Sri Padmanabhaswamy Temple Treasure.

[zebra16]

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I understand that the Supreme Court, in its normal procedure of adjudicating a private petition by some one, has ordered to find the inventory of this temple's assets including what's in the cellars.

They will decide who is the legal owner or custodian of this wealth...

I am interested now in knowing who petitioned the SC and what do they claim here?

Any idea, please?

The petition to take inventory was pressed by the Royal Family patron only. Please go through the newslinks of Times of India and Asian Age provided by Smt HH in the first page of the thread.

Regards,

narayan

 

[Nara]

....While majority of Hindu community wants the treasure to be left with the temple, Retired Judge V.R.Krishna Iyer, however, has stated that the wealth should be used for eliminating poverty. "A national trust to be formed to manage it" He said.

Dear B sir, your analysis is very good, I appreciate it. On this point of VRK, I concede to your view on practicality, but I am with VRK in principle. The treasure belongs to nobody but the people of the erstwhile Trivancore princely state (southern Kerala?). I wish the SC in its infinite wisdom finds a way to (i) preserve the artifacts for the visual enjoyment and wonder of generations to come, and (ii) the benefits of the immense wealth flows to Aam Admi, not to some special interest.

best regards sir ....

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear B sir, your analysis is very good, I appreciate it. On this point of VRK, I concede to your view on practicality, but I am with VRK in principle. The treasure belongs to nobody but the people of the erstwhile Trivancore princely state (southern Kerala?). I wish the SC in its infinite wisdom finds a way to (i) preserve the artifacts for the visual enjoyment and wonder of generations to come, and (ii) the benefits of the immense wealth flows to Aam Admi, not to some special interest.

best regards sir ....

Dear Sri"Nara",

Well, no dispute about exhibiting the artifacts to the public. Just like Crown jewels in the Tower of London. But, I am sure you will agree that it is not prudent to distribute the national wealth of great heritage value to any one, rich or poor. Already in the name of rewriting History we have destroyed enough historical Artifacts of precious value. Our Museums stopped growing after August,15, 1947. Our Government Archeological Department is an apology for archeology. You must visit their offices attached to our Temples, to see how disinterested they are in their job. If these precious treasures are not preserved and guarded I am afraid they will find a place in Sotheby's catalogue.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[happyhindu]

I am unable to understand the silence of Shri.Sangom.I will be happy to see his views in this thread.

Sangom Sir, Where are you?

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka said in #18
Dear Raju:
Is it your observation that Thieves and Black-Marketers don't offer liberally to the deities? I have heard many of these people saying, "I prayed to this God, and told HIM that half of the bounty will be given to Him, if only He helps me in this endeavor".

Thieves and Black Marketeers may do anything in the name of deities. They may even say that the deity is a partner in their business and may offer the partners’ share from profit in the hundi kept in the temple. But that does not mean the deity has any role in the black marketing or other crimes. It is like a thief stealing something from my house and saying Yamaka is my partner and I have done a pooja in his name spending part of the money!

Spectrum "Scandal" is just in a very preliminary stage... it's quite possible nothing will come out of this to your grief!

You mean-like the Bofors case? I don’t think so. This time it is Supreme Court that is the prime mover behind this case and there lies the hope of the common man in India. You may, for all your grief and disappointment, see all those in the Tihar Jail staying put there for quite a few years. You may even have to witness with consternation the mentors also behind bars thus giving true nenjukku neethi to the common tamil. This is not the 5ps pesticides case and we do not have the large hearted MGR in the power either. Let us wait and see.

Because Arun Shouri - a BJP - has said "Raja sold what Govt of India DID NOT own in the first place".

