Tamil Brahmins marriage

[sarang]

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Those who want to dispense with thali are free to do so; those who want to stay away from marriage are also welcome. Why challenge those who want to wear mangalsutra? Throwing challenges seems to be the hallmark of erudite people.

There was news report on bachan's kaun banega krorepathi programme. A lady participant, a widow, was wearing the mangalsutra. When bachan asked her why still wore it (indelicate, but perhaps rehearsed) the lady said - to keep bad people out.

Shri Anant,

If one honestly follows the vedic aspect of marriage, there is no mangalsutra prescribed for marriage. Are we ready to dispense with this?

 

[vimalchn]

hi everyone ...am vimal and new to this site....hw r u all doin?

 

[kunjuppu]

The younger generation want to follow our culture and that is a welcome sign. In that context only I had commented about the rituals. As for mangalasutra, perhaps our forefathers introduced this anticipating that as years pass by things will change and promiscuity will increase. Also, in olden days men never used to look women in their face It is really very sickening to see our people blindly aping Western Culture of 'living in' etc. These things pain me. Women are viewed more as 'objects' of enjoyment and not the way they were respected and given position of prominence and importance. We should take good points from all cultures but at the same time not lose our identity and our culture.

anant,

i think it may not be applicable to use a broad brush to paint 'the younger generation' as one monolithic entity with all of them trooping to know of and ape the hand me down traditions. infact, there is, i believe, an increased occurrence of inter caste and inter religious marriage these days, something unheard of 50 years ago, afaik.

also, can you please explain, how you came to understand that in olden (?) days men did not look at women. if you read any of our epics, right from kunti to seeta, women have had mind of their own and have faced the consequences of the same.

re western culture, it is considered rude here to stare at a person. we find that only in india. where staring unashamedly at girls whom they dont know, and at white girls particularly, is accepted and condoned. you do not see such behaviour in the west. i presume you have never left india for otherwise you would not be making such statements.

btw women in the west are respected more, and are treated as equals. more so than in india, where workplace and roadside harassment is common, and they have no remedial recourse. in the west, on a complaint, the police will act, the law will move thoroughly and you will get punished. much to the surprise of many indians, who come to canada and elsewhere, misbehave based on their indian 'value systems'.

 

[anant1948]

I have given instance of Lakshmana in Ramayana. When he and Rama were shown the ornaments dropped by Sita when she was abducted by Ravana by Sugriva & Hanuman, Lakshmana said he could identify the ones which Sita had worn on her feet and he said he had not seen her other ornaments worn on her neck as he only used to look at her feet and prostrate.

Law enforcing in India is very poor dur to corruption else, we would not have eve teasing. Even those committing offence while driving do not get punished in India though there are enough laws to punish them. Things are bound to change as fight is on against corruption now. We have to hope for the best.

As for the incidences in Mahabharata where Draupadi was dragged by Dusshasana, he got punished for the grave offence. It is not tht I have not gone out of India. I have visited other countries too and I know how strict the law enforcing agencies are there. Even Indians will not spit on roads in foreign countries like Singapore where one is fined instantly. But the moment the person comes back to India, he resorts to old ways with impunity. That is because the law enforcement is very poor and the agencies are corrupt. I need not say as to why cases in courts drag on for years on end without justice being meted out to the innocents.

I do not wish to state anything further on the matter.

 

[Iyer]

In Tamil Brahmin marriages, part of the ceremony is scriptural and part is traditional. A part of it is also cultural/regional pertaining only to Tamil Brahmin community. I would be glad if someone classifies the scriptural, traditional, cultural, regional etc. If there are some more classes also, please mention. For eg. the Kasi Yattirai, I reckon is more traditional than scriptural. Carrying of the bride by the maternal uncles is followed only by a section of Tamil Brahmins. The Tirunelveli Brahmins do not follow this practice while this is invariably seen among Tanjore, Trichy and Kumabakonam brahmins. The brahmins in Coimbatore and Salem hail mostly from Tanjore/Trichy/Kumabakonam or Tirunelveli or Palghat. There are no native Coimbatore or Salem Brahmins. These regions were predominantly occupied by the local Non-Brahmins especially Gounders, Saiva Vellalars, etc. Hence the practices followed by Brahmins in this part of Tamil Nadu is a mixture.

