Teaching Morals Of Ramayana To Kids

[ozone]

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I wonder in what intent post #168 is any way different from post #163

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

We the elders are at a loss. to explain and give convincing answers to the questions posed by youngsters because we,people who have read Ramayana in the original texts, have just read in a mechanical way without understanding the thathparyam, the philosophy behind the various incidents explained in the great epic.We would have been in a better position today have we listened to the katha kalekshepam of veterans like Sengalipuram Anantharama Deekshithar,Embar Vijayaraghavachariar and relate our understanding with their discourse.
Even today we have with us learned people like Velukkudi Krishnan who will be able to give convincing explanation to the present generation.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

We the elders are at a loss. to explain and give convincing answers to the questions posed by youngsters because we,people who have read Ramayana in the original texts, have just read in a mechanical way without understanding the thathparyam, the philosophy behind the various incidents explained in the great epic.We would have been in a better position today have we listened to the katha kalekshepam of veterans like Sengalipuram Anantharama Deekshithar,Embar Vijayaraghavachariar and relate our understanding with their discourse.
Even today we have with us learned people like Velukkudi Krishnan who will be able to give convincing explanation to the present generation.

Sir, Please post the explanations here for the benefit of the members. Explanations should make sense to the younger generation brought up in U.S.

 

[sarang]

Nothing wrong. He is only expressing his anguish and his love for his wife while suffering the pangs of separation. He also says 'aatmanam manusham manye'. even though he is seen and revered and reminded by others that he is an avatara.

Such cheap jibes will not fetch anything good or laudable.

Rama is not only angry but also is portrayed by vaalmeeki, as a person who was very much overcome by lust. So he (Rama) has been shown as seeing Sita's thighs in the trunk of the Kakubha tree and in banana stalks, her breasts in the ripened fruits of the palm tree, etc.

 

[sarang]

तदहं यष्टुमिच्छामि शास्त्रदृष्टेन कर्मणा।
कथं प्राप्स्याम्यहं कामं बुद्धिरत्रविचार्यताम्।।1.8.9।।

Dasaratha putra-kama-ichchati and he and his revered ministers discuss, decide and move on.

Incidentally Vaalmeeki does not talk about the Putrakameshti yaga.

 

[tks]

To all those who had strong criticism of my post #154:


My post may make you think that it was done with arrogance.
I can fully understand that perception and received expected responses from a few


I try to post on serious topics in a proactive manner and not in a reactive manner. In other words it was a deliberately worded post. If anyone is curious please read on.




I admire Sri Sangom's ability to cite various topic areas, write eloquently and how he expresses his views on many subjects. Even in the recent response to my post he quickly provided the exact verse I was referring to in passing. My point is that all these display of skills in his posts do not reveal real scholarship in my opinion. He may be scholarly but his posts that I have come across do not reflect it. He may not have claimed he is a scholar just like I never did.


Why pick on Sri Sangom's post since I actually like his style of measured arrogance if I can say that. I do not pick him because he expresses views that borders on indecency sometimes in my judgement.He is entitled to his opinion like we all are.


The reason is because by his style of being careful with references in Sanskrit supported by accurate English rendering he provides a casual reader a view that he is scholarly which helps to pass along vile interpretations that are downright incorrect. Now if one were to take him on with specific details each post will expand to many more referneces that may be equally irrelevant.


If there was genuine scholarship and understanding of the 'fundas' then I would be pouring all over his writing to understand the real truth. But that part is missing - and he is as confused as all the rest of us. <edited>


I want him to continue writing and not change his style because of my post. I do look forward to scanning them and he does make the forum discussions lively by his views.




Once we strip away the notion that precision in writing a verse in a post does not translate to precision in one's understanding or their interpretation then their view becomes nothing special. We will not react as much.


Let us say we have an audience who is semi literate in mathematics but they admire that the subject is complex. It will be as if I come and draw a lot equations to gain some credibility but express ideas that are complete nonsense.


To take a person of Sri Sangom's earned stature it was necessary to come across as arrogant in my post though I had not consciously intended that way while writing post #154.




A Note about Humility,weakness, courage, Arrogance in my next post ...when I get a moment.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

To all those who had strong criticism of my post #154:


My post may make you think that it was done with arrogance.
I can fully understand that perception and received expected responses from a few


I try to post on serious topics in a proactive manner and not in a reactive manner. In other words it was a deliberately worded post. If anyone is curious please read on.




