside world, I feel the need for being assertive will not arise and may even be counter-productive. What is necessary is organizational unity, wise leadership, disciplined following, and, financial, political (and, on the sidelines, mafia) strengths, in order for any community to be successful in present day India. What can this forum do in these directions? should be our concern.

4. The community is actually lucky in the sense there is so much importance to innovative thinking in today's very competitive world. The community's basic strengths being acquiring and disseminating knowledge it should try to gain maximum mileage out of the situation by focusing on its strengths.

You are right that tabras have a strength in acquiring and disseminating theoretical knowledge but we are rather poor in the field of trade, commerce, capital generation and wise investments of capital in new enterprises and managing them grow successfully. In a manner of speaking, we have more of the Shudra tendency (service, employment) than the vaisya or kshatriya tendencies. Hence, I am doubtful as to how much "mileage" we will be able to gain in the way you suggest.

5. Finally the community should try to get rid of all superficial values which allow others to readily and vigorously flog it but it should retain its core values.

This is a riddle, for me at least. I don't understand what you mean by 'superficial values' and 'core values'. If you can elaborate it will be more useful, I think.

Dear Shri Sangom,

I am talking about those aspects which need to be strengthened the most. There many be other aspects that need attention but those which ask for the most attention are my immediate concern.

In the present context the best occupations that may suit the brahmins are teaching, doing research than doing business. The latter would most certainly erode their values if they are not careful enough about preserving them.

By core values I mean timeless values or the values that are an asset always. For example trying not to be vengeful when you are hurt by someone but at the same time not making yourself vulnerable to unjust attacks i.e., values of forgiveness and the values of justness and so on. Any value other than those are dispensable if they are a hindrance for smooth functioning in the society.

 

[prasad1]

Why do we talk in riddles?
1. because we do not know what is acceptable core "brahmin" values.
2. because you will loose your jalara group the moment you spell it out.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

< snip >

By core values I mean timeless values or the values that are an asset always. For example trying not to be vengeful when you are hurt by someone but at the same time not making yourself vulnerable to unjust attacks i.e., values of forgiveness and the values of justness and so on. Any value other than those are dispensable if they are a hindrance for smooth functioning in the society.

Dear Shri Sravna,

If your core values are like the ones highlighted above, my sincere feeling is that such values are possessed by some human beings in all castes and in all races of the world. On the other hand among tabras/brahmins of other denominations also, there are individuals with vengefulness - of varying degrees - in their character and at the same time others who are weak & meek and are incapable of opposing attacks on them. There are no grounds to conclude that the brahmin caste has higher percentage of individuals with such and similar "core values".

I honestly and sincerely feel that if this is going to be our notion of the "core values" of brahmins/brahminism, then we need not take any steps to preserve such traits jealously. As long as humanity exists, such traits will continue to exist and we need not take any of the suggestions at 1 to 4 of the OP. As regards suggestion at item 5, you have still not given even one example of what you consider as "superficial value".

 

[Nara]

....In the present context the best occupations that may suit the brahmins are teaching, doing research than doing business. The latter would most certainly erode their values if they are not careful enough about preserving them.

By core values I mean timeless values or the values that are an asset always. For example trying not to be vengeful when you are hurt by someone but at the same time not making yourself vulnerable to unjust attacks i.e., values of forgiveness and the values of justness and so on. .

These are plain and simple human values and people like MLK exemplified them. To claim these as Brahmin values stems from Brahmin supremacist mindset.

 

[sravna]

These are plain and simple human values and people like MLK exemplified them. To claim these as Brahmin values stems from Brahmin supremacist mindset.

Dear Shri Sangom and Shri Nara,

I am not claiming these are only brahmin values but only that brahmins are expected to follow these values much more faithfully than others and so let us do that. Let us not slacken the rigor with which we are supposed to adhere to righteousness and the high standards set for us. If others also follow them it is terrific because thats exactly what an ideal world would be. But irrespective of others following these values or not we need to follow them so that others will know it is just not an empty talk we are doing but one supported by actions.