I am not sure whether Arun Shourie said that. If he has said that he has not understood the nature of the spectrum we are speaking about. I am clear as I understand what it is all about. It appears you are either not aware of the matter or are trying to obfuscate. In any case I give here briefly what it is all about(though this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread):
Every time you make a call through your cellphone your service provider uses a certain radio frequency bandwidth to provide you the communication-whether it is just voice service, SMS service or downloads from Internet. Each service provider –like Tata, Reliance, Aitel, BSNL,Vodafone etc –are allotted a certain frequency range to use so that there is no clash between service providers lest the signals will end up as static and gibberish.All these frequency ranges form what is called a band and there are different bands in which different services operate. Army, Navy and Air Force operate in an exclusive bandwidth while civilians operate in a different bandwidth. The Government in every country regulates and allots the available limited bandwidth for radio frequency among various users and hence this is considered a scarce national asset. The Government collects a fee from the various operators for using the bandwidth. This bandwidth is also called spectrum. In India as in many other countries the Govt allots the bandwidth to users for a price depending on the demand. Because it is not a tangible asset it has no intrinsic physical value of constituent components/material etc and its value depends only on the demand for it. India which is on the threshold of prosperity has a huge demand for the spectrum and this has been proved by the phenomenal growth in the cellphone usage. The Government , as the owner of the spectrum, has the right and duty to put the assets to good use and get funds from it to invest in its effort to improve the country’s economic growth. The method adopted was either FCFS (First come first served) or an open auction depending on the size of the bandwidth available for sale and on the likely value it will fetch in the market on the date of sale. The value at call will depend mainly on the likely profit that an operator can earn over the period of operation that is offered as the package. It is here that all the fudgings have taken place. If the former method was adopted, a floor price would have been fixed by an experts committee of the Govt. in advance (taking into account the potential etc) and offers above that would have been,prima facie, eligible for consideration. In the second method it would have been an open house bidding and the highest bidder above the floor price would get the first preference etc., In the case of the spectrum sale in India this simple transparent process has been tweaked many times to suit various “conveniences” and the complaint is that the spectrum has been sold at a price much below its true worth. To determine the true worth the value at which a successfull participant(bidder) Co. sold its share holdings to another player has been taken as indicative.As this participant had not done any business at all after incorporation other than winning the spectrum the assumption that the price represents the true value and potential of the spectrum alloted appears to be reasonable and well supported by logic. On this basis the estimated loss suffered by the exchequer has been worked out by CAG. Next comes the question of the reasons for incurring such an estimated loss. That too inspite of warnings and dissenting notes by Babus in the Govt. The likely kickback and who received it are all being investigated now.

So your as well as Shourie’s(if he has indeed said what you have attributed to him) ignorance will not change one bit what actually has happened. Let us hope the Court brings out the truth and punishes not only the players but also their mentors.

The issue to me is whether A. Raja & Co got any kickbacks in this 2G transaction or not.... so far what we hear is the innuendo, conjecture and speculation from political enemies (like yourself!)... that's all, nothing more. Nothing has been established as a matter of law.

Dear Yamaka, I am not a politician and I have no enmity towards anyone. Rather I am apolitical. I am an ordinary Tamil/Indian and I love my country.The estimated loss suffered by the country is not a conjecture/innuendo/speculation as you claim. It is the amount which would have been added to the exchequer if the process of allotment had been perfect and flawless. After reading what I have given above in detail if you still do not change your claim that this is all innuendo I would like to know your reasons.

Poor CBI is working reluctantly to satisfy the ego of some of the inept personalities in India's Supreme Court.

If ‘reluctantly working’ has resulted in seeing so many stars behind the bars what would have happened if it had seriously worked?

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

Hope a trust is formed which will decide how the wealth will be utilized. Apart from all members of the royal family, there can be government representatives in it, and also NGO representatives in it. But let the head of the trust be Pujyashri Thirunal Marthanda Varma Himself.

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka said in#19

"But after the recent exposure of scams, the question is, do we really tap all the national wealth and use it wholly for the welfare of the nation? -- Brahmanyan asked.
Sir:
I take the side of the Judge.. Scams are there, for sure... we need to bring Sunlight to sanitize all the pathologies in the System... also, I strongly believe that we must tap all the national wealth and use it for the welfare of the nation.
Kerala State can use the resources to improve its Infrastructure, Hospitals, Schools and Universities, which will bring better dividends in the future.
Keeping the assets AS IS, is just a humongous waste, IMO.

and in#22

I understand that the Supreme Court, in its normal procedure of adjudicating a private petition by some one, has ordered to find the inventory of this temple's assets including what's in the cellars.They will decide who is the legal owner or custodian of this wealth...I am interested now in knowing who petitioned the SC and what do they claim here?
Any idea, please?