I admire Sri Sangom's ability to cite various topic areas, write eloquently and how he expresses his views on many subjects. Even in the recent response to my post he quickly provided the exact verse I was referring to in passing. My point is that all these display of skills in his posts do not reveal real scholarship in my opinion. He may be scholarly but his posts that I have come across do not reflect it. He may not have claimed he is a scholar just like I never did.


Why pick on Sri Sangom's post since I actually like his style of measured arrogance if I can say that. I do not pick him because he expresses views that borders on indecency sometimes in my judgement.He is entitled to his opinion like we all are.


The reason is because by his style of being careful with references in Sanskrit supported by accurate English rendering he provides a casual reader a view that he is scholarly which helps to pass along vile interpretations that are downright incorrect. Now if one were to take him on with specific details each post will expand to many more referneces that may be equally irrelevant.


If there was genuine scholarship and understanding of the 'fundas' then I would be pouring all over his writing to understand the real truth. But that part is missing - and he is as confused as all the rest of us. Except that his posts display a vile interpretation on any subject often done with mischief in my view.


I want him to continue writing and not change his style because of my post. I do look forward to scanning them and he does make the forum discussions lively by his views.




Once we strip away the notion that precision in writing a verse in a post does not translate to precision in one's understanding or their interpretation then their view becomes nothing special. We will not react as much.


Let us say we have an audience who is semi literate in mathematics but they admire that the subject is complex. It will be as if I come and draw a lot equations to gain some credibility but express ideas that are complete nonsense.


To take a person of Sri Sangom's earned stature it was necessary to come across as arrogant in my post though I had not consciously intended that way while writing post #154.




A Note about Humility,weakness, courage, Arrogance in my next post ...when I get a moment.

I had asked you in my post #162

Please let us know what are the pre-requisites and what are the proper conditions.

I am sorry. But you have not replied. You may claim that I will not understand your answers.

This is so typical of many Brahmin Scholars. They evade any issue by stating that "You will not understand, because you are not qualified" which means that they do not know the answer. Or they are not able to counter your argument. And a lot of verbiage like a Pravachanam.

 

[sarang]

But Sri Ramanujan is on record saying that his knowledge, equations and solutions (most of the time without actually solving them) were given to him by Namagiri thayar.

எறும்பு ஊர ஊரக் கல்லும் தேயும் is a Tamil adage and means that even an ant can scratch a stone by continuously moving on it. In a similar way, a human being will be able to unravel any tough problem relating to this world/universe if he/she is bent upon finding that solution with single minded concentration and sincerity. I do not believe in any "divine revelation" in the sense that a superior God sitting high above chooses a fit person and tells him/her the solution, but if we consider that something which never occurred to anyone else till then, has struck one particular person's intellect, to be divine revelation, then we ought to seriously consider why that "divine something" has been singularly partial to the white people since centuries, and why nobody from this land of apaurusheya vedas, Narayana and His vaak, etc., seem to fare very badly. Is God anti-Indian, anti-Hindu?

If so, is it not time we rethink our religion?

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Some answers to Sri. Gopal Rao,

This site provides some of the morals which can be derived from Ramayana.

http://www.helium.com/items/1173599...ana-morals-in-ramayana-dasaratha-sita-sugriva

Avoid the issues mentioned by many of the members.

General reply is that they show that even an ideal King like Rama could Err at times.

 

[prasad1]

Lessons found in the Ramayana - by C.V.Rajan - Helium

I read the link you provided.
I get the feeling that article says that it is perfectly normal to rebel against parents behavior, or secretly condemn parents behavior.
I guess our children learn that lesson from society. (just an observation).

 

[C RAVI]

There are real life stories of intelligent, careful and good mannered children rebelling against their parents, going against their ignorance, fear etc and excelling in their life. These Children rebelled against their parents to achieve something good and inturn to keep their parents happy and comfortable. Such good children actually don't hate and discard their parents, though they had to rebell and face hinderances due their parents. They still carry their true respect, love and care towards their parents. And parents too could realize how wrong were they in restricting their children out of ignorance and now how great are their children.