Iyer.

 

[Yamaka]

hi everyone ...am vimal and new to this site....hw r u all doin?

Hi Vimal:

Welcome..

What's up?

 

[renuka]

Shri Anant,

If one honestly follows the vedic aspect of marriage, there is no mangalsutra prescribed for marriage. Are we ready to dispense with this?

I always qoute this now when people ask me where is your mangalsutra?Good one.
I know my maternal grandmum never wore one cos their tradition doesnt have it.
Its just Saptapadi and Sindoor on the parting of hair.

 

[renuka]

I used to think why dont mangalsutra be modified and be made into a ring for both man and woman and we can exchange rings and garlands Gandharva style.
After all rings are a part of our lifestyle now and we can make it with some precious stones too.
So in this case both man and woman will have symbols of marriage.

 

[valli]

I used to think why dont mangalsutra be modified and be made into a ring for both man and woman and we can exchange rings and garlands Gandharva style.
After all rings are a part of our lifestyle now and we can make it with some precious stones too.
So in this case both man and woman will have symbols of marriage.

Do you know Renu - if one is performing a registered marriage according to the Hindu Marriage Act, the girl and the boy are just required to exchange garlands (no manthras, no thali) and the marriage is complete!!!

So much fuss among people for the rituals to follow and the "Thali"!

Kind regards

 

[renuka]

Do you know Renu - if one is performing a registered marriage according to the Hindu Marriage Act, the girl and the boy are just required to exchange garlands (no manthras, no thali) and the marriage is complete!!!

So much fuss among people for the rituals to follow and the "Thali"!

Kind regards

Out here I registered my marriage first at the Registration Department and got married traditional method only after 6 months.
So I celebrate 2 wedding anniversaries..my registration and religious anniversaries.

You know Valli..it was so funny Ok during the registration..it was like some christian marriage where the registrar of marriage will ask you "do you take so and so to be your lawfully wedded husband" and I was wondering why is he sounding like some christian priest and I didnt answer him and he repeated his question again and still it didnt get into my brain that I had to answer him and this time everyone was looking at me and then i thought OMG I didnt answer yet and said Yes.
Its just signing and witnesses were my Dad and FIL.

I dont mind the mantras etc but somehow the Thali part I am not too fond of cos man dont get to have any symbol of marriage and walk around bare necked.
So that why the exchange of rings would be a good idea.
In fact I always tell my husband that how nice if I can make the M portion of the Thali into a ring and wear it and it will be a good weapon for self defence and will leave an impression on anyone's face.!!LOL

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Dear Kunjuppu


i am still waiting for atleast one marriage in my lifetime, where the groom, refuse to change his mind on the plead of the potential fil, and keeps on going and never returns to the mantapam



Classic!

May be many men later in their life wish they did it at the Mandap :loco:

 

[kunjuppu]

I used to think why dont mangalsutra be modified and be made into a ring for both man and woman and we can exchange rings and garlands Gandharva style.
After all rings are a part of our lifestyle now and we can make it with some precious stones too.
So in this case both man and woman will have symbols of marriage.

renus,

this is indeed a practice adopted by indians in canada of late.

first the girl gets the diamond engagement ring, when the boy proposes to her.the bigger the size of the 'rock', the bigger her prestige with her friends and relatives

then at wedding time, wedding bands which are identical looking rings, maybe void of any stones, though not necessarily, are exchanged. another version of this wedding ring, is the cumulative one, with add on matching bands with significant anniversaries.

it should be emphasized that this is purchased by the groom and not the bride.

 

[kunjuppu]

May be many men later in their life wish they did it at the Mandap :loco:

siva,

by then it would be too late. n'est pas?

btw, i am curious about the 'loco' . is it attributed to me, ie that i am loco to come up with a musing like such? thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

Do you know Renu - if one is performing a registered marriage according to the Hindu Marriage Act, the girl and the boy are just required to exchange garlands (no manthras, no thali) and the marriage is complete!!!