 

[prasad1]

If Brahmin Kid was brought up in a Drug lords family will have that family's values. Similarly a kid adopted by pious Brahmin family will have the values of the Brahmin family irrespective of his birth family. It all depends on the Childs's Karma (birth and environment). Please give credit to the Individual not to family, clan, state or Country.

 

[kunjuppu]

This is because our hindu scriptures were for all practical purposes, incapable of unifying the society but was excellent in stratification and isolation of such strata; in consequence, it could not mould any strong national feelings in the populace at any point of time in history, and, on the contrary, a determined attacker always gained control and thus our land experienced a number of invasions from aliens, termed as mLEcchas in our scriptures, which had been destroyed practically throughout the land.

so true sangom. i have always wondered at the fascination of our communication towards this separation, ie US vs THEM, instead of the inclusive 'US HINDUS'.

the middle castes are doing with even more vehemance and violence against the dalits, what originated in our scriptures, and for which, we used to be the guardians, till about 100 years ago, when we started to abandon all this, in favour of service for the Raj.

very good point sangom. we need to think of pan hindu umbrella, and be selective in what we propose. otherwise there would be no takers, even from our own youth, who today, are exposed to other castes and religions, from day one of school.

 

[C RAVI]

By core values I mean timeless values or the values that are an asset always. For example trying not to be vengeful when you are hurt by someone but at the same time not making yourself vulnerable to unjust attacks i.e., values of forgiveness and the values of justness and so on. Any value other than those are dispensable if they are a hindrance for smooth functioning in the society.

Shri Sravna,

I completely agree with your above statement.

Though such values are desirable for all the humans on the Earth and such values/tendencies are found in humans from all caste and creed, such values are much needed for all the folks of the Brahmin community, that faces lots of challenges both from outside & within the community.

Brahmin boys and girls who are prone to suffer some sort of social unjust, groupism, taunting, bullying by other community folks etc..etc. should be strong enough to face such challenges, should be assertive to give back a clear & sensible reply to shut the annoying folks up, to not to succumb to brainwash by others etc..etc AND still continue to be not vengeful towards those poor souls who create issues; while practicing forgiveness and the values of justness.

This most warranted tendency, that you have cited as a sample for many such core values, would help Brahmin Folks carry on their sense of interest, admiration and respect towards their culture, tradition, custom, practices, values etc..etc and to be proud to be one of the members of Brahmin community.

Once Brahmin folks attain Self Dignity, Self Respect and sense of what "true" Social Justice & Humanity is, while living along with all other existing Caste Communities in harmony, they would not succumb to systematic brain wash and would not be impacted from bullying, confusions that would misguide them to take shelter in other community, numbness in brain that would start finding fault in one self for which one is not truly related etc..etc

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom and Shri Nara,

I am not claiming these are only brahmin values but only that brahmins are expected to follow these values much more faithfully than others and so let us do that. Let us not slacken the rigor with which we are supposed to adhere to righteousness and the high standards set for us. If others also follow them it is terrific because thats exactly what an ideal world would be. But irrespective of others following these values or not we need to follow them so that others will know it is just not an empty talk we are doing but one supported by actions.

Shri Sravna,

If righteouness, i.e., sticking to the accepted standards of morality and justice, is the prime concern, then I feel we don't need the support of our scriptures at all, because the standards of morality, justice, etc., exemplified in them is very much at variance with what is right and acceptable in today's modern, civilized society anywhere in the world. For example we cannot have a Shambuka-like action, nor an Ekalavya-Drona like episode, nor a repeat of the Ahalya, Renuka, etc.,kind of justice meted out today. Nor can we have steps like Viswamitra-Sunahsepa story (aitareya brahmanam) according to which "Vishvamitra had a hundred sons, but that when he adopted his nephew Sunahsephas he proposed to make him the eldest of his sons. Fifty of them assented, and them Vishvamitra blessed that they should "abound in cattle and sons;" the other and elder fifty dissented, and them he cursed "that their progeny should possess the furthest ends (of the country)," and from them have descended many of the border tribes and most of the Dasyus. (Vi?wamitra).