Defenitely, the children who all are instilled with good moral values properly, in general and refering to epic stories such as Ramayana and Mahabharatha can be expected to develop good characteristics in all the aspects of their individuality, good/positive prespectives of their life and be a good human in the society.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Iquote you:

6. हा बु हा बु हा बु . . .

हा बु हा बु हा बु भा भं भं भं भं भं भा भं भं भं भं भं भा भं भं भं भं भं ।
हा बु हा बु हा बु ब्रह्म जज्ञानं प्रथमं पुरस्तात् ।
वि सीमतस्सुरुचॊ वेन आ वात् ।
स बुध्निया उपमा अस्य वा यि स्थाः।
सतस् च योनिं असतस् च वा यि वः ।
हा बु हा बु हा भु भा भं भं भं भं भं भा भं भं भं भं भं भा भं भं भं भं भं ।
हा बु हा बु हा वु वा।
ब्रह्मा देवानां भाति परमे व्योमन् ब्रह्मा देवानां भाति परमे व्योमन् ब्रह्मा देवानां भाति परमे व्योमान् ।

You have quoted the above passage from Sama veda samhita to prove a point that vedas have irrelevant information or just meaningless words. If your intention in quoting the above passage was any thing other than this, you have not cared to come out with your finding despite my asking you. So presuming that your contention is to say that the above words make no meaning I proceed to counter your argument.

1. When I hear the old song "hgam(this being a urdu word it is difficult to bring the exact pronounciation in english) se ab ghabraana kaisa hgam sow baar mila" I say wah. When Jagjitsingh sings "mujhe ithna pyar na karo mein nashe mein hoon" i say again wah wah. Now what does this sound wah mean? Not only me there are many people who use this word when they listen to a beautaiful piece of lyric set to nice music.

2. In English we use the term lo (not lol used in conversation on the net and in sms) like when we say "Lo and behold! it was all light when God said Edison".

3. In Tamil we use ஐயோ, அடடா, சபாஷ் etc in conversation to express a certain feeling.

The feeling expressed will be understood only when you read this Lo, wah, ஐயோ etc in a context. If you look at these words in isolation they are all meaningless by themselves. Similarly the haa vu, haa vu, bham bham etc are expressions of exclamation. They are to be read in the context as words of exclamation. This is what I learnt from a sanskrit/vedic scholar about haa vu haa vu etc., Now please let me know whether this makes sense to you.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

What is good moral values?

good moral values

It is very good to write in flowery language some mumbo jumbo. Whose values are we talking about? Do we follow Dasratha's values or Rama's values? If Rama thought Dasratha's values were not good, why did he not have the courage to point out like Nachiketa did.

You can extract good moral values from Esops fables, and jataka Kathas, just as from Ramayan and Mahabhratas. It is your ability to extract the values you want. There is lot of other stuff that you would want to gloss over.
Ultimately it boils down to you to synthesis your values. No one i repeat No one source can give you all good values, that you can apply in today's society.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sarmah,

This is what you asked:

Please let us know what are the pre-requisites and what are the proper conditions.

Using my right to intervene I try to give an answer to your question presuming that it is addressed in general to the forum with real interest in getting an answer.

The pre-requisites and proper conditions are these:

நல்ல புத்திசாலியாக நல்லாரோடு இணங்குமவனாக, நல்ல ஒழுக்கம் உடையவனாக,நல்லவற்றை அறிய விரும்புமவனாக, குருவுக்கு பணிந்திருப்பவனாக, துரஹங்காரமற்றவனாக, ஆசார்யனை அடிபணிந்திருப்பவனாக, தன் சந்தேகங்களை ஆசார்யனிடம் கேட்டுத்தெளிவு பெறுமவனாக,மனதையும் இந்திரியங்களையும் அடக்கியவனாக, பொறாமை சற்றுமின்றி ஆசார்யனைச்சரணடைந்தவனாக, சாஸ்த்திரங்களில் நம்பிக்கை உள்ளவனாக, பலவிதங்களிலும் பரீக்ஷிக்கப்பட்டவனாக, நன்றியுள்ளவனாக இருக்கும் சிஷ்யனுக்கு ஆசாரியன் தத்துவங்களை கற்பிக்கக் கடவன்.