Tapping national wealth and using it for the welfare of the nation is an innocuous obvious statement of common truth. How do we do that? Does the Government nationalise all wealth in the nation in the hands of its citizens and then distribute it to every one in the country equally? Or Does the Govt. create conditions and facilitate individuals to endeavour and produce wealth out of wealth? The Temple trust is a legal person and Government cannot take away its assets arbitrarily and add it to its funds. The Supreme Court came into the picture because of a petition filed by an advocate in Trivandrum. His name is Mr. T.P.Sundararajan.

----------------------------------------------------

Yamaka said in#24
What Arun Shouri meant was that Govt of India should give this asset free of cost to the people so that the cost of wireless usage must be as low as possible: in deed, as Sibal said, in India it costs about 18 paisa per min of wireless usage, the lowest in the entire world... which tells me that the Policy NTP94 has already worked.

Govt. is the owner of the spectrum. It can decide anything depending on the need for wireless services in the country. It can fix a price, It can give it free, it can even offer a subsidy to the service providers depending on the need as assessed by the Govt. from time to time.

The humongous number that CAG came up with was terribly misleading to say the least... as Dr. MMS said the figure will vary wildly depending on the assumptions you make for all the variable involved... it could be Rs. 0 to Rs Several lakh crocres... the public is terribly mislead by this figure. And, this is strictly a paper loss or a phantom loss and not REAL loss in the conventional sense.
About what exactly Raja did as far as "kick-backs" is still not known... and one important figure committed suicide.Wait & watch.

The amount determined by CAG is not a frivolous or imaginary amount. It has its own logic and base and that has been explained by CAG clearly. It is the maximum that the country might have lost. This figure is not important because the Govt. is fully within its constitutional rights to cancel the auction and do a reauction though it will result in some chaos and inconveniences. What is important is that the people of this country have a right to know what was the decision making process that resulted in such a big financial loss. Next comes accountability and punishment. What is not known now need not be a lie or a non-existent truth. It is only a question of time for it to become a truth.

 

[DrBarani]

Simple:

-Don't sell it
-Don't hand it over to politicians/government
-Don't hide it
-Don't keep any secrecy about it
-Display it in a prominent place (might be right inside the temple or additional space allotted to the temple nearby) so that visitors can see and relish the heritage. Remember, those items carry the touch of some great souls of the past.

Perhaps it is even a good idea to do some forensics and record the old fingerprints, if any, from the Treasure items.

What makes India superior? It is the value given to heritage, tradition, history and culture. This incident is one classic case study on whether we value them.

 

[suraju06]

Hope a trust is formed which will decide how the wealth will be utilized. Apart from all members of the royal family, there can be government representatives in it, and also NGO representatives in it. But let the head of the trust be Pujyashri Thirunal Marthanda Varma Himself.

A better alternative would be:

1. To take a complete inventory of all the assets (including that in the unopened chamber).
2. To segregate the items with antique value from the ordinary gold ornaments and other gold utensils of day to day use.
3. To determine the value of the assets segregated as above by engaging the services of international reputed assessors.
4. To Pay this value in Indian rupees to the Trust that manages the temple after the Govt. of India takes possession of these rare and antique assets to exhibit in a national museum under proper security cover.
5. To see that the Trust is managed by able dedicated individuals of national repute without the Govt interference.
6. To enable the trust to engage in social service (as TTD) is doing.

This way the treasure will be put to proper use without eventually losing it to the private collection of a European Shipping Magnate or a Sultan of a petroleum rich country. In any case the money cannot be appropriated by the State/Central Government under any pretext.

 

[happyhindu]

6. To enable the trust to engage in social service (as TTD) is doing.

Surely you are aware that not everyone wants TTD to involve in social service. Some beleive the revenues generated by the temple shd be utilized for temple expenditure only.

Most temples were built by kings. If not for democracy, those kings as the original builders / patrons of temples wud have been the 'owners' of such temples.

Thankfully public voice and public patronage matters. However, it was always the kings and their councils, who decided how to utilize revenues generated by temples.