What therefore may be required to preserve the core values of brahminism and thus to prevent, effectively, the community digging its own grave, is to make our children, grandchildren and so on to grow up into morally upright men and women who will be law-abiding. IC/IR marriages, not doing any of the brahminical daily routines etc., will not at all figure in such a scheme of things.

Hence we have no cause for concern and none of us need to start digging the community's grave. That is a very happy state of affairs, is it not?

 

[sravna]

Shri Sravna,

If righteouness, i.e., sticking to the accepted standards of morality and justice, is the prime concern, then I feel we don't need the support of our scriptures at all, because the standards of morality, justice, etc., exemplified in them is very much at variance with what is right and acceptable in today's modern, civilized society anywhere in the world. For example we cannot have a Shambuka-like action, nor an Ekalavya-Drona like episode, nor a repeat of the Ahalya, Renuka, etc.,kind of justice meted out today. Nor can we have steps like Viswamitra-Sunahsepa story (aitareya brahmanam) according to which

That is the beauty in something being timeless as you can adapt it according to the times.

What therefore may be required to preserve the core values of brahminism and thus to prevent, effectively, the community digging its own grave, is to make our children, grandchildren and so on to grow up into morally upright men and women who will be law-abiding.

Yes I agree

IC/IR marriages, not doing any of the brahminical daily routines etc., will not at all figure in such a scheme of things.

Hence we have no cause for concern and none of us need to start digging the community's grave. That is a very happy state of affairs, is it not?

If everyone feels that their children and grand children should grow into morally upright men and women it is indeed a very happy state of affairs.

 

[kunjuppu]

re the OP of this thread,


adherents through good common universal values, good marketing and above all inclusiveness, may be the key to its success, even though even with all this, there is no guarantee.

there is a widespread feeling here in this forum, i suspect, that the tambram community as a whole, is filled with angst guilt and loss of values. nothing could be further from the truth, especially with most of the younger generation. i think they are very happy with their current life, value stream, set of friends and above all, their ignorance of what they perceive as cumbersome and outdated rituals. that is my take on all this.

so if someone wants to bring back those values, let them think out of the box. otherwise, it will be another, frog in the well discourse, with the audience of just those who like hearing their own solutions to their own imagined issues. the community at large, outside, does not seem to care.

apathy, i think, is a bigger source of the cause of decline, than any perceived threat from the outside.

 

[sangom]

re the OP of this thread,


adherents through good common universal values, good marketing and above all inclusiveness, may be the key to its success, even though even with all this, there is no guarantee.

there is a widespread feeling here in this forum, i suspect, that the tambram community as a whole, is filled with angst guilt and loss of values. nothing could be further from the truth, especially with most of the younger generation. i think they are very happy with their current life, value stream, set of friends and above all, their ignorance of what they perceive as cumbersome and outdated rituals. that is my take on all this.

so if someone wants to bring back those values, let them think out of the box. otherwise, it will be another, frog in the well discourse, with the audience of just those who like hearing their own solutions to their own imagined issues. the community at large, outside, does not seem to care.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I have no close daily contact with the tabras residing in Chennai but I have a fairly good number of relatives about whom I know well enough. Many belonging to my generation will appear outwardly as the epitome of pure brahminism - panchakaccham +angavastram, prominent vibhutippattais in as many strategic places (some even put 12 lines -3 X 4 places) on the back , at least one rudraksha garland in the neck - gold or silver stringed according to their financial standing and this usually gets added on to a person after his retirement from service/employment, not eating onion/garlic/drumstick etc., and it can take a few more similar items. But on closer observation, most of these people will be found not to know even the sandhyavandana mantas fully, clearly and without mistake, nor the parishEchana mantram.

The younger generation gets to see through all these posing and they take increasingly to non-brahmin ways at first surreptitiously but once they get a job and start earning a reasonably good income, very defiantly and openly. You are 100% correct when you say their ignorance of what they perceive as cumbersome and outdated rituals.

Shri Sravna, it turns outnow, is not concerned about these matters but is focusing on aspects such as moral and just nature of the future generations. I wonder whether these are not common to all people and not only to brahmins or Tamil brahmins.