Similarly the student also is given the right to choose an Acharyan:

நல்ல ஆசார்ய பரம்பரையில் கற்று வந்தவனும், புத்தி சஞ்சலமற்றவனும், எவ்விதக்குறையும் இல்லாதவனும், வேதாந்த சாஸ்த்திரம் பயின்று அதன் பொருளாகிய ப்ரஹ்மத்தினிடத்தில் நிலை பெற்றவனும், சத்துவ குனம் படைத்தவனும்,சத்திய வாதியும், காலத்துக்கேற்ற பெரியோரொப்பிய ஒழுக்கம் உடையவனும், பெருமை, பொறாமை முதலிய துர்க்குணங்கள் கழிந்தவனும், புலனடக்கம் செய்தவனும்,தொடர்ந்து உதவுகிறவனும், தயாளுவும், தவற்றைக்கண்டிப்பவனும் தன்னோடு பிறர் நலத்தையும் நாடுபவனும் ஆன ஆசார்யனைச் சிஷ்யன் தேர்ந்தெடுக்கவேண்டும்.

About the relationship between the two this is said:

உள் இருளைக் கடிவதனாலும், பாவங்களை விலக்குவதாலும், சிஷ்யனைத்தன்னைப்போல் ஆக்கும் உதார குணத்தாலும், கர்மமடியாக வந்த ப்ராஹ்மணாதி ஜன்மங்களைப் போக்கும் உயர்ந்த ஜ்னான ஜன்மத்தை தரும் பெருமையினாலும், குளிரக்கடாக்ஷிப்பதாலும்,தங்கு தடையின்றி கருணை கூர்வதாலும், என்றும் தனக்கு ஸ்வாமியாதலாலும், ஆசார்யனை சிஷ்யன் என்றும் கைம்ம்மாறு கருதாமல் கடவுளைப்போலே வழிபடுதல் தகும்.

Original in Sanskrit-Nyaaya vimsathi-by Swami Desikan.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

Iquote you:



You have quoted the above passage from Sama veda samhita to prove a point that vedas have irrelevant information or just meaningless words. If your intention in quoting the above passage was any thing other than this, you have not cared to come out with your finding despite my asking you. So presuming that your contention is to say that the above words make no meaning I proceed to counter your argument.

1. When I hear the old song "hgam(this being a urdu word it is difficult to bring the exact pronounciation in english) se ab ghabraana kaisa hgam sow baar mila" I say wah. When Jagjitsingh sings "mujhe ithna pyar na karo mein nashe mein hoon" i say again wah wah. Now what does this sound wah mean? Not only me there are many people who use this word when they listen to a beautaiful piece of lyric set to nice music.

2. In English we use the term lo (not lol used in conversation on the net and in sms) like when we say "Lo and behold! it was all light when God said Edison".

3. In Tamil we use ஐயோ, அடடா, சபாஷ் etc in conversation to express a certain feeling.

The feeling expressed will be understood only when you read this Lo, wah, ஐயோ etc in a context. If you look at these words in isolation they are all meaningless by themselves. Similarly the haa vu, haa vu, bham bham etc are expressions of exclamation. They are to be read in the context as words of exclamation. This is what I learnt from a sanskrit/vedic scholar about haa vu haa vu etc., Now please let me know whether this makes sense to you.

Cheers.

Dear Shri Raju,

Words like वाह्, ஐயோ, சபாஷ், அடடா, lo, etc., are not repeated so many times to express any kind of sentiment. Again, such exclamations are not used both before and after a statement, as we see here.
I am, therefore, sorry to say that the clarifications you have given above do not seem to explain rationally, what is possibly the role of the words habu, bham, vaa, etc., in the above portion of the sāmaveda āraṇyaka.

I have also so far not come across any interpretations giving any rational meaning/s to these words. That is why I feel that these are just sounds used to create certain atmosphere or mood, in a manner very similar to the use of sounds like hrāṃ, hrīṃ, etc., by the mantravaadins.

Since the decipherable portions of the above are already given in other treatises (brahmajajñānaṃ prathamaṃ purastāt, etc.) I even now hold that the sounds like habu, bham, vaa, etc., were more of the nature of ritualistic mumbo-jumbo. However, if and when I come across any convincing and rational explanation for these sounds, I am open to correction.