The Padmanabha Swamy temple itself wud have still been a private property of sorts (of the Tranvancore royals) if not for democracy. Hope they will get to have a voice in how the wealth is utilized.

Social work is a good thing, but its the job of a government to create enterprises to generate employment, build hospitals, educational institutions, etc. If real development is to come, the government shd be doing all this, not a trust.

Hopefully members of the trust will direct their expenditure in such a way that it is still part of the government-expenditure, but is handled without any of its corrupting interferences...

Anyways, once people have too much wealth, they won't think of being corrupt, i feel...

So is Kerala going to usher in the Golden Age?

 

[DrBarani]

Social work is a good thing, but its the job of a government to create enterprises to generate employment, build hospitals, educational institutions, etc. If real development is to come, the government shd be doing all this, not a trust.

Exaaaaactly my point. It is not like the government doesn't have money to do good things in the country that it has to go loot a temple property to "do service to humanity"...

 

[ShivKC]

ask Sothbeys to value it. let the world know, how great the real worth is.

set up a museum inside padmanabha swami temple , and for sure that would be a great attraction around the world, and being a museum with the highest tangible & intangible assests.

set a high entry fee on par with the any other private museums across u.s or europe and with that the temple could generate some more money.

if done, padmanabha temple would the second best stop over to any global tourist to india, next only to Agra.

the uthradom clans can no longer be the owners. after all , they were never born with golden jewels, and its all the tax money of the peoples travancore samasthanam, which includes few parts of tamilnadu also.

guys from tenkasi,kanniyakumari, are free to make a claim

 

[happyhindu]

Exaaaaactly my point. It is not like the government doesn't have money to do good things in the country that it has to go loot a temple property to "do service to humanity"...

Now that we are a democracy, everything belongs to the government. The government is the owner or atleast a part-owner.

 

[suraju06]

Now that we are a democracy, everything belongs to the government. The government is the owner or atleast a part-owner.

Government is not the owner because Govt. is secular whereas the property belongs to a particular denomination. I meant by 'social service' establishing a university like TTD has done, increasing the facilities for the devotees, contributing generally to the development of the city of Trivandrum, creating religious endowments which will promote establishment of destitutes home, old age home, hospitals etc. The only temptation that should be resisted is to distribute a largesse to the poor citizens in cash or kind as it would be wasteful.

The Government being secular will have to use the funds(if it takes over ) in a secular way. That would mean the Government will have to nationalise properties of Churches and mosques also and use those funds also in a secular fashion. This will not be possible and hence Govt. should not take over this property.

 

[ShivKC]

Exaaaaactly my point. It is not like the government doesn't have money to do good things in the country that it has to go loot a temple property to "do service to humanity"...

Doc, in this word of democracy, we often forget the precious word "WE', which represents democracy. and democracy dont leave a chance for any one to 'blame it on rio'.

 

[DrBarani]

Now that we are a democracy, everything belongs to the government. The government is the owner or atleast a part-owner.

Actually, that is the opposite. In a democracy, people (and trusts) have a right to own property. In a Communist state, all property belong to the government. Property Ownership has been the fundamental difference between these two political ideologies, not even the right to vote (which exists in both).

If government is allowed to dip its hand in the honey jar once, it is going to loot all the temples in the country, one after another. Sadly, it will not touch the fat cows in other religions.

 

[ShivKC]

Sadly, it will not touch the fat cows in other religions.

sadly, the bjp, sang parivar, rss & sena, when they were in power, did nothing about it, when they were in power, not for once, but two times. is that the beauty of democracy?

 

[srinikarthik]

You hit the nail right on the head.

This is democracy and not communism, the property belongs to the temple and it should remain there, whether it be in the same way it was kept before getting discovered or in way of a museum.

The treasure belongs to Ananth Padmanabha Swamy and not the goons sitting in the parliament trying to get hands on any thing that they can reach.

 

[renuka]

When the rulers acceded their states to the Republic of India, I guess there would have been an agreement with the Government of India with regards to the State's Temples and its properties.
Any idea about this?