 

[prasad1]

It is sad commentary on members here in Praveen's house called TB site.
His vision is an all inclusive community working for betterment of all people.
This open hostility towards community members (I.E Renukaji and others). By constantly praising the the birth brahmins (I can not believe that Sravanaji has fallen this low). If you do not have the simple quality of Humility towards others and humbleness in your own vision of yourself, I believe that you have lost the moral ground of calling yourself Brahmin.
I am deeply pained to see insulating comments of this nature, being made against all who are not born brahmin. I am even more shocked that learned members with balanced view are not participating and stop this injustice.
Where is Brahmanyanji, Rajiji, Ananad Manohar ji and others.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Brahmins have to make a choice between

being true to the guna they have been attributed and in fact enhance their innate attributes by assimilating the good of others and so for example be wise and without many expectations

or

discard the above in favor of present day pragmatism and so for example be shrewd and calculative

The latter will work out in the short run but will totally demolish the identity of brahmins forever while the former helps in preserving it.

The need to preserve it is important because it represents the constructive side of human nature and hence more such humans would help the cause of humanity. Just as one person with inspiring qualities can transform a thousand or a million people, one such determined group can definitely set an example for others to emulate.

 

[sarang]

Tamil brahmanas have a distinct tradition, values, way of life and sanction of continuity and respect. It is upto them to preserve and pass on the tradition and values to future generations. This can be done only by following the anushtamams to the extent possible by each, and suitably adjusted to suit kala-desa-vartamana conditions. If some get inferiority complex when called a brahmana, so be it. They can wallow in their own chosen pit, I will follow mine.

It is ridiculous even to think that tambrams will survive only when the tradition and culture followed over thousands of years are thrown to the winds, and all practicing brahmins are branded as hypocrites and madisanjis. How idiotic and dull witted.

Even in the past, there were grades, from veda sastra vitpannars to humble cooks among brahmins. All practiced acharams to the level they understood and involved.

In today's age, let us follow in part if not fully, what our acharyas, saivite and vaishnavite, advise and recommend. There may be dilution, misunderstanding, and loss of rigour in understanding and practice, but northward movement with more involvement is sure to follow.

The so called modernist tambrams will do yeomen service to the brahmin cause, if they turn their attention elsewhere, away from brahmins.

 

[Brahmanyan]

I wish to participate in this thread on one aspect of discussion. That is, the glorification of exclusiveness of Brahmin Community. I am against the same.

I understood one thing for certain, birth is not the choice of the child. If I am born to Brahmin parents it is the choice of that unknown power of nature, not mine. This applies to all who are born in this world.

Caste is man-made division of groups. There is no sacrosanct in claiming in one Caste superior to another. All are part of the community, complimentary to each other to maintain a healthy society. There is no Caste based values by birth, instead we can call Satvic, Rajasic or Thamasic values by birth or circumstances and environment. Morality and right living are not the exclusive domain of any Caste or Community. They are common to all. Our scriptures have repeatedly shown this. Most of our Alwars and Nayanmars are not Brahmins by birth. In our own time,Swami Vivekananda, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Chitbavananda, Sri Narayana Guru and many more religious leaders are not Brahmins by birth.

Let us not forget the yeoman service by Nagarathaar, Mudaliars and rich people from other castes in maintaining our Veda Patasalas, Temples and Mutts. It is because of their financial help, today we have magnificent Hindu Temples functioning . Sri Ilayaraja, born Christian Daniel Rasaiah, turned devout Hindu gave his earnings to build one story of Sri Ranganathaswami Temple Raja Gopuram renovation in Srirangam at the advise of Sri Jeer Swami. If we read the autobiography of U. Ve. Saminatha Iyer we will understand how the society as a whole helped and supported him in his pursuit of search for ancient Tamil literature.

We can certainly preserve and follow our cultural values, the present generation with their vast exposure and honest inquisitiveness have shown real interest in learning about our Religious beliefs and practices. I have no doubt that the future of our religious values is safe in their hands.