Shri Raju,
In post #136, I had given the statement of the puruṣasūktaṃ which clearly states that the three vedas viz., ṛk, sāman and yajus were born (jajñire) from aut of the yajña performed by the devas, ṛśis and sādhyās. You have not given your comments on this. This is also scriptural evidence to show that vedas did not exist prior to this yajña. ṭhe argument that vedas existed but were not brought down to the human level by the Rishis may not also hold good because the same sooktam says that cchandases, vāyu, antarikṣa, dyau, sūrya, everything was born or came into being only as a result of this puruṣamedha. I think therefore, that it will not be possible to argue that vedas are eternal.

There were objections about the use of the word "priestly families" etc. I propose to start a new thread and write down whatever little I have learnt about these aspects.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Prasad,

The main reason why Rama is considered great is because of his behavior. That is why we have Ramayana and Dhasarathayana. My grandmother used to emphasize this when she told us stories from Ramayana.

Rama was the first King to practice Eka Patni Vrata. He broke away from the prevailing social norms. He is respected for that.

He treated Guha a fisherman as his equal which was against the prevailing social norm.

His treatment of Sabari shows Compassion and understanding which were rare then.

His friendship with hanuman and Sugriva shows the he was not swayed by race.

Ramayana can teach morals. But when we should not be swayed by the fact that we consider Rama as an Avathara. A sweeping statement the "Rama is God and he can do no wrong." will not help us with today's children. This is what is done by our Katha Kalakshepam people. Then the kathakalakshepam person does not have to answer answers. many a time people come back with more doubts after a kathakalakshepam.

I am not against kathakalakshepam. I love them. But their purpose is to increase Bhakti and not to explain the epics/Puranas.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Dear Sarmah,

This is what you asked:


Using my right to intervene I try to give an answer to your question presuming that it is addressed in general to the forum with real interest in getting an answer.

The pre-requisites and proper conditions are these:

நல்ல புத்திசாலியாக நல்லாரோடு இணங்குமவனாக, நல்ல ஒழுக்கம் உடையவனாக,நல்லவற்றை அறிய விரும்புமவனாக, குருவுக்கு பணிந்திருப்பவனாக, துரஹங்காரமற்றவனாக, ஆசார்யனை அடிபணிந்திருப்பவனாக, தன் சந்தேகங்களை ஆசார்யனிடம் கேட்டுத்தெளிவு பெறுமவனாக,மனதையும் இந்திரியங்களையும் அடக்கியவனாக, பொறாமை சற்றுமின்றி ஆசார்யனைச்சரணடைந்தவனாக, சாஸ்த்திரங்களில் நம்பிக்கை உள்ளவனாக, பலவிதங்களிலும் பரீக்ஷிக்கப்பட்டவனாக, நன்றியுள்ளவனாக இருக்கும் சிஷ்யனுக்கு ஆசாரியன் தத்துவங்களை கற்பிக்கக் கடவன்.

Similarly the student also is given the right to choose an Acharyan:

நல்ல ஆசார்ய பரம்பரையில் கற்று வந்தவனும், புத்தி சஞ்சலமற்றவனும், எவ்விதக்குறையும் இல்லாதவனும், வேதாந்த சாஸ்த்திரம் பயின்று அதன் பொருளாகிய ப்ரஹ்மத்தினிடத்தில் நிலை பெற்றவனும், சத்துவ குனம் படைத்தவனும்,சத்திய வாதியும், காலத்துக்கேற்ற பெரியோரொப்பிய ஒழுக்கம் உடையவனும், பெருமை, பொறாமை முதலிய துர்க்குணங்கள் கழிந்தவனும், புலனடக்கம் செய்தவனும்,தொடர்ந்து உதவுகிறவனும், தயாளுவும், தவற்றைக்கண்டிப்பவனும் தன்னோடு பிறர் நலத்தையும் நாடுபவனும் ஆன ஆசார்யனைச் சிஷ்யன் தேர்ந்தெடுக்கவேண்டும்.