So much fuss among people for the rituals to follow and the "Thali"!

Kind regards

valli,

i think, personally, தாலி முள் வேலி.

mrs K immediately after our wedding had the option to wear it or not. which announcement ofcourse i made publicly, and my concerned mother immediately sought reassurance from the newly minted mrs K if she had faith in தாலி, to which the new dil replied a resounding 'YES'.

what happened later, is another story

 

[sangom]

May be many men later in their life wish they did it at the Mandap :loco:

In the vedic days, a brahmachari on being certified by his Guru as having completed his education (vedic learning) used to return to his home. At the outskirts of the village, he used to be honoured with madhuparka and given a skin of krishnamriga, as signs of honour. Thereafter he would go to Kasi or some other centre for securing knowledge in philosophy and all that. In the course of this trip, fathers of girls would approach the bachelor with offers of their daughter in kanyadaan. It is the relic of this ancient phenomenon which has now become the farce that is "Kasi yatrai". It can eminently be dispensed with altogether and some amount representing the cost of chappals, umbrella, visari, the arisi+paruppu moottai and other paraphernalia could be given to the groom if so agreed upon. (Some 50 years or so ago we used to have olakkuDai - made of palm leaf and methiyaTi made of wood, instead of the normal umbrella and leather ( a proscribed item) chappals, for the Kasi yaatrai.)

Many of the bachelors who married in those ancient vedic days also must have regretted not heading to Kasi

 

[Subhalakshmi]

This is nice, I have read some of the inputs and was laughing happily, no controversy and just happy conversation.. I like that.. hehehehee!!!

Well having the thali is again the woman's right to chose whether to wear it or not.. it is the commitment and love you feel for each other even without any symbol is more important to me..

I used to be quite traditional and wore the thali for nearly thirty years.. now it is my choice whether I want it or not.. funny I did not even remove it for exray.. anyway that was then..

this is a funny story, a few years ago, my cousin and his wife were shopping and she was looking for some tops and a tall heavy set Security officer came to her and said " that would look great on you", she immediately said, " this is not for me it is for my daughter" and he replied " that's ok, you can still wear it" she got so scared and she told him " my husband is around somewhere here, I have to go" and the guy was surprised and said " O I am so sorry I thought you were single or available, since you did not have a ring on your finger, I wanted to ask you out" She then realized what had happened and said something to him about tradition and ran to my cousin. The very next day she took him to a jewelery store and bought herself a ring and bought him one and insisted he wear it too.. (they both are quite fair and very good looking and this happened when she was in her mid forties)

When she said this I was laughing and then it hit me, no matter even if you wear thali , it is hidden and not exposed, so according to the custom here, men do notice the left hand ring finger and assume that the woman is not married..So now I do wear a plain ring, not that anybody is going to try to pick me up )

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

An interesting thread. Although I have not attended many weddings, here are few observations.

In one wedding, during 'Mangalya Dharanam', although the bride was slim and light, bride's father sat on a broad-topped stool. The bride backed on the stool, slightly sitting, but mostly standing.

In my wedding, I refused to go through 'Kasi Yathra'- not because I was forward thinking though! I was a very serious guy in those days... I didn't want to give an opportunity for the bride's father to call off the wedding! Just imagine, if I said 'I am going to Kasi'... He was against the proposal... he would have possibly given me a one-way ticket to Kasi! Besides that, I was well known to stand by my words.. I could have been held on my word and packed off to Kasi! (But eventually it did happen on request from others just for the fun. Officially it was deleted. Bride's father or groom's father didn't take part).

So, what happens if the groom actually took off abandoning the wedding? One guy did that.... not during 'Kasi Yathra'; he didn't get that far! He couldn't handle the 'focus' during 'Janvaasam'... after that, he vanished (didn't even had dinner. Actually that's when his absence was noticed). So, what happened? About 20 guys fanned out in all directions to find this guy.. he was found in Tirupathy in the early hours the following day, and was 'convinced' to comeback! (This is the bit to quench Sowbagyavathy Valli's curiosity).