Let us not live in an exclusive cloister because of birth. This attitude will ruin our future generation.

ray2:

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr. Brahmanyan,

I agree with your broadmindedness. But please answer this just one question. Do you support IC/IR marriages? Would you say they are desirable? Would you say that they solve all the problems of the community with respect to their isolation?

Your answer will show us how far you are ready to travel and where do you stand.

Thanks.

 

[C RAVI]

Tamil brahmanas have a distinct tradition, values, way of life and sanction of continuity and respect. It is upto them to preserve and pass on the tradition and values to future generations. This can be done only by following the anushtamams to the extent possible by each, and suitably adjusted to suit kala-desa-vartamana conditions. If some get inferiority complex when called a brahmana, so be it. They can wallow in their own chosen pit, I will follow mine.

It is ridiculous even to think that tambrams will survive only when the tradition and culture followed over thousands of years are thrown to the winds, and all practicing brahmins are branded as hypocrites and madisanjis. How idiotic and dull witted.

Even in the past, there were grades, from veda sastra vitpannars to humble cooks among brahmins. All practiced acharams to the level they understood and involved.

In today's age, let us follow in part if not fully, what our acharyas, saivite and vaishnavite, advise and recommend. There may be dilution, misunderstanding, and loss of rigour in understanding and practice, but northward movement with more involvement is sure to follow.

The so called modernist tambrams will do yeomen service to the brahmin cause, if they turn their attention elsewhere, away from brahmins.

Very well said Shri Sarang,

The same is the scenario in all other caste community and every community still is taking pride in its unique identity while living in harmony with each other.

Such a vast variations in practices between by gone forefather days and that of today are common thing in every community and for that no community is laughing on themselves and taking initiatives to get extinct. They all are living and let others live.

As Shri.Sravna has said, unless certain values of our community that are universal as well are seriously taken into consideration and adhered to, Self Respect & Self Dignity associated with our caste identity and living a justful life in our democratic society will continue to deteriorate and the community would completely turn out to be a Laughing Stock.

Especially for the Brahmins living in India among all other caste purities, amidst social & political challenges etc..etc; taking pride in their own unique existence not only outwardly but with in true self as well, while following certain customs/traditions/practices and anushtanams as feasible with true interest and respect would help them gain Self Respect and Self Dignity in our culturally diversified society.


** It terribly pains me when some of my known folks in my social circle laugh at Brahmin community, saying that - "You people have no unity among yourself and many in our community even go to the extent of degrading their own community. Your people who are degrading your own community are doing great job as that's the need of the hour because, you people have no strength socially, politically and with in the community and with such a position it doesn't make any sense in the existence of such a community.

 

[Anand Manohar]

With great reluctance I enter this thread. I have lived for to too long outside the State and the Country and hate to be
dragged into a discussion on a Caste-based society. Some of the postings here are really nauseating to me and
speak volumes of the state of of backwardness and narrow-mindedness of some folk.

I had indicated in another thread that it would be helpful to one-and-all if we just manage to shed the medieval
mind-set and adapt ourselves to changing times.

But it looks, some of the brilliant people here might attempt to re-wind the society's thinking by about a 100 years
and strongly advocate bringing back some of the social evils that we had voluntarily dumped.

I really don't see any "digging of its own grave by the community" . It's question of mind-set.

People change, perspectives change, priorities change . Nothing stays static - everything changes,
The only thing permanent is CHANGE.

If this CHANGE cannot be perceived, comprehended and imbibed we are bound to have a whole
society stuck in a time-wrap.

In my personal capacity, I would have never been able to handle so many dying, injured and dead people [ with
my bare hands] if had placed myself on a high pedestal because of an assumed superior birth !

I am neither arm-chair politician nor a text-book philosopher, but surely know the difference between
a SYMPTOM and a CAUSE.

It would better is people address the CAUSE and not just treat the SYMPTOMS.

In my opinion, the CAUSE is the mind-set.

I hope people will stop this rambling on superior births / karmas / DNAs - doesn't make sense to me.

Yay Yem