About the relationship between the two this is said:

உள் இருளைக் கடிவதனாலும், பாவங்களை விலக்குவதாலும், சிஷ்யனைத்தன்னைப்போல் ஆக்கும் உதார குணத்தாலும், கர்மமடியாக வந்த ப்ராஹ்மணாதி ஜன்மங்களைப் போக்கும் உயர்ந்த ஜ்னான ஜன்மத்தை தரும் பெருமையினாலும், குளிரக்கடாக்ஷிப்பதாலும்,தங்கு தடையின்றி கருணை கூர்வதாலும், என்றும் தனக்கு ஸ்வாமியாதலாலும், ஆசார்யனை சிஷ்யன் என்றும் கைம்ம்மாறு கருதாமல் கடவுளைப்போலே வழிபடுதல் தகும்.

Original in Sanskrit-Nyaaya vimsathi-by Swami Desikan.

I am proud to be a Shaktha.

My Guru was a Sannyasi of the Saraswathi order of Dasanami Sampradhaya. He was considered an expert in Vedas, Tantras and Sri Vidya in particular. He was an Avadhuta. He was running two Veda Patasalas.

He accepted me as a Shishya.

Though my Guru was well very well known in Tamil Nadu and had lakhs of followers, he never considered himself to be GOD. He never stopped us from asking questions.

You do not accept the Dasanami sampradhya of sannyasa order, Smarthas and Sakthas. You do not accept my Guru though he did have a number of Sri Vaishnava followers.

But then what you are saying is that I should become a Sri Vaishnava and become a Shishya under a Vaishnava Acharya. You have quoted a Sri Vaishnava text.

I can not possibly do that nor can the members of this forum. Asking one to change his religion is too heavy a price to pay for getting an answer in the forum.

 

[sangom]

Prasad,

The main reason why Rama is considered great is because of his behavior. That is why we have Ramayana and Dhasarathayana. My grandmother used to emphasize this when she told us stories from Ramayana.

Rama was the first King to practice Eka Patni Vrata. He broke away from the prevailing social norms. He is respected for that.

Dear Sir,

Now that Shri Praveen has made ir clear that anyone can comment on any post, I wish to point out that the following sloka exists in Valmiki Ramayana :—

हृष्टाः खलु भविष्यन्ति रामस्य परमाः स्त्रियः |
अप्रहृष्टा भविष्यन्ति स्नुषास्ते भरतक्षये || २-८-१२

(Rama's wives will get delighted. Your daughters-in-law will be unhappy because of Bharata's waning position.)

These are Manthara's words to Kaikeyi. The use of the plural स्त्रियः, shows clearly that Rama had more than one wife even at that time, just as Bharata too had. But, Rama's life became such that for 14 years he had vanavaasa and so we do not hear anything about his other wives. In those days, these other wives or स्त्रियः, did not count for much, and had only a secondary role as compared to the Pattamahishi/s or consecrated regal queens. That is why we hear only about the three queens of dasaratha though he had many more स्त्रियः, as brought out in the following verse:

अर्ध सप्त शताः ताः तु प्रमदाः ताम्र लोचनाः |
कौसल्याम् परिवार्य अथ शनैः जग्मुर् धृत व्रताः || २-३४-१३

 

[prasad1]

I am not against kathakalakshepam. I love them. But their purpose is to increase Bhakti and not to explain the epics/Puranas.

Sir,
I have no argument with you. I think we can find good values in almost any book or Gurus or swamis teachings.
I try to find the values in every thing. I too believe that elevating Avatars to Brahman level is over the top.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sir,

Now that Shri Praveen has made ir clear that anyone can comment on any post, I wish to point out that the following sloka exists in Valmiki Ramayana :—

हृष्टाः खलु भविष्यन्ति रामस्य परमाः स्त्रियः |
अप्रहृष्टा भविष्यन्ति स्नुषास्ते भरतक्षये || २-८-१२

(Rama's wives will get delighted. Your daughters-in-law will be unhappy because of Bharata's waning position.)

These are Manthara's words to Kaikeyi. The use of the plural स्त्रियः, shows clearly that Rama had more than one wife even at that time, just as Bharata too had. But, Rama's life became such that for 14 years he had vanavaasa and so we do not hear anything about his other wives. In those days, these other wives or स्त्रियः, did not count for much, and had only a secondary role as compared to the Pattamahishi/s or consecrated regal queens. That is why we hear only about the three queens of dasaratha though he had many more स्त्रियः, as brought out in the following verse:

अर्ध सप्त शताः ताः तु प्रमदाः ताम्र लोचनाः |
कौसल्याम् परिवार्य अथ शनैः जग्मुर् धृत व्रताः || २-३४-१३

That might be true, I will take your word for it.
But Rama could not keep his wife happy ever. My mother used to say that it is a curse to be named Sita. She even used to object to Sita Kalyanam being sung in wedding, instead she would encourage Gauri Kalyanam.
So I do not know what values we need to derive from Ramayana about how to lead a married life.