At long last, my son found himself a bride. Between the two families, we are still talking about the wedding. If we put it forward with reasons, people take them on board. Our son, after discussing with us, the parents, requested so many deletions, the wedding rituals may not last more than two hours! But then, we are requesting so many 'socialising additions' too. The final program list is not done yet. But, there is no ' Kasi yathra' though; nor the bride would sit on anyone's lap either (unfortunately, her father is nomore. He would have enjoyed our requests).

In my opinion, the whole lot of wedding ceremony, be it 5 days event or the ultra short half day event, is just for the society. None of the ritual is required. During one of the meetings, I said to the bride to be girl..'you like our son; he likes you.. we are conducting this wedding as an announcement for the socity; but in reality, you are welcome to our place anyday to start living your life with our son!'... Bride's mother just sat in stunned slience when I was saying this!

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

"but in reality, you are welcome to our place anyday to start living your life with our son!'... Bride's mother just sat in stunned slience when I was saying this! " post 42.

Hello Raghy:

I will remember this line and use it when my kids find a life partner!

I liked it.

 

[sangom]

This is nice, I have read some of the inputs and was laughing happily, no controversy and just happy conversation.. I like that.. hehehehee!!!

Well having the thali is again the woman's right to chose whether to wear it or not.. it is the commitment and love you feel for each other even without any symbol is more important to me..

I used to be quite traditional and wore the thali for nearly thirty years.. now it is my choice whether I want it or not.. funny I did not even remove it for exray.. anyway that was then..

this is a funny story, a few years ago, my cousin and his wife were shopping and she was looking for some tops and a tall heavy set Security officer came to her and said " that would look great on you", she immediately said, " this is not for me it is for my daughter" and he replied " that's ok, you can still wear it" she got so scared and she told him " my husband is around somewhere here, I have to go" and the guy was surprised and said " O I am so sorry I thought you were single or available, since you did not have a ring on your finger, I wanted to ask you out" She then realized what had happened and said something to him about tradition and ran to my cousin. The very next day she took him to a jewelery store and bought herself a ring and bought him one and insisted he wear it too.. (they both are quite fair and very good looking and this happened when she was in her mid forties)

When she said this I was laughing and then it hit me, no matter even if you wear thali , it is hidden and not exposed, so according to the custom here, men do notice the left hand ring finger and assume that the woman is not married..So now I do wear a plain ring, not that anybody is going to try to pick me up )

Smt. Subhalakshmi,

You will agree that this thaali is a particular south Indian custom, not found in much of the rest of India. It is, thus, an aberration from the vedic norms of brahmin marriage.

In ancient South India, (just as in the north) woman was a movable asset of the male - father, then husband and then son. Nubile women were attractive "asset" items and just as the people those days used to enjoy "cattle rustling", they also enjoyed and prided themselves in "women rustling"; the kings of the Tamil Sangam age are reportedly depicted as having taken immense interest in both whenever they felt like it, in others' territory. As part of these raids the land also became theirs.

When life for woman was such, it seems the practice was to make a sort of "locket-like" item out of dried palm-leaf, write on it something to mean "property of ..." to show that a young or middle-aged woman was the property of someone and any stealer will have to face opposition from the rightful owner. This locket used to be tied to the woman's neck with a thread, much like cattle are labelled today by financing banks.(This might have helped, to a marginal extent imho, the normal day-to-day life but not when there was a rustling.) Still, this practice was widely prevalent, both among the lowly farm workers or Shanars (who also used to climb the palm trees and make toddy) as also the more well-off sections of the Dravidian society.

Palm is called taaLi (தாளி) in Sanskrit and when the north indians came down south and settled here they copied this practice and made thaali from palm-leaf, copper, silver or gold according to their status. And that is the story of தாலி; the much famous மாங்கல்யம் தந்துனானேன mantra is also not from any veda; it is a verse composed for the purpose.

Hence, modern people can very well dispense with the Taali.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

siva,

by then it would be too late. n'est pas?

btw, i am curious about the 'loco' . is it attributed to me, ie that i am loco to come up with a musing like such? thank you.