 

[srinikarthik]

Comments from Chairman of the Indian Council of Historical Research, M.G.S. Narayanan

The Hindu : News / National : Treasure belongs to temple, says M.G.S. Narayanan

 

[DrBarani]

sadly, the bjp, sang parivar, rss & sena, when they were in power, did nothing about it, when they were in power, not for once, but two times. is that the beauty of democracy?

Well, double Sad it is. Of course BJP never had a true and sound majority, but can't say they have the spine to implement powerful changes. Advani's only aim has been to wage war with Pakistan. Thank goodness he never got to be PM. RSS is run by ignoramuses. I heard Sudarshan once - he couldn't even properly pronounce the name of the arch-enemy of Hinduism.... Pat Robertson. He was uttering the name "Pete Robertson". Sena is busy driving out non-marathis from mumbai, it will never get to play a national role. Somehow, I am driven to finally place my bet on Bajrang Dal as the savior!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dr.Bharani,
The activities of 'Bajrang Dal' can never get appreciation,approval or admiration from the people at large.Lot of refinement is required in their behavior and activities which borders 'Goondaism'.

 

[happyhindu]

Here are some articles on how muslims are protesting the waqf bill and RTE Act:
1) Right to Education Act against Muslim interests: AIMPLB - The Times of India
2) Muslim panel to protest July 24 against Waqf bill, RTE | ummid.com

In those days, there were seperate "religions" (seperate belief systems that did not see eye to eye). The Smrithis mention diverse groups some of which it names as Vratyas or outsiders.

As the constiution of those times, the Smrithis decided who cud own wealth, who cud not. Those who did not follow smrithi edicts were punishable (as punishments for various crimes were also mentioned).

Today our constitution, our laws are our smrithis. And our judiciary the law-givers. No longer is the judiciary a "caste".

Our judiciary cud have set a precedent for being an exemplery one. But it was very stupid of the indian judiciary to devise laws, by following some of the smrithi edicts [one ex is inheritace..thankfully women have protested and ensured that all legal heirs (both daughters and sons, and not just sons alone) have the right to property].

To the aam aadmi, the indian judiciary needs to improve. Its laws are archaic, and out of touch with present-day social requirements. Governments are corrupt because the law (judiciary) is a joke. And the arm of the law (police) is a government (read politician's) servant.

If only our politicians were not corrupt, then i feel people wud have gladly accepted government ownership.

To prevent corruptive influcences of the government, a trust is a good idea, in which the travancore royals get to be equal decision-makers as government authorities to decide where the expenditure will go.

However, there must some ways in which ownership of ancient treasure must be binding and ownership is solely that of a government body (a board under a ministry). Similarly the government shd be the sole owner of all religious institutions, irrespective of whether they are churches, gurudwaras, waqf properties or hindu properties.

Now muslims are protesting the waqf bill because they do not want revenue earned from muslim religious institutions to be utilized for hindus or for the public good.

Hindus protest revenues generated from temples being used for non-hindu activities.

All these problems (ownership of ancient wealth, ownership of religious institutions and its revenues, even river-water sharing) exists because of weak laws. Because laws were not drafted properly at the time of independence.

For a true democracy to exist, all this sectarian and religious-division must end. The government must be the defacto owner of all religious institutions. Money from gurudwaras, waqf properties (which incidentally are very wealthy), money from Chruch proeprties (very wealthy again), money from temples must go to the government treasury to be utilized for public projects.

Similarly the government must own or be a part-owner of all madrassas (there is no room for protest of the RTE Act), vedic schools, and biblical colleges. Or atleast all religious-teaching institutions must come under some common laws.

But first corruption has to be rooted out. The Aam Aadmi wud like to see Anna Hazare's Lokpal Bill passed, The PM must also be investigatable for corruption and should be sent to jail if found guilty. So also Judges, Lawyers and Policemen.

Unless this is done first, nobody will like decisions, regarding ownership of religious properties and treasures, left to the hands of politicians.

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

Lord Padmanabhaswamy should ward off the evil force called politicians from the treasure that belongs to His temple.

 

[srinikarthik]

The senior Princess also wants the tresure to be kept at a museum like the crown jewls

Senior Princess Rukmani Varma of the Royal family of Travancore insists treasure must stay within temple. | The Asian Age