 

[ozone]

These are Manthara's words to Kaikeyi. The use of the plural स्त्रियः, shows clearly that Rama had more than one wife even at that time, just as Bharata too had.

Manthara is talking about the possibility of the future. Everything she said to poison Kaikeyi were about what could be in store.
Manthara would have had no clue that Rama will remain a eka patni. That statement alone cannot be attributed to determine the clarity in the claim.

 

[prasad1]

Manthara is talking about the possibility of the future. Everything she said to poison Kaikeyi were about what could be in store.
Manthara would have had no clue that Rama will remain a eka patni. That statement alone cannot be attributed to determine the clarity in the claim.

[/COLOR]

Mr. Ozone
Please read my post
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ching-morals-ramayana-kids-20.html#post172049
I do not know the intent of an author or the actor. The morality is to be derived from expressed opinion alone.

 

[sangom]

My point is that all these display of skills in his posts do not reveal real scholarship in my opinion. He may be scholarly but his posts that I have come across do not reflect it. He may not have claimed he is a scholar just like I never did.

Shri tks sir,

I am not coming into this forum either to display what skills I have nor to earn approbation as a scholar. I am an ordinary hoi polloi, tabra, if I may say so, and my eagerness to learn and know as much about our Hindu religion, has convinced me that this religion has very weak foundations and that this religion, just like the proverbial onion, if peeled with the knife of reason, ultimately there will be nothing. My only agenda if there is one, is to record my findings, observations and conclusions whenever there is a relevant thread or post by some one and that's the end of it. I am not interested in getting "likes" nor do I think many people will be convinced by whatever opinions I express here. But I do feel sanguine that our future generation of youngsters may be more impressed by my 'true-to-life' opinions (even though they sound blasphemous here and now) and if some one happens to stumble upon these posts he/she may be encouraged to continue to think independently and come to his/her own conclusions after learning and understanding the scriptures with whatever skills, intelligence and infrastructure he/she may have, and that they will not be at the mercy of some unspecified 'lot of infrastructures' and under the compulsion of searching for 'fundas' and 'genuine scholaship' and similar such rhetorical requirements.

Why pick on Sri Sangom's post since I actually like his style of measured arrogance if I can say that. I do not pick him because he expresses views that borders on indecency sometimes in my judgement.He is entitled to his opinion like we all are.

While thanking you sincerely for your good words, let me inform one and all of the readers of this Forum, with all humility that I do not have, nor intend to have, any arrogance because my somewhat long journey through the humdrum of a very ordinary life, as also my quest to understand the basic building blocks of our religion, have convinced me that there is nothing in this world about which one can/should feel arrogant. Like the devil quoting the scripture (at least some of you may feel so) may I echo the popular sloka with a slight alteration:
संप्राप्ते सन्निहिते काले नहि नहि रक्षति मत विभ्रान्ति:| (saṃprāpte sannihite kāle nahi nahi rakṣati mata vibhrānti When the appointed time comes, religious zealotry will not save anyone.

The reason is because by his style of being careful with references in Sanskrit supported by accurate English rendering he provides a casual reader a view that he is scholarly which helps to pass along vile interpretations that are downright incorrect.

Once we strip away the notion that precision in writing a verse in a post does not translate to precision in one's understanding or their interpretation then their view becomes nothing special. We will not react as much.


Let us say we have an audience who is semi literate in mathematics but they admire that the subject is complex. It will be as if I come and draw a lot equations to gain some credibility but express ideas that are complete nonsense.

For some time now, I have been suspecting that this might be at the root of all the perceived intolerance to any non-conformist views expressed here. I must thank you, first of all, for spelling out this fear in such clear and simple words, and then ask all the readers of this forum as to why such a fear arises if the hindu religion is really built upon very firm and logically unassailable foundations? The existence of this fear, this suspicion, that a rational opinion about some part/s of our scriptures is likely to convince readers about the hollowness of the conformist, orthodox interpretations, reveals the true state of affairs. In fact, when I read your post citing "a lot more infrastucture" and so on, I was reminded of the adage, ஆடத் தெரியாத ***யாளுக்கு தெருவு கோணல் (āṭat teriyāta ***yāḷukku teruvu koṇal) meaning, a bad workman finds fault with his tools!