I just wanted to put up a smiley - no special reason.

 

[Servall]

In the vedic days, a brahmachari on being certified by his Guru as having completed his education (vedic learning) used to return to his home. At the outskirts of the village, he used to be honoured with madhuparka and given a skin of krishnamriga, as signs of honour. Thereafter he would go to Kasi or some other centre for securing knowledge in philosophy and all that. In the course of this trip, fathers of girls would approach the bachelor with offers of their daughter in kanyadaan. It is the relic of this ancient phenomenon which has now become the farce that is "Kasi yatrai". It can eminently be dispensed with altogether and some amount representing the cost of chappals, umbrella, visari, the arisi+paruppu moottai and other paraphernalia could be given to the groom if so agreed upon. (Some 50 years or so ago we used to have olakkuDai - made of palm leaf and methiyaTi made of wood, instead of the normal umbrella and leather ( a proscribed item) chappals, for the Kasi yaatrai.)

Thanks for providing the true story behind it Mr.Sangom sir, sincerely, did you ever think of writing a compendium of these rituals and meaning?

But seriously folks, we all kmow now that these rituals are BS but then who cares? If it is done in good humour to create laughter without too much expense to either side, why not have it? Can you imagine when this couple are in their old age and watching a video of their wedding, how much joy would bring it for them? In cases if one of the spouses is passed on, what pleasant memories it would create? If the bond between the daughter and the father is so intense and they enjoy doing the kanyadhanam that way, so what? I am all for it and would do it in a new york minute!!

Now if you are serious about questioning all the rituals, how about the first night part? ha? When the guys start counting the days for the marriage, it is not necessarily for the wedding part, it is more for the first night part!! I dont know about women, I dare ask how many men here would question that ritual...

 

[sangom]

Thanks for providing the true story behind it Mr.Sangom sir, sincerely, did you ever think of writing a compendium of these rituals and meaning?

But seriously folks, we all kmow now that these rituals are BS but then who cares? If it is done in good humour to create laughter without too much expense to either side, why not have it? Can you imagine when this couple are in their old age and watching a video of their wedding, how much joy would bring it for them? In cases if one of the spouses is passed on, what pleasant memories it would create? If the bond between the daughter and the father is so intense and they enjoy doing the kanyadhanam that way, so what? I am all for it and would do it in a new york minute!!

Now if you are serious about questioning all the rituals, how about the first night part? ha? When the guys start counting the days for the marriage, it is not necessarily for the wedding part, it is more for the first night part!! I dont know about women, I dare ask how many men here would question that ritual...

Shri Servall,

Religion at least for tabras has been a "buffet" service - take what you want and leave the rest. So, if by chance the "fashion" tomorrow becomes marriage without kasi yatrai, kanya sitting on her father's lap and somethings else too, such marriages will become sanctified by the self-appointed orthodoxy living at that future time and if you were to talk about some of today's customs you will be viewed as too rigid and if someone else wanted some reformation, that person will be dubbed "atheist", "brahmin basher", etc., by the very same self-appointed orthodoxy of that time.

Coming to "First Night" (FN), a brahmin is not allowed first night! If you read the Dharmasastras carefully, you will find that the first night has to be on the fourth night and that too towards the second part of the second half of the night. The "Sesha homam" is supposed to be done during the first half of this night (before midnight) and that was the reason for tabras having had நாலுநாள் கல்யாணம் in the olden days! If you care to read the mantras to be uttered during the FN, you will feel having seen some porno stuff! But in some Dharma sastras an agent is allowed to chant those mantras on behalf of the husband; whether the agent will stand beside the cot or outside the room, is not clearly written into the book

Today, from what little knowledge I have neither the bride nor the groom is usually so eager for the FN experience; almost all girls and boys have 'experience'. So it is a very different world today.

Personally, I do not feel elated when I go through the old marriage photos of my wife & self; it was a very happy event then but reenactment today, even in my imagination, does not make me happy. So, adding more and more கேலிக்கூத்து in marriage is not going to add to the nostalgic value, imho.

 

[Subhalakshmi]

Smt. Subhalakshmi,

You will agree that this thaali is a particular south Indian custom, not found in much of the rest of India. It is, thus, an aberration from the vedic norms of brahmin marriage.

In ancient South India, (just as in the north) woman was a movable asset of the male - father, then husband and then son. Nubile women were attractive "asset" items and just as the people those days used to enjoy "cattle rustling", they also enjoyed and prided themselves in "women rustling"; the kings of the Tamil Sangam age are reportedly depicted as having taken immense interest in both whenever they felt like it, in others' territory. As part of these raids the land also became theirs.

When life for woman was such, it seems the practice was to make a sort of "locket-like" item out of dried palm-leaf, write on it something to mean "property of ..." to show that a young or middle-aged woman was the property of someone and any stealer will have to face opposition from the rightful owner. This locket used to be tied to the woman's neck with a thread, much like cattle are labelled today by financing banks.(This might have helped, to a marginal extent imho, the normal day-to-day life but not when there was a rustling.) Still, this practice was widely prevalent, both among the lowly farm workers or Shanars (who also used to climb the palm trees and make toddy) as also the more well-off sections of the Dravidian society.

Palm is called taaLi (தாளி) in Sanskrit and when the north indians came down south and settled here they copied this practice and made thaali from palm-leaf, copper, silver or gold according to their status. And that is the story of தாலி; the much famous மாங்கல்யம் தந்துனானேன mantra is also not from any veda; it is a verse composed for the purpose.

Hence, modern people can very well dispense with the Taali.

Sangom sir,

I might have been very well in the same boat as the woman of those long gone days.. not much different... Men love possessions, and wife, coming from a well known established family, so called Khandhan in hindi and also if she is fair and beautiful adds to his pride.. The man considers himself the envy of the whole community particularly of the other male species.. His pride goes overboard, so the wife is a nothing more a fine piece of art of furniture that he possessed and owns..

Well that in itself is another topic.. What I said here not to hurt all the respected men in this forum, but just my observation in life, I have seen too much....

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Servall, Greetings.

But seriously folks, we all kmow now that these rituals are BS but then who cares? If it is done in good humour to create laughter without too much expense to either side, why not have it? Can you imagine when this couple are in their old age and watching a video of their wedding, how much joy would bring it for them? In cases if one of the spouses is passed on, what pleasant memories it would create? If the bond between the daughter and the father is so intense and they enjoy doing the kanyadhanam that way, so what? I am all for it and would do it in a new york minute!!

In most of the weddings, one simple fact gets overlooked by almost everybody. That is, during every wedding, groom is the hero and the bride is the heroine. Since it is the ceremony of their union, a wedding should be conducted in the way the bride and groom like to have it. In most of the weddings, if the elders of the groom and the bride are richer and more influential than the 'Vadhyar', then the wedding takes place as the 'elders' desire; if the 'vadhyar' is more influential, then the 'vadhyar' set the rules and bully others to follow.

If the rituals are not forced, then we may say they are done in good humor...lucky few may even have that! If we are to enjoy watching the wedding photographs at a later date, then it should have taken place as we desire it to take place. I don't think we can 'enjoy' watching our going through meaningless rituals. (How many of us 'viewed' Arundhathi star in the bright morning daylight?).

Now if you are serious about questioning all the rituals, how about the first night part? ha? When the guys start counting the days for the marriage, it is not necessarily for the wedding part, it is more for the first night part!! I dont know about women, I dare ask how many men here would question that ritual...

I questioned that meaningless ritual. As Sri.Sangom Sir mentioned, our 'first Night' was organised on the 'fourth night' only. Well, it can happen only when the girl and the boy are physically comfortable with each other. In spite of our knowing each other for about 6 months, it took a while before we were physically comortable with each other.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sangom Sir, Greetings.

I read your message with interest about the bride being considered as 'a possession' by the groom. In my opinion, it works both ways. The bride also considers the groom as a 'catch'. There is much more to it than the simple explnations, if the girl and the boy are 'free spirits'.

Cheers!