To take a person of Sri Sangom's earned stature it was necessary to come across as arrogant in my post though I had not consciously intended that way while writing post #154.

I don't think I have earned any stature either within this forum or outside, in the wide world. I am poignantly aware that I am just one among the millions/billions of run-of-the mill tabras, but one who perhaps failed to keep up his steps with the rest of the parade.

 

[sangom]

Manthara is talking about the possibility of the future. Everything she said to poison Kaikeyi were about what could be in store.
Manthara would have had no clue that Rama will remain a eka patni. That statement alone cannot be attributed to determine the clarity in the claim.

[/COLOR]

Dear Shri ozone,

What you say is what commentators have used to tide over the perceived anomalous situation. But the future which Manthara talks about is not the distant future, but only the immediate future after Rama is anointed on the ensuing Pushyami star, as may be seen from the 3 verses just preceding the one I quoted:

सुभगा खलु कौसल्या यस्याः पुत्रोऽभिषेक्ष्यते |
यौवराज्येन महता श्वः पुष्येण द्विजोत्तमैः || २-८-९
Kausalya is very fortunate. Brahmans are going to anoint her son for the great princely kingdom tomorrow on the day of Pushyami star.

प्राप्तां सुमहतीं प्रीतिं प्रतीतां तां हतद्विषम् |
उपस्थास्यसि कौसल्यां दासीवत्त्वं कृताञ्जलिः || २-८-१०
With folded arms, as a maid-servant, you have to serve that Kausalya who having reached great prosperity, in the height of joy, will dispose of her adversaries (in the person of Bharata and yourself).

एवम् चेत्त्वं सहास्माभिस्तस्याः प्रेष्य भविष्यसि |
पुत्रश्च तव रामस्य प्रेष्यभावं गमिष्यति || २-८-११
Thus, if you become Kausalya's servant-maid along with us, your son Bharata will be Rama's attendant.

(source :Valmiki Ramayana - Ayodhya Kanda - Sarga 8)

I, therefore, do not consider the explanation given by you as sufficient. IMO, vaalmeeki originally did not write about a Rama who vowed on strict monogamy, but the subsequent editors who reworked the original did a shabby job and omitted to alter/delete this sloka. There are many more such examples in VR if only you are open to an unbiased reading. I shall give some examples tomorrow. Feeling tired today pl.

 

[tks]

Sri Sharmah - Your post #181 and #162: I was not ignoring your question, I never got around to responding. I quickly catch up on few threads when I have time and respond to one or two. Also I was not sure if your question was a rhetorical one or one seeking explanation of what I had written. Prerequisites for any study depends on an individual, their background and their maturity level based on life experiences.


Sri Raju in post #188 has given a good summary in my view which can be abstracted and applied without changing any religious traditions.


Patanjali teaches us activities that can help with daily preparations. I have found Daily meditation for at least 15 to 20 minutes, and similar effort at doing Pranayama and some Yoga postures to be helpful.


A kind attitude towards all beings is a learned behaviour that helps in our growth. This does not mean being weak or being a push over in our interaction with others. Treating others so there is minimal injury, and applying the so called golden rule in our relationship with others helps us with our growth.


Developing a right attitude towards daily activities with clarity along the lines of what B.Gita teaches is a hard thing to learn but is possible with the help of a right teacher.


Understanding what Dharma is in our lives (and this has little to do with just conducting some rituals) and leading a conflict free life by being natually aligned with Dharma is needed for growth.


I use the term universal principles to be equivalent to universal Dharma that exists and acts on regardless of our disposition towards them.


If one wants to understand our scriptures - especially the verses in certin Upanishads or B.Gita - in a way that is applicable to our lives today then one needs to hone one's ability to abstract the literal translations.


Questioning anything and everything is key and any teacher that encourages that and is able to provide satisfactory answer is a great teacher.




The above list is not complete but I wanted to give a brief response. My apologoes for not having responded sooner to a direct request for a